Electric Bikes - Chain Drive Motors...

So, I'm debating the pros and cons of chain drive (or whatever you call them) motors against hub motors.

Hub motors seem to be cheaper, easier to install, and better against the elements.

Chain drives seem to be more efficient, higher top speed, and better on hills.

Does that sound about right?

So, what I really need to know is, how can I protect a chain drive motor against the elements? I plan on riding an ebike in the rain/snow. How can I protect an external (chain drive or whatever) motor from getting destroyed by water?

Also, where can I buy a good ebike conversion kit for a cheap price? Most of you probably know by now that I am planning on converting a folder to an ebike, and taking it on the train with me as a daily commuter. So I will need to find a good conversion kit for cheap. I had been planning on getting a hub motor, but the more I read about it the more it looks like a chain drive motor would be better (I do have a stretch of a little over 2 miles of downhill to the train station, uphill on the way home).

I'm almost positive at this point that my bike will be a folder with 20" wheels. So I need to start looking for the proper kit to give it some juice. As small and light as possible so I can still fold and carry the bike on the train, but still enough juice to get me (220 pounds) up the 2 mile hill on the way home.

In general, your conclusion is in line with the norm. Hub motors are capable of outputting some very good torque and speed, but not usually with the same performance as a system that takes advantage of variable gearing. Hub motor are however, easier to install, nearly maintenance free, and yes, much better against the elements. They aren't necessarily cheaper though, some decent bottom bracket drive motors aren't that expensive. In fact, with motors like Heinzmann or BionX, they can be *much* more expensive.

As for protecting the motor against the elements, you can likely design some sort of water resistant case for the housing of the motor, but unfortunately the chain interface itself on the motor cannot be shielded, as even if you put it into a sealed unit with only the chain coming out, the chain *itself* would convey moisture and grit over the gear and likely cause wear/damage on the driveshaft of the motor as well, simply through transmission of that grit. Chains typically suffer the worst of winter biking, and they'll share that with your motor in turn. Even a well maintained bike usually has a crummy chain by the end of winter.

If you learn about winter maintenance and commit yourself to following the routine, you may be able to do pretty well just by removing the salt and grit from your motor when you take the folder inside: something which should be done anyways, as anything steel will rust.

So, I'm debating the pros and cons of chain drive (or whatever you call them) motors against hub motors.

Hub motors seem to be cheaper, easier to install, and better against the elements.

Chain drives seem to be more efficient, higher top speed, and better on hills.

Does that sound about right?

So, what I really need to know is, how can I protect a chain drive motor against the elements? I plan on riding an ebike in the rain/snow. How can I protect an external (chain drive or whatever) motor from getting destroyed by water?

Also, where can I buy a good ebike conversion kit for a cheap price? Most of you probably know by now that I am planning on converting a folder to an ebike, and taking it on the train with me as a daily commuter. So I will need to find a good conversion kit for cheap. I had been planning on getting a hub motor, but the more I read about it the more it looks like a chain drive motor would be better (I do have a stretch of a little over 2 miles of downhill to the train station, uphill on the way home).

I'm almost positive at this point that my bike will be a folder with 20" wheels. So I need to start looking for the proper kit to give it some juice. As small and light as possible so I can still fold and carry the bike on the train, but still enough juice to get me (220 pounds) up the 2 mile hill on the way home. You got it pretty right.Brushless motors can be surmeged in water and work perfectly and they are plenty protected in falls if they are center mounted on the swing arm or on the seat tube.The problem is finding a motor that has enough torque that will fit betweem the pedals for a single chain reduction.and remain small in size and weight with a great efficency..It has been done however.But no kits or motors are available to do so... First of all only I make such a motor and drive system so far that does all that is required in a 5 lb package for up to 1600 watts of efficient power at any RPM or voltage. You would think that someone else would figure that out by now LOL. but they obvously have not.The pedal chainwheel also acts the only chain guard that is needed for the independent motor drive used with the freewheeling pedal chain to drive the hub in common that also freewheels as well.3 feewheeling systems in common with up to 3 hub speeds or a NuVinci hub weighing quite a bit more at 4 thime the cost with no more benifets..Spraying A epoxy paint inside the motor will protect it from rust.With each 7 lbs of lithium batteries your good for 30 miles at 20 MPH with speeds up to 47 MPH and will take ANY hills at 92% or better of efficiecy throught the entire range WITHOUT even needing to pedal if that is your desire.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4798286533935376595&q=ecyclemaui&total=10&start=0&num=10&so=1&type=search&plindex=4
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9047051210592104411&q=ecyclemaui&total=10&start=0&num=10&so=1&type=search&plindex=3

So I need a 1600 watt motor to do that? What could I expect from a 500 watt motor (that seems to be the most powerful I can find)?

What do you think of this motor (link to ebay) (http://cgi.ebay.com/500w-Motorised-Electric-Motor-Bike-Bicycle-Kit-e-bike_W0QQitemZ310001852792QQihZ021QQcategoryZ98083QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)? Or this (500 watt) one (link to Cyclone kit) (http://www.cyclone-usa.com/store.php?crn=199)?

