At the risk of sounding like an anti-capitalist, free-market hating snob, I can't help but feel like this cheapens Surly's brand. Yeah, the Motobecanes / Windsors / etc are decent enough budget frames. But there's no real company behind those designs-- they're the average stuff from China / Taiwan manufacturer catalogs.
While it's true that Surly's stuff is made in Asia (and, from what I've gathered, under ethically accountable conditions... is that also true for BikesDirect?), the designs aren't generic crap. They're the work of riders, of people actually spending time with the products and trying to push the envelope to make a little money go a long way in terms of functionality. Look at the Pugsley, the Karate Monkey, the Steamroller... all pioneers, more-or-less, in their class. Is putting those frames on the same page as a bunch of generic BikesDirect crud really doing justice to their designs? The hard work of those that designed and spec'd the frames?
I bet many times more heart and soul went into a Surly design than a neo-Motobecane / Windsor / etc. Thankfully BikesDirect can't undersell your LBS, or less-shady online retailers that sell Surly.
I have no idea what you could be talking about -- do you?
Is there someone in the USA bicycle industry offering more models of high grade steel bikes than BD does?
[hard to hear we are not a real company when we have been around longer than most USA bike sellers and employee over 100 people]
Is there someone in the USA bike industry selling more high grade steel bikes than BD? {hard to hear we are not pushing the envelop when we introduce more new models & designs than 90% of bike importers each year. There are several types of bikes we did before anyone else in the USA]
Is there anyone in the bike industry more solidly behind high grade steel than we are [other than Grant?] [hard to hear I have no interest in designing or riding bikes after 30 years of doing it]
Someone you have personal knowledge of that has designed more high grade steel bikes than I have for more assorted companies?
We have right now in addition to 15 bikes in production now in 4130, R520, and R853 - We have 12 new models in design & sample stage in R20, Platinum OX, R853 -- Adding to touring, commuting, track, sport road we have already; cyclo cross; 29er, hardtail 26 853 and more touring and track.
The fact that we sell lots of aluminum and carbon fiber bikes does not detract from our commitment or knowledge of high grade steel or Ti. And 30 years of experience in high grade steel design does not hurt either, I think:: but you may feel only young guys can do that.
In the next few years you and everyone else will find the highest grade production high grade steel frames and bikes coming from BD and BI. This is due to my interest in high grade steel and my long background with design of frames using steel. Right now we have more high grade steel than anyone I can think of in production bikes -- by 2010 we will have more high grade steel bike model than most companies have total models. {odd to hear our frames are standards from supplier catalog when I draw many myself]
Our biggest problem with high grade steel right now is that we sell out before we can get more. We are working hard to solve this by increasing our supply in both high grade steel and in Ti. {and yes, we do use the highest priced best producers in Taiwan on our R520, R853, POX, and Ti frames}
Hundreds of riders have posted on this forum alone on the quality and function of our high grade steel bikes. We are very happy to be able to supply top grade bikes at affordable prices.
On the question of Cyclo Cross; we are adding R853 and Ti for the coming season. Everyone can guess they wil be half the cost of equal bikes in bike shops. {of course, we will continue to have 5 or 6 models in Aluminum cyclo cross - but we will not be offering CF in cyclo cross}
I just thought a few of the misguided assumptions should be cleared up
glenng
12-19-07, 12:16 AM
I have no idea what you could be talking about -- do you?
Is there someone in the USA bicycle industry offering more models of high grade steel bikes than BD does?
[hard to hear we are not a real company when we have been around longer than most USA bike sellers and employee over 100 people]
Is there someone in the USA bike industry selling more high grade steel bikes than BD? {hard to hear we are not pushing the envelop when we introduce more new models & designs than 90% of bike importers each year. There are several types of bikes we did before anyone else in the USA]
Is there anyone in the bike industry more solidly behind high grade steel than we are [other than Grant?] [hard to hear I have no interest in designing or riding bikes after 30 years of doing it]
Someone you have personal knowledge of that has designed more high grade steel bikes than I have for more assorted companies?
We have right now in addition to 15 bikes in production now in 4130, R520, and R853 - We have 12 new models in design & sample stage in R20, Platinum OX, R853 -- Adding to touring, commuting, track, sport road we have already; cyclo cross; 29er, hardtail 26 853 and more touring and track.
The fact that we sell lots of aluminum and carbon fiber bikes does not detract from our commitment or knowledge of high grade steel or Ti. And 30 years of experience in high grade steel design does not hurt either, I think:: but you may feel only young guys can do that.
In the next few years you and everyone else will find the highest grade production high grade steel frames and bikes coming from BD and BI. This is due to my interest in high grade steel and my long background with design of frames using steel. Right now we have more high grade steel than anyone I can think of in production bikes -- by 2010 we will have more high grade steel bike model than most companies have total models. {odd to hear our frames are standards from supplier catalog when I draw many myself]
Our biggest problem with high grade steel right now is that we sell out before we can get more. We are working hard to solve this by increasing our supply in both high grade steel and in Ti. {and yes, we do use the highest priced best producers in Taiwan on our R520, R853, POX, and Ti frames}
Hundreds of riders have posted on this forum alone on the quality and function of our high grade steel bikes. We are very happy to be able to supply top grade bikes at affordable prices.
