Living Car Free - to the kids

i was reading the teenage car free thread ans was shocked that most of them were just going to bypass getting a drivers license .

this is a bad idea

in your future you may have to work a less than ideal job where you need to drive a vehicle provided by your employers

you may someday need to move a longer distance than you can bike or you may need to travel a few towns or states over for something be it a dr or a meeting . it will be nice to be able to rent a car for that one day or rent a uhaul.

by all means live as car free or car lite as you can but dont be dumb about it

oh by the way im personally car lite since my girlfriend drives a car and the only time i ride in it is when were going somewhere together , thanks guys

+1,000 Tony! Good advice!

I think it's great that they're not getting their DLs. It shows they're committed to being part of the first post-auto generation.

i was reading the teenage car free thread ans was shocked that most of them were just going to bypass getting a drivers license .

this is a bad idea

...

by all means live as car free or car lite as you can but dont be dumb about it

To the kids: Do not be swayed by the above propaganda. If you admire an unlicensed lifestyle, embrace it. There will be costs. Of course there will be costs. If there weren't, everybody would already be doing it. The benefit is that your everyday life will be consonant with your beliefs. Test your beliefs and see where they take you.

Those so called kids will become our greatest generation ever. They'll have to be. We've signed their names to a lot of economic and environmental IOU's. They will spend their entire lives dealing with the issues we boomers never had the courage and intelligence to confront. I'm sure they appreciate all the wise and insightful advice from us they can get.

Those so called kids will become our greatest generation ever. They'll have to be. We've signed their names to a lot of economic and environmental IOU's. They will spend their entire lives dealing with the issues we boomers never had the courage and intelligence to confront. I'm sure they appreciate all the wise and insightful advice from us they can get.

Some of us boomers spent our lives working on the problems our parents left us, like economic and environmental IOUs. The rivers and air and land were dirtier around here when I was a kid. I hope these kids continue to make improvements.
The boomer generation cleaned up exhaust emissions to an extent maybe these car free kids can reduce auto dependence.

Listen to the OP kids. Having a license doesn't mean that you have to use it, and it's something that you may end up needing every once and a while.

Take this for example:
If I go out to the bar with friends, if they get wasted, and I am not, I can drive them home. With out a license I wouldn't be able to do that(legally).

In addition there is the occasional time, such as moving housing when you may want to be able to rent a truck for a day to get some heavy moving done.

I think it's great that they're not getting their DLs. It shows they're committed to being part of the first post-auto generation.

Thanks, Roody! I actually did get a license, but I never drive anymore. I won't renew it when it expires, either.

"Take this for example:
If I go out to the bar with friends, if they get wasted, and I am not, I can drive them home. With out a license I wouldn't be able to do that(legally)."

Ever hear of a taxi?

You can what if forever, but beleive it or not people somehow survived for millions of years without a driver's licence.

When I was in the Army, they wanted me to get a military driver's licence so I coiuld drive Army trucks only in case of emergencies. I failed the driving test. Why, because I was not ever going to be stuck in some motor pool. It was OK. People have a way of adapting to the situation at hand.

Have to drive? This seems very narrow minded...

So somebody never gets a drivers license...big deal. I have relatives who never driven in their life (my Mom is one of them) and they have done just fine.

Plenty of people born and raised in New York who choose to stay there never drive in their lifetime.

What about all the other people world wide who never even get near a car, let alone drive one?

You can what if forever, but beleive it or not people somehow survived for millions of years without a driver's licence.

When I was in the Army, they wanted me to get a military driver's licence so I coiuld drive Army trucks only in case of emergencies. I failed the driving test. Why, because I was not ever going to be stuck in some motor pool. It was OK. People have a way of adapting to the situation at hand.

A license is a potentially useful tool with a 1 time cost associated with it, as opposed to a car, which has re-occurring costs. There is no reason not to get one, besides making a statement, and many potential reasons why it may be useful at some point in the future.

heh love how you guys can tell these kids "sure go ahead and cripple yourself and reduce your employability" just because its how you choose to live. getting a license isn't doesn't mean daily driving.

but without a degree for a job that lets you sit on your butt all day you have about a half and half chance your going to have to drive at whatever job you get.

not all these kids are going to be able to live at their mommys until they can find the perfect job at age 40

most of them in fact live in the real world where people have to move for jobs and have to work places less than perfect doing things they don't exactly want to.

and not everyone lives in
new england chicago or socal wher public transport is available. theres no such thing as public transit around where I live and to move would require , you guessed it "driving" and theres more places like where I live than where you live.

but hey if they follow your advice you will probably get what you want "seeing that not many homeless people are driving these days" but hey at least your agenda gets fufilled.