Which one of those is better? What kind of performance could I expect with those?

Also, where can I get the lithium batteries?

Brushless motors can be submerged? Won't they short out or something?

So I need a 1600 watt motor to do that? What could I expect from a 500 watt motor (that seems to be the most powerful I can find)?

What do you think of this motor (link to ebay) (http://cgi.ebay.com/500w-Motorised-Electric-Motor-Bike-Bicycle-Kit-e-bike_W0QQitemZ310001852792QQihZ021QQcategoryZ98083QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)? Or this (500 watt) one (link to Cyclone kit) (http://www.cyclone-usa.com/store.php?crn=199)?

Which one of those is better? What kind of performance could I expect with those?

Also, where can I get the lithium batteries?

Brushless motors can be submerged? Won't they short out or something?

Some hub motors can be completely submerged with proper precaution (sealing)
http://ebikes.ca this is the best battery source I can think of personally, the notable downside for you is that they're a Canadian website, which would involve dealing with potential additional shipping fees and the Canadian dollar now. Hopefully someone from the USA knows a good source, i'm sure there's one out there.

The Cyclone kits allow you to use the rear gears on your bicycle. If you have a good tooth range, such as 11-34, then you'll both be able to climb hills with great efficiency and move well on the flats. 500w is likely more than adequate for a folding bicycle being used for transportation purposes.

Those two kits are exactly the same, but one is on ebay being shipped out as a reroute from Taiwan, and the other is a North American distributor. I would go with the distributor (Cyclone-USA) as you'll likely get a better warranty, and the shipping cost on having the motor sent to you direct from Taiwan is going to be much higher. Ebay won't save you any money here, unless you can find the same kit much less than they're asking.

Saltydawg, what kind of elevation is the 2-mile hill you commute over? The hill on my commute is a 1000 ft elevation over 3 miles and my BionX motor is able to handle this adequately. Also, what top speed do you hope to be traveling at? The BionX motor's speed limiter caps at 20 mph, which seems like it'd be fast enough for most commuter trips, but you can also remove that. Lastly, how far is your commute? On my brief tests so far I've found battery life to sufficiently handle at the very least 10 miles of throttle-only operation (and can probably handle more).

A 1600 watt motor on a bike would classify it as a motorcycle or motorized cycle in almost every state or country I can think of. Not a problem if you don't mind being open to a citation. The ebike kit looks very promising. I am not sure what to think about the specs that say that it is 97.6% efficient. Efficiency can be measured in different ways. I would be a little concerned about how close the motor is to the ground. I am also looking at getting a folding bike and adding this kind of motor. In my driving conditions the motor would take a lot of beating from dirt, dust, rocks and trash on the street. Now, if you could mount it on top of the frame instead of the bottom - assuming you have space - I think that system would really rock...and on top of it all, if you could up the voltage to 36 volts so that you could take advantage of the a123 packs you'd be doing as well as anyone could hope for.

A question about that kit...why does the chain have to snake through the motor's gear, like an "S"? Why can't it simply do an "around the corner" on the gear? It seems like the additional turn of the "S" design would wear the chain out much faster and throw up more dirt/grease from the chain. Does anyone know where I can buy a motor like the one in the kit? I am not concerned about the other parts.

I don't know what the elevation is on the hill. I would guess 500 feet over 2 miles, but that is just a guess.
I would like to go as fast as possible. And I'm not worried about any citations or anything. I don;t think the police here are actively stopping e-bikes and measuring the motor's watt limit or whatever. I've never even seen an e-bike in person, so there can't bee too many people riding them here.
My commute is a little over 2 miles downhill to the train station, around 17 miles on the train, and then around 1/2 mile to work (flat road). And then reverse it to get back home at the end of the day. Currently i'm just driving the whole thing, but I hope to be riding a bike and taking the train soon (probably shortly after the holidays).
You're using that Bionx kit on a folding bike with 20" wheels, right? What kind of speed are you getting going up that hill?
As for those kits I listed and increasing the voltage and stuff- on the cyclone website it says you can't increase the voltage. So if the kit on ebay is the same thing, then you can't increase the voltage on it either.
I'm sure you coupld probably buy just the motor from the cyclone website though. Heck, the ebay seller would probably sell just the motor too.

A 1600 watt motor on a bike would classify it as a motorcycle or motorized cycle in almost every state or country I can think of. Having a motor that will handel 1600 watts of power efficiently doesnt mean it will not handel 200 to 750 watts efficiently at 36 volts.With some brushless motors your voltage is your limiting power factor.

So I need a 1600 watt motor to do that? What could I expect from a 500 watt motor (that seems to be the most powerful I can find)?

What do you think of this motor (link to ebay) (http://cgi.ebay.com/500w-Motorised-Electric-Motor-Bike-Bicycle-Kit-e-bike_W0QQitemZ310001852792QQihZ021QQcategoryZ98083QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)? Or this (500 watt) one (link to Cyclone kit) (http://www.cyclone-usa.com/store.php?crn=199)?

Which one of those is better? What kind of performance could I expect with those?

Also, where can I get the lithium batteries?