On the question of Cyclo Cross; we are adding R853 and Ti for the coming season. Everyone can guess they wil be half the cost of equal bikes in bike shops. {of course, we will continue to have 5 or 6 models in Aluminum cyclo cross - but we will not be offering CF in cyclo cross}
I just thought a few of the misguided assumptions should be cleared up
Don`t know, don`t care what all is said in the above post but my LBS sells the Surly Crosscheck for $100 less than bikes direct. I know this because I purchased the bike last month. It was not a haggle price, it was what the tag stated and I did not try to dicker. I get a waranty and service if my bike has a problem or gets out of adjustment. I am not a BD hater but I find it personally better to buy locally. I guess I`m just lucky. I`ll pay more for a bike to get good service. But in my case I get good service and save $100 buyin locally. I found its win,win,win buying locally. Here is is me and my bike on the first ride. No shill , no lies here. 100% truth with God as my witness. God this picture makes me look ugly but good enough for this thread.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/glenngertz/bicycles008.jpg
rickyaustin
12-19-07, 01:51 AM
Motobecane was in business for 60 years. I don't know how long Mike has been going, but not that long.
.
Motobecane is a company with a heritage, but is dead, and has been since the 80s.
Motobecane USA (the company now being sold under that name) simply now owns the rights to the name, and has ZERO relation to the company you are referring to.
I'm not dogging the quality/lack of quality of their bikes - I've never seen one and can't comment on it - simply just clearing the air on the 'heritage' issue.
Surly's heritage is more pronounced than Motobecane USA's.
I own a Cross Check - I was surprised when they popped on Bikesdirect. I just didn't feel like Surly fit the customer they were going after. Bikesdirect offers good money value, and the Surly was no cheaper thru them than your local shop. The appeal of BD is that it's cheaper than the local shop, so I didn't see how Surly fit in.
dragonmg
12-19-07, 05:26 AM
I have no idea what you could be talking about -- do you?
Is there someone in the USA bicycle industry offering more models of high grade steel bikes than BD does?
[hard to hear we are not a real company when we have been around longer than most USA bike sellers and employee over 100 people]
Is there someone in the USA bike industry selling more high grade steel bikes than BD? {hard to hear we are not pushing the envelop when we introduce more new models & designs than 90% of bike importers each year. There are several types of bikes we did before anyone else in the USA]
Is there anyone in the bike industry more solidly behind high grade steel than we are [other than Grant?] [hard to hear I have no interest in designing or riding bikes after 30 years of doing it]
Someone you have personal knowledge of that has designed more high grade steel bikes than I have for more assorted companies?
We have right now in addition to 15 bikes in production now in 4130, R520, and R853 - We have 12 new models in design & sample stage in R20, Platinum OX, R853 -- Adding to touring, commuting, track, sport road we have already; cyclo cross; 29er, hardtail 26 853 and more touring and track.
The fact that we sell lots of aluminum and carbon fiber bikes does not detract from our commitment or knowledge of high grade steel or Ti. And 30 years of experience in high grade steel design does not hurt either, I think:: but you may feel only young guys can do that.
In the next few years you and everyone else will find the highest grade production high grade steel frames and bikes coming from BD and BI. This is due to my interest in high grade steel and my long background with design of frames using steel. Right now we have more high grade steel than anyone I can think of in production bikes -- by 2010 we will have more high grade steel bike model than most companies have total models. {odd to hear our frames are standards from supplier catalog when I draw many myself]
Our biggest problem with high grade steel right now is that we sell out before we can get more. We are working hard to solve this by increasing our supply in both high grade steel and in Ti. {and yes, we do use the highest priced best producers in Taiwan on our R520, R853, POX, and Ti frames}
Hundreds of riders have posted on this forum alone on the quality and function of our high grade steel bikes. We are very happy to be able to supply top grade bikes at affordable prices.
On the question of Cyclo Cross; we are adding R853 and Ti for the coming season. Everyone can guess they wil be half the cost of equal bikes in bike shops. {of course, we will continue to have 5 or 6 models in Aluminum cyclo cross - but we will not be offering CF in cyclo cross}
I just thought a few of the misguided assumptions should be cleared up
For the sake of civility I'll take it easy here, but do you care to back any of your above claims with facts? Which model of bike did you introduce to market before any other manufacturer? Which is ground-breaking in its originality? Which is not "cookie-cutter?"
Where are all these "high grade" steel bikes for sale on your website? I don't see one model. Does every model and size completely sell through too quickly to post them up? I remember seeing a steel model or two in the past, but to claim 15 and 12 different models of "high-grade" steel bikes are currently in production I see as quite a stretch seeing as how there are zero currently listed.
For the record, Jamis has plenty of steel bikes available right now - and has never had a problem with supply on their great steel bikes. I guess they just forecast better?
bonechilling
12-19-07, 07:09 AM
Where are all these "high grade" steel bikes for sale on your website? I don't see one model. Does every model and size completely sell through too quickly to post them up? I remember seeing a steel model or two in the past, but to claim 15 and 12 different models of "high-grade" steel bikes are currently in production I see as quite a stretch seeing as how there are zero currently listed.
At a glance, I counted nine steel bikes on the road bike page alone. Only one was what I would consider "high-grade" steel (Reynolds 853), with everything else being regular Reynolds 520/4130 (which is, of course, what Surly uses). He has also made it known that they plan on introducing a line of TrueTemper steel track, road and cross frames in the next few months.
Sawtooth
12-19-07, 09:03 AM
I am not really after heart and soul. If I wanted that, I would avoid any company that sources frames from mass-producers and have a frame custom built. I am after performance for the $, pure and simple. From what I hear, the phantom cross performs very well for the money. And we all know about how well the Surly reviews, regardless of where it is sourced from. I don't understand how purchasing the same mass-produced frame from a brick and mortar store gives it any more "heart and soul".
As I have said in other threads, as long as BD stands behind their product and makes it clear that there is some assembly and tune-up work needed upon arrival, then I fully support their business model. Bully for them! More good bikes to more folks.....I don't see anything wrong with that at all. I am not driven by some bleeding heart moral principle that demands that I support the LBS at all costs.
That being said, I would not buy a bike online for the same price I could get it for locally. There has to be some offset giving up face to face service. Also, I think it is fair to say that BD tends to market toward the entire possible bike purchasing market, rather than the higher end like brick and mortar shops tend to do. I know beginners who have $250 bikes from BD and super hard-guy racers on my team who are riding XTR equipped bikes from BD; they all love their bikes. I think this is great. Haven't we all been crying for years that the bike retailers have been ignoring the lower priced segment of the market (especially on road bikes)? I love seeing BD bikes out and about because I know it is an example of a person getting a better bike than they otherwise would have for the $.
The marketing practice could be fodder for discussion. It is not fair business to say that the windsor hour sold by BD is the exact same bike upon which the record was set; as the marketing seems to imply. Nor is it necessarily true that 4130/reynolds 520 is a high end steel frame as long as you are talking to high end buyers. But, to someone who may otherwise purchase their bike at a department store, 4130 is, in fact, relatively high end steel and is a far cry better than what they otherwise might have bought. But revitalizing brands under different management is not something that BD dreamed up. It is an ethical business model in that sense.
Those who are most vocal against BD are those who do not own one of their bikes. So unless they are argueing about the morallity, efficiency, or economics of the businesss model, their opinions about the bikes are null and void, imo. The bottom line is that almost every person I talk to who is riding a BD bike (and I always ask) is very pleased with the bike for the price. I do not own a BD bike (my preference is always to by a high end used bike), but I would not hessitate to buy one, understanding that I would have to tune it when I got it (just as I do my high end used bikes).
And for what it is worth....I think it is wonderful that BD is represented here on the forum (I would like to see more participation in other discussions besides just defending their product, however (look to Sheldon Brown from Harris cyclery for a role model; that guy gives a lot to this online community)). In fact, this would probably go a long way toward legitimizing the business in a lot of forum members'minds. The big fear that keeps a lot of cyclists from buying online is that they would be buying from someone who is not a cyclist and really cares little about their interests as cyclists, other than maknig money off of them (I also know brick and mortar owners who are like that). Being someone who contributes to common cyclist discussion here on the forums would go a long way toward making people think you are a cyclist as well as a savy businessman. But as long as BD is represented here as such, it is nice to have you here. I would always rather hear your point of view from you as opposed to speculating on what you might be thinking.
I personally think that BD could explode their high end sales by sponsoring some teams in key areas with high visibility. These high end motobecanes are really decent machines that seem not to hold riders back at all. Seeing real "hard-guy" riders on Motobecanes would do a lot to revitalize the integrity of the brand. In the end, most cyclists do not care where the bike is from or how it was made, they want it to perform. If that were not so, Giant would not be doing so well.
I don't see much fundamental difference between what BD is doing and what Tony at IRO is doing (and we on this forum seem to LOVE IRO). I guess Tony has his own brand which gives him credibility in that it does not appear that he is trying to sell a relatively generic frame as something that it is not. Tony has a wonderful reputation for being a real person and offering outstanding service. But fundamentally, they are both importing quality generic bikes and badging them with their brands.
I have a feeling that BD bikes would sell best in the long run if you were to pick one brand (maybe even a new brand) and develop only that brand. Those folks who have an emotional response to brands like Motobecane and Windsor are fading away, in my opinion. Those brands now are being recognized (at least in the enthusiast community) as connected to the Bikes Direct controversy and as maybe having been marketed as something they are not. Having your own brand like IRO has done might really help to build legitmacy. Tony makes no questionable pretenses....he sells basic high quality imported generic-ish frames under his own brand.
Forgive me...I am an MBA and am always thinking about these things. I have been fascinated by BD for years and have often thougth that they could do so much more to build their credibility to match their solid (at least by my friends' accounts) products.
dragonmg
12-19-07, 10:22 AM
At a glance, I counted nine steel bikes on the road bike page alone. Only one was what I would consider "high-grade" steel (Reynolds 853), with everything else being regular Reynolds 520/4130 (which is, of course, what Surly uses). He has also made it known that they plan on introducing a line of TrueTemper steel track, road and cross frames in the next few months.
I did miss that 853 Mercier, I stand corrected. The Surly's are not BD design. And 520 steel frames are available from quite a few manufacturers. So if BD is stating that by having one pretty nice high-end steel road bike in their line that they are leaders in steel production and design - that is an interesting stretch.
BD needs to be more careful with their statements in here. Many shops and industry folk have better things to do with their time than poke holes through their many outlandish statements. Luckily for everybody things are slow in the shop here and I have nothing better to do with my time today :) Must be because our bikes cost twice that of BD!
bonechilling
12-19-07, 12:10 PM
I did miss that 853 Mercier, I stand corrected. The Surly's are not BD design. And 520 steel frames are available from quite a few manufacturers. So if BD is stating that by having one pretty nice high-end steel road bike in their line that they are leaders in steel production and design - that is an interesting stretch.
Maybe you can make a semantic argument that 520 isn't "high end," but as Sawtooth points out, there is no consensus on exactly what "high end steel" is, it actually 520 is high-end for many consumers. He never said he was the only maker producing steel bikes, just that his company produced many steel frames, definitely more than most companies. I haven't seen any numbers, but they almost certainly are a leader in selling steel bikes, and will be more-so if they actually introduce a line of TrueTemper track, cross and road frames at their usual price range.
Nowhere was it stated or implied that Bikes Direct designed the Surlys, nor that they only sell steel bikes that they design themselves, so I'm incredulous that you'd make that the thrust of your argument.
BD needs to be more careful with their statements in here. Many shops and industry folk have better things to do with their time than poke holes through their many outlandish statements. Luckily for everybody things are slow in the shop here and I have nothing better to do with my time today :) Must be because our bikes cost twice that of BD!
Are you kidding? Not only was your argument weak, but if you think that some clown at a shop in who-knows-where worries the multi-millionaire owner of a major bike company, you're sorely mistaken.
nowheels
12-19-07, 12:29 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but 520 is the weldable version of 531? Which in many peoples opnions was a high quality tubing.
bonechilling
12-19-07, 12:32 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but 520 is the weldable version of 531? Which in many peoples opnions was a high quality tubing.
No, 520 is just Reynolds' brand of generic 4130 steel. Good stuff, but nothing to write home over.
nowheels
12-19-07, 12:41 PM
No, 520 is just Reynolds' brand of generic 4130 steel. Good stuff, but nothing to write home over.
I've had it in a couple of frames over the years and have always been pleased with it. One was even a custom frame built by Havnoonian cycles......
As far as BD goes..... they provide a service that works for a lot of people. I personally like to build up my own frames.... so it has never really appealed to me. I was a bit suprised to see Surly bikes there for sale..... but the prices seem to be about the same if you buy online or order from the shop.
dragonmg
12-19-07, 05:35 PM
Maybe you can make a semantic argument that 520 isn't "high end," but as Sawtooth points out, there is no consensus on exactly what "high end steel" is, it actually 520 is high-end for many consumers. He never said he was the only maker producing steel bikes, just that his company produced many steel frames, definitely more than most companies. I haven't seen any numbers, but they almost certainly are a leader in selling steel bikes, and will be more-so if they actually introduce a line of TrueTemper track, cross and road frames at their usual price range.
Nowhere was it stated or implied that Bikes Direct designed the Surlys, nor that they only sell steel bikes that they design themselves, so I'm incredulous that you'd make that the thrust of your argument.
Are you kidding? Not only was your argument weak, but if you think that some clown at a shop in who-knows-where worries the multi-millionaire owner of a major bike company, you're sorely mistaken.
Your man's words were so rich with BS that I felt overcome with the urge to question his statements. And since I'm a clown I guess that makes you a shill - why you getting all emotional about this?
I'll wait to hear the answers from the horse's mouth.
Brian
12-19-07, 05:39 PM
Good specs? Fair price?
' am not a shill, just curious if its a good deal.
Thanks!
Anyone remember this?
bonechilling
12-19-07, 06:04 PM
Your man's words were so rich with BS that I felt overcome with the urge to question his statements. And since I'm a clown I guess that makes you a shill - why you getting all emotional about this?
I'll wait to hear the answers from the horse's mouth.
God, this is so stupid as to hardly warrant a response, but here goes. I wasn't emotional about anything, in fact I would argue that your arguments were centered on emotion, since they certainly had no grounding in fact. I don't give two ****s about Bikes Direct, I don't own any of their products and I likely never will. I just know a canard when I see one.
dragonmg
01-20-08, 05:10 AM
We have right now in addition to 15 bikes in production now in 4130, R520, and R853 - We have 12 new models in design & sample stage in R20, Platinum OX, R853 -- Adding to touring, commuting, track, sport road we have already; cyclo cross; 29er, hardtail 26 853 and more touring and track.
Still waiting....yawn. Hmm, the Surly's seem to be disappearing?
bikesdirect_com
01-20-08, 02:01 PM
For the sake of civility I'll take it easy here, but do you care to back any of your above claims with facts? Which model of bike did you introduce to market before any other manufacturer? Which is ground-breaking in its originality? Which is not "cookie-cutter?"
Where are all these "high grade" steel bikes for sale on your website? I don't see one model. Does every model and size completely sell through too quickly to post them up? I remember seeing a steel model or two in the past, but to claim 15 and 12 different models of "high-grade" steel bikes are currently in production I see as quite a stretch seeing as how there are zero currently listed.
For the record, Jamis has plenty of steel bikes available right now - and has never had a problem with supply on their great steel bikes. I guess they just forecast better?
I have listed on this site several things done first by my companies -- in detail.
one example: the biggest selling type of bike in the past 15 years -- the 'comfort bike'; I designed and imported from Canada 3 years before any other brand in the USA
-- after 30 years of doing this - there are plenty of other examples; that one just made me the most money [although I did very well with the full alloy rust proof cruiser for the 4 years I had it before anyone else made one -- several of the top companies freely admit they knocked off our original]
The Serpens has 853
Corvus and Galaxy and Kilo TT and ELLE and Cafe Noir are 520
Messenger, Tourist, Hour, Super Mirage are 4130
several others that are out of stock
plus several more coming this fall - including 853 mountain and 4130 CX
a couple more in platinum OX
we use the same steel frame builder as Surly, Jamis, and Bianchi
as a national direct seller; we can afford to design lots of nitch bikes that other brands ignore
edzo
01-20-08, 02:24 PM
like ANY of this matters
STFUAR
Sawtooth
01-20-08, 09:02 PM
Hey Bikesdirect....while I, personally, may respect you and your business. You will never win the hearts and minds of most forum members if you only log on here to defend your products. It is just not how it works around here.
Ziemas
01-20-08, 11:56 PM
^^^
I'm going to disagree with you and say that it helps greatly to have a representative (okay, the owner) of a bicycle company answering questions about their products. Mike actually answers peoples questions and helps them out, something I haven't seen from any other large seller of bicycles on BF. Thanks for the input, Mike.
P.S. I don't own a BD bike and I do think naming then after old brands stinks, although I would consider owning one in the future.
bikesdirect_com
01-21-08, 01:56 AM
I own a Cross Check - I was surprised when they popped on Bikesdirect. I just didn't feel like Surly fit the customer they were going after. Bikesdirect offers good money value, and the Surly was no cheaper thru them than your local shop. The appeal of BD is that it's cheaper than the local shop, so I didn't see how Surly fit in.
I agree with you
and have been thinking about this a lot.
Surly has price controls; so we can not discount like we would normally do.
So the question becomes, why not just get a bike with the same specs and a different name that we can sell for 50% less?
Our main appeal is price, then selection. {we do offer a lot of bikes that can not be easily found in stores}
But Price is a driver for online sales. So a cross bike with the same spec and at half the money might really be a big seller. This would probably be true for track, touring, racing, hardtails and whatever.
We have to think carefully about selling price controlled items.
bikesdirect_com
01-21-08, 02:01 AM
At a glance, I counted nine steel bikes on the road bike page alone. Only one was what I would consider "high-grade" steel (Reynolds 853), with everything else being regular Reynolds 520/4130 (which is, of course, what Surly uses). He has also made it known that they plan on introducing a line of TrueTemper steel track, road and cross frames in the next few months.
Just as a matter of interest; the trem 'high grade steel' means 4130 or better. It has always meant that in the industry that I can remember. Low grade stell has meant hi-ten - like 1020, 2040, one of the carbon steels.
There are a lot of commonly accepted terms with definitions in the bike business; which not everyone who is a cyclist can be expected to know.
cs1
01-21-08, 02:34 AM
Hey Bikesdirect....while I, personally, may respect you and your business. You will never win the hearts and minds of most forum members if you only log on here to defend your products. It is just not how it works around here.
Lets see, how many times has the president of Trek, Cannondale or Orbea posted here? Wait, never you say. That's right, they never have and never will. Yet, everyone loves them. If it wasn't for Lance Armstrong, Trek would just be another cookie cutter brand.
Tim
Unagidon
01-21-08, 07:37 AM
I agree with you
and have been thinking about this a lot.
Surly has price controls; so we can not discount like we would normally do.
So the question becomes, why not just get a bike with the same specs and a different name that we can sell for 50% less?
Our main appeal is price, then selection. {we do offer a lot of bikes that can not be easily found in stores}
But Price is a driver for online sales. So a cross bike with the same spec and at half the money might really be a big seller. This would probably be true for track, touring, racing, hardtails and whatever.
We have to think carefully about selling price controlled items.
Mike - with all the animosity behind your use of Motobecane/Bottechia, etc., is there value in creating new brands? I'm not sure how much sales you get from brand recognition of old brands, but at least among the bike forum crowd, marketing the bikes under your own brand - whatever you decide to call it - should kill a lot of the negative perceptions.
From a marketing perspective, I'm unclear why you carry the Surly. Bikesdirect = bikes at good prices. The Kestrel's you sold over Christmas achieved that. The Surly, however, is basically sold at the same price as brick & mortars. It almost creates confusion over what BD is trying to offer.
bikesdirect_com
01-21-08, 08:15 AM
Mike - with all the animosity behind your use of Motobecane/Bottechia, etc., is there value in creating new brands? I'm not sure how much sales you get from brand recognition of old brands, but at least among the bike forum crowd, marketing the bikes under your own brand - whatever you decide to call it - should kill a lot of the negative perceptions.
From a marketing perspective, I'm unclear why you carry the Surly. Bikesdirect = bikes at good prices. The Kestrel's you sold over Christmas achieved that. The Surly, however, is basically sold at the same price as brick & mortars. It almost creates confusion over what BD is trying to offer.
There is little 'animosity' in the non forum world and not that much here.
Most people understand the Raleigh, Bianchi, Schwinn, GT, Masi, etc stories - and do not see it as an issue. So what if we get an agreement with Bottecchia Italy and use their name and art? This does not make the bikes bad nor good - specs make the bikes; prices make the value.
We do own several other names and I will have a new URL called todayscyclist up about a year from now; selling an assortment of different brand names. With a phone line for those that are not happy with email and need to talk before buying. The brands names sold will be mine - mostly.
Surly is a special case and might be a mistake. I do not sell off list if the supplier asks that I do not. We may find in the future it is better to have bikes with the same specs at half the price. Most customers will probably prefer that; although some may not ~~ as they may be focused on brand name instead of performance for the price.
Our continued quest is getting people to focus on value. Seems like that would be easy; but it is more complicated than one might guess.
Always fine-tuning the system [thus the addition of todayscyclist]
But the question of Motobecane, Mercier, Windsor, Bottecchia, etc brands names has been clearly decided by our customers. By far, the vote is: they like the names. And, of course, 8 or 10 write-ups a each year on Motobecanes does not hurt; not to mention all the Motos on the road as rolling ads; and all the previous customers who want another one.
dragonmg
01-21-08, 08:39 AM
I agree with you
and have been thinking about this a lot.
Surly has price controls; so we can not discount like we would normally do.
So the question becomes, why not just get a bike with the same specs and a different name that we can sell for 50% less?
Our main appeal is price, then selection. {we do offer a lot of bikes that can not be easily found in stores}
But Price is a driver for online sales. So a cross bike with the same spec and at half the money might really be a big seller. This would probably be true for track, touring, racing, hardtails and whatever.
We have to think carefully about selling price controlled items.
So your punishment to Surly for dropping you as a dealer is that you're going to rip off their Cross Check model with one of your own direct-only cookie-cutters? Very sad.
bikesdirect_com
01-21-08, 08:55 AM
you're going to rip off their Cross Check model with one of your own direct-only cookie-cutters? .
Any high grade steel cross bike we do; which will be a Mercier by the way; will be higher level than a Cross Check. Surly quality is great, but my spec will use higher grade tubing and some better specs.
I am finding there are many more customers that want Platinum OX or 853 than I thought. Of course, many of these may go to the Moto Cross in Ti -- but there does still seem to be a nice market for the higher lever steel frames.
And, of course, our on-line customers are those that enjoy 'direct-only' prices, selection, and value. And since we also understand Cyclo Cross is becoming more popular we are adding 6 models to the 3 we mainly sell now. SS steel; high-grade steel multi-speed, Ti version, disc brake aluminum version, lower end AL at about $399, and another AL but with Sram. That should make 9 or so assorted CX bikes by next season [starting in August].
I love cyclo cross and look forward to offering a big selection in frame materials, components and price points. Also as we have had requests for big ones - we will add some 64cm ones too for the really tall riders.
I would love to hear any other ideas on other interesting models.
MillCreek
01-21-08, 12:56 PM
Oh boy, am I still waiting for the Fantom Cross in titanium!
bikesdirect_com
01-21-08, 03:35 PM
Oh boy, am I still waiting for the Fantom Cross in titanium!
In the works
Sample should be in about 6 weeks from now
Production model in about September
Should be tested by Magazines this Fall
we are all excited about it
MillCreek
01-21-08, 03:39 PM
Please be sure to post some pictures when you get the prototype!
Unagidon
01-21-08, 03:54 PM
There is little 'animosity' in the non forum world and not that much here.
Most people understand the Raleigh, Bianchi, Schwinn, GT, Masi, etc stories - and do not see it as an issue. So what if we get an agreement with Bottecchia Italy and use their name and art? This does not make the bikes bad nor good - specs make the bikes; prices make the value.
Our continued quest is getting people to focus on value. Seems like that would be easy; but it is more complicated than one might guess.
Always fine-tuning the system [thus the addition of todayscyclist]
But the question of Motobecane, Mercier, Windsor, Bottecchia, etc brands names has been clearly decided by our customers. By far, the vote is: they like the names. And, of course, 8 or 10 write-ups a each year on Motobecanes does not hurt; not to mention all the Motos on the road as rolling ads; and all the previous customers who want another one.
Mike - Being a marketing guy and having worked in brand management for many years, of course I understand the transaction of brands. However, I do feel there is quite a bit of "animosity" for many people in these forums towards BD. And being a marketing guy, I guess I would just gauge whether that animosity nets in postive or negative ROI. :D
I just think that most people who buy your bikes and knows BD know that what you're selling is value. I argue that it would be better business in the long run to establish one strong BD brand that stands for value - not a brand that people have so much attachment to - and establish BD as a branded company instead of a company that "markets" old brand names. As you say, the frame/components make the bike - the brand is just a sticker. Why not eliminate the animosity by changing stickers? Also, I haven't done any studies, but I doubt there is high brand recognition for some of the old brands you market outside of the core road biking crowd. Enough of my unsubstantiated business philosophy.
I know I'm currently looking around for a cro-moly single speed CX/commuter bike - something like the Bianchi San Jose. Almost pulled the trigger from an ebay deal, but was a little too slow. It appears that there is greater interest in single speeds these days and a resurgence of stainless steel. Any thoughts here? Surely it should be easy to build...
bikesdirect_com
01-21-08, 04:22 PM
Mike - Being a marketing guy and having worked in brand management for many years, of course I understand the transaction of brands. However, I do feel there is quite a bit of "animosity" for many people in these forums towards BD. And being a marketing guy, I guess I would just gauge whether that animosity nets in postive or negative ROI. :D
I just think that most people who buy your bikes and knows BD know that what you're selling is value. I argue that it would be better business in the long run to establish one strong BD brand that stands for value - not a brand that people have so much attachment to - and establish BD as a branded company instead of a company that "markets" old brand names. As you say, the frame/components make the bike - the brand is just a sticker. Why not eliminate the animosity by changing stickers? Also, I haven't done any studies, but I doubt there is high brand recognition for some of the old brands you market outside of the core road biking crowd. Enough of my unsubstantiated business philosophy.
I know I'm currently looking around for a cro-moly single speed CX/commuter bike - something like the Bianchi San Jose. Almost pulled the trigger from an ebay deal, but was a little too slow. It appears that there is greater interest in single speeds these days and a resurgence of stainless steel. Any thoughts here? Surely it should be easy to build...
Thanks
The buyers we have run the full spectrum and include some who really like brands like Motobecane and Bottecchia. We have tested this and know the value. The brand recognition of Motobecane is rather high; and that is re-enforced by 8 to 10 magazine articles per year. Many reviews on Motobecane by the press and riders keep the interest in Motobecane growing. Lots of top unsponsored riders use Motos; and that does not hurt either.
However, some buyers like other brands and we intend to expand our offerings. That will be the point of our new site 'todayscyclist' -- which will include several brands that have little or no history.
You are correct; single speed interest is increasing. We sell about 6 SS models right now. We are adding a cyclo cross called the Fantom Cross Uno for next cyclo cross season. Our price will be about $349 or $399 - that is our target. Fantom Cross Uno will be 4130 steel.
We are going to do a lot as frame only too in SS
those will be mainly higher grade steel
I am always open to ideas on this type product; but it takes about 6 months to 9 months to develop any model. It is taking over a year to get things ready to open todayscyclist URL
thanks for your interest
mike
bikesdirect_com
01-21-08, 04:27 PM
Please be sure to post some pictures when you get the prototype!
Will do
I am very interested in this - as I like the idea of upper-end cyclo-cross in Ti better than in CF
Spec will be a lot like our Cross Pro [which always sells out almost before we get it]
Target price around $1600 with very nice Ti frame and very nice components.
Will have canti brakes - but disc ready frame & fork
popsicleian
01-21-08, 06:39 PM
You are correct; single speed interest is increasing. We sell about 6 SS models right now. We are adding a cyclo cross called the Fantom Cross Uno for next cyclo cross season. Our price will be about $349 or $399 - that is our target. Fantom Cross Uno will be 4130 steel.
Any idea how much the geared steel cross bike is going to cost? A ballpark number would help...
slopvehicle
01-22-08, 12:57 AM
love how this turned into a bikesdirect feelgood love-in product placement thread
wompwomp
01-22-08, 01:15 AM
love how this turned into a bikesdirect feelgood love-in product placement thread
Rick Reilly (those who are unfamiliar: best current sportswriter in the English language) once wrote his entire "Back Page" section of Sports Illustrated on how Nike was killing everything, was negative for sports, negative for athletes, negative for budding athletes, negative for retired athletes, awful for physical fitness in america, killing the economy, forcing kids out of schools and into the pros, and so on and so forth
And what did Mark Parker, then CEO, do when reading this article?
He framed it, and put it on the wall of his office.
(are you looking for "no such thing as bad publicity," maybe?)
bikesdirect_com
01-22-08, 02:34 AM
Any idea how much the geared steel cross bike is going to cost? A ballpark number would help...
Our target is a nice well-equipped cross with Platinum OX frame for about $599
I might consider a super spec'd version in 853 at $899 -- but I am thinking even at $1599 the Ti may kill the 853 - Ti is rather bling and people love really like steel -- LOVE Ti
bikesdirect_com
01-22-08, 02:38 AM
Rick Reilly (those who are unfamiliar: best current sportswriter in the English language) once wrote his entire "Back Page" section of Sports Illustrated on how Nike was killing everything, was negative for sports, negative for athletes, negative for budding athletes, negative for retired athletes, awful for physical fitness in america, killing the economy, forcing kids out of schools and into the pros, and so on and so forth
And what did Mark Parker, then CEO, do when reading this article?
He framed it, and put it on the wall of his office.
(are you looking for "no such thing as bad publicity," maybe?)
Great Story - I love it
I'm going to look for that article
sfcrossrider
01-22-08, 06:42 AM
Oh boy, am I still waiting for the Fantom Cross in titanium!
+1 The Fantom cross is a great bike.
What's with all the BD hate? I'm glad someone is giving cyclists a lower cost choice to try other types of riding out.
