Just the front Pantour wheelbuild to do, hampered by sourcing spokes that were too small — Gah!;
Anyhoo - a sneak peek for those of you that recall my many mentions of this project since getting the Merc in June.
Still to fit - brake lever, brake cable, pedals [coming monday I hope] then off I go!
http://www.littlepixel.info/twenty/mercton_lp.jpg
Partlist:
Merc frame, bottom-bracket, clamps, tensioner, headset
Brompton S-type stem, Titanium forks, rear triangle and seatpost; pentaclip saddle-bracket, dual-pull brake calipers.
Birdy suspension elastomer
Phil Wood 32h Kierin (110mm OLN) track hub with 12 tooth sprocket and lockring
Pantour 32h suspension hub
Velocity Aeroheat 32 black anodised machined 349 ISO rims
Schwalbe Stelvio ISO 349 foldable slick tyres
Brooks B17-titanium (butchered)
Campagnolo Carbon cranks w 53t chainring
Ergon grips/bar ends, shortened straight alloy bars
Custom rollers off Ebay UK (butchered rollerblade wheels)
Various Ti nuts and bolts
More pics when finished next week...
matt52
11-24-07, 02:54 PM
drools
delwong
11-24-07, 03:45 PM
Is that a prancing stallion decal on the frame?
LittlePixel
11-24-07, 03:47 PM
Is that a prancing stallion decal on the frame?
Well spotted - it's actually just photoshopped on for now but definitely considering it - it goes so well with the red frame! (checks ebay for wee enameled ferrari badges)...
pm124
11-24-07, 04:05 PM
Verrry nice. I like the 16 spoke wheel. I don't think anyone has gone with the Velocity rims that you can drill yourself, but I thought about it when building my current wheels. Since I tour on them, I went for the full 32 spokes, but that makes it the equivalent of what? A 64 spoke 700cc wheel?
LittlePixel
11-24-07, 04:21 PM
Drilling yer' own must take complicated maths to get it right!
I suppose I should get around to finding a good method to seal the empty holes - anyone got any tried and tested fixes for that? (beyond black duck tape :))
Thanks for the kind words - really itching to get it finished now and see if it will work as a fixie with a chain-tensioner...
spambait11
11-24-07, 05:16 PM
Does it still fold?
LittlePixel
11-24-07, 06:25 PM
Does it still fold?
Yup - how well it works 'fixed' is another matter to be seen once the wheel is on... If not I can always spin on a freewheel.
jur
11-24-07, 06:30 PM
I suppose I should get around to finding a good method to seal the empty holes - anyone got any tried and tested fixes for that? (beyond black duck tape :))To my pleasant surprise the tape is holding up very well - no loss so far.
The spokes look very thick...?
jur
11-24-07, 06:31 PM
Where did you get the frame?
bangkok
11-24-07, 07:10 PM
Nice job, and a look at the Velocity site shows their Veloplugs, which suit your spare hole problem on the inside.
To my pleasant surprise the tape is holding up very well - no loss so far.
The spokes look very thick...?
I think that's more to do with the way I've removed it from the background in the photo; They are normal 14g stainless spokes - admittedly not butted...
Got the 'frame' as a whole Merc bike - they sell them new one at a time on UK ebay. I have a large box full of spares now should I want to rebuild it Mercstyle.
LittlePixel
11-24-07, 08:19 PM
Nice job, and a look at the Velocity site shows their Veloplugs, which suit your spare hole problem on the inside.
Thanks for the links - they look just the thing!
And a European stockist too (hopefully)
Veloplug.com (http://www.veloplug.com/index.php?http://www.veloplug.com/intro.html)
jur
11-25-07, 04:59 AM
I'm curious - what is the seat post diameter?
LittlePixel
11-25-07, 05:20 AM
It's the standard Brompton size - coming in at 32mm
Are you wondering about getting a Ti post for one of your ponys?
makeinu
11-25-07, 07:28 AM
chain tensioner on a fixed gear?
pokkuhlag
11-25-07, 09:36 AM
chain tensioner on a fixed gear?
Maybe because the rear triangle pivot point is too far away from the crank axle, which can lead to a loose chain when the rear triangle is folding position
EvilV
11-25-07, 09:50 AM
Very stylish Pixel. Nice work and unique. You have a talent for seeing how to make a nice bike out of an ordinary one.