Brushless motors can be submerged? Won't they short out or something? As long as tour wires and hall sensors are insolated NO problem.
A I-Zip system would be your best chioce for hill climbing power in a light packsge.They are also vary reasonable in price.Most hubmotors cost more than a decent bicycle.

I don't know what the elevation is on the hill. I would guess 500 feet over 2 miles, but that is just a guess. Check out http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/--it'll give you elevation, amongst other things. (Zoom into your area, click on the Start Recording button, click the "large" elevation link, double click your starting point, double click your ending point, then just subtract the elevations on the graph.)

You're using that Bionx kit on a folding bike with 20" wheels, right? What kind of speed are you getting going up that hill? The first 2 miles are about 300 ft. and I'm able to go 18 or 19 mph no problem. The last 1.5 miles are about 700 ft. and I'm able to go 9 or 10 mph unassisted, 13 or 14 pedaling.

So, I'm debating the pros and cons of chain drive (or whatever you call them) motors against hub motors.

Hub motors seem to be cheaper, easier to install, and better against the elements.

Chain drives seem to be more efficient, higher top speed, and better on hills.

Does that sound about right?

So, what I really need to know is, how can I protect a chain drive motor against the elements? I plan on riding an ebike in the rain/snow. How can I protect an external (chain drive or whatever) motor from getting destroyed by water?

Also, where can I buy a good ebike conversion kit for a cheap price? Most of you probably know by now that I am planning on converting a folder to an ebike, and taking it on the train with me as a daily commuter. So I will need to find a good conversion kit for cheap. I had been planning on getting a hub motor, but the more I read about it the more it looks like a chain drive motor would be better (I do have a stretch of a little over 2 miles of downhill to the train station, uphill on the way home).

I'm almost positive at this point that my bike will be a folder with 20" wheels. So I need to start looking for the proper kit to give it some juice. As small and light as possible so I can still fold and carry the bike on the train, but still enough juice to get me (220 pounds) up the 2 mile hill on the way home.


Have you picked out a bike to convert? I've ridden a Dahon folder with a PL-350 kit and it was a lot of fun for a 35lb package. Certainly an ebike that would be perfect for riding to and from the train station.

http://www.jvbike.com/bikes/MuSL_BionX.htm

If I only had to ride 2.5 miles each way I'd probably build a lightweight pack of A123 cells and make the uphill trip in 4-5 minutes. 2s2p Dewalt drill packs and leave a couple of chargers at work.

Check out http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/--it'll give you elevation, amongst other things. (Zoom into your area, click on the Start Recording button, click the "large" elevation link, double click your starting point, double click your ending point, then just subtract the elevations on the graph.)
The first 2 miles are about 300 ft. and I'm able to go 18 or 19 mph no problem. The last 1.5 miles are about 700 ft. and I'm able to go 9 or 10 mph unassisted, 13 or 14 pedaling.

The hill is aprox 400 feet over 2 miles. So I would probably be somewhere around 16 or 17 mph with your setup. Not bad at all.

Have you picked out a bike to convert? I've ridden a Dahon folder with a PL-350 kit and it was a lot of fun for a 35lb package. Certainly an ebike that would be perfect for riding to and from the train station.

http://www.jvbike.com/bikes/MuSL_BionX.htm

If I only had to ride 2.5 miles each way I'd probably build a lightweight pack of A123 cells and make the uphill trip in 4-5 minutes. 2s2p Dewalt drill packs and leave a couple of chargers at work.

I haven't picked out a bike yet. I've been asking in the folding forums though and been reading about lots of them. That Dahon looks awesome though. It's pretty much exactly what i'm hoping to end up with when it's all said and done. But at 3 grand, I'd rather piece it together myself. I still have a month or 2 before I need to have it, so I'll just keep reading and asking questions here and then I'll convert the bike myself. I think the battery pack id the bottleneck in my plan. I still have no idea what an A123 cell is or where to get them. I've heard them mentioned here a few times and I assume it's probably a battery manufacturer, but I am not able to find a seller. What is a 2s2p Dewalt drill pack? Is it just the battery from a Dewalt cordless drill? take a few of them and wire them up together or something like that?

I'm running a cyclone 500W kit with a 24V/10Ah lithium iron phosphate pack. With moderate pedaling, it is capable of 20mph while climbing the sort of grade you're describing. (I tested it out on some crazy hills on the way to work on Friday) I'd also consider the motor to be plenty compact, light, cheap, and weatherproof. It was also kind of a pain to install. Overall I highly recommend it. Cyclone claims the 500W motor to be 97% efficient (97.6% for the 360W motor). I think that is peak efficiency, and doesn't take into account any losses through the reduction gearbox.


Now, if I could have bought a 5-pound motor with the setup and the performance that EBikeHawaii claims, I would have bought one. But since he hasn't even explained what parts/tools one would need to buy to build it I haven't a clue how to make one like that.

Ebikehawaii hates Crystalyte motors but his motor sounds pretty similar to them except that it goes through a gear reduction and is not built into a wheel... and it's lighter. He may have some pretty good ideas but it's hard to tell, because he's so busy promoting them in the most abrasive way possible rather than describing details of how he was able to make a motor that achieves such results.

I'm running a cyclone 500W kit with a 24V/10Ah lithium iron phosphate pack. With moderate pedaling, it is capable of 20mph while climbing the sort of grade you're describing. (I tested it out on some crazy hills on the way to work on Friday)

I was looking at either that or the 350W kit for my BikeE. With moderate pedaling do you know how much you are pulling out of the battery on the flats or what kind of range you might be getting?

I'd love to get ebikehawaii special 12.5 watt per a mile at 20mph without pedaling a 1600 watt motor kit too but it is currently unobtanium so I'll have to settle with a cyclone kit for my bikeE or Bionx for my Fuji Touring Xtracycle.

With moderate pedaling do you know how much you are pulling out of the battery on the flats or what kind of range you might be getting?

I guess I would estimate that my motor would run at 100W to keep me at 20mph on flat ground/no wind.

On my commute, flat ground is nearly nonexistent so I'd estimate I'm mostly running the motor at 0 watts (slight downhill or steep downhill) ~200watts (slight uphill) or ~500W (steep uphill). I believe the controller+motor is set to max out at about 750W @ 24V, but I try to avoid that because my battery is supposed to be used with a "350W" or smaller motor rather than a "500W" motor.

Another caveat about buying from cyclone taiwan: they apparently only ship the motors out ~2 times a month for individual orders (as opposed to a bunch at a time for a dealer or something).

I was looking at either that or the 350W kit for my BikeE. With moderate pedaling do you know how much you are pulling out of the battery on the flats or what kind of range you might be getting?

I'd love to get ebikehawaii special 12.5 watt per a mile at 20mph without pedaling a 1600 watt motor kit too but it is currently unobtanium so I'll have to settle with a cyclone kit for my bikeE or Bionx for my Fuji Touring Xtracycle.

Heh, yeah unobtanium sprinkled with fairy dust! :D

If one hops onto Kreuzotter and plugs in numbers onto default bikes, except wide high pressure slicks, then a cruiser like the maui special will need ~15.8wh/mile while something like a properly fitted mtb will need ~12.8. But, this is just the power needed at the wheels.

On top of that there's drive train loss, In human power #52, you can see effs for various transmission and that 93% through a gear hub is generally optimistic, but let's plug that in anyways! It yields 16.9wh/mile. Ok, now motors usable on bicycles generally range between mid70's to mid90's eff, so that gives 17.8-22.5wh/mile. And then there's the controller where 95% eff is a safe number, 18.7-23.7wh/mile.

I mean wow amazing, his motor somehow gets better every time he talks about it! Though I can't be arsed to figure required motor eff to match his latest claims, but it's a safe bet it's well into over-unity by now. And hell it also apparently emits a magical anti tire/chain wear aura?! Does it get any better? :rolleyes:

* Unscrews cap off salt shaker, dumps the whole thing on Randy's claims... *



Anyways, here's some actual measurements of the cyclone motors from Power-Assist:

3.10. Re: SV: [power-assist] Re: best electric motor
Posted by: "Bill Bushnell" bill.bushnell(at)pobox.com wbushnel
Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:03 pm ((PDT))

On Fri, 30 Mar 2007, mileshellon wrote:

> But the Cyclone 500 W motor has an efficiency of 97% Smile
>
> http://www.cyclone-tw.com/dc24.htm

I just tested last night the efficiency of an almost new Cyclone 500-watt
motor on my Gold Rush.

http://tinyurl.com/ytwjh2

I've seen the same spec and charts from Cyclone and was suspicious that
the efficiency was not as high as claimed (97% or ~90% on the chart). I
tested with a DrainBrain between the battery and the motor and a PowerTap
power measuring hub on the rear wheel. My efficiency measurements include
all system losses except tire rubber losses.

I took the measurements on the workstand at full throttle using the rear
brake as the load. The PowerTap smoothes its output, but the DrainBrain
jumps around. I tended to take the median reading on the DrainBrain as
well as multiple samples to reduce sampling error. At higher power levels
the motor got warm to hot, but never too hot to touch. The motor case
warms slowly and cools slowly. The brake rims also got hot, and I
suspended my tests when they got too hot to touch as I didn't want to blow
my tire off the rim.

Running with no load, the Cyclone system draws just under 100 watts, which
seemed rather high to me. (When I first tested this the motor drew 106
watts, but after some use it was down to about 90 watts.) I expect this
will go down further as the planetary gear reducer breaks in. I'll have
to measure it again after a few months of use. As I increased input power
I measured a nice, broad overall efficiency peak of just over 70%, which
is similar to but not quite as efficient as a Transmagnetics 400-watt
motor that I'm using in my Power Pursuit (http://tinyurl.com/35gr89).

This is more in line with my expectations, although after the promise of
90%+ efficiency I was secretly hoping the Cyclone would be at least as
efficient as the Transmagnetics.

My electrical hook-up is with 10 gauge copper, about three to four feet of
paired wire altogether, running through 3 sets of Anderson PowerPole 45A
connectors.