BTW, I bought my Surly as a frame in 1998 (first year and batch).
shapelike
01-22-08, 06:58 AM
Our target is a nice well-equipped cross with Platinum OX frame for about $599
I might consider a super spec'd version in 853 at $899 -- but I am thinking even at $1599 the Ti may kill the 853 - Ti is rather bling and people love really like steel -- LOVE Ti
Please make the head tubes long enough on the cross bikes ... please.
bikesdirect_com
01-22-08, 07:08 AM
Please make the head tubes long enough on the cross bikes ... please.
do you find HT to low for racing?
or for commuting/touring
the steel XC we will assume less racers; more ultitity
Ti and upper AL - we assume more racers
InternetDisease
01-22-08, 02:12 PM
maybe I am the only one who cares, but please make the headsets non-integrated, at least on the high-end bikes. people buying Ti frames are buying them as near-lifetime investments, so it seems counter-intuitive to use a headtube design that will likely fail before the rest of the bike.
serac
01-23-08, 11:01 PM
Our target is a nice well-equipped cross with Platinum OX frame for about $599
I might consider a super spec'd version in 853 at $899 -- but I am thinking even at $1599 the Ti may kill the 853 - Ti is rather bling and people love really like steel -- LOVE Ti
Thanks for the choices. I'm waiting in the wings for a Ti cross, disc compatible. An inexpensive SS is tempting too.
+1 on ditching integrated headsets.
cs1
01-24-08, 03:20 AM
do you find HT to low for racing?
or for commuting/touring
the steel XC we will assume less racers; more ultitity
Ti and upper AL - we assume more racers
Let me start by saying I'm not a racer. One of the biggest problems, IMO, is threadless headsets. While they are easy to set up and cheap to produce, you are very limited on handlebar height. The only way around it is to make the HT longer. I think that's what the other poster was getting at.
Lots of drop on a race bike is OK. For us mortals, fit becomes a major problem.
I almost pulled the trigger on one of your cross bikes last year. Aluminum frames are what stopped me. Can't wait until you get a steel version.
Tim
bikesdirect_com
01-24-08, 04:32 AM
Thanks for all input
this all makes sense; a more comfortable cyclo cross
of course, a lot of the commuter / tourists we sell to go for the Windsor Tourist -- but CX bikes are a bit more 'hip' and a more comfy one seems like a good idea
Gromit
01-24-08, 06:32 AM
Our target is a nice well-equipped cross with Platinum OX frame for about $599. I might consider a super spec'd version in 853 at $899
super spec'd version - now you're talking :beer: I'm certainly interested in that.
sfcrossrider
01-24-08, 07:39 AM
A single speed, ti 29er would be sweet too magic bike man. :o
shapelike
01-24-08, 07:45 AM
do you find HT to low for racing?
or for commuting/touring
Short headtubes are bad in general on a cross bike, but feel the worst during races.
On a "medium/55cm" frame I look for a headtube of about 145mm (integrated headset) or 135mm (conventional threadless). Just when in doubt, make it longer - give the toptube a bit of slop if you're concerned about standover height - the increased headtube length will still open up the main triangle enough for shouldering. The ideal headtube length changes based on the bottom bracket drop. I think bikes with 4cm of spacers and 17 degree positive rise stems are aesthetically hideous. I also think that bikes that have been pushed to the limits of fitting adjustments have failed in their design. If it's a cross bike it should have a long headtube because odds are the rider is going to be in rough conditions (either on dirt, mud or ****ty commuting routes).
I honestly don't see what the appeal is to have a 90mm headtube on a cross bike, you're not going to spend 3 hours in the drops on it. If you're commuting on the thing you're not worried about getting aero anyway. Just make it comfortable across the board and give all the frame models reasonable effective top tubes and long headtubes.
shapelike
01-24-08, 07:46 AM
A single speed, ti 29er would be sweet too magic bike man. :o
Check out the Vassago Optimus Ti.
TimJ
01-24-08, 09:40 AM
Short headtubes are bad in general on a cross bike, but feel the worst during races.
On a "medium/55cm" frame I look for a headtube of about 145mm (integrated headset) or 135mm (conventional threadless). Just when in doubt, make it longer - give the toptube a bit of slop if you're concerned about standover height - the increased headtube length will still open up the main triangle enough for shouldering. The ideal headtube length changes based on the bottom bracket drop. I think bikes with 4cm of spacers and 17 degree positive rise stems are aesthetically hideous. I also think that bikes that have been pushed to the limits of fitting adjustments have failed in their design. If it's a cross bike it should have a long headtube because odds are the rider is going to be in rough conditions (either on dirt, mud or ****ty commuting routes).
I honestly don't see what the appeal is to have a 90mm headtube on a cross bike, you're not going to spend 3 hours in the drops on it. If you're commuting on the thing you're not worried about getting aero anyway. Just make it comfortable across the board and give all the frame models reasonable effective top tubes and long headtubes.
This sounds wise.
And +1 on no integrated headsets if possible. The things just don't make sense on any level except perhaps aesthetics.
InternetDisease
01-24-08, 01:36 PM
...just don't make sense on any level except perhaps aesthetics.
really? i think they look like weird, ugly bumps where the headset should be.