View Full Version : Climbing hills
Is it better to just put the hammer down and climb the hill out of the saddle? I know Lance Armstrong was a hell of a climber but I see him out of the saddle when most people are still sitting down. Was it just that he was way above everyone else?
NoRacer
11-25-07, 06:40 PM
It's better for us mere mortals to pace ourselves up a hill. Depending on your fitness, this could be faster or slower than the next guy.
When you've still got 200+ miles left in the ride, sprinting up hills like Lance isn't a real good idea.
I use an HRM to make sure I'm not overdoing it and tend to sit more than stand. Sometimes standing is nice to stretch the legs and relieve your bottom, but pacing is more important.
Carbonfiberboy
11-25-07, 07:52 PM
This is the long distance forum. Start your next brevet using as a maximum allowable HR the same maximum HR you could achieve at the end of your last brevet. That's all you need to know. After experience, you may want to adjust that slightly.
No clue what a bravet is, I posted it in the long distance forums because I was wondering how people deal with hills on long distance rides. lets say you still have 40 miles after a good sized climb how would you handle the hill? If you only had 10 miles after the hill? I know this can't really be answered but what are the average sized hills that you encounter on a normal century?
The long-distance rides we do usually are not races. There is a need to conserve our energy, irrespective of our normal riding pace, to ensure we get to the finish within the maximum allowable time.
There are as many different ways to climb hills as there are riders. Some attack and ride up them reasonably quickly because their physique -- low weight and high power output (power-to-weight ratio) allows them to do that. A taller, heavier rider might not attack the hills so rapidly. And there are some who just struggle slowly to the top through damned persistence and sheer grit.
Lance Armstrong was unique among the leading pro cyclists when he started winning TdFs because he used a high cadence and low gears to climb. Contrast his speed up hills with the mashing of Jan Ullrich, and the fact Jan was never able to come to terms with high cadence climbing.
But Armstrong did show that there is a place for high-cadence climbing with lower gears -- which some, including me, advocate if for nothing else, but to conserve the knees.
It's also amazing how, after 600 or 1000 or 1200km that granny gear the amateur road racers (who wouldn't go any further than a 200) would scoff at, becomes a much visited friend if there are any sorts of hills around.
The exceptions, of course, are the time-trial races (six, 12 and 24 hour), the major long-distance races that proliferate in the US, and the ubiquitous RAAM. But I suspect that the styles for climbing hills in all those events are as varied as the competitors and the bikes they ride, too.
I agree with Rowan. It depends a lot on what kind of body-potential you were born with, and how far you have to go after the climb. I'm a big, blocky, but endurance-type. Which means, that while I'm big and blocky, I don't have a lot of fast-twitch power in my legs like a lot of blocky sprinter-types, but can push a fairly heavy gear for a long time compared to many riders that I know. On hills that take over 20 minutes to climb, I pick a steady cadence that I can barely hold at 66-75 rpm for the entire time (I do 90+ rpm on flatter areas). I stand only to rest my quads and gluts for short stretches, and sometimes to sprint over the top, if there is anything left in the tank at that point. I'm usually going a little bit slower near the top than at the bottom.
Most of the medium-sized guys that I ride with (155-170 lbs) use a different strategy. They tend to prefer a lighter gear with little or no standing, and tend to "spin" up the hill, ever increasing either their speed or their effort until they reach the top. That means that they start out slower than I do at the bottom, and always end up going much faster than I do at the top.
The really light-and-fast climber types around here tend to start-out the hill at the same speed that I do, only they tend to use super-fast cadence, and that innitial speed is their "rest and recover" speed. Every few minutes up the climb, they do out-of-the-saddle sprint attacks for a minute or so, and then slow back down again to "rest".
If everyone is within the same range of conditioning, then we all tend to reach the top within a couple of minutes of each other. Size has less to do with how fast you get up a big hill or mountain than you would think, too. Most of it is conditioning, and figuring out how to get up the hill that suits your strengths. Then there is Lance Armstrong...who is a beautiful freak of nature.
Have fun out there!
I am seeing that now. I'm 168 now and am thinking of not trying to gain weight if I want to become competative at biking. I just ordered Serious Cycling and the cyclists training bibile and I figured from there I could get a good idea on how to train. I am finding that my leggs weren't meant for fast spinning uphills. I think I may do better from just grinding it out but still learning. I won't really know how I should climb until winter break. I bike every day to work and school so I don't get much rest on the leggs. After a day break (I even got sick on my break) I was peddling faster the next day and I was even more sick. during christmas break I'm going to train a lot harder to see how much better shape I can get in. Will riding every day due to work get in the way of training? Or will it help improve it?
kmac--
i think you'll find the cyclists training bible an excellent guide. you'll also find that training involves lots of slow riding to build base miles. it's not at all about going hard all the time. you discovered that yourself when you had a break in your regular riding.
i'm just curious, though, why you posted here. i believe most of the riders in the LD forum, including myself, are not interested in racing. like others, i prefer to spin up hills and only stand to stretch. i don't think you're going to find much racing advice here.
enjoy your riding.
** mp **
Road Fan
11-26-07, 09:49 PM
I am finding that my leggs weren't meant for fast spinning uphills. I think I may do better from just grinding it out but still learning. I won't really know how I should climb until winter break.
I think you'll find a happy medium between fast spinning (cadence 95 +) and grinding it out (maybe 50 rpm). Just experiment and see what works for you. Don't overthink your techniques, just get out and ride, and let them evolve, so you begin to see what your body likes.
Road Fan
kmac--
i think you'll find the cyclists training bible an excellent guide. you'll also find that training involves lots of slow riding to build base miles. it's not at all about going hard all the time. you discovered that yourself when you had a break in your regular riding.
i'm just curious, though, why you posted here. i believe most of the riders in the LD forum, including myself, are not interested in racing. like others, i prefer to spin up hills and only stand to stretch. i don't think you're going to find much racing advice here.
enjoy your riding.
** mp **
mp has hit the target with that LSD riding -- Long STEADY Distance.
It's something that you and Kittydew need to take heed of as part of your training programs.
All the top pro cyclists as well as the more successful other amateurs put in quite a lot of LSD before they start to think about sprint training (which includes hillclimbing).
LSD doesn't necessarily increase your speed, but it does build the cardiovascular system, and gets the muscles used to extra activity before they are put under real stress. It can help sort out fit issues on your bike, too.
LSD also plays a major role, I believe, in wind-down after hard racing or LD riding.
I think you will find it the essential foundation in any decent and reputable training program.
I know I would not find a lot of information about racing in here but I figured who better to ask about climbing hills other than those that ride long distances, you will hit a hill on a 50 to 100 mile ride unless you forcefully avoid them. I've ridden with a friend who was 205 and could climb like a mountain goat. No joke I walked a crazy ammount because my hips couldn't handle the hill he took me on. It was roughly 5 miles at a very steep incline. The second time I did ride it though it was much easier.
WOW!! Ok so when I first started riding I would basically mash gears. I guess I did it so I didn't have to ride as far and I got a really good cardio workout. I read articles about biking and they said to not waste your energy going up hills and lower the gear and up the cadence. I know there are exceptions. I have broken both hips and I don't think they like fast movements with lots of pressure, hills. So today I tried going in a higher gear, usually I've been going up this hill in first gear and 4th cog. Today I mashed up that hill!! I was in second gear and 4th cog for a while then wen't down to the third one a little bit later. I got up there a lot faster, but burnt out at about the same place and had to lower the gear. I have noticed that after going up a hill in first gear and 4th cog that going into another gear is really hard, today after mashing I guess you would say going back into a higher gear was much easier.
Using a high cadence is an acquired talent for most people. Upping a cadence usually results in a higher heart rate. Cycling trainers I know of suggest getting a cadence-capable computer and using it to increase cadence by 5rpm or so over a period of, say, a week or fortnight. That way, your cardiovascular system as well as your active muscles become used to the higher cadence. I think there was a thread on this elsewhere quite recently with some other sound advice.
I know that having ridden a fixed gear, I am able to stand and climb my usual hills in higher gears than I used to.
But, I have learned over a long period that there are many ways to ride a bike, and be successful without hurting yourself. I still think, however, that the head-to-head contrasts between the styles of Armstrong and Ullrich tell the real story in relation to effective hillclimbing.
banerjek
11-28-07, 12:12 PM
No clue what a bravet is, I posted it in the long distance forums because I was wondering how people deal with hills on long distance rides. lets say you still have 40 miles after a good sized climb how would you handle the hill? If you only had 10 miles after the hill? I know this can't really be answered but what are the average sized hills that you encounter on a normal century?
In your case, it sounds like you need to improve both your conditioning and your pacing.
When you get improve your conditioning, you will find climbing easier -- 40 miles after a big climb is no big deal unless it is 40 more miles of climbing, you're racing, or you're in some other extreme conditions. What constitutes an average sized hill depends on where you ride. Some places are flat, some places have rolling hills, and some centuries are in the mountains.
The basic rule is that if you have a long way to ride, you can't be in pain early on. Otherwise, you will weaken yourself and eventually your muscles will give out. That's one of the reasons that spinning works. However, there are some inclines you cannot spin up so you should (and in some cases, must) stand. Even when you can spin, it is useful to alternate muscle groups so one group can rest while another works -- a combination of sitting and standing is often the way to go.
For hills that are only a few hundred yards long, I'll often let my spinning muscles rest and stand up as soon as my pace is slow enough that the aero penalty for standing disappears. This gets you done with the hill quickly. If there are rollers and the hills are closer together, I'll sit a bit more and stand a bit less while paying attention to what my muscles are telling me. If there are miles of climbing up a steep grade and I can't comfortably spin at a decent RPM, I'll alternate spinning at a lower cadence and standing. The amount of time spent standing or sitting between switching depends on the grade, but it could be quite short -- less than half a minute.
You have to consider how much your muscles can give you and adjust your pace accordingly. I'll sometimes maintain a decent pace, but I never hammer on distance rides until I'm getting close to the end. Once you burn your legs up, you are in for a world of hurt and you'll be really slow.
I love the feeling of training hard and then taking a break. When you come back you are much stronger. On my commute to school I'm usually 13-14 miles an hour. After having 2 days of rest from probably 45 days of constant riding I was going 18.5 all the way there except on the hills :-) Thanks for your help I feel the books I orderd will also be of much help.
banerjek
11-28-07, 02:51 PM
I love the feeling of training hard and then taking a break.
If you like that, supplement your riding with a trainer and get some DVDs to help you work out. A number of people here (including myself) like the Spinervals series. You can get DVDs that are specifically designed to help you with hills.
Riding a trainer can be a real workout. When I get off mine, I can barely stand.
I rode a hill series that I use to do during the summer, it use to feel like hell doing these hills. I rode them and it felt like a piece of cake today. I am getting better but have now learned, quit talking about it and go climb some hills!! During winter break I am suppose to take some cycling classes with one of the girls I work with. I work at a gym and I usually take some of her morning shifts and she teaches the cycling class. She is very very fit, she probably does 20 hrs a week of teaching dance and doing cardio. Then again I wanna take that class and see how hard it is, if its not too bad then I'll be climbing a lot on those trainers. Thanks for the tips.
Maybe hills are my strongpoint, when I bought my bike I went for the biggest one because I thought hey I'm an adult I just need the biggest one and I'm good. My bro got one a size smaller, I rode his to work today and back and on the hills they are 10 times easier, I use bigger gears too!! I think it may just be that the size of my mtb is too big for my short little leggs. If I get the right size of bike I may be able to be competative within a year. Anywho for p.e we have to do a vo2 max test. The first time I took it was 10 weeks ago and it was 53.3 ml...... all that crap Today I took it and it was 77.771ml.... all that crap!!!! That is a good vo2 max isn't it?
Just a few comments .....
First, to me, it's not a long ride until I pass the 100 mile point. So, there is a good chance I will encounter one or more (many more) decent hills with 40 miles to go ... or 60 miles to go ... or 250 miles to go ......
Second, when I'm on a long ride, what works for me is to sit and spin. I'll stand and power my way over the occasional hill just for something different, but mostly I sit and spin. I'm not racing ... I'm not going my long rides in order to win anything, so there's no point over-exerting myself on the hills.
Third, I come from a very flat land ... I spent 13 years in Manitoba where the biggest hill was an overpass. When I moved to Alberta 3 years ago, hills were a real challenge for me. I just kept riding them and riding them ... I had no other choice ... and now I'm feeling much more comfortable on them. Maybe you just need more practice. From my experience it takes a few seasons of climbing before you really notice a difference.
Fourth, yes, a bicycle that fits makes a huge difference to all aspects of cycling.
Maybe hills are my strongpoint, when I bought my bike I went for the biggest one because I thought hey I'm an adult I just need the biggest one and I'm good. My bro got one a size smaller, I rode his to work today and back and on the hills they are 10 times easier, I use bigger gears too!! I think it may just be that the size of my mtb is too big for my short little leggs. If I get the right size of bike I may be able to be competative within a year. Anywho for p.e we have to do a vo2 max test. The first time I took it was 10 weeks ago and it was 53.3 ml...... all that crap Today I took it and it was 77.771ml.... all that crap!!!! That is a good vo2 max isn't it?
Let me get this a little clearer... are we talking about someone trying to ride an MTB as a road bike? And is that MTB fitted with off-road tyres or slicks or road tyres? And does it have front suspension? And are you talking about climbing hills off-road or on a sealed road surface.
And VO2 tests are for comparative purposes, as far as I am concerned. You have a base to start with. As with most physical exercise, you will make rapid gains in fitness, but you will start to slow the progress and the work ethic will need to get harder as you continue towards your target.
Ok my bike is the same model but bigger than my bros. I have street tires on it and fenders along with a rack. I rode his bike thise weekend due to problems with my bike and his has mountain bike tires on it and I was going faster on his bike, I had no day of rest inbetween switching bikes either.
I'm better at climbing hills but still have a question. How do you know when you are spinning compared to spinning too fast? I hit hills fast and go to a lower gear but still have good cadence but its still hard to keep that rpm once I hit the 3/4th mark of the hill.
stand when your cadence drops
it is easier on the knees
a good climber will mix it up between standing and sitting.
there is no rule about it. it is about making your legs fresher for the entire climb
and switching modes does that to an extent
standing does use up more power for a given speed, so use it with some thought and don't
blow your gasket
hairytoes
12-27-07, 05:02 AM
You don't have to be 'mashing' to stand up. If you are just conserving energy, you can ride slowly up - picking an effort level similar to walking up a very steep hill - just 'winch' those pedals round. I found this out when I had a commute to work that included a cat 2 climb in either direction. I had to make it up that climb no matter how tired I was, or the weather conditions. Sitting and spinning was more efficient, but I couldn't always do it. Mixing 'winching' and spinning over the course of the climb gave some muscle groups a chance to recuperate.
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