I personally live very very car light so im not advocating go buy a hummer and drive to your mailbox to get the mail. im just saying use some common sense.

"Take this for example:
If I go out to the bar with friends, if they get wasted, and I am not, I can drive them home. With out a license I wouldn't be able to do that(legally)."

Ever hear of a taxi?

You can what if forever, but beleive it or not people somehow survived for millions of years without a driver's licence.

When I was in the Army, they wanted me to get a military driver's licence so I coiuld drive Army trucks only in case of emergencies. I failed the driving test. Why, because I was not ever going to be stuck in some motor pool. It was OK. People have a way of adapting to the situation at hand.

you take for granted that everyone everywhere has the same luxuries as you do. throught the mid west and central US taxies are limited to very large cities . where I live it cost 200 dollars for a taxi to come pick you up because it has to come from the nearest big city and you have to pay in advance over the phone with a credit card. and you go a few miles north and most people there have never seen a taxi in real life.

not everyone is like you and was raised in the perfect enviroment for license free life.

and once again the alternative to living here is to move which includes driving or paying a moving company to move your stuff and around here they have a 2000 dollar minimum for moving things out of the city

I have to agree with the original poster, I see no problem with living car free or car lite and having a driver's license.

-Nate

Common sense tells me not to sell out on my principals just to get a job I won't like. I'd rather live in a studio apt. in a less "classy" part of town while commuting by bike than take a "nice" place in the 'burbs and/or work someplace that wants to put me in a cage. Then again, given the option most "successful" people will choose life in exurbs over urban-renewal and gentrification... I guess car-culture creates more pervasive issues than just driving v. not-driving, and if you really want to take a stand, it's all or nothing.

Abstaining from personally owning and operating a motor vehicle isn't enough; stopping the trend means totally isolating yourself from the cycle of urban-sprawl that feeds car-culture and vice-versa. When you allow cars to enable businesses and people to de-centralize your city, you're contributing to a system that encourages waste of resources and space, which in turn causes inefficiency and inequality.

Urban-sprawl creates communities with de-facto segregation, and this in turn brings about juvenile-delinquincy in more affluent neighborhoods, and forces the youths in poorer neighborhoods to enlist in a lifetime of poverty where they will subside on the scraps handed to them from capitalist-controlled trickle-down economies.

Many people choose not to live in urban-centers because of crime-statistics. The truth is, crime is prevalent in de-centralized suburbs and exurbs as well; the only difference is that in those areas the crime is recreational, while in inner-cities it's an attempt to raise personal status enough to move away. Gentrification (enabled by defeating car-culture) will revitalize inner-cities, and so both of these reasons for crime will disappear in those areas.

-----------------------------------

So, while obtaining a drivers' license will potentially help a young person chase down "The American Dream" a little faster, it ultimately encourages a system that eats our cities from the inside out. As was said earlier, our generation won't have the luxury of trading our personal interests in the present for the good of everyone in the future; it's too late for that.

heh love how you guys can tell these kids "sure go ahead and cripple yourself and reduce your employability" just because its how you choose to live. getting a license isn't doesn't mean daily driving.

but without a degree for a job that lets you sit on your butt all day you have about a half and half chance your going to have to drive at whatever job you get.

not all these kids are going to be able to live at their mommys until they can find the perfect job at age 40

most of them in fact live in the real world where people have to move for jobs and have to work places less than perfect doing things they don't exactly want to.

and not everyone lives in
new england chicago or socal wher public transport is available. theres no such thing as public transit around where I live and to move would require , you guessed it "driving" and theres more places like where I live than where you live.

but hey if they follow your advice you will probably get what you want "seeing that not many homeless people are driving these days" but hey at least your agenda gets fufilled.

I personally live very very car light so im not advocating go buy a hummer and drive to your mailbox to get the mail. im just saying use some common sense.


Common sense? You might want to think on this one a little longer.

1) The vast majority of the working public does NOT have to drive as a requirement of their job.
2) The vast majority of those who do chose that job - it wasn't forced upon them.
3) Noone is forced to live in a town without public transportation (or an area of a town without it)
4) You do not have to drive to move.

I'm not saying they shouldn't get a license. I am, however, saying that most of your arguments are based upon incorrect assumptions.

Hey, I own a car too, but if I wanted to be permanently car-free within a month I could.

- put my house up for sale
- sell the cars
- locate a job in a more suitable location
- locate housing in a suitable location
- call a moving company to come pack my house
- call a cab to carry me to the airport, bus or train station

The inevitable retort is "not everyone can..."
Well, maybe not, but at some point in everyone's life they made a decision that lead them where they are today. You chose to be a traveling salesman, or a pizza delivery driver, or you chose to buy the house in the suburbs, or to stay in the small town.

If these people really wanted to change the way they lived, they could -- and they wouldn't consider it a sacrifice. They don't want to. I'm fine with that, but they should stop making excuses. Just say "i don't want to" and leave it at that.

good lord I had no idea I was responding to fundamentalist. wether its religion politics or a lifestyle choice your all the same with the same cult mentality. you could care less what happens to these kids this is just a opportunity for you to spam your lifestyle and attack anyone who has an opinion other than yours.

seriously from your responses I get visuals of you guys giggling everytime someone dies from a carbomb simply because it means theres one less car on earth.

being car free light is not a all or nothing assault on anyone who has anything to do with cars. theres no reason to even continue this conversation. its about the same as arguing religion with jerry farwell. or those nutjobs in kansas that protest funerals. or arguing politics with, well anyone.

fine kids don't learn to drive but please don't spit in my food when I stop at your drive thru cause I told you so. anyhow carry on

A license is a potentially useful tool with a 1 time cost associated with it, as opposed to a car, which has re-occurring costs. There is no reason not to get one, besides making a statement, and many potential reasons why it may be useful at some point in the future.
Depends on the area. In NC you HAVE TO have insurance to have a drivers' license. and supposedly to get insurance you have to have a vehicle. Otherwise it is stamped "Commercial Use Only" and there are penalties for using in a private vehicle.

Aaron:)

I got a license around sixteen. went through two junker cars, too, and all in a town (Ann Arbor MI) which Roody can confirm is NOT the sort of place you need a car in. It was nice to have, for awhile, place to make out with the girls and smoke reefer, before i got moved out on my own. Eventually moved to Chicago, sold the car to do it, never got another. The license expired 8 years ago. I've since moved from Chicago to Oakland, got a place near the BART, and do a mixed light-rail/bike commute to work. It's great, it works fine, no problem. I work as a microbiologist at an algae biofuels company; i'm not going to be spitting in anyone's McBurger anytime soon.

Basically, if you want to stay in the sticks, more power to you, and you might just need a car for that. But if you would prefer the exciting urban life in the large cities worth living in (New York, Chicago, SF Bay, Portland and Seattle being the only places in the US I'd personally want to live in), you don't ever need a license, nor should you waste time getting one if you don't want to.

If I had never gotten a license... it would have made no difference whatsoever in the important details of my life. Pretty much as soon as i moved out of the house i stopped driving, and don't intend to start. If I wanted to, though, I could.... get a drivers license! It's not hard to do, if it turns out you actually need one.

PS I think TonyCTattoo is SpecializedFan.

good lord I had no idea I was responding to fundamentalist. wether its religion politics or a lifestyle choice your all the same with the same cult mentality. you could care less what happens to these kids this is just a opportunity for you to spam your lifestyle and attack anyone who has an opinion other than yours.
...


What?!! I am "these kids," dude!

And how does you rationalizing your choices make you any better than me? (Don't answer that, it's rhetorical)






Have fun f***ing with our country's infrastructure and encouraging kids to continue the cycle.

in your future you may have to work a less than ideal job where you need to drive a vehicle provided by your employers


by all means live as car free or car lite as you can but dont be dumb about it

You Don't Get It.

TC tattoo, you are an artist. How many of your fellow artist have college degrees or even HS. Does that limit them in the employment? Yes, so. They still make a decent living. This is more of a limiting factor then a driver's licence. Also, how many of them have tattoos that are on their necks, faces or other places. These will limit your job choices alot more them not being able to drive a car. Think about that next time someone wants you to tattoo their neck, face whatever. I think you should talk them out of it because they are liminig theit job employment permently. You are right anybody can drive anytime but you know they can not remove a tat so easily.

good lord I had no idea I was responding to fundamentalist. wether its religion politics or a lifestyle choice your all the same with the same cult mentality. you could care less what happens to these kids this is just a opportunity for you to spam your lifestyle and attack anyone who has an opinion other than yours.

seriously from your responses I get visuals of you guys giggling everytime someone dies from a carbomb simply because it means theres one less car on earth.

being car free light is not a all or nothing assault on anyone who has anything to do with cars. theres no reason to even continue this conversation. its about the same as arguing religion with jerry farwell. or those nutjobs in kansas that protest funerals. or arguing politics with, well anyone.

fine kids don't learn to drive but please don't spit in my food when I stop at your drive thru cause I told you so. anyhow carry on


I'm sorry that you're unable to think outside your preconceptions.

Depends on the area. In NC you HAVE TO have insurance to have a drivers' license. and supposedly to get insurance you have to have a vehicle.
You sure about that insurance requirement just to have/hold a driver's license? I know you have to drive an insured car to take the driver's test, but the car owner's (usually a teenager's parent) insurance should fill that requirement. You mean car free people have to turn in their driver's licenses? Better check that "requirement" again.

I got my license at age 23 because of family pressure. They viewed driving as a necessity and expected me to do my fair share. I agreed.

I admire and applaud anyone who choses to resist such pressures. Life is easier if you have a driver's license, but the easy way is not always the right way.

Depends on the area. In NC you HAVE TO have insurance to have a drivers' license. and supposedly to get insurance you have to have a vehicle. Otherwise it is stamped "Commercial Use Only" and there are penalties for using in a private vehicle.

Aaron:)

Are you fricken kidding me? That rates a solid Lame on a scale of 1 to 10.

I'll add my two cents because I feel I have applicable experience. I'm 20 and I got my license at 17, and I've been car-free since August. My best friend is also 20 never got his license, and obviously has been car free forever.

It has been so convenient to be able to hop in someones car (the only time I drive since I don't own a car) to run quick needed errands, or at work to be able, when asked to deliver something, to be able to do it.

My friend and I have been in situations where because he can't drive has been a huge inconvenience. For example, out-of-county work training that's nearly impossible to bus to. Luckily he has a friend who'd be happy to drive him.

We've been in 3-person road trips where only 2 of us can drive. It kind of sucks not to have a license. While I don't feel he is, he kind of feels like a freeloader.

I'm not going into the morality of driving because you guy's are a little too angry. Seriously, can't we all just get along?

Hope this helps.
-Jai

You sure about that insurance requirement just to have/hold a driver's license? I know you have to drive an insured car to take the driver's test, but the car owner's (usually a teenager's parent) insurance should fill that requirement. You mean car free people have to turn in their driver's licenses? Better check that "requirement" again.

It varies from state to state. In California, a driver must be insured. http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs66thru68.htm Now there is no requirement that they must have a car. But the cost of a drivers only insurance is such that you pay almost as much for insurance alone as you would to buy a cheap car and insure it.

Arkansas is much more friendly. They only require that the car be insured.

It varies from state to state. In California, a driver must be insured. http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs66thru68.htm Now there is no requirement that they must have a car. But the cost of a drivers only insurance is such that you pay almost as much for insurance alone as you would to buy a cheap car and insure it.

Arkansas is much more friendly. They only require that the car be insured.

I don't think you are addressing the requirement that Wahoonc claimed. He stated that insurance was required to have a driver's license, period. Not just a requirement for insurance when driving a car. Big difference, since this thread is about the value of possessing a driver's license, not driving a car.

You know, its not that hard to get a drivers license. If you don't have one and then you find you need one for something semi-durable like a job, well, you go get one. It takes a day. Its not exactly a passport.

Myself, I don't own a car and let my license expire-- just got an ID. Yes, I did it out of principle. If I'm in a life or death situation and I'm the only one who can drive someone to the hospital-- I'm going to drive the available vehicle without a license and suffer the potential consequences. I doubt anyone would know the difference.

If I look like a "fundamentalist" then you're really out of your gourd.

Chuckie, your post just got me thinking:

They should totally teach bike-skills in public school, like drivers' ed but starting at a younger age. And also, make the class include mechanics and such.

You sure about that insurance requirement just to have/hold a driver's license? I know you have to drive an insured car to take the driver's test, but the car owner's (usually a teenager's parent) insurance should fill that requirement. You mean car free people have to turn in their driver's licenses? Better check that "requirement" again.

Yes I am sure...I LIVE in NC an hold a CDL with Hazmat endorsements. Insurance is required for ALL licenses (http://www.ncdot.org/dmv/driver_services/drivingpublic/requirements.html). Unfortunately the minimum insurance requirements are inadequate and IMHO are a joke.

Aaron:)

Chuckie, your post just got me thinking:

They should totally teach bike-skills in public school, like drivers' ed but starting at a younger age. And also, make the class include mechanics and such.

They used to teach bike skills in elementary school...about a hundred years ago...not really but I do recall them teaching when I was grade school back in the 60's. But we also walked or rode bikes to school and weren't ferried all over the place in a 5,000#+ SUV.

Aaron:)

Yes I am sure...I LIVE in NC an hold a CDL with Hazmat endorsements. Insurance is required for ALL licenses (http://www.ncdot.org/dmv/driver_services/drivingpublic/requirements.html). Unfortunately the minimum insurance requirements are inadequate and IMHO are a joke.

Aaron:)

Your reference only applies to the documentation necessary at the time of the first time issuance of a North Carolina Learner Permit or Driver License. It does not, by any normal interpretation, apply to a requirement to own a vehicle or maintain insurance just to hold a driver's license.

These "kids" are old enough to decide whether or not to get a driver's license. Neither side is wrong in this debate - it's just two different ways of looking at the situation. There is always a cost in being idealistic, I just wish more people had the guts to commit to their principles. Not having a driver's license is not that big of a deal. If the situation changes, then you can always take the driver's test and get a license. We're not talking sex change, plastic surgery, or facial tattoos here.

Your reference only applies to the documentation necessary at the time of the first time issuance of a North Carolina Learner Permit or Driver License. It does not, by any normal interpretation, apply to a requirement to own a vehicle or maintain insurance just to hold a driver's license.

Keep Reading it is required for renewals if the systems shows you have ever had a lapse of insurance, and if you dig into the statutes behind it you will find that they can suspend the license for failure to maintain insurance. This is IMHO why this state is so screwed up when it comes to licensing cars and people. According to several studies over 1/3 of the drivers on the road in NC on any given day, either have no license or no insurance, and probably another 1/3 are under insured (by carrying the state minimums) FWIW I inquired into a non-driver policy from my personal insurance company and they were unable to provide me with a quote. In this litigious society of ours liability insurance has become a necessity. My son borrowed on of my trucks and got in a slight fender bender, his fault. The insurance company was not wanting to pay the other party because he was not listed as a user on that vehicle, he had another car that he was listed on as primary operator, but it was insured through a different carrier. The insurance companies appear to be doing anything and everything they can to weasel out of paying a claim. If I did not have to maintain a license for work, I probably wouldn't bother with the hassle. Also if a 16 year old gets a license his parents insurance will go up. No it isn't costing him directly but it will cost his parents.

Aaron:)

One point of disagreement -- it is often cheaper and easier to get a license at age 18 than at age 16. So if you are going to hold out, I recommend sucking it up at 18, because way less time is involved.

i disagree with the OP

im 25 and have never had a DL
i put in four years in the air force with no problems
when i got out, i found a job close by my house and walked everywhere
then i moved to columbus and with the public transportaion + my bicycle its easy to get around without a DL and no job i have ever applied for required me to have one, just a state ID.

So if I sell my car, then tell my insurance company I have no car, that they'll no longer be seeing any of my $ (insurance is a rip-off anyway, IMO), the state will come and take my license away? Or will they mail me a letter threatening to take my car? Or will just they refuse to renew it... in 2012. :lol: Would they even be aware that I have no car and no insurance when (if) I go to renew it?


It's primarily an issue of getting a license. You have to show proof of liability coverage here to GET a license. I can't say for sure what they would do about your license if you dropped it. My guess is that they don't police that.

What they do watch are plates. If you cancel your insurance while you still have an active registration all hell will break loose, including substantial fines for a lapse of insurance.

Again, this all varies from state to state.

good lord I had no idea I was responding to fundamentalist. wether its religion politics or a lifestyle choice your all the same with the same cult mentality. you could care less what happens to these kids this is just a opportunity for you to spam your lifestyle and attack anyone who has an opinion other than yours.

seriously from your responses I get visuals of you guys giggling everytime someone dies from a carbomb simply because it means theres one less car on earth.

being car free light is not a all or nothing assault on anyone who has anything to do with cars. theres no reason to even continue this conversation. its about the same as arguing religion with jerry farwell. or those nutjobs in kansas that protest funerals. or arguing politics with, well anyone.

fine kids don't learn to drive but please don't spit in my food when I stop at your drive thru cause I told you so. anyhow carry on

Man you're pretty touchy for a troll. I see where some people disagreed with you, but so far you're the only one who's done any attacking. And I do mean so far.

In case you hadn't noticed, this is a carfree forum. You're certainly welcome to participate if you drive cars, but it's ignorant to come here and insult everybody who doesn't drive, or who wants to quit driving. We're not nutjobs, we know what we're doing and we know why we're doing it. So show a little respect, or else get lost.

Since 1989 or 1990, I've been required to have a valid driver's license and a reliable car for the jobs I've held. Without this requirement and if I lived in a larger community, I'd probably be car-free instead of car-light right now. Right now, I'd estimate 90 to 95 per cent of my driving is work-related.

my 2 cents,

Like a credit card if you never use it you have a great record.

If I needed a job with a DL fine I got the cleanest record in town or if someone needs a sober ride home.
Think of it as cpr

You sure about that insurance requirement just to have/hold a driver's license? I know you have to drive an insured car to take the driver's test, but the car owner's (usually a teenager's parent) insurance should fill that requirement. You mean car free people have to turn in their driver's licenses? Better check that "requirement" again.

That sounds very, very fishy to me.

Out here, as I understand it, insurance is on the vehicle plates, not on the driver's license. This means it's easy to have a license without owning a vehicle.

Out here, as I understand it, insurance is on the vehicle plates, not on the driver's license. This means it's easy to have a license without owning a vehicle.

I believe that is the case almost everywhere in the U.S. Any DMV action involving loss of driver's license for lack of insurance invariably will be due to issues involving the individual driving or owning an uninsured car.

I find all this talk rather funny, this is the "Living Car Free" forum after all. If you choose to live car free I can't see why you would even need a DL. I actually can't think of a time in the last 5 years when I needed mine, and the 5 years before that it was still not necessary. There seems to be some kind of power associated with a DL. Yes many jobs require you to have one, but the majority of jobs do not, and if you actually want to live car free, why would you ever apply for a job that requires you to drive?

These "kids" are old enough to decide whether or not to get a driver's license. Neither side is wrong in this debate - it's just two different ways of looking at the situation. There is always a cost in being idealistic, I just wish more people had the guts to commit to their principles. Not having a driver's license is not that big of a deal. If the situation changes, then you can always take the driver's test and get a license. We're not talking sex change, plastic surgery, or facial tattoos here.
Excellent! You'd think your post would end this discussion.....

Those so called kids will become our greatest generation ever. They'll have to be. We've signed their names to a lot of economic and environmental IOU's. They will spend their entire lives dealing with the issues we boomers never had the courage and intelligence to confront. I'm sure they appreciate all the wise and insightful advice from us they can get.

"We are the people we've been waiting for"

check out this 12 year old talking at the UN Earth Summit in 1992

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2g473JWAEg

don't listen anyone but your inner voice

most of the problems in the world today are because we don't trust our intuition ...

A license is a potentially useful tool with a 1 time cost associated with it, as opposed to a car, which has re-occurring costs. There is no reason not to get one, besides making a statement, and many potential reasons why it may be useful at some point in the future.

Just dont let the car-owning, (and insurance paying), parents or house mates know, since thier insurance will go up. It is like the car mongers can't get enough of your Beehind. If you keep picking up the soap you'll eventially believe that that you like it.