Folding Bikes - Bike Friday sale

Just announced ....

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We are getting ready for 2008 by clearing out our bike inventory so we don't have to pay taxes on it and to help feed our Global Warming Abatement Mission. This means great savings for you and your friends - our favorite people to work with! So we're telling you first!

Bikes to clear out by December 15th:

Pre-loved Bikes
17 - Single Bikes
2 - Tandems
1 - tikitTM

New Stock Bikes
6 - Small 8spd tikitsTM
19 -Medium 8spd tikitsTM
5 - Large 8spd tikitsTM
2 - Pocket Rockets 16spd
20 -New World Tourists (8, 16, 24, 27spd)

*Call for prices and to see what size would fit you best. 1-800-777-0258

Inventory Blowout Sale details:

* Order a Pre-loved Friday by December 15th and get 10-50% off the current pre-loved price. Each bike is unique so the sooner you call the more likely we can match your needs and plans. Up to $1000 value.
(We re-fit & refurbish it and offer a full warranty before we ship it to you)

* Order a New Stock Bike by December 15th and get 10% off the retail price, plus a Free Travel Bag by Christmas! There aren't very many, so call now. All sizes S, M, L available while supplies last. Up to $198 value.

* Order a 2008 Custom Bike Friday at the 2007 price. The dollar has fallen dramatically against most other foreign currencies (30% against the Euro alone). Since few bike components are built in the U.S. we purchase components from many other countries. This forces us to raise prices significantly in January. Order a Bike Friday of your choice in your size and color by December 21st for 2008 delivery and pay the 2007 price.(This offer applies for all participating dealers)

* Ask about Built To Order tikitsTM. We offer 4 models of custom tikitsTM and prices will be rising in 2008! We are getting lots of great reviews so when you call, ask to see some reviews. See A to B review here

* 2007 prices on the Bike Friday website are valid through the end of December. They will be rising 8-15% for 2008.
*Order by December 8th and choose 1/2 off a BF Jersey or any of the other items listed in the Holiday Gift Ideas section below.

Give us a call and talk to one of our personable bike consultants - that's what they love to do! We can also help you find a Bike Friday Dealer in your area. Call 1-800-777-0258 and mention magic code 1434

Just announced ....

* 2007 prices on the Bike Friday website are valid through the end of December. They will be rising 8-15% for 2008.


Sounds like the sinking value of the Dollar is beginning to come home to roost!

Glad we purchased out BF's earlier this yr.

What a load of bull. First of all, we all know that the majority of the price on a BF isn't paying for components. It's paying for a custom made frame built to specification. Second of all, I understand that prices will go up all around, but why is it that BF is increasing prices more relative to the foreign competition?

Being a US company selling frames made in the US, they should be able more effectively stave off price increases than the likes of Pacific Cycles, Dahon, etc. Yet, for some reason, I see foreign made bikes going down in price while BFs go up in price.

I also don't like how they're advertising percentages off instead of actual prices. 10% off doesn't mean anything if it's a preowned bike priced 10% too high to begin with. I'm very interested in knowing what the price of that "pre-loved" tikit is, but I'm not going to jump through hoops to find out.

The frame isn't the costliest part of their product. The components are. Friday makes custom bikes and only orders components on an as needed basis. They are not like most of the manufacturers and order parts by the 1000s. They therefore do not get the deep discount that say Trek would. Friday pays what you shop pays for the componets which is quite a bit more. This on the plus side allows them to truly customize your bike. Roger

I, too, would like to know the pre 10% off price.

Most of the pre-owned bikes, their prices and their serial numbers are shown on their website. There are even pictures of most of the them.

http://www.bikefriday.com/PreOwned

The pre-owned tikit, however, is not shown from what I can see.

Suggestion - Give them a call. It is an 800 number and it is free.

Why is a Fixed Gear BF so much more than a basic, 8sp model ?

Why is a Fixed Gear BF so much more than a basic, 8sp model ?

This page explains it pretty well if you are referring to the tikit:

http://www.bikefriday.com/tikit/bto

Just about any other bike can be ordered as a fixed gear, and will be custom built. (In reading what's posted here on Forum.net, it's likely anybody wanting a fixed gear bike will have specific hardware & paint preferences, too.)

Hey, I retired from selling in 2000 (telephone systems, not bikes). This is too much like work!

Give them a call, they're easy to deal with - it's Eugene, OR & not the big city.

