Electric Bikes - Ontario Ministry of Transportation Policy on eScooters

Some time ago I wrote to the Minister of Transportation expressing my concerns about escooters circumventing Highway Traffic Act legislation by pretending they are ebikes. Today I received a reply:

"Thank you for your e-mail to the Honourable Donna Cansfield, concerning electric bicycles (e-bikes) and other types of vehicles. Our new Minister of Transportation, the Honourable Jim Bradley, has asked me to respond on his behalf.

When setting out the conditions for the e-bike pilot, the ministry decided to follow the technical specifications and definition of a power-assisted bicycle as established by Transport Canada. As you have noted, the pilot ends in October 2009. The ministry has made a commitment to evaluate the pilot test before proceeding with final legislation. We are aware of the situation you describe and this will be factored into our evaluation.

E-bikes, like conventional bikes, are designed to be propelled primarily by muscular power. We are aware of some scooters that have had non-operational pedals attached for aesthetic purposes, in an attempt to circumvent the licensing and insurance requirements for scooters. An e-bike must have pedals. If these are removed, it is no longer an e-bike. If stopped by police, a person riding one of these devices without pedals could face charges of having no licence plate and no insurance.

I would like to assure you that the Ministry of Transportation is working with Transport Canada on this matter. It is our intention to have all these issues clarified when reviewing the results of the pilot. Our ministry's website (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/emerging): will also be updated.as appropriate."

Also in that letter I questioned information posted on their web site and later in this forum about drinking and riding an ebike. This was the response:

"I would like to clarify one point. Under the Criminal Code of Canada the definition of a "motor vehicle" would include an e-bike and anyone operating an e-bike while intoxicated could be charged with impaired driving. If convicted, the offender would be subject to Criminal Code penalties, possibly a fine or jail time, and a driving prohibition."

eScooter retailers be aware that these are NOT electric bicycles and should be licensed.

I'm struggling to be polite here. If any citizen of the USA snitches to our government over a similar policy that actually should be stricken as law in the first place, please take refuge in Canada. Most legislation is passed as political favors, i.e. cronyism, and has absolutely NO basis for law in the first place ... I want my freedom and the responsibility that goes with it. If I want to travel 60 mph on an unregistered e-bike, I should have that right to do so. If I want to own a scooter without peddles, I should have that right to do so. FREEDOM MEANS RISK. I don't WANT Canada's nanny state in my country. You inspire me to fight like no tomorrow to DEFEAT the planned North American Union.

I'm struggling to be polite here. If any citizen of the USA snitches to our government over a similar policy that actually should be stricken as law in the first place, please take refuge in Canada. Most legislation is passed as political favors, i.e. cronyism, and has absolutely NO basis for law in the first place ... I want my freedom and the responsibility that goes with it. If I want to travel 60 mph on an unregistered e-bike, I should have that right to do so. If I want to own a scooter without peddles, I should have that right to do so. FREEDOM MEANS RISK. I don't WANT Canada's nanny state in my country. You inspire me to fight like no tomorrow to DEFEAT the planned North American Union.


Stay where you are.

Stay where you are.

Believe me. I plan on it.

http://www.pumpago.com/pictures/images/00838751.jpg

i for one think the e-bike laws in canada are lame.

nothing higher than a 500watt motor

pedals that bottom out at every turn

max speed 31

its no wonder i only saw 2 e-bike this year.

the only people that get any enjoyment out of them are the ones that brake the laws.
in speed anyway ;0

hell most e-bikes sold in canada are slower than a electric wheelchair before any mods lol

Well, the limits aren't rigid. I believe a couple of provinces have their own laws, Alberta for instance has a 750w/35kph limit as opposed to a 500w/32kph limit. Personally, I feel that the speed limit is well set, but there seems to be no decent reason to restrict the wattage, especially when there really isn't any way an average police officer is going to have enough knowledge on the intricacies of your system to figure out how many watts you're using in the first place. Its like having the gun registration bill where they took down the numbers of the guns, but not the names of the people who registered them :) total flop.

On one hand, you have your personal freedom. The freedom to build whatever you please and use it however you like.

On the other hand, you have law. Law can largely be bent to a degree. My e-bike exceeds the Albertan limits on its top outputs by about 6-7kph and 50w. Personally, I don't consider that to be a big deal. However, something that may be difficult for people to understand is that this is a *pilot* introduction, one which is subject to revision. If there are morons riding bikes down the sidewalk at 40kph terrorizing pedestrians, or having their bikes break apart at 55kph in the streets, then I don't expect that there's going to be a lot of leniency when revision comes. I believe some parts of America are also under such a pilot test, keep that in mind as well.

And tpreitzel, sorry, I disagree. There comes a time when the vehicle you are driving exceeds the limits of safe error. Largely, when a bicycle crashes at 30kph its a forgivable and survivable mistake. Largely. People have died at lower speeds. However, when you start moving at the speed of a car something needs to be done for regulation and control of public safety, if only for insurance purposes.
And as for legal purposes (depending on the state you're in) your laws are actually less lenient than those in Alberta:

In the United States of America, Congress has defined a low-speed electric bicycle as any bicycle or tricycle with fully operable pedals, an electric motor not exceeding 750 W of power and a top motor-powered speed not in excess of 20 miles per hour (32 km/h)

These are put in place not for your protection, but for the protection of others. Suicide largely isn't a crime, whereas vehicular manslaughter is. Therefore, guidelines are put in place in order to prevent the latter from happening: You're welcome to ride around on a pink plastic tricycle at 60mph on private property if you wish, but the claim of right to do so on the roads where public interaction occurs, is a fallacy.

As for the validity of the restrictions they've put in place, I suppose thats subjective and relative to the capability of the user/ability of the vehicle: however, we live in a state society where laws are placed to guide the community as a whole rather than conformed to the individual, so whereas its certainly agreeable that some people may be able to handle an e-bike at higher speeds, laws are placed for the majority, and you are unfortunately still subject.

P.S. i'd love to see someone riding a pink plastic tricycle at 60mph.

hell most e-bikes sold in canada are slower than a electric wheelchair before any mods lol

Really? Wanna race your wheelchair against my Bionx?

eBike laws in Canada are very much in line with european regulations for the most part. I got some problems with the power limitations but the speed limit does make some sense.

lol

They are a pain. On the MUP's in Montreal there are leather clad gangs of seniors riding the dern things.These menaces ride 2 wide and with their i pods plugged in they cannot hear my calls of 'a votre gauche" and so I have to get up on the cranks to get by them.

I would like to get an Air Zounds but it wouldn't look cool on my Ultimate.

eScooter retailers be aware that these are NOT electric bicycles and should be licensed.


actually she seems to have said that they are currently considered ebikes, although that may change.

why do you care? are you worried that these things will affect the laws for real e-bikes?

actually she seems to have said that they are currently considered ebikes, although that may change.

why do you care? are you worried that these things will affect the laws for real e-bikes?

When people tell me there are far too many laws and restrictions in Canada, it makes me think about the rights we do have.

We have the right of assembly, the right to walk around without an identity card. We have the right to remain silent, and the right of free speech. We democratically elect governments although often I don’t agree with their policies.

Some people take issue with our laws. You must wear a helmet for instance. With rights come responsibilities. They used to say that it takes a village to raise a child. We don’t live in villages anymore, we live in big cities and often we don’t know our neighbours so we don’t want a stranger raising our children. It’s the same with other common law.

We don’t want to be killed by drunk drivers, so we make it a criminal offence. We want people to survive car crashes so we legislate that you must wear a seat belt. We want to reduce the murder rate so we ban hand guns.

In a laissez-faire (do what you want) society, citizens can do what ever they wish with little government control. You have the right to die by whatever means you wish.

But what happens when a society has decided that each person has dignity, no matter how poor they are or their race? If we as a society are going to care for each other in our new global village, then we need to set some guidelines.

In certain collisions, riding a bicycle without a helmet increases the chance of serious head injury. In a society that has chosen to help the sick and injured no matter their socio-economic status (through free medical care), that society has the right to tell members how to act. You need to wear a helmet; you can’t drink and drive and no, you can’t carry a handgun to the pub.

I’ve made my choice.

I still wonder why anybody cares about e-scooters being sold as "e-bikes" via a technicality in the law. I don't care whether a vehicle looks more like a mountain bike or like a vespa, either one may be a motorcycle or an e-bike. (and I consider something that's ridden at 40+mph but looks like a bicycle to be a motorcycle).

The fact that you can't pedal or can barely pedal your "e-scooter" is not of much consequence if you are comparing it to an e-bike that can easily be used under pedal power but in practice never is used under pedal power.

Hmmm... wonder how all this effects the motorized wheelchair I outfitted with 24v truck batteries and starter motors.

not sure but im willing to try it :)

When people tell me there are far too many laws and restrictions in Canada, it makes me think about the rights we do have.

We have the right of assembly, the right to walk around without an identity card. We have the right to remain silent, and the right of free speech. We democratically elect governments although often I don’t agree with their policies.

Some people take issue with our laws. You must wear a helmet for instance. With rights come responsibilities. They used to say that it takes a village to raise a child. We don’t live in villages anymore, we live in big cities and often we don’t know our neighbours so we don’t want a stranger raising our children. It’s the same with other common law.

We don’t want to be killed by drunk drivers, so we make it a criminal offence. We want people to survive car crashes so we legislate that you must wear a seat belt. We want to reduce the murder rate so we ban hand guns.

In a laissez-faire (do what you want) society, citizens can do what ever they wish with little government control. You have the right to die by whatever means you wish.

But what happens when a society has decided that each person has dignity, no matter how poor they are or their race? If we as a society are going to care for each other in our new global village, then we need to set some guidelines.

In certain collisions, riding a bicycle without a helmet increases the chance of serious head injury. In a society that has chosen to help the sick and injured no matter their socio-economic status (through free medical care), that society has the right to tell members how to act. You need to wear a helmet; you can’t drink and drive and no, you can’t carry a handgun to the pub.

I’ve made my choice.

If you really believe this garbage YOU are in for a really big surprise

If you really believe this garbage YOU are in for a really big surprise

I'm sorry, which 'garbage' are you refering to?

In a society that has chosen to help the sick and injured no matter their socio-economic status (through free medical care), that society has the right to tell members how to act.

how do you think these two things are related?


beware of ideas like the 'rights of society' and the 'choices of society'. for you (and many others) the devil's in the details.



You need to wear a helmet; you can’t drink and drive

since when is not wearing a helmet illegal in canada?



and no, you can’t carry a handgun to the pub.

sure i can



I’ve made my choice.

i have a dream that one day there will be a world where everyone is less easily satisfied, better able to tolerate uncertainty, and where the 'choices', dogmatic flights from reality, and popular sentiments of past ages will seem almost implausible.

They are a pain. On the MUP's in Montreal there are leather clad gangs of seniors riding the dern things.These menaces ride 2 wide and with their i pods plugged in they cannot hear my calls of 'a votre gauche" and so I have to get up on the cranks to get by them.

I would like to get an Air Zounds but it wouldn't look cool on my Ultimate.

Yeah. REGULAR bikes are a pain on MUPs in Montreal and Toronto. Those damn pedal only bikes are just too slow. I always have to slow down from my Normal 38 km/h to about 25 km/h on my Bionx powered mountain bike. The racing bikes are pretty good. Every so often I run into one that can blow me away but those guys are fairly rare. It's usually slow ass normal people on pedal bikes.

Damn eBikes (with speed limiter removed) are just too damn fast. :rolleyes:

Hmmm... wonder how all this effects the motorized wheelchair I outfitted with 24v truck batteries and starter motors.

It's still a motorized wheelchair. You can ride those on the sidewalks and even crosswalks but not on the road.

since when is not wearing a helmet illegal in canada?


Two situations I know of:

1 - Child under 16 riding a bike
2 - Adult over 16 riding an eBike

In both situations wearing a helmet is required by law. Those are the laws in Ontario and I think many other provinces are similar as well.

I'm struggling to be polite here. If any citizen of the USA snitches to our government over a similar policy that actually should be stricken as law in the first place, please take refuge in Canada. Most legislation is passed as political favors, i.e. cronyism, and has absolutely NO basis for law in the first place ... I want my freedom and the responsibility that goes with it. If I want to travel 60 mph on an unregistered e-bike, I should have that right to do so. If I want to own a scooter without peddles, I should have that right to do so. FREEDOM MEANS RISK. I don't WANT Canada's nanny state in my country. You inspire me to fight like no tomorrow to DEFEAT the planned North American Union.

Yeah, some idiots are too callously irresponsible to follow accepted rules and regulations concerning motorcycles, so why should they have to follow them like every one else? After all they're meant for stupid people, and riding around on an unregistered motorcycle should be a right if you call it "ebike". Why should being even remotely close to an electric bicycle have anything to with it?

Seriously tpreitzel, Your argument about freedom is a load of bull cause even in the US motorcycles have to be registered to use them on roads.

sure i can


In regards to the handgun thing, no, you really can't. Handguns are restricted weaponry here in Canada, not only do you need the license and the (ridiculous) registration (which doesn't really do jack), you also need the restricted weaponry course and the legal clearance to have one. It took a long time to get cleared to own a handgun, and I don't even own a gun yet.

In the US, the story of acquisition is different, but the reasoning isn't.

Bringing weaponry into a club or a pub is a stupid idea, and almost undoubtedly against club rules, in which case if discovered you get to deal with the bouncers.

Perhaps in the United States you might find a pub that'll let you tote your pistol in, but I doubt there are many out there.

In regards to the handgun thing, no, you really can't. Handguns are restricted weaponry here in Canada, not only do you need the license and the (ridiculous) registration (which doesn't really do jack), you also need the restricted weaponry course and the legal clearance to have one. It took a long time to get cleared to own a handgun, and I don't even own a gun yet.

In the US, the story of acquisition is different, but the reasoning isn't.

Bringing weaponry into a club or a pub is a stupid idea, and almost undoubtedly against club rules, in which case if discovered you get to deal with the bouncers.

Perhaps in the United States you might find a pub that'll let you tote your pistol in, but I doubt there are many out there.


just some humour there. i don't have a gun, but if i did, i could ... it just wouldn't be a good idea.

just some humour there. i don't have a gun, but if i did, i could ... it just wouldn't be a good idea.

Ahah, sorry. I thought you were being serious :)

On the subject of abuse:

If you want to do so, do so with some decency, and maturity: the understanding that you don't have the *right* to do so, rather the privilege to risk doing so at great risk, legally and personally. And most of all, when you make the decision to take that risk, don't make that decision for others. Burning down a highway, sure! you're the only one whos going to get maimed if you crash and a truck runs you over. Its these guys i've seen in bike lanes at high speed endangering other cyclists, or weaving through pedestrians that really bother me.

Perhaps in the United States you might find a pub that'll let you tote your pistol in,
Very few places (possibly Texas, Florida and Vermont) that allow that to happen and only in a state where you may (are licensed) to carry a handgun. The majority of states (and most counties and cities) will not issue a license to carry a handgun. Some (Washington DC comes to mind) will not permit you to own a handgun.

From the power-assist mailing list:


Subject: An e-mail from the Premier of Ontario

Date Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:06:33 -0500

From dmcguinty@premier.gov.on.ca

To bwicksted@rogers.com

Thank you for your online message about the use of electric vehicles on
Ontario's roads. I welcome the opportunity to respond.

Ontario's roads are among the safest in North America, and we remain
committed to making them even safer. I have noted your views regarding
the benefits of the electric Low-Speed Vehicle (LSV). Our government
supports green initiatives. In fact, electric vehicles that meet
federal
passenger vehicle standards can already travel on Ontario roads.

While we support fuel efficient and environmentally-friendly vehicles,
we also want vehicles that are safe on our roads. Low-speed vehicles
have a top speed of 40 kilometres per hour and are fuel-efficient and
environmentally friendly, however, they meet only 5 of 47
federally-mandated standards for passenger vehicles.

Before we would consider LSVs on roads, we need to be sure that these
vehicles can safely interact with other types of vehicles. That is why
in September 2006, we started a five-year pilot test of LSVs in
provincial and municipal parks, and conservation areas to see how
safely
these vehicles can operate in a controlled environment. This pilot will
help us get a better sense of where these vehicles should be allowed to
operate and who should be allowed to operate them.

I commend you for your support of green technology. As the specific
issue you raised would best be addressed by the Honourable Jim Bradley,
Minister of Transportation, I have passed on a copy of your online
message to him, asking that he or a member of his staff respond to you
directly.

Thank you again for contacting me about this important issue.

Dalton McGuinty
Premier of Ontario

c: The Honourable Jim Bradley

In regards to the handgun thing, no, you really can't. Handguns are restricted weaponry here in Canada, not only do you need the license and the (ridiculous) registration (which doesn't really do jack), you also need the restricted weaponry course and the legal clearance to have one. It took a long time to get cleared to own a handgun, and I don't even own a gun yet.

In the US, the story of acquisition is different, but the reasoning isn't.

Bringing weaponry into a club or a pub is a stupid idea, and almost undoubtedly against club rules, in which case if discovered you get to deal with the bouncers.

Perhaps in the United States you might find a pub that'll let you tote your pistol in, but I doubt there are many out there.


dont forget the safe you are storing it in. and you need to show them how its stored allot of red tape :)
not worth it.

Yeah, you also need to have an ATT last time I checked, which lets you.. Bring your gun to your house, or an approved range. Thats it. Not that I have much desire to own a handgun, but there's a point where the amount of legislation and b.s. you need to go through is just intense.

I'm going to stick with unrestricted, and if my career requires it sometime down the road, then i'll think about a handgun. Anyways, guns are off topic :)

From the power-assist mailing list:


Subject: An e-mail from the Premier of Ontario

Date Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:06:33 -0500

From dmcguinty@premier.gov.on.ca

To bwicksted@rogers.com

Thank you for your online message about the use of electric vehicles on
Ontario's roads. I welcome the opportunity to respond.

Ontario's roads are among the safest in North America, and we remain
committed to making them even safer. I have noted your views regarding
the benefits of the electric Low-Speed Vehicle (LSV). Our government
supports green initiatives. In fact, electric vehicles that meet
federal
passenger vehicle standards can already travel on Ontario roads.

While we support fuel efficient and environmentally-friendly vehicles,
we also want vehicles that are safe on our roads. Low-speed vehicles
have a top speed of 40 kilometres per hour and are fuel-efficient and
environmentally friendly, however, they meet only 5 of 47
federally-mandated standards for passenger vehicles.

Before we would consider LSVs on roads, we need to be sure that these
vehicles can safely interact with other types of vehicles. That is why
in September 2006, we started a five-year pilot test of LSVs in
provincial and municipal parks, and conservation areas to see how
safely
these vehicles can operate in a controlled environment. This pilot will
help us get a better sense of where these vehicles should be allowed to
operate and who should be allowed to operate them.

I commend you for your support of green technology. As the specific
issue you raised would best be addressed by the Honourable Jim Bradley,
Minister of Transportation, I have passed on a copy of your online
message to him, asking that he or a member of his staff respond to you
directly.

Thank you again for contacting me about this important issue.

Dalton McGuinty
Premier of Ontario

c: The Honourable Jim Bradley



Keeping things in context, the Premier's response was in answer to questions about when the ZENN (http://zenncars.com/)will be legal in Ontario. I'm hoping for 2009, but as other members have pointed out, this is a bike forum and this original posting was from the emotor assist group.