Is that the standard Merc plastic chain tensioner? If so dump it and buy the aluminium one from Anita's ebay shop for £12. The plastic one is pants. I broke three of them and my mate broke one in his first twenty miles. It is by far and away the least relibale item on the Merc. The rest of the stuff is OK. The alu tensioner is a good item, but best keep a spare screw for the inner jockey wheel. I bent one while hammering my bike over bumps. The aluminium item won't break like the plastic one does, but when the chain gets well out of order on bumps and the rider keeps up the pedaling pressure, something will give - its the jockey bolt on the metal tensioner, or the tensioner itself on the plastic one.
And to makeinu - Pokkuhlag is right. As you fold the rear triangle right under, the chain becomes about two inches too loose.
makeinu
11-25-07, 10:08 AM
Is that the standard Merc plastic chain tensioner? If so dump it and buy the aluminium one from Anita's ebay shop for £12.
Where is Anita's ebay shop? I can't seem to find it.
LittlePixel
11-25-07, 10:09 AM
Maybe because the rear triangle pivot point is too far away from the crank axle, which can lead to a loose chain when the rear triangle is folding position
Yes - ideally it would be without but it would drop the chain all the time. The chain slackens by 2-3 inches when you fold the triangle under itself so this is really the only option besides finding a way to secure the slack chain some other way when folded.
LittlePixel
11-25-07, 10:21 AM
Very stylish Pixel. Nice work and unique. You have a talent for seeing how to make a nice bike out of an ordinary one.
Thanks man! I'm a sucker for aesthetics - they look a lot nicer with no cables going to the rear... I think I'm a minimalist at heart.
Is that the standard Merc plastic chain tensioner?
It is but I have an alloy one already on order - forgot to mention that. Yes - I recalled your previous posts on the subject and it does indeed seem a little flimsy especially for my use. Hopefully it will arrive as quickly as the bike did; @makeinu - for Merc parts on ebay search for username 123maddy.
The alu tensioner is a good item, but best keep a spare screw for the inner jockey wheel. I bent one while hammering my bike over bumps. The aluminium item won't break like the plastic one does, but when the chain gets well out of order on bumps and the rider keeps up the pedaling pressure, something will give - its the jockey bolt on the metal tensioner, or the tensioner itself on the plastic one.
Thanks for the sage! Hope i can get a good chainline; to me these are the inherant flaw with the frame - if only there was a way they could get the rear to hinge around the same centre-point as the cranks then the tension would never drop and it'd be a more reliable system...
Simple Simon
11-25-07, 11:28 AM
Great Stuff pixel !!
Q's ...
did you buy a complete merc (and ditch the rear triangle etc. ?)...
Were Brompton OK about selling just Ti triangle and forks ?
For the ultimate minimal look how about some internal cable runs ?
... or ... I guess if rear is fixed ? ..then you only have a front brake cable -- but then, wont the chain tensioner allow 'overrun' ? (ie top chain run slackening when slowing) ??
Looks like gearing may be 70"+ .. will this be OK for setting off and hilly bits --- (or did I remember comments about thighs like hams :D ).
Anyway ... well done !! NV !
LittlePixel
11-25-07, 11:42 AM
Did you buy a complete merc (and ditch the rear triangle etc. ?)...
I did yes. I have a box full of Merc bits if anyone wants anything...
Were Brompton OK about selling just Ti triangle and forks?
Didn't need to worry them as SJS Cycles will sell you any part you can think of with no questions asked...
For the ultimate minimal look how about some internal cable runs?
That sounds like quite a job - I'd fear of drilling the alloy. Maybe on a steel one...
... or ... I guess if rear is fixed?
It is - or that's the plan.
...but then, wont the chain tensioner allow 'overrun' ? (ie topchain run slackening when slowing)??
This is what remains to be seen... I've a good feeling about it but know it's a gamble. If it's not workable I'll be just as happy to spin on a freewheel. Might not bother with rear brakes - I never use them anyway.
Looks like gearing may be 70"+
75" by my calcs (53—>12)
will this be OK for setting off and hilly bits --- (or did I remember comments about thighs like hams :D ).
Perhaps not - that's just the chainring that came with the cranks. If it's too much I may go down to 52t or lower. I usually ride about 72" on my Twenty and Peugeot so I guess I have to suck it and see. It'll be FAST if it does all work though [grins]
Anyway ... well done !! NV !
Sweet - thanks!
EvilV
11-25-07, 12:27 PM
if only there was a way they could get the rear to hinge around the same centre-point as the cranks then the tension would never drop and it'd be a more reliable system...
Yes - you're right. I look at the DT Mini and admire the simple drive, sans tensioner. It's is the only fail point I've found with the bike - oh, and a few rear spokes. I don't know if Brompton plastic tensioners break much, but the original plastic Merc one does. Grace Gallant who make the Merc, now supply new models with the metal part as standard.
Sammyboy
11-26-07, 04:14 AM
I will be extremely interested to hear whether or not the chain tensioner dies under backpedalling. Cool project!
LWaB
11-26-07, 05:20 AM
Using Stelvio tyres your gear is a little lower than you calculate. Fitting a freewheel will noticeably lower your gearing on that hub. Smallest freewheel = 16t, used to be 15t.
I've seen one fellow use a coaster brake on a Brompton years ago. He fitted a bumpstop to support the tensioner arm when backpedalling.
My 12t cog doesn't allow fitting a standard lockring because of chain interference. Have you got a stepped lockring?
Does the Pentaclip stay clear of the saddle with your weight on it? The photo suggests clearance is a bit tight but I'd like to fit a Pentaclip to my wife's Brommie.
LittlePixel
11-26-07, 06:13 AM
Using Stelvio tyres your gear is a little lower than you calculate. Fitting a freewheel will noticeably lower your gearing on that hub. Smallest freewheel = 16t, used to be 15t.
Lower is probably good - 75 is a little tall for me these days - I moved to a hillier area recently....
I've seen one fellow use a coaster brake on a Brompton years ago. He fitted a bumpstop to support the tensioner arm when backpedalling.
That sounds like a good solution - seems to me those cables really get in the way when you fold it.
My 12t cog doesn't allow fitting a standard lockring because of chain interference. Have you got a stepped lockring?
Yes it's stepped - clearance is tight but it fits - both are Phil items...
Does the Pentaclip stay clear of the saddle with your weight on it? The photo suggests clearance is a bit tight but I'd like to fit a Pentaclip to my wife's Brommie.
It does fit - but I totally see where you're coming from - the thinner end of the post you clamp the clip to is too long really. I may actually mark the point where the clip rests on the shoulder of the main width of tube and saw off the excess that protrudes from the top of the clip as there's no need for it to be as long as it is really. And yes—I could without a bruised coxsix every time I take it out!
Chop!
11-26-07, 08:03 AM
LittlePixel
Nice bike, well done.
Obviously a chain ternsioner is needed to stop the chain from falling off when folding.
As I've mentioned in previous posts (My dear departed Rohloff Birdy ;o( GGGrrrr! & my Rohloff GoBike both needed tensioners despite losing their derailleurs)
I experienced so many failures with the standard Brommie one that I was buying 2 at a time! Solved it by filling the webbing with plastic metal, heavy but effective.
So if there is an aluminium version get it or splash out on a Rohloff tensioner.
Whichever tensioner you choose, if your chain still derails, add a Birdy wire loop tensioner to the cog spindle, this will take up the remaining slack.
Hope this is helpful.
Good luck, & even better LOCK!!!!!
Still looking for an in frame/fork tracking device BTW
Safe riding!
Chop!
LWaB
11-26-07, 08:19 AM
the thinner end of the post you clamp the clip to is too long really. I may actually mark the point where the clip rests on the shoulder of the main width of tube and saw off the excess that protrudes from the top of the clip as there's no need for it to be as long as it is really.
There is the other option:
- Slide the clip up the seatpost to the top (doesn't need to rest on the flare) and
- Trim and flare the bottom of the seatpost so the saddle is at the correct height when pulled to the maximum.
LittlePixel
11-26-07, 08:58 AM
I experienced so many failures with the standard Brommie one that I was buying 2 at a time! Solved it by filling the webbing with plastic metal, heavy but effective.
I just got my alloy Merc replacement one in the post this morning and it looks like a massive improvement. It fits the Brompton rear triangle perfectly too so perhaps you should get one instead of getting through so many 'official' parts. It costs £12.50 + £2 P+P which is pretty darn good if you ask me.
...or splash out on a Rohloff tensioner.
I've read threads on here that state the spring direction on a Rohloff tensioner is opposite and as such doesn't work. No idea if it's true - but a Rohloff tensioner only has one jockey wheel right?
Whichever tensioner you choose, if your chain still derails, add a Birdy wire loop tensioner to the spindle, this will take up the remaining slack.
Thanks - I'll look into it if need be. That's why I love this forum - so many tips to be had!
Good luck, & even better LOCK!!!!!
Hell yeah - not really intending to leave this one lying around for the Raptors much... :)
Still looking for an in frame/fork tracking device BTW
Could you downsize the same thing some people fit to cars maybe? I have no experience of these things bar what I've seen on The Man From U.N.C.L.E. and I fear that was mainly fiction :)
LittlePixel
11-26-07, 09:00 AM
Slide the clip up the seatpost to the top (doesn't need to rest on the flare)
If it rests though there's no chance of it slipping down and I can remove about 15mm of unneeded material.
Trim and flare the bottom of the seatpost so the saddle is at the correct height when pulled to the maximum.
This seems like a good idea. Opinions on flaring? Very much a 'measure twice, cut once' situation that one!
LWaB
11-26-07, 01:08 PM
Opinions on flaring? Very much a 'measure twice, cut once' situation that one!
It worked well when I did it to Mrs LWaB's extended Brompton seatpost. I left the upper section intact to allow fine-tuning of saddle height, particularly when swapping saddle brands. Haven't tried it with titanium though.
EvilV
11-26-07, 01:57 PM
LittlePixel
Nice bike, well done.
Obviously a chain ternsioner is needed to stop the chain from falling off when folding.
As I've mentioned in previous posts (My dear departed Rohloff Birdy ;o( GGGrrrr! & my Rohloff GoBike both needed tensioners despite losing their derailleurs)
I experienced so many failures with the standard Brommie one that I was buying 2 at a time! Solved it by filling the webbing with plastic metal, heavy but effective.
So if there is an aluminium version get it or splash out on a Rohloff tensioner.
Whichever tensioner you choose, if your chain still derails, add a Birdy wire loop tensioner to the cog spindle, this will take up the remaining slack.
Hope this is helpful.
Good luck, & even better LOCK!!!!!
Still looking for an in frame/fork tracking device BTW
Safe riding!
Chop!
I thought the three merc plastic tensioner failures in 1800 miles were some sort of merc specfic fault. Maybe not since you were getting them on the B tensioners.
I got an aluminium tensioner from Merc about seven months back as a good will replacement. Since then only one little problem. I bent one of the Jockey wheel bolts ( a wee screw - that holds the wheel on in line with the chain like a tiny axle). I bent the damned thing and just stuck in another screw of the same thread that I had lying around. Energetic riding is going to punish the tensioner at times.
Fear&Trembling
11-28-07, 06:17 AM
Very,very nice LP.
53/12 with Stelvios - more like 70/1"
I still don't think it'll work as a fixed and fold, but please, prove me wrong!
LittlePixel
11-28-07, 06:31 AM
Very,very nice LP.
53/12 with Stelvios - more like 70/1"
I forget they are skinnier. I shall do some more accurate measurements of inches based on circumference and judicious use of π ;)
If it's 70"/71" though I'll be happier - 75" is a bit tall for such a wee bike.
I still don't think it'll work as a fixed and fold, but please, prove me wrong!
And you're right to be skeptical! I have heard anecdotal evidence it has been done before but whether that involved a tensioner is not known. I've a good feeling about it though - I really do.
pm124
11-28-07, 03:14 PM
It worked well when I did it to Mrs LWaB's extended Brompton seatpost. I left the upper section intact to allow fine-tuning of saddle height, particularly when swapping saddle brands. Haven't tried it with titanium though.
I've been tempted to either buy a titanium Birdy seatpost in Japan or to drill out the bottom of the existing aluminum seatpost to make it lighter. I'm 5'11, so there is plenty of room at the bottom. My better 1/3 is just 5'2" so there is a lot of post that can be drilled out on hers. But I'm worried about unforeseen problems associated with the job. The post is anodized 6061. Any thoughts? It's 34.9mm in diameter.
pm124
11-28-07, 03:18 PM
And you're right to be skeptical! I have heard anecdotal evidence it has been done before but whether that involved a tensioner is not known. I've a good feeling about it though - I really do.