Thanks F-2 :D

Im familiar with them and actually have been in touch with them.
I want to see a Pacific Trekker and Dahon Smoothhound too, though.....

They were recently hiring :) The ad said you get to build a bike for yourself.
If I wasnt rooted here for a while my trek across the country would have
already begun ! :lol:

What a load of bull. First of all, we all know that the majority of the price on a BF isn't paying for components. It's paying for a custom made frame built to specification. Second of all, I understand that prices will go up all around, but why is it that BF is increasing prices more relative to the foreign competition?

Being a US company selling frames made in the US, they should be able more effectively stave off price increases than the likes of Pacific Cycles, Dahon, etc. Yet, for some reason, I see foreign made bikes going down in price while BFs go up in price.

I also don't like how they're advertising percentages off instead of actual prices. 10% off doesn't mean anything if it's a preowned bike priced 10% too high to begin with. I'm very interested in knowing what the price of that "pre-loved" tikit is, but I'm not going to jump through hoops to find out.

I agree. It's ironic that the major folder company building bikes in the USA is blaming the falling dollar for price increases when we don't hear that from the sellers that source everything from overseas. I don't think many bike components are denominated in Euros anyway; except the Rohloff hub - which is a minority demand item. More like poor communications and pricing strategy. It seems inept marketing to introduce new models like the BTO (build to order) Tikit and then almost immediately announce price increases. That said I have to say I bought two machines this year from Bike Friday and have been very satisfied with the product and reasonably satisfied with the service. Good product, but irritating marketing rubs the wrong way - one just needs to shrug it off I suppose.

The have 20 unsold New World Tourists and 30 Tikits. That's over 50K in inventory they probably won't move until next summer. Add, all the costs associated with the failed recumbent and now you know why they are raising prices.

The Tikit hasn't hit the world by storm. I've only seen one in New York City since it was released. They are really counting on this bike to make up sales.

Why should we be surprised about the increase? Bike Friday has always raised prices. You noticed they didn't list the prices of the unsold inventory did you?

They haven't always raised prices. The price of the Family Tandem has gone up and down over the years, often down.

8-15% price increase is not that large. Figure some of that is inflation and some is from the deflated dollar. Shipping costs (important for raw materials) have also gone up a fair amount and this will impact the price of the bikes. Component prices are going to be higher on the customs (which use nice components) vs the stock models (that use commodity components). I'd expect the 8% price increase on the cheaper models.

They don't list the prices of the used bikes in this email because they have 20 of them. You need to call to order anyway (they don't do internet orders) so it doesn't hurt to call and inquire. The pricing on the new Tikits is obvious, it is 10% off of the list $1195 price, plus you get a free bag (around a $50 value).

alex

They haven't always raised prices. The price of the Family Tandem has gone up and down over the years, often down.

8-15% price increase is not that large. Figure some of that is inflation and some is from the deflated dollar. Shipping costs (important for raw materials) have also gone up a fair amount and this will impact the price of the bikes. Component prices are going to be higher on the customs (which use nice components) vs the stock models (that use commodity components). I'd expect the 8% price increase on the cheaper models.

They don't list the prices of the used bikes in this email because they have 20 of them. You need to call to order anyway (they don't do internet orders) so it doesn't hurt to call and inquire. The pricing on the new Tikits is obvious, it is 10% off of the list $1195 price, plus you get a free bag (around a $50 value).

alex

I've been coming up with all kinds of reasons why I could really use a Tikit in 2008...hmmmm...I was going to hold off until April or May, but perhaps I should pull the trigger now....:rolleyes:????

The Euro has appeciated greatly verses the US dollar, but the Japanese Yen, where most components are sourced, has not changed that much in value against the US dollar. Also the Chinese have only, and reluctantly, recently raised the value of their currency vs the US dollar. Bike Friday just has a policy, I was informed by an employee, of raising retail prices every year, regardless of inflation or currency gyrations. So if you want a Bike Friday, you just have to pay the piper, or buy used from a previous owner.
I visited the BF factory/sales office this past August and was excited about a purchase, but I was told that BF never offers a 10% discount. Five percent was the most I could hope for. But I have been interested in BF's for years and was familiar with the 10% end-of-year sell off. So I purchased a Dahon Smooth Hound.
PCG

Offer in an e-mail from Hanna Scholz of Bike Friday to all Portland Bridge pedal participants on Aug 21, 2007:

"We feel the Bridge Pedal is a demonstration of what can be. Clearly so does Portland. To thank you and show our pride in you and Oregon we are offering all who took part in this exceptional event of 22,000 self-powered people, our "Best Neighbors in Global Warming Abatement" offer. It includes $200 of Accessories or upgrades when you order any Bike Friday model.

And, if you plan to ride your new Bike Friday to work, let us know and we'll include a commuting package valued at over $100, which includes a book written by one of our customers on best commuting methods. It's free whether you just plan to try bicycle commuting or do it already. This offer is our way of encouraging ONE LESS CAR !"

We took advantage of this offer and ordered a NWT for me and a Crusoe for the wife. It amounted to more than 10% - likely 15% on my bike. The commuter free-bee included a set of fenders for both bikes. So there are some better than 5% specials.

We had visited the factory/showroom in Feb 2007, so this was just the push needed to get us to place our order.

[By the way, I had rode the 2007 8-bridge pedal (24.5 miles) on my now previous bike, a 7-speed Dahon Boardwalk. So it was an UPGRADE purchase.]

They don't list the prices of the used bikes in this email because they have 20 of them. You need to call to order anyway (they don't do internet orders) so it doesn't hurt to call and inquire. The pricing on the new Tikits is obvious, it is 10% off of the list $1195 price, plus you get a free bag (around a $50 value).

alex

Bike Friday doesn't list the price because they are expensive. If they listed the price on their bikes, less people would buy which is why they want you to call so their sales staff can apply pressure to change your mind. Bike Friday no longer calls me anymore but it was quite common to receive a call every three months from their sales staff.

I wonder if they are really so expensive... I have no idea, what is a BF price?

I would compare that against a good or excellent quality road bike, not against other folders. A good roadie over here would set you back not a penny less than AU$2000, in fact you'd be very lucky to an Ultegra-equipped bike at that, with maybe carbon seat stays, and on a special.

So shouldn't in all fairness BFs be compared against that?

Bike Friday doesn't list the price because they are expensive.

Huh?

They are expensive, but you can get prices on their website. How about this:

http://www.bikefriday.com/node/4967?styleId=1666

or this:

http://www.bikefriday.com/node/4996?styleId=1667 ?

I believe that most of the bikes that they sell are custom, so these are examples. When I bought mine I started with one of their sample designs and had them make changes.

Speedo

I wonder if they are really so expensive... I have no idea, what is a BF price?

So shouldn't in all fairness BFs be compared against that?

Ultimately, I think that you have to compare them against something actually made in the US or EU. So look at what a nice Tikit costs, and that's pretty similar to what a well equipped (read lightened) Brompton costs. I think they are both quality bikes produced by similar types of craftsmen.

It's pretty obvious that China can produce vast amounts of goods at very low prices. This is news to no one. The quality of product that you get from China varies, but over the last 10 years, they have improved a staggering amount. I still get the feeling that they are an economic house of cards in some ways, but in general, they can build about as good of equipment as anyone else.

What you get from Brompton and Bike Friday is a more personalized treatment and a product that is more of a niche market. China supplies to the masses, the niches are all that's left. From my perspective, I get the knowledge that by buying a Bike Friday, I'm supporting an American company. A Brit can feel a touch better about himself by buying a Brompton and knowing that he is supporting an English company. I really feel like there is an intrinsic value in that.

I would compare that against a good or excellent quality road bike, not against other folders. A good roadie over here would set you back not a penny less than AU$2000, in fact you'd be very lucky to an Ultegra-equipped bike at that, with maybe carbon seat stays, and on a special.


At the current Aus/U.S.A. exchange rate, that $2,000 Austrailian bike would cost $2,260 in American $.

Some other history here - in the early 1950's Japan was what China is now; the manufacturer of knock-offs and generally cheap goods. Some on here might even remember the "Made in Occupied Japan" stamps on items into the early 50's. One of their first great quality items was 35mm cameras. At first they were copies of European brands, then Canon and Nikon emerged as high quality products.

Running a small, American manufacturing company has never been easy, and certainly not today. They have had to create an image, create reasons to own an expensive folding bike, make sales, that's after coming up with and refining a design, tooling up a factory, hiring employees and then making payroll and operations expenses every week/month. No easy feat.

Few products sell themselves - IPODs may seem to, but they spend lots of money on store fronts and advertising, etc. to make you want them. BF's sales consultants cannot force you to buy a bike! You get to decide on your own - they help you design a bike to meet your needs - if you could do it on your own, you'd do it in your garage. (I sold telephone/PBX systems of all sizes (from '82- '00) - 99.9% of customers could not configure or install their own system, that was my function as a sales consultant. Same with BF.

They have sold 17,000+ bikes since the their inception. The bikes hold-up well and used models bring good prices. They are doing something right.

Our daughter went to the Univ of Oregon, and we owned a house in Eugene from '86 - '92 where she lived and rented out rooms to other students. We came to really like Eugene, and we're happy to support a local business like Bike Friday by purchasing two bikes.

The other facet of their business proposition folks seem to miss is the SUPPORT. Try getting parts or service at the factory from the other folding bike manufacturers. Having that reachable, and trained customer service dept. doesn't come cheap.

Just thought I'd share some experience - also known as "your age is showing".

Few products sell themselves - IPODs may seem to, but they spend lots of money on store fronts and advertising, etc. to make you want them. BF's sales consultants cannot force you to buy a bike! You get to decide on your own - they help you design a bike to meet your needs...
I don't think iPods sell themselves; they are smartly marketed to be integrated into iTunes and other iPod add-ons (speaker systems, alarm clocks, etc.) which position them as a "necessity" even if they are not; you don't need an iPod to garner the benefits of iTunes.

But you're right in suggesting that BF realizes the tikit won't sell itself, not with all the other alternative bikes around. Thus BF is trying to position the tikit as a complement to the commuting solution, the oil solution, the global warming solution. I'm down with their philosophy, but so far, I don't think they've created the "necessity" component just yet. I think they'd be more successful if they priced the tikit in the $500-$700 range, but this would overtax their current workforce for not much profit (at least what is considered profit nowadays) so they're almost forced to keep the prices high. Sucks to be a company trying to fill the needs of a niche market. Even Greenspeed bit the bullet and sent one model overseas for mass production. I think Greenspeed is doing well, but I'm sure they have stories to tell.

At the current Aus/U.S.A. exchange rate, that $2,000 Austrailian bike would cost $2,260 in American $.


Actually $2000AUS = $1770USA. The Aussie dollar is slightly weaker than the US.

Actually $2000AUS = $1770USA. The Aussie dollar is slightly weaker than the US.

For now...;)

At the current Aus/U.S.A. exchange rate, that $2,000 Austrailian bike would cost $2,260 in American $.

Some other history here - in the early 1950's Japan was what China is now; the manufacturer of knock-offs and generally cheap goods. Some on here might even remember the "Made in Occupied Japan" stamps on items into the early 50's. One of their first great quality items was 35mm cameras. At first they were copies of European brands, then Canon and Nikon emerged as high quality products.

Running a small, American manufacturing company has never been easy, and certainly not today. They have had to create an image, create reasons to own an expensive folding bike, make sales, that's after coming up with and refining a design, tooling up a factory, hiring employees and then making payroll and operations expenses every week/month. No easy feat.

Few products sell themselves - IPODs may seem to, but they spend lots of money on store fronts and advertising, etc. to make you want them. BF's sales consultants cannot force you to buy a bike! You get to decide on your own - they help you design a bike to meet your needs - if you could do it on your own, you'd do it in your garage. (I sold telephone/PBX systems of all sizes (from '82- '00) - 99.9% of customers could not configure, or install their own system ) that was my function as a sales consultant. Same with BF.

They have sold 17,000+ bikes since the their inception. The bikes hold-up well and used models bring good prices. They are doing something right.

Our daughter went to the Univ of Oregon, and we owned a house in Eugene from '86 - '92 where she lived and rented out rooms to other students. We came to really like Eugene, and were happy to support a local business like Bike Friday by purchasing two bikes.

The other facet of their business proposition folks seem to miss is the SUPPORT. Try getting parts or service at the factory from the other folding bike manufacturers. Having that reachable, and trained customer service dept. doesn't come cheap.

Just thought I'd share some experience - also known as "your age is showing".

Nice. :beer:

Bike Friday doesn't list the price because they are expensive. If they listed the price on their bikes, less people would buy which is why they want you to call so their sales staff can apply pressure to change your mind. Bike Friday no longer calls me anymore but it was quite common to receive a call every three months from their sales staff.

They don't hide the prices, they just didn't stick them in the email because it would be huge. You can see the prices of used bikes here:
http://www.bikefriday.com/PreