Utility Cycling - I have a really knotty utility diy challenge for you

Imagine, if you will, that I have one of these trikes:



Imagine, now, that I want to turn it into a mobile tea shop. I can carry teabags, cups, milk and sugar easily enough, but how would I go about carrying hot water? I need to keep it just below boiling for perhaps 3-4 hours at a time, and I want to do it in the lowest cost, and lowest impact/energy consumption way possible. How would you all propose to achieve this?

(http://www.robbinssports.com/sporting-goods-store/igloo-five-gallon-sports-water-cooler-p-4112.html)

And when you get it done, be sure to post pics, I'd like to see it.

Sounds like a pretty neat idea.

The roadside stands that sell boiled peanuts here in Georgia use a propane tank powered heater to keep their water boiling all day.

for hot tea youd need to boil it for each time you make it.....you could try one of these

http://www.pcthiker.com/pages/gear/pepsistove.shtml

there are quite a few types

JW, the OP is from the UK, one would think he has a good idea how to make tea, no? ;)

That propane sounds like a good idea. For smaller quantities, start with boiling water and use Sterno. And don't try this with the wood box there!

In terms of size, weight, and boiling speed, it may be hard to beat the Jet Boil camp stove system: http://www.rei.com/product/708890

It boils a half liter of water in something like two and half minutes.

My only concern is the fuel canisters. I am not sure whether they can be recycled.

ooops....didnt see that....lol

solar panel and a hot plate?

Ok....two approaches

Start with a super insulated container for the water that can take heat, fill it in the morning with boiling water, then reheat a serving size, using a focused heat source (small propane burner and low flat tea pot perhaps), just before brewing.

Approach 2: Again a super insulated container, but in this case one that can be heated continously with a small heat source to keep the water ready to go. Like a Russian Samovar but with lots of insulation

A lot would depend on the business model...ie will the tea drinking customer wait a minute or two, or if the tea can't be brewed immediately will a sale be lost.

Starbucks invaded the UK yet, at least the kiosk style Starbucks? If so check out what they are using to heat water. The kiosk ones I see in convention centers over here are self contained portable units and I don't remember seeing a drop cord hanging out of one.

Some type of propane burner...Sterno doesn't get hot enough to boil water. Couple of other thoughts...check out the Hot Dog carts if you have them over there. They use some type of propane burner. You can get smaller refillable tanks and I have seen them made out of some type of resin that makes them much lighter. Two other options but not really workable is a really long extension cord...or solar;) Somebody, somewhere in the restaurant industry has to make a gas fired coffee urn that would keep the water hot.

Aaron:)

Approach 2: Again a super insulated container, but in this case one that can be heated continously with a small heat source to keep the water ready to go. Like a Russian Samovar but with lots of insulation

A lot would depend on the business model...ie will the tea drinking customer wait a minute or two, or if the tea can't be brewed immediately will a sale be lost.

This idea is what's been in my mind, the more I think about it. The bike can only take 45 kilos, so I'm thinking a 35 litre tank, as flat and low as it can be, canted just a little in two axis, so the water always drains towards one corner, where I'd have a drain plug and a riser pump - perhaps something modded from the tops of those pump coffee flasks that conference venues have. A mains powered element from a tea urn to boil it to begin with (although I'd certainly want to put very hot water in at the start), and then *something* to keep it just below boiling during the day (plus it'd be as insulated as humanly possible!). So what I'm wondering now is, what would the *something* be? Could it be electrical, could it be battery powered? Could I hook up a mini wind generator and a solar panel? How much power is needed to keep 35 litres of water at around 90 degrees when it's insulated?

We don't have kiosk Starbucks here, that I've seen, just the stores. And also, you want water just below boiling for tea.....


Thanks for helping me think about this!

Does the water have to be boiling? I thought good tea was made with water that was at a temperature beneath that of boiling point.

Having just talked with someone au-fait with solar energy, you would need a deep-cycle battery and plenty of sunshine or wind... and systems with these batteries do not like heating elements at all, according to my friend. Experience at my work shows that someone who "borrowed" a set of deep-cycle batteries to run an electric blanket didn't have much of a brain -- ever since, the batteries have been ruined and the solar storage runs out very rapidly with just a computer and printer operating. Apart from that, good-quality deep-cycle batteries with a good amphour rating weigh a ton because they are made of lead.

To my mind, the only real way to keep the water hot appears to be the propane gas system. It's simple and cheap to set up, and probably has been the heat source of choice for myriad roadside food stall across the world for eons. It's clean, the by-products are relatively unharmful, and it's mighty efficient. You could also look at an alcohol burner to keep water at the temperature you need, but that has its inherent risks in refilling.

By the way, are you intending to use teabags (uggghh!) or real leaf tea as in a teapot or tea cage?

Also, many people in England, as I believe, like milk with their tea. Have you considered the cooling side of things as well.

If you read my posts, I quite agree. The water needs to be just below boiling. I think we're going to have to use teabags, since the nature of the way street trading licenses work mean that staying still for long is not possible. The plan is, in the medium term, to open a tea shop, which would definitely be all about loose leaves and teapots, but the tea wagon is supposed to raise funds for that, and provide a quick and easy start. We're planning to offer a lot of different teas (you would be amazed what's available in teabag form, if you know where to look), so that it feels boutiquey and like a special treat (a la Starbucks), and most of these don't involve milk. We are, however, really aware that lots of people will want a straightforward builder's tea with milk and one sugar. At the moment, we're thinking of keeping it simple by supplying long life milk in miniature cartons, but that plan could change. Propane fridges are out there, but they'd add a LOT of weight to the thing.

Currently, the idea is that the bike contains the water, and a fancy tea-serving surface, with cups in holders, a pump for the water, little cubbies with all the different fancy teas, sugar etc, and that the materials to refill all these cubbies live in a backpack, or in a pannier or whatever on the rear rack. It sounds like propane will be the only way to go, but how easy is it to combine propane heating with good insulation?

I don't think this would be all that difficult, just quite involved.

I would start by replacing that wooden box with a stainless steel custom made vending unit. I'd also want some overhead shelter against rain, something that would easily fold away. I'm thinking a square umbrella slightly larger than the cargo area, mounted straigt up out of the middle of the cargo area. It can be closed when on the go or easily opened when stopped.

Regarding your question about heating water I'd start with one of these (http://www.jacksons-camping.co.uk/heaters/tea-urns.htm) mounted centrally at floor level on the cargo area so that nobody but me could access the tap (big safety issue there). I'd mount the propane bottle in an appropriate area on one side of the urn, and a well insulated ice box to cary milk bottles packed in ice on the opposite side to keep the weight distribution balanced.

Why just tea? why not coffee as well? I'm thinking 12 volt bean grinder and a plunger. The challenge there would be to rinse it out between brews.... or maybe just a good quality instant coffee? (I can't beleive I used 'good quality' and 'instant' together to describe coffee :eek:) How about sconnes, muffins, anything else that goes with tea/coffee that doesn't require refrigeration? a perspex vending display wouldn't be too hard.

This sounds like the sort of challenge I can really sink my teeth into. I wish I were there to help you with the fitout.

Well, the thing that puts us off coffee is that the brew time is so much higher. Technically, the only way to operate something like this is under a "peddlars license". That means you can only stop to serve one customer at a time, and then must keep moving. In reality, you'll usually get away with being somewhere for 15 mins or so, perhaps a little longer sometimes. Tea can be a "grab and go" thing - teabag in the cup, water in the cup, hand them a stirrer, and buh-bye. With coffee, you've got to deal with a press, and the time you wait for it to brew, and cleaning. Instant would be an option, but really, in this day and age, who is going to pay for a cup of instant coffee? I'm liking your other ideas a lot. I'm not sure that completely replacing the box with a custom fabrication is going to be feasible though, at least at first, purely from a cost/time point of view. I like the idea of scones and muffins, providing there's really room to make that work. Overcrowding could make it unnappealing. The umbrella is a definite requirement - i can find some way of mounting it folded I'm sure.

This might be an option.

http://www.progolf.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1733345

Here is a lower price and reviews.

http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Portable-Hot-Water-Heater/dp/B0000AE6XA

Bummer.

• Due to the integrated mechanical and electrical over-temperature shut-off devices, Hot Water on Demand will not produce water that continuously exceeds 160°F. The burner will simply cycle off while the water keeps flowing for your convenience The burner will cycle back on when internal water temperatures reach about 120°F.

http://www.coleman.com/coleman/images/pdf/2300-700.pdf

Hmmm. 160 might just about do it, but 120, I think, won't.

Here is another option, but a little overkill.

http://enchantco.com/hwh3.html

How about carrying a six-pack of these air-pump hot pots? Maybe someone makes a commercial size version?

A cheap version:

http://cgi.ebay.com/BONJOUR-Le-Metro-AIR-PUMP-POT-LARGE-16-cup-COFFEE-Tea_W0QQitemZ260124639298QQcmdZViewItem

Zojirushi's are expensive, but high quality:

http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=197483

They are the similar to the ones used in cafes that store hot water to make your own tea. They're great at parties, too. The thermos keeps liquids super hot (right under boiling) for hours. Not cheap, but it's a one-time purchase and you don't have to worry about an open flame or buying/transporting fuel.

I like this idea - these seem to keep water hot enough for 4 hours at a time when at conference venues. The fact that they're glass lined worries me, however. I recall when glass lined thermos flasks were the standard for hiking that it was all to easy to break them, and I worry about how these would stand up to rattling along on the trike on the way to wherever. Plus, we'd need ten of them to get close to the sort of capacity that I'd want. Still, worth consideration, for sure.

Well, the thing that puts us off coffee is that the brew time is so much higher. .

The solution for this is to just brew one cup at time with a one cup, Melitta style cone. About 2 minutes You could either use one of the gold permanent filters and just knock the grounds out....or use a filter and dispose of filter and grounds...easy clean up.

Years ago there was a funky coffee shop in Santa Cruz, CA that brewed all their coffee that way (note for those not familar with santa cruz...it is very funky, hippy, surfer place that has had the distinction of having the only socialist city council in the US.....get a copy of the old movie "The Lost Boys" for a feel)

I would go as simple as possible..gravity, no pumps, simple propane/butane/???ane heater.

good luck

This is better - a 5 litre airpot, with no glass, for £37. Promising.

I like this idea - these seem to keep water hot enough for 4 hours at a time when at conference venues. The fact that they're glass lined worries me, however. I recall when glass lined thermos flasks were the standard for hiking that it was all to easy to break them, and I worry about how these would stand up to rattling along on the trike on the way to wherever. Plus, we'd need ten of them to get close to the sort of capacity that I'd want. Still, worth consideration, for sure.

They make them with unbreakable stainless steel liners too :)

Doing a quick search, the largest I could find was 3.8L...so you'd "only" need 8 of them :eek:

Bunn 2.5L/3.0L/3.8L Airpots – Stainless Steel Liner
http://www.cw-usa.com/equipment-commercial-airpotsystems-airpots.html

The solution for this is to just brew one cup at time with a one cup, Melitta style cone. About 2 minutes You could either use one of the gold permanent filters and just knock the grounds out....or use a filter and dispose of filter and grounds...easy clean up.

Years ago there was a funky coffee shop in Santa Cruz, CA that brewed all their coffee that way (note for those not familar with santa cruz...it is very funky, hippy, surfer place that has had the distinction of having the only socialist city council in the US.....get a copy of the old movie "The Lost Boys" for a feel)

I would go as simple as possible..gravity, no pumps, simple propane/butane/???ane heater.

good luck

Even two minutes is a bit tricky. It becomes more like 4 minutes by the time you've stopped for the customer, ascertained what he wants, made the coffee, taken his money, etc etc. I know that doesn't sound like a long time, but if you take the environment into account, it can be. It's worth considering though - with your method, it is at least possible. The beauty of the tea is that we can provide a much better range than you can get in any shop in the area. We'll never compete with Starbucks on coffee.

Gravity would mean having the tap very low down, or the water very high up. The former is not desirable because of waving teacups around near the ground, and the latter is a potential problem if it's a lot of water. A 5L airpot up high, with all the rest stored at the bottom of the box - no problem. A 35 litre tank up so high that the tap is at or near the top of the box - problematic. The beauty of the airpots is the redundancy. One fails? No problem - you've usually got a couple more. Getting low on water, but really busy? Well, once we have a teashop as well, someone can leap on another bike, and deliver you a few fresh airpots.

They make them with unbreakable stainless steel liners too :)

Doing a quick search, the largest I could find was 3.8L...so you'd "only" need 8 of them :eek:

Bunn 2.5L/3.0L/3.8L Airpots – Stainless Steel Liner
http://www.cw-usa.com/equipment-commercial-airpotsystems-airpots.html

I actually found a 5 liter one, available in the UK, with stainless liner. Only 6 required then. http://www.clickonstore.net/stainless-airpot-litres-p-30.html?advert3p1nv

I actually found a 5 liter one, available in the UK, with stainless liner. Only 6 required then. http://www.clickonstore.net/stainless-airpot-litres-p-30.html?advert3p1nv

id atleast get one of them and test it out. i have a stainless lined thermos with a vaccum between the inner and outer shell and it will keep ice in it for 12 hours.......it melts but there is alot unmelted

these might do the trick......go for it

Here are some links from googling 'gas samovar'

http://www.zomorrodian-co.com/english/PRODUCT.htm

http://www.akbarbaradaran.com/EN/Products/GasSamavars.htm

There would be a challenge in mounting them, due to a high center of gravity....but it could look very impressive....part of the image/marketing.

otherwise the air pots and maybe a burner pot combo to top off the pots from time to time with hot water...until you get your teashop :) might be the kiss (keep it simple stupid) way.

A couple of comments.

First, it sounds like a great idea!

If you want to store water as hot as possible (whether sent through an instant heater or not) I would think there may be some advantage of coloring the box black to absorb heat from the sun.

Also, there is some coffee that comes in bags, just like tea. You should keep some of them in your stash as well if you think some customers may want coffee, and willing to settle for run of the mill stuff.

The samovar is awesome! I've been in Iran and seen those things for real, too, and they are WAY cool. Perhaps we do need to come up with some sort of coffee service method. I think the challenges with mounting the samovar would make it a non-starter for the trike, though it would be SOOO memorable if we could make it work. The fact that the tap is at the bottom makes for challenges too. In the shop though, I believe we'll have to have a Samovar. You guys are awesome with this stuff!

Also note if you keep the water under pressure, you can heat it up more. If your insulated vessle can handle 15 psi, you can unplug your heater and have the water at about ~250 degrees Farenheit when you take off. Depending on how well insulated, it may still be above 212 when you are done.

Also with an electric heating element, you might be able to rig up a generator that runs when you pedal backwards or something...

You guys are just a bunch of ...teatotelers.:D:D

A couple of comments.

First, it sounds like a great idea!

If you want to store water as hot as possible (whether sent through an instant heater or not) I would think there may be some advantage of coloring the box black to absorb heat from the sun.

Also, there is some coffee that comes in bags, just like tea. You should keep some of them in your stash as well if you think some customers may want coffee, and willing to settle for run of the mill stuff.

Yeah, we use these since I'm the only one here that prefers regular to unleaded and I rarely have more than a couple cups a day so why make a whole pot, got Folgers to try them out and have been using A&P's and Stop & Shop's store brands ever since, takes the same time to brew as a cup of tea and it's real coffee, not instant.

So far no complaints. :)

...how would I go about carrying hot water? I need to keep it just below boiling for perhaps 3-4 hours at a time, and I want to do it in the lowest cost, and lowest impact/energy consumption way possible....
I haven't read through the other answers--but I would get a portable propane burner of some type. There's camping ones that can hook up to various sizes of tanks.

In the US at least, propane doesn't cost a lot and it puts out a lot of heat.
-----
The solar power idea is a no-go; you would have to cover half a singles' tennis court with solar panels to power a decent electric stove burner, and solar panels aren't cheap anywhere.
~

Get an old hot dog cart and gut it for the burners and all, you could even re-use the stainless steel box to keep the trike from going up in flames.

I haven't read through the other answers--but I would get a portable propane burner of some type. There's camping ones that can hook up to various sizes of tanks.

In the US at least, propane doesn't cost a lot and it puts out a lot of heat.
-----
The solar power idea is a no-go; you would have to cover half a singles' tennis court with solar panels to power a decent electric stove burner, and solar panels aren't cheap anywhere.
~

When I was thinking solar I was figuring a direct heating of the water...not a solar to electric conversion...too much power loss on that. I have built solar reflector ovens that will boil water, out of little more than a few pieces of highly polished aluminum or stainless steel.

I think the stainless vacuum bottles are on the right track, along with some type of propane heater.

Aaron:)

Given weight limitations:

Highly insulated tank pre-heated before departure.

Primary solar heater with propane secondary assist.

http://www.worksman.com/
^^^
Can't believe I forgot about Worksman. That's what those guys make. Friendly company, I don't know if buying from them would be feasible given The Pond is in the way (then again with the $ <2:1 vs. the £), but they may be good for information at least.

Looking at their vending cycles, they're $2000 even before shipping. The trike we're looking at is £550, and we can probably fit it out to our needs for another £3-400, but the Worksman site is interesting to look at, for sure.

Just some ideas...

I think it might be possible to use a small 12v solar panel attached to a 12v immersion heater element that you somehow rig to the cap of a thermos to keep the water warm for a long time (depending on cloud coverage and outside temperature). The water would have to be warm to begin with, because this setup will probably not be powerful enough to actually heat the water. You could also add a thermometer to this setup to see when you should switch the heater setup to the next thermos...
This would be very low impact, but the solar panel is the problem. They are not really that cheap.

Another idea might be to heat a number of bricks or similar "temperature-storage" at home an then transfer them with the already heated water to the cart.
That's relatively low impact and very economical, but heavy. Also i don't know if it would be such a good idea with a wooden box/cart.

Keep us updated!

Looking at their vending cycles, they're $2000 even before shipping. The trike we're looking at is £550, and we can probably fit it out to our needs for another £3-400, but the Worksman site is interesting to look at, for sure.

They sell parts as well as full carts/bikes. They are a friendly company, may be willing to describe how their units work.

http://www.worksman.com/
^^^
Can't believe I forgot about Worksman. That's what those guys make. Friendly company, I don't know if buying from them would be feasible given The Pond is in the way (then again with the $ <2:1 vs. the £), but they may be good for information at least.

Worksman is great to deal with and they'll work with you.

When my girlfriend got her trike from them she could only afford a single speed but she told them she wants to upgrade it later so they sent her one that had the frame tabs already on it to add the conversion kit when we can get it.

Otherwise I'd have had to get some welding done on it when the time comes.

+1 on Worksman The plant I am currently working at has a huge fleet of bikes, trikes and 4 wheeled movers. I called them on some parts that I was using as an experiment on something else and they were happy to give me the specs on them, and shipped the ones I asked for ASAP.

Aaron:)

This is moving forward apace. I've won some freelance training design work which will earn me enough to pay for the bike and the fitout before Christmas! We're going with the Airpots for now, because it's simple. So, we'll get the bike in ASAP, and I'll have to round up some friends with woodwork skills.....

check out this rig

http://cycleliciousness.blogspot.com/2007/12/coffee-bike-future-of-urban-coffee.html