I like the idea of a Birdy-esque wire loop tensioner. Since it wraps around the sides of the chain, it does a good job of keeping the chain from falling off while simultaneously adding tension. With that set up, I don't see why it wouldn't work.
jur
11-28-07, 03:59 PM
I've been tempted to either buy a titanium Birdy seatpost in Japan or to drill out the bottom of the existing aluminum seatpost to make it lighter. I'm 5'11, so there is plenty of room at the bottom. My better 1/3 is just 5'2" so there is a lot of post that can be drilled out on hers. But I'm worried about unforeseen problems associated with the job. The post is anodized 6061. Any thoughts? It's 34.9mm in diameter. Perhaps you can make a calculation of the amount of weight that you expect to reduce. I would predict it to be a trifling amount hardly worth bothering about.
Ally is about 2.7g/cc, so if the bottom of the post is 200mm long, 34.9mm in diameter with wall thickness of 2mm, just that section would have a mass of about 118g. Drilling 50% out would then save a mere 60g.
[/hijack]
pm124
11-28-07, 07:49 PM
Perhaps you can make a calculation of the amount of weight that you expect to reduce. I would predict it to be a trifling amount hardly worth bothering about.
Ally is about 2.7g/cc, so if the bottom of the post is 200mm long, 34.9mm in diameter with wall thickness of 2mm, just that section would have a mass of about 118g. Drilling 50% out would then save a mere 60g.
[/hijack]
Thanks Jur. That's quite true. That brings me back to earth a bit. The whole post with the attachment hardware is about 400gms on hers and 500gms on mine. The titanium post is about 200gms (claimed, but if so, it must be seriously butted.) If it really is stronger and that much lighter, that might be the way to go.
LittlePixel
12-10-07, 08:09 AM
OK people it's finished!
First up - it *does* work fixed gear (YAY!); Chain feels taught and safe and using the legs to brake feels pretty much the same as on my Twenty. How this works is partly due to the strong alloy tensioner as well as the little Merc frame clip that holds the rear in place. I also removed 4 links from the standard chain length - it's so short it would pretty-much ride without any tensioner, but this keeps the whole caboodle all where it should be beautifully when it folds, and I couldn't be happier.
The clearances in the rear triangle have been tight but not problematic—mainly through luck—but the dished wheel means spokes clear the stays by only about 3 mm and the tensioner clears the lockring by less than 1mm. But this is enough, and there's no rubbing I can detect. I did intend to 'rotafix' the track cog on to the hub but this is not possible with the clearances in the small rear triangle - it just gets clogged with a double width of chain so the lockring is indispensible. So I'm sure you can tell - I'm glad the gamble paid off. Didn't really want a freewheel.
Ok so here's the other great bit - I just got some fishing scales and it's weight comes in at just 8.8 kg (19 1/2 ilbs). Which isn't bad huh?
It's so fun to ride - nimble but surefooted and the hard elastomer has killed the 'bouncy' feeling I've detected on the standard 1999 Brompton C3 a friend has that I've ridden.
Oh and the brakes - just standard Brompton pads and dual arm calipers feel great - progressive and very stoppy. But not at all snatchy.
Ok so now the caveats: The Ti seatpost seems to like gravity (gah!) and I'm not 100% sure the Pantour hub is set up quite right. The instructions it came with are just risable so there's a degree of guesswork! But it rotates well and hasn't made any horrible noises so I think it's ok - it just doesn't seem to have a whole lot of spring in it. Maybe I'm expecting more - it's only a micro-shock isn't it? The bars don't feel too vibratory so maybe it's just fine.
Anyway—some 'money' shots for you. Am off to NY next week for a wee while and hope to take it along to help me explore the city. No I won't be leaving it anywhere locked up if I can possibly help it!
Glad I was wrong about the fixed capability. Let us know how you get on with the tensioner...
With the Pantour Suspension hub, I would experiment with the various "Trajectory Adjustment Screws" - they can make a noticeable difference to the ride.
You could sub 8Kg it with a bit more effort and £...!
Why did you bother with the Brompton decals though - I'd be proud of that mutant.
caotropheus
12-10-07, 09:30 AM
Huw
You may guess how I feel according to my writing colour!:cry:
LittlePixel
12-10-07, 09:38 AM
Beautiful.
