Classic & Vintage - early/mid 70's Colnago help

Well here is another thread to add to the numerous Colnago threads lately. Here is a Colnago I picked up this week. It is decal-less which kind of sucks, and it does need some work. I bought it from someone that was selling it for the original owner so I don't know any real history of it. Things I do know: Pat 72 NR rear derailleur, full Nuovo Record group, date code on non-drive side arm is '73, hubs are high flange with the flat QR skewers (laced to Wolber 700c clinchers), hoods are toast, and the previous owner didn't like decals or real bar tape (foam on a Colnago!!)

I am going to guess 73/74 based on the derailleur code and the date code on the arm, but I of course defer to the masters here. Also, what model could it be? Super? Mexico?

Now for the required pictures:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2299/2053631219_f294be03b9_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2305/2054413700_d91b969981_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2266/2053629993_3d179b299e_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2028/2053629645_e411593c4e_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2313/2054414008_d440ee199d_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2229/2054414332_8b6ab1dcb4_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2210/2053631469_2082f7520c_o.jpg

looks like a super (mexico model wasn't till later).... nice bike- shame about the decals but there ya go- you could probably get some *nearly* correct (ie-mid to late 70's) decals for her, if the missing logos are an issue

fwiw, the front derailleur appears to be post cpsc

This may sound stupid - but - I'd get on ebay and look up Cyclemondo and buy a set of Molteni decals to attach to the frame. I would just clean the frame then affix the decals. If there was a paint scrape in the paint, I would try to 'scrap' the decal to match - trying to achieve an original look.

I've always wanted a Colnago/Merckx/Molteni - I think your frame and groupset (I'd do a bit of drilling of the parts to match a Merckx bike) is perfect for the project.

Yellow Jersey has factory Colnago decals for that bike. I have a set for my Mexico.

Picchio Special hasn't weighed in on this one yet, but it looks to me from what I've learned you have a late '70's Colnago Super/Mexico.

Edit: After looking over the first photo, and seeing the clamps on the top tube instead of braze-ons, it does appear to be an earlier model. The COLNAGO in the fork crown throws me though. I'm sure the experts will weigh in soon...

Do you have clubs cut into both head lugs or one? That is the older style bottom bracket cutout, and the lack of top tube guides say Ernesto...if it is an early 70's, he was still running the torch, and that makes this a real find. I'm with Gary - unless the paint is crap, make it a Molteni.

Do you have clubs cut into both head lugs or one? That is the older style bottom bracket cutout, and the lack of top tube guides say Ernesto...if it is an early 70's, he was still running the torch, and that makes this a real find. I'm with Gary - unless the paint is crap, make it a Molteni.

The club cut out is only in the bottom lug of the headtube, and on the inner (wheel side) of the fork up near the crown.

It has short dropouts, so I would guess mid 70's at the earliest.

It has short dropouts, so I would guess mid 70's at the earliest.
I'd guess even later, plus the braze-on shifters push it into "late" territory, but it does have some features of an earlier vintage, too. Could be a "transition" or could be an early model that's had some torch work(?). Obviously I'm not a 'Nago expert, but based on observations of other Italian marques, it's "different".

Supposedly the lettering in the fork crown indicates a newer model as well, but maybe it's a replacement, maybe the braze-ons were removed on the top tube... the clover (club) cutout on the bottom bracket matches my Mexico, as do the lugs. Mine's from somewhere between 1975 and 1980. Mine also has a '77' stamped into the drive side rear dropout. You may want to check that as well.

I'm not a colnago expert but I know a thing or two about campy. The components so far have it dated around 73, but lets look closer. One thing missing that would have help is the front derailleur, looks like we have a GS replacement here (or was it original!?). Lets have a close up of the brakes? do the center bolts say patent or brev. camp? Actually I think I can see the spooned QR lever on the front caliper making them post CPSC, unless they are replacements and the center bolt will determine that. You can take the seatpost out too, does it have a min. insertion line? I think that was added around '74... so it's starting to look like a mixed bag group. That might mean the bike is a bit later build up from what have you parts and not a complete group from a single year. If we assume the components are original that dates the bike about '78 or later.

Edit: what about the bars and stem? Cinelli? old logo or new?

It is earlier than mine, which I guess to be 79-80. The pre-75 ones had clubs in both front lugs. That, plus the fork that matches mine, would make me guess 75-78. There is a bunch of stuff in the archives about early Colnagos at Classic Rendezvous. That range makes it less likely that it is an Ernesto Colnago, but still very possible. Unfortunately, there's no way of telling that I know. Still gonna be an excellent ride.

Okay, I pulled the seatpost out and it does not have the minimum insertion line. Both f/r brakes have the spooned q/r lever and they say "Patent" across the center bolt (where the springs come out). My '73 P-13 Paramount brakes have the same Patent marking, but they have the flat q/r lever. The Cinelli bar and stem are new logo so I am guessing later than the bike (when did Cinelli change the logos on the bars/stems?). I also checked the pedals. They don't have the extra strap loop, but the dust caps are steel and not the later plastic covers. I haven't taken either hub apart to see what code is stamped on the locknut, but that is next on my agenda.

I think that Cinelli changed out from the Knight's crest in 1978...I think that there are enough smish-smash parts that they probably aren't totally reliable as to when the bike was built...although there's enough info to support 1978 as a date of production. The serial number's stamped on the rear dropout, probably. Just for my curiosity, what is it?

The serial number's stamped on the rear dropout, probably. Just for my curiosity, what is it?

It was hard to read because the q/r skewers have dug into the droupouts, but I think it reads 32.

Edit: I thought it was 38, but I believe it to be 32.

Here's a link on Cinelli bars and stems:
http://www.43bikes.com/cinelli-bars-stems.html

Is there anyway you can talk to the original owner?

The paint, if original, looks to be in fabulous condition. I would think that the frame/fork combo would bring over $600 on eBay, if presented well, even without the decals.

that is an interesting number. The later ones all have Axxx where A is alpha, x is numeric. I have never figured out what the alpha means, although someone thought it indicated frames from particular subcontractors. So, no alpha, no subcontractor? maybe...

Would be very cool it it's actually an Ernesto Colnago!

I've looked at a lot of Colnagos, and I don't think I've ever seen one in the, er, flesh.

I was just looking at Ray Dobbins' site at his '72 Colnago Super and his has 29 stamped on the rear drive side dropout and also on the fork. I will pull the fork on mine and see if it has a # stamped into it. If it does that would at least tell me the fork is original to the frame. Clicky to his as received photos of it (http://www.raydobbins.com/pantografata/as_received/as_received.htm)

Edit: I pulled the fork and the fork is stamped 32. I looked at the dropout stamp and instead I misread the last digit and I believe it is also stamped 32 so the fork is original to the frame!

I think that the frame looks repainted. I mean there are no traces of paint in the cut outs or anything so it is likely that a lot of parts were replaced at that time... who really knows but it seems the RD, seatpost and cranks may be original, given the new serial number info. I have to admit I lost interest in colnagos because everyone drooled over them and I never thought much of the 80s bike, but the early 70s bikes make me drool. Marinonis remind me of early colnagos...
http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/d/241616-2/1981+Pista+Special+by+SBR+%233.jpg

Just recently I was going thru the archives over on the CR list and found a reference to dating older Colnagos. I saved it on my drive at work and will post it up later.

i remember that thread, only vaguely. That would be invaluable to the OP...

Taken from the archives at CR, with credits to Eric Elman as noted...moderators, if inappropriate, feel free to mod/delete.

Outlined below is the most comprehensive (to date) Colnago Super timeline
beginning in ~1969 and going up through the mid/late 70's. There are still
numerous blanks and some conflicting thoughts - all are presented below.
I've done the best I could based on all the snippets of info provided so
please, no flames if you disagree or if I got something wrong; a simple note
to me with your info will get it added/included to the info below. I will
update the list and send out as appropriate. Also, do keep in mind that
"dates" are subject to variation, no one believes that Colnago made these
changes on January 1st of each new year and therefore use them as a guide to
the year of manufacture or availability.

Keep in mind that this is not definitive and is based solely on the inputs
from numerous list members with varying degrees of experience and/or
ownership (original owner vs. subsequent owner, restorers, and enthusiasts
like me that have been looking at them for years but still await the right
one to come along).

A few CR members have wrote to advise that the standard production bikes
were fairly consistent but that Colnago's could be special-ordered at any
time and thus could include any number of details that might seem
atypical... graphics, custom paint, chrome, etc.

Lugs:
1969: Cutouts in all 3 lugs, all clubs are the same size. Note however that
one experienced member recalls differently "I've never seen a Super with
cutouts all the same size. That would be physically impossible anyway,
based on the sizes of the lug tangs."
1970: Cutouts in all 3 lugs, but club in bottom head lug is now larger than
the other lugs.
1971: Cutouts in all 3 lugs, but club in bottom head lug is now larger than
the other lugs.
1972: 3 lugs cutout, all same size.
1973: 3 lugs cutout, all same size. There is general consensus on this too
but note again that an experienced member believes the single cut-out came
earlier; may have been as early as 1972.
1974: Cutout in bottom headlug only.
1975: Cutout in bottom headlug only.
General comments: the "fluffier/bulbous" club cutouts appear on the earlier
bikes. The smaller/leaner cutouts began to show up, give or take, sometime
after 1975.

Fork Crown:
1969: Two holes in each side of crown, crown itself is a sand cast type
crown. Some may also have Vagner forged crown, two holes in sides.
1970: First use of investment cast semi-sloping crown, two holes in each
side.
1971: IC crown, two holes in each side of crown
1972: IC crown, two holes in sides and club in top of each side of crown for
the first time.
1973: IC crown, club on top of each side of crown.
1974: IC crown, club in top of each side of crown.
1975: IC crown, club and "COLNAGO" on top of each side of crown. There were
numerous contributions supporting this but again, a experienced member took
the time to write "this is too early for the *Colnago* in the crown. I
think that came in by 1977 or so. The first generation Mexico's had no
"Colnago" in the crown, and their first year was 1975...earliest possible
year for the Colnago stamp in the crown would be 1976, but I'm betting it
was later than that.

Fork Tangs:
1969: Fork tangs are blank.
1970: Fork tang can be blank and a wide tang as opposed to the typical
narrower ones.
1971: Often blank narrow tangs.
1972: Narrow tangs with two holes, upper hole larger than lower hole.
1973: Some narrow tangs with two holes but now usually with club in them.
1974: Tangs with clubs.
1975: Tangs with clubs

Seat Stay Caps:
Years??: Plain fluted, ??" length
Years??: Plain fluted, ??" length (I think the length changed)
Years:??: Fluted with "COLNAGO" cast along the flute length.

Rear Brake Bridge:
Years??: Round tube w/brazed on washer (facing the brake caliper),
reinforced at seat stays, for nutted brake bolts.
Years??: Round with square/cube area that accepts recessed brake bolt, (did
this have a club in the top?).

Bottom Bracket:
1969: Circular drilled holes pattern in BB shell.
1970: Club cutout in BB shell.
1972: Club cutout in BB shell.
1973: Club cutout in BB shell.
1974: Club cutout in BB shell.
1975: Club cutout in BB shell.

Drop-out's:
1974/75: Sometime between '74 & '75 there should be a change from long
Campag drop-outs to the shorter ones.

Braze On's:
197? & earlier: none except chain stay derailleur cable stop
197? - 197?: Above plus over BB cable guides
197? - 197?: Above plus shift lever mounts
197? - 197?: Above plus one set DT water bottle mounts
19?? - 19??: Above plus ST water bottle mounts
1976/77: Above plus first appearance of two TT brake cable guides (note that
the "Colnago" cast into the fork crowns definitely happened before the
addition of TT brake cable braze-ons).

Decals:
1968/69: The playing-card-style decals appeared on frames imported to North
America in 1968 or 1969.
1969: Playing card graphics.
1970: Playing card decals?
1971: Playing card graphics?
1972: Graphics change, now just Colnago on DT and first appearance of head
decal just a club with Colnago underneath.
1973: First appearance of "wreath" decal on seat tube, between the bands.
1975: Another graphics change?
1977/78: Another graphics change?

Chrome:
Generally the Colnago crowns are chromed.
General comments: Sometimes the dropouts are chromed on these early bikes.
This varies. Head-lugs were chromed sometimes also, nearly always on show
bikes..but not confined to them.

Known Original Standard Colors:
1972/73: Turquoise/baby blue
Early/mid 70's: Candy green, candy red, candy blue, Molteni orange, yellow,
mauve metallic, black, silver, white, pearl white, electric blue,
salmon-metallic (similar to Cinelli Rose, but lighter), light purple
metallic.
General comments: some wrote to advise you could get a Colnago painted
nearly any color you can imagine.

Known variations:
With Colnago in the earlier years there are a few slight variations
possible, mainly in the fork tangs. One list member has a '74 with no fork
tangs at all. He also had a '74 that had a club in the
bottom headlug and the SEAT lug only, none in top headlug (he suspects a
stray leftover cutout seat lug). Another member also knows of an original
'72 track bike with road blades in a Vagner crown and no chrome. Finally
two list members have/had ~1975 frames where the crowns were painted, not
chromed.

Mexico notes:
Early first-generation Mexico's looked just like older Supers, except for
the thinner tubing.


Respectfully submitted by Eric Elman, Somers, CT

well, there ya go. That'd be, by all evidence, not earlier than 1975 and not later than about 1977. In the early days, like Masi, stock moved through the shop on demand, not as driven by model year as now. The frame may have been partially assembled much earlier than it was finished and sold.

The frame may have been partially assembled much earlier than it was finished and sold.

or more likely, it was originally purchased as a frameset and primarily built up from the components he could transfer from his previous bike.

Colnago decals of that vintage didn't stick all that well, and weren't clearcoated. Could be the original owner stripped them off. The decals on my Mexico have been steadily peeling off.

Edit: the decal set available thru yellow jersey, on one sheet is enough to do like 3 bikes...supers, mexicos, and the early style. It seems expansive but you can use what you need and sell off what you don't.

or more likely, it was originally purchased as a frameset and primarily built up from the components he could transfer from his previous bike.

No...I mean that the frame itself could have been partially assembled and stockpiled at the factory until orders led to final assembly...Masi and the early Trek operation (and probably lots of others) worked like this. So you sometimes see an older frameset with a sale date significantly after it was manufactured.

I dunno. With the mix of parts I would think that the original owner piecemealed the bike together.

I have seen at least one other bike in the original owners collection, and it would seem that there was something about decals that he didn't like. In other words, his other bike was totally lacking in a decal of any sort. I know he has another bike that may become available soon. I'd be interested to know if it has a decal on it. If I was a gambler (and I'm not), I'd bet that it is 'clean' as well.

His other bike (that I've seen), was an eclectic mix of parts that worked well together.

IE: Campy Record hubs laced to 27" Weinmann eyeleted alloy touring rims, with a Sugino AT Triple and Suntour Mountech dérailleurs. All on a very nice 531 custom touring frame. He did leave the tubing decal on that one, but no others. Oh, yeah, foam grips on the Cinelli bars, attached to a Cinelli stem panto'ed with a different manufacturer!

Go figure.

An update to the original Colnago dating. This is the one I found a few weeks ago...

COLNAGO DATING

To the subject of clubs on decals and clubs cut into lugs...

Ernesto Colnago has stated that the inspiration for changing his logo
to the Ace of Clubs was the result of Michele Dancelli winning the
'70 Milano-San Remo for Molteni while riding a Colnago. "La
Primavera" (the spring) is the nickname for Milan-San Remo and the
Ace of Clubs represents the spring flowers.

Steven Maasland previously elaborated about the club/flower tie in:
"The 'asso di fiore' is correctly translated as 'ace of clubs',
however there is also a double entendre in Italian that is lost here
as 'Fiore' is also 'flower', the symbol of the San Remo area. After
the San Remo race win, Colnago spoke to the very well-known Italian
sports reporter, Bruno Raschi, who was preparing his race report.
He came up with the saying that the 'in fiore' bike won the race.
This was a play on the fact that the race known for the 'riviera dei
fiori' (flower coast) as well as 'in fiore' (flowering or blooming).
That particular race win was very important for Italian cycling
because it was the first San Remo race won by an Italian in many
years, hence the 'flowering' part in the 'flower' race."

Okay, so that would explain the "playing card" club logo decals used
later in 1970, but what about Colnagos built before that date with
the same club shape cut in the lugs?

It has been mentioned before that the club cut in the lugs of the
Colnago Super was a tribute to Gloria where Ernesto Colnago first
apprenticed at 13 years of age and worked for almost a decade.
Gloria used a large lily at the sides of the lugs and bottom bracket;
the three petals of the club echo the three petals of the lily.

Here's the latest version of the frame dating (some dates plus or
minus a year):

=====================================
Colnago Super Frame Dating (10.14.07)
=====================================

1968 -- First Super(?)
1968 -- Fork crown (sand cast) with two holes in each side
1968 -- Fork tangs wide, no cutouts
1968 -- Club cutouts in all three lugs
1968 -- Bottom bracket shell with drilled holes (eight in circle plus
one in center)
----
1970 -- Fork crown (investment cast semi-sloping) with two holes in
each side
1970 -- "Playing card" club decal graphics (inspired by 1970 Milano-
San Remo victory)
----
1971 -- Fork crown with clubs in top and two holes in each side
1971 -- Fork tangs narrow, no cutouts (or rarely no tangs)
1971 -- Club cutouts in all three lugs but club in lower head lug is
now larger
1971 -- Bottom bracket shell with club cutout
----
1972 -- Club/COLNAGO decal on head tube/seat tube (two seat tube
Worlds bands) and COLNAGO on down tube
1972 -- Fork tangs with two holes (or very rarely three holes tangs
or no tangs)
1972 -- Cable guide braze-ons top of bottom bracket shell
1972 -- Water bottle braze-ons on downtube
----
1973 -- Wreath seat tube decal with Worlds band at top and bottom
1973 -- Fork crown with clubs on top but no holes in each side
1973 -- Fork tangs with club cutouts (or rarely two hole tangs or no
tangs)
1973 -- Club cutout in lower head lug only
----
1974 -- Shifter braze-ons on down tube (option before this)
----
1975 -- Vertical COLNAGO seat tube decal with diagonal Worlds band at
top
----
1976 -- Fork crown with COLNAGO added to clubs on top
1976 -- Short Campagnolo or COLNAGO dropouts
----
1977 -- Top tube cable guide braze-ons (option before this)
----
1978 -- Fork crown for recessed brake bolt with shallow triangles cut
into back
1978 -- Brake bridge for recessed brake bolt
----
1980 -- Fluted seat stay caps engraved COLNAGO and straight seat
stays (no longer biconical)
1980 -- Brake bridge with cast square boss for recessed brake bolt
----
1981 -- Chain stay bridge is small spool shape (no longer tube)
----
1982 -- Chain stays stamped COLNAGO on sides
1982 -- Cable routing on underside of bottom bracket
----
1983 -- Aerodynamic fork crown

NOTE:
Dates are plus or minus one year; changes in frame details might have
occurred the end of one year or the beginning of the next for example
or may have been offered as an option before becoming standard.
Paint schemes, panels, decals and chrome varied according to how
importers spec'd their frames, so this all varied considerably and
there are lots of anomalies. ALL CORRECTIONS WELCOMED AND ENCOURAGED!

Chuck Schmidt
South Pasadena
California
USA

1982 - chain stays stamped Colnago...that would make mine an 82. I suppose that would still work for discussion at CR, though.

nice find.
is that a viner track bike in the background?

My guesstimate is 1976-1977. Based on the following.

Your fork crown doesn't have the triangular cutouts on the backside. No top tube braze-ons, short dropouts, fork crown and rear brake bridge aren't setup for recessed hardware.

nice find.
is that a viner track bike in the background?

Don't know where redxj has been, but yes, that is a Viner track bike.

He rides it a lot in alleycats around Ann Arbor, and just tooling around.

nice find.
is that a viner track bike in the background?

Just like OFG mention yes that is a Viner track bike. I have it up on Velospace (and my Flickr maybe), but it is way different that those pics. Here is a recent picture taken of it today (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2391/2060847719_75f36d7da0.jpg). That isn't the completely normal setup as I robbed it of its bars/stem and the pedals. I just threw the 3T stem and risers on it temporarily.

As to the original thread. THANK YOU EVERYONE for the help in figuring this bike out. This new information it might be a little later than I originally thought. The main indicators of the frame are the short Campagnolo dropouts, single Clover cutout in lower head tube, Colnago and clover on the fork crown, and the clover cutout in the fork tangs. In the first Colnago history lesson posted I read through that thinking 74/75. But, given the second update and me reading through the first a little better I will agree with satbuilder and say 76/77.

Thanks again!

My guesstimate is 1976-1977. Based on the following.

Your fork crown doesn't have the triangular cutouts on the backside. No top tube braze-ons, short dropouts, fork crown and rear brake bridge aren't setup for recessed hardware.

Well done. Keep in mind that those time lines are works in progress.

The question now, is what will you do with it? Or have you already sold it?

I would imagine that you've had dozens of Colnago aficionados beating a path to your door.

Just like OFG mention yes that is a Viner track bike. I have it up on Velospace (and my Flickr maybe), but it is way different that those pics. Here is a recent picture taken of it today (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2391/2060847719_75f36d7da0.jpg). That isn't the completely normal setup as I robbed it of its bars/stem and the pedals. I just threw the 3T stem and risers on it temporarily.



Dude, that is a huge frame and you have a ton of post showing, are you liek 7' all legs?

he said he weighs 270 i think. i hope he don't break that nice frame...:D

he said he weighs 270 i think. i hope he don't break that nice frame...:D

Correct, 270 down from 290 about a year ago. Nope not 7' tall, 6'6" tall.

Satbuilder,

Thanks +1 re the updated frame dating. Noting the info about "Colnago" stamped on both chainstays and under-BB cable routing I was also able to confirm mine as a 1982. Mine also sports Colnago dropouts with a "33" stamped on the RR. Appreciate the info.

Actually, you can thank Chuck Schmidt, Eric Elman and the folks over at CR who compiled all the data. All I did was a cut and paste.

I had wondered for some time what the actual year of production was for the Mexico I bought several years ago. The data supplied in that timeline, even though it's a work in progress, has narrowed it down for me. Looks like mine's right around 1978.

Kurt

One thing I notice about old Italian bikes you see now days is the brake cables are almost always reversed from what was considered the "Italian" way in the 1970's. That is, the right brake lever operated the front brake not the rear as is the convention today. Take a look at the Masi pic in the link.
http://www.43bikes.com/masi.html

I think this is an Italian bike from the golden era:
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/de_rosa/2.jpg

OR THIS:
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/gios77/1.jpg

look at the guy to his right. is cable is right/front left/rear

look at the guy to his right. is cable is right/front left/rear

Pretty common Euro deal people. Of course, if you're worried about using the brakes ...

oh no. i know. I set up my fix with the front (only) on the right so i can use my left to signal and still be able to brake just in
case. Its pretty convenient that way.