A liberal estimate of drivetrain losses is about 8% (motor chain: 14t-46t,
new chain, perfect chainline; regular chain: 20t-11t, worst-case, with old
but non-squeaking chain, good chainline), leaving the efficiency of the
Cyclone package (motor, controller, planetary gear reducer) at about 80%.
Perhaps the planetary gear drive will loosen up with use and yield a
higher overall efficiency, especially at lower power.

I find that Cyclone offers a convenient package for a home mechanic to
install a through-the-gears power assist. (I didn't choose the other
through-the-gears power assist model, Stokemonkey, because its 36-volt
system would require running three 12-volt U1 batteries instead of two,
making for more difficult battery placement.)

My main concern at this point is that the 500-watt motor may be too
powerful, its efficiency peak occurring where output power is higher than
350 watts, forcing me to ride faster to stay in the efficient region.
(Riding faster causes greater nonlinear aero losses unless I'm climbing a
steep hill.)

I'll use this setup for a while and see how it goes. I might find the
power addictive as long as I don't often run the batteries down within one
discharge cycle.

But, I'm curious to see if the 360-watt model has its efficiency curve
shifted down so that it reaches its plateau at 200 instead of 350 watts
output. Anyone have a used 360-watt Cyclone motor they want to sell?

Bill Bushnell
http://pobox.com/~bushnell/



And a later follow-up
Sun May 6, 2007 4:25 pm


Folks:

After receiving one of Mike Spark's (sparkmike@...) Cyclone
360-watt motors I put it through some testing , comparing it with the
Cyclone 500-watt motor.

The first plot is Efficiency vs. Power In at the optimum RPM according
to the manufacturer's data.

http://tinyurl.com/23skof

The next plot is somewhat more interesting for me because it includes
the effect of the planetary gear reducer and the bicycle drivetrain,
measuring Power In using a DrainBrain and Power Out using a PowerTap
hub. The main difference I see is that the 360-watt motor is more
efficient between 200 and 400 watts Power In, and the 500-watt motor is
more efficient above 400 watts Power In, although the 360 isn't much
worse than the 500 up to 700 watts Power In.

Gears are more efficient when transmitting higher power, and this comes
through in the chart by showing the left-handed upward tilt of the
efficiency curve for the Cyclone 360 shown in the manufacturer's data
being flattened when run through the gears and having a slightly lower
efficiency overall, somewhere around 69-70%, while the flat part of the
500-watt motor's efficiency sits just above 70%.

What makes the smaller motor more efficient in practice is that at
lower power levels, one tends to reserve use of the motor to climbing
hills only rather than to fight headwinds or to run at faster speeds.
A further benefit of the smaller motor is that shifting under load is
less hazardous to the cassette sprockets should a mis-shift occur,
there being less power available to bend or break sprocket teeth.

I took measurements at various throttle settings and at various RPMs,
although at no time was the RPM of the motor below the RPM of peak
power.

http://tinyurl.com/272d5v

My own subjective observation is that the 360-watt motor is better for
riding with other cyclists as it's easier to keep from riding away from
them. Also, the smaller motor allows for a longer range because one is
less likely to try to pull too much power from it fighting the wind
where the energy is lost to friction or by being careless with the
throttle.

I'll probably use the 360-watt motor most of the time on my Gold Rush,
unless I'm interested in all-out speed. Fortunately these two motors
are quickly interchangeable on their mount. The 500-watt motor may
work better with a heavier cyclist, on a work bike, or on a velomobile.
I weigh 180 lbs, my fully-loaded Gold Rush hybrid bike weighs 70-80
lbs, depending on how much water I'm carrying.

Here's a link to the album showing the whole power assist installation
on my Gold Rush.

http://tinyurl.com/2lgc54

Yesterday I rode the Gold Rush with the Cyclone 360 and a pair of
Valence U1 batteries, using the motor only on the uphills.

distance: 116.2 miles
climbing: 8250 feet
average speed: 15.3 mph
total motive energy: 4800kJ
battery energy available (nominal): 1024 watt-hours (3686kJ)
battery energy used: 626 watt-hours (2254kJ)
battery energy used for motion (net of efficiency losses): 1577kJ
max power out: 777 watts
ave. power out: 180 watts
watt-hours per mile: 5.4
feet climbed per watt-hour: 13.2

A month ago I rode a similar distance with slightly less climbing using
the Cyclone 500, but used the throttle heavily, especially while riding
into a stiff headwind for about 25 miles.

distance: 116.0 miles
climbing: 6450 feet
average speed: 17.7 mph
total motive energy: 5600kJ
battery energy available (nominal): 1024 watt-hours (3686kJ)
battery energy used: 1024.5 watt-hours (3688kJ)
battery energy used for motion (net of efficiency losses): 2619kJ
max power out: 926 watts
ave. power out: 239 watts
watt-hours per mile: 8.8
feet climbed per watt-hour: 6.3

Power out and motive energy were measured with a PowerTap hub. Energy
used was measured with a DrainBrain.

-- Bill
http://pobox.com/~bushnell/

Interesting read, i've been looking at the Cyclone motors quite intently lately. On the subject of 360w/500w and liability of damage to the cassette, I just chewed up 8th gear today thanks to the suprise deep freeze messing up my freewheel before I had a chance to change over to marine grease :D

Happy winter everyone!

I'm running a cyclone 500W kit with a 24V/10Ah lithium iron phosphate pack. With moderate pedaling, it is capable of 20mph while climbing the sort of grade you're describing. (I tested it out on some crazy hills on the way to work on Friday) I'd also consider the motor to be plenty compact, light, cheap, and weatherproof. It was also kind of a pain to install. Overall I highly recommend it. Cyclone claims the 500W motor to be 97% efficient (97.6% for the 360W motor). I think that is peak efficiency, and doesn't take into account any losses through the reduction gearbox.


Now, if I could have bought a 5-pound motor with the setup and the performance that EBikeHawaii claims, I would have bought one. But since he hasn't even explained what parts/tools one would need to buy to build it I haven't a clue how to make one like that.

Ebikehawaii hates Crystalyte motors but his motor sounds pretty similar to them except that it goes through a gear reduction and is not built into a wheel... and it's lighter. He may have some pretty good ideas but it's hard to tell, because he's so busy promoting them in the most abrasive way possible rather than describing details of how he was able to make a motor that achieves such results.There is No gear reduction from the motor to the wheel.It is a single chain reduction to the efficient slow moving planatary hub gears that have 3 speeds.Who needs a expensive and HEAVY hubmotor when you can get a light weight I-zip bike complete with the motor for less that will go up hills just as well or better?

There is No gear reduction from the motor to the wheel.It is a single chain reduction to the efficient slow moving planatary hub gears that have 3 speeds.Who needs a expensive and HEAVY hubmotor when you can get a light weight I-zip bike complete with the motor for less that will go up hills just as well or better?

Still gear reduction.

I'm running a cyclone 500W kit with a 24V/10Ah lithium iron phosphate pack. With moderate pedaling, it is capable of 20mph while climbing the sort of grade you're describing. (I tested it out on some crazy hills on the way to work on Friday) I'd also consider the motor to be plenty compact, light, cheap, and weatherproof. It was also kind of a pain to install. Overall I highly recommend it. Cyclone claims the 500W motor to be 97% efficient (97.6% for the 360W motor). I think that is peak efficiency, and doesn't take into account any losses through the reduction gearbox.


Now, if I could have bought a 5-pound motor with the setup and the performance that EBikeHawaii claims, I would have bought one. But since he hasn't even explained what parts/tools one would need to buy to build it I haven't a clue how to make one like that.

Ebikehawaii hates Crystalyte motors but his motor sounds pretty similar to them except that it goes through a gear reduction and is not built into a wheel... and it's lighter. He may have some pretty good ideas but it's hard to tell, because he's so busy promoting them in the most abrasive way possible rather than describing details of how he was able to make a motor that achieves such results.

There are no details because his setup doesn't achieve his claimed efficiency numbers. It would be nice if someone who isn't a raving lunatic could test the randymobile and report some numbers, but until that day I guess he'll be the only one to enjoy his 'special' machine. Except for that other fellow that ran one of his motors...

This thing is loud!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNx0jpMPzM8

Is the cyclone motor anywhere near that loud? That 1000 watt cyclone kit with 48 volt LiFePo4 battery pack was looking like the best option to me. http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order.htm

But if it's going to sound anything like that video then it's out of the question.

Still gear reduction.Second gear is locked out at a 1 to 1 ratio.A single speed with NO gears would be slightly more efficient than using 1st gear as I did in this 11 mile video and still go over 20 mph anywhere.On this round trip to the 2600 ft elevation mark, mostly on the dirt it took only 465 watt hours of battery power.Try that with your motorcycle hubmotor.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1142100244745905211

This thing is loud!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNx0jpMPzM8

Is the cyclone motor anywhere near that loud? That 1000 watt cyclone kit with 48 volt LiFePo4 battery pack was looking like the best option to me. http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order.htm

But if it's going to sound anything like that video then it's out of the question.

I think that video exaggerates the motor/gear noise due to the camera being close up, and being filmed indoors. From riding I-zips, I find the noise obnoxious, but it's a little more subdued than that video would have you believe.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hJqVRO5zUkA

The loudest part on my X5 powered bike is the freewheel clicking.

There are no details because his setup doesn't achieve his claimed efficiency numbers. It would be nice if someone who isn't a raving lunatic could test the randymobile and report some numbers, but until that day I guess he'll be the only one to enjoy his 'special' machine. Except for that other fellow that ran one of his motors...No one has one of my motors and it is is only 2 1/2" wide x 5" in diameter that will fit between the pedals on any bike weighing 5 lbs.A far cry from a heavy inefficient crystalyte hub motor or a multi reduction cyclone that is hard to fit on a bike in the same fassion.

This thing is loud!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNx0jpMPzM8

Is the cyclone motor anywhere near that loud? That 1000 watt cyclone kit with 48 volt LiFePo4 battery pack was looking like the best option to me. http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order.htm

But if it's going to sound anything like that video then it's out of the question.It sounds and looks like a car starter motor on the bench.

No one has one of my motors and it is is only 2 1/2" wide x 5" in diameter that will fit between the pedals on any bike weighing 5 lbs.A far cry from a heavy inefficient crystalyte hub motor or a multi reduction cyclone that is hard to fit on a bike in the same fassion.

Nuclear fassion must be how your bike gains efficiency... and nobody has one of your motors because the other one burned to the ground.

Care to show how your motor fits between the pedals "on any bike"? One that's not a POS Huffy with raised chain stays? Where would you mount your motor on this bike? http://www.bikes.com/bikes/2007/ELEMENT/element-70.aspx

Still gear reduction.Not nearly as LOUD as your noisey hub motor.

http://hosla.com/index.cfm?method=watch_video&watchvideo=PduUnwgXtiY

I think that video exaggerates the motor/gear noise due to the camera being close up, and being filmed indoors. From riding I-zips, I find the noise obnoxious, but it's a little more subdued than that video would have you believe.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hJqVRO5zUkA

The loudest part on my X5 powered bike is the freewheel clicking.It sounds a lot louder than a freewheel.At 35 amps ? It takes 35 watts to freewheespin my motor with the wheel at 60 mph.
http://hosla.com/index.cfm?method=watch_video&watchvideo=PduUnwgXtiY

I'm just going to comment here: they all sound like that when you lift them off the ground. Nearly silent when *on* the ground and moving.

It sounds a lot louder than a freewheel.At 35 amps ? It takes 35 watts to freewheespin my motor with the wheel at 60 mph.
http://hosla.com/index.cfm?method=watch_video&watchvideo=PduUnwgXtiY

Riding your ebike on a training stand isn't very useful. How much power does it use while moving at 60mph?

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-3333980691936508324

Why don't you post up a 0-40mph video from your bike for comparison?

edit: http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=2012839987489828179
Watch from 0-25 seconds, and then skip to 2:00 to hear the whine. Pretty noisey at 9:00 too.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6234539405906772307
My low speed video, and you can clearly hear the freewheel clicking. Motor noise barely audible.

Riding your ebike on a training stand isn't very useful. How much power does it use while moving at 60mph?

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-3333980691936508324

Why don't you post up a 0-40mph video from your bike for comparison?

edit: http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=2012839987489828179
Watch from 0-25 seconds, and then skip to 2:00 to hear the whine. Pretty noisey at 9:00 too.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6234539405906772307
My low speed video, and you can clearly hear the freewheel clicking. Motor noise barely audible.I can start off in 2nd gear and it will not wine at all untill 30 mph. At 47 mph in 3rd do you hear it wine? Your motor is louder than my chain and motor at its worst.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4798286533935376595
Comparitivly thes X5 sounds horriable!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvxaQD6KYmQ

I can start off in 2nd gear and it will not wine at all untill 30 mph. At 47 mph in 3rd do you hear it wine? Your motor is louder than my chain and motor at its worst.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4798286533935376595

Sounds pretty loud to me. It's funny how you can argue a point, even in the face of video (audio?) evidence to the contrary.

And what Randy's bike really sounds like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpLvq4wjK_8

I would much rather ride a bike that makes no annoying noises: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySXgXR9MXNc

Mongoose cruiser: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d9qXGf-yiw

Sounds a bit like a Honda Civic in reverse.

Cyclone bottom bracket drive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=selRFZUzh6Q

Crystalyte X5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avrnJLxYbyw

BionX: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDdNxo2uu5I

Which one do you think is quieter?

Mongoose cruiser: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d9qXGf-yiw

Sounds a bit like a Honda Civic in reverse.

Cyclone bottom bracket drive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=selRFZUzh6Q

Crystalyte X5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avrnJLxYbyw

BionX: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDdNxo2uu5I

Which one do you think is quieter? The fact is hub motors are NOT that Quiet or efficient.Just convient.MADE IN CHINA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDfDnbCLVd0&feature=related

I'm just going to comment here: they all sound like that when you lift them off the ground. Nearly silent when *on* the ground and moving.Is this what you would call "nearly silent" *on* the ground?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDfDnbCLVd0

http://hosla.com/index.cfm?method=watch_video&watchvideo=qvxaQD6KYmQ

I think that video exaggerates the motor/gear noise due to the camera being close up, and being filmed indoors. From riding I-zips, I find the noise obnoxious, but it's a little more subdued than that video would have you believe.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hJqVRO5zUkA

The loudest part on my X5 powered bike is the freewheel clicking.

In another thread the guy that made that video said that was only 6 volts on that motor. It will be much louder when he puts 24 on it.

But that's not a cyclone motor. It's one he took from a cordless saw. I was just curious because on the cyclone site it says the motors sound kind of like a cordless drill.

Is this what you would call "nearly silent" *on* the ground?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDfDnbCLVd0

http://hosla.com/index.cfm?method=watch_video&watchvideo=qvxaQD6KYmQ

Let's compare:
Hub motor - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej0DD-ULdgw

Izip with gear reduction - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJqVRO5zUkA

Randy, why don't you post a video fly by of your bike at full throttle and I will do the same. You can even use second gear to try and tilt the results in your favor.

ps: it's spelled noisy.

Randy, do you mind taking a few days off from the trolling? The weather there is probably beautiful, you could go out sailing or sightseeing.

Is the cyclone motor anywhere near that loud? That 1000 watt cyclone kit with 48 volt LiFePo4 battery pack was looking like the best option to me. http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order.htm


I would give the 1000 Watt Cyclone kit a miss, even if it purrs like a cat - looks a truly awful design.

I would give the 1000 Watt Cyclone kit a miss, even if it purrs like a cat - looks a truly awful design.

What's wrong with it? I don't know enough about motor design to be able to know good from bad, I would like to learn what to look for though...

What's wrong with it? I don't know enough about motor design to be able to know good from bad, I would like to learn what to look for though...

Well, for a start they've just used a motor that was easily available, rather than sourcing something more suitable. The length of the motor means that a ridiculously long bottom-bracket axle has to be used to clear it - so it will be neither comfortable or efficient to pedal.

The initial reduction is by chain directly from a sprocket on the motor shaft - this will wear rapidly and is likely to vibrate and be noisy.

Well, for a start they've just used a motor that was easily available, rather than sourcing something more suitable. The length of the motor means that a ridiculously long bottom-bracket axle has to be used to clear it - so it will be neither comfortable or efficient to pedal.

The initial reduction is by chain directly from a sprocket on the motor shaft - this will wear rapidly and is likely to vibrate and be noisy.A brushless Currie USPD or a I-zip have semi small motors that are a better design and you can hang them on most rear axels without the weight of a hub motor.They can get yoy 25 mph and climb most hills better than *most* hub motors and do it more efficiently with at least half the weight.The down side is some gear wine and some chain and or planetary gear and roller clutch maintenance.On some kits you can get different sprockes and controllers for different wheel speeds and voltages.IMO the best bang for the buck from the first brushless motor ebike kits made. Thank Malcome and the guys at MAC (the guys who made golf cart chargers) who made Curries first motors.

Well, for a start they've just used a motor that was easily available, rather than sourcing something more suitable. The length of the motor means that a ridiculously long bottom-bracket axle has to be used to clear it - so it will be neither comfortable or efficient to pedal.

The initial reduction is by chain directly from a sprocket on the motor shaft - this will wear rapidly and is likely to vibrate and be noisy.

My bad, I was confused. Under the picture, there is this caption:

"" Kit": including 180W or 250W or 360W or 500W or 1000W brushless motor with controller, battery lead, throttle, motor bracket, crank set Chain wheel on freewheel with shipping."

Here is the picture:

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/images/diykit.jpg (http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order.htm)

So I was thinking all those kits looked the same (as the picture).

But then down at the bottom of the page, under everything else, there is this caption:

"1000W Motorized Kit"

And the picture:
http://www.cyclone-tw.com/images/1000Wkit.jpg (http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order.htm)


So I see now that it is indeed U.G.L.Y.

They have a picture of one of those 1000 watt motors mounted to a bike:

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/images/1000Wbike-s.jpg (http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order.htm)

Man that thing looks horrible! Yeah, that 1000 watt motor is out of the question. The 500 watt looks good though...

saltydawg, I find the long bottom bracket spindle for the cyclone kit to be more than comfortable enough.

I'm sure it depends on the rider though.


What's wrong with it? I don't know enough about motor design to be able to know good from bad, I would like to learn what to look for though...

I don't think there are any major flaws with any of the cyclone kits. For e-motorcycle speeds and power, (and expense) I think you may be happier with the setups lowell likes to use (crystalyte controller+hubmotor combinations that max out at over 1000w, and high voltage batteries.)

For a bike you'll ride at about 20mph, the cyclone 500w kit is pretty good.

"Purrs like a cat" is a pretty good description of the noise level of the 500w cyclone kit, but I couldn't say whether that's true with the 1000w setup.

Keep it simple and LIGHT! Currie has some up grades what are better thought out.
http://www.evdeals.com/Motors.htm#36V-48V%20Super%20BMC%20750W%20(Bike,%20USPD,%20Pro-Drive
You could also make a nice project mid mounting or rack mounting a currie type motor.

Certainly, you'll have to be prepared to do a certain amount of "debugging": http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2739

There are no details because his setup doesn't achieve his claimed efficiency numbers. It would be nice if someone who isn't a raving lunatic could test the randymobile and report some numbers, but until that day I guess he'll be the only one to enjoy his 'special' machine. Except for that other fellow that ran one of his motors...
Yea Yea Yea.... Ok here is my secret.You can call Up Jim at Cyclone USA about independently testing my ride after he took a ride in my park while I chased him on my boys 125 KZ MX dirtbike.He seemed to want my system pretty bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6qeDkwnDPQ&feature=related
Here is a ebike that weighs less than LoWells motorcycle.It also has much more power. I doubt if it needs that bike chain or derailer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGTB_uZdw0o&feature=related
What I would like to see on videos is complete 1 hour or longer trips showing 20 mph round trips that have a tendancy to prove REAL efficiency results by also showing the batteries or at least telling us what kind and amp hours used per 20 mile ROUND trip at 20 mph average speeds. So Who holds the worlds record for the longest ebike video on a ebike going up hill or otherwise on a ROUND TRIP ? LOL