Thankyee!
]Glad I was wrong about the fixed capability. Let us know how you get on with the tensioner...
It was a gamble and I did have to spend £65 on a custum CNC'd part to help keep the tensioner on but am so glad it paid off.
With the Pantour Suspension hub, I would experiment with the various "Trajectory Adjustment Screws" - they can make a noticeable difference to the ride.
Thanks for that; I intend to try it for a few more miles on the current setting (adjustment screws are on the mid-rear setting) to see how 'it rolls' and then maybe try some others once I'm more used to the ride.
You could sub 8Kg it with a bit more effort and £...!
Hmm... [gets out drill] :)
Seriously though - not much more can be done bar using silly-expensive Ti Eggbeater pedals, riding brakeless and losing the sumptuously comfy Ergon bars.
Why did you bother with the Brompton decals though - I'd be proud of that mutant.
I know - I might not keep them on forever but it looked kinda naked and so much of it is actually real Brompy it seemed rude not to. :)
BruceMetras
12-10-07, 09:56 AM
and I'm not 100% sure the Pantour hub is set up quite right. The instructions it came with are just risable so there's a degree of guesswork! But it rotates well and hasn't made any horrible noises so I think it's ok - it just doesn't seem to have a whole lot of spring in it. Maybe I'm expecting more - it's only a micro-shock isn't it? The bars don't feel too vibratory so maybe it's just fine.
]
Hey LP.. nice job with your bike.. should be a perfect traveling companion... as to the Pantour hub, I can't tell by your pics of how you have it set up, but you should get around 1/2" of travel if set to the max.. a problem might occur if you have it set to max and you don't have enough rim braking width to keep the brake blocks on the rim when the front wheel is loaded.. As you probably know, Dahon's answer was a wheel with more braking surface.. here's a pic of what you should expect to see at the front wheel loaded and unloaded.. note the axle relationship to the hub... you should be able to approximate this with the bike stationary..
Very nice build. I think you should have your Mercton logo printed as a decal instead of using the Brompton Decal.
SesameCrunch
12-10-07, 01:03 PM
Niiice job! Congratulations!
delwong
12-10-07, 01:13 PM
[QUOTE=LittlePixel;5779819] Am off to NY next week for a wee while and hope to take it along to help me explore the city. No I won't be leaving it anywhere locked up if I can possibly help it! QUOTE]
Hi LP, what happened to the prancing stallion? I live in NYC and I'm interested in seeing your ride to inform a silimar project just beginning, SL2-X with lighter and upgraded transmission parts and areoheat wheels. Let me know if you want company or tour guidance. Regards, Andy
spambait11
12-10-07, 02:39 PM
Beautiful, LP.
It was a gamble and I did have to spend £65 on a custum CNC'd part to help keep the tensioner on but am so glad it paid off.
Do you have a (closeup) pic of this part?
LittlePixel
12-10-07, 03:00 PM
what happened to the prancing stallion?
I got the fear about it looking tacky. I'm not an F1 person really so despite it's 'rightness' decided not to persue finding a decal (for now haha!)
I live in NYC and I'm interested in seeing your ride to inform a silimar project just beginning, SL2-X with lighter and upgraded transmission parts and areoheat wheels. Let me know if you want company or tour guidance. Regards, Andy
Nice one - I may take you up on that if it's not too cold! Bit worried about the baggage handlers so it all rests on whether the Hardcase I've ordered for it will arrive in time for my flight or not. But if I do get it over the atlantic it'd be nice to have a bit of a ride and a chat f'sure!
huw :)
LittlePixel
12-10-07, 03:08 PM
Beautiful, LP. Do you have a (closeup) pic of this part?
I really should have taken a pic - basically - the tensioner has a big hole in it so the torpedo part of the SA hub can poke through. The Phil Wood Track hub is unusual because the 'axles' are actually m8 bolts that thread into holes in the hub bearings, instead of the usual straight-through axle. So the hole was too big and I needed a special spacer to fil the void and have an area of purchase for the serrated washer fitted to the track bolt. So it's basically like a wee top hat with an M8 hole in it. Fitted to the bike it just looks like a washer but it narrows and then fills the space with about 9 mm of milled alloy goodness.
2nd best I can do is put up the diagram I made for the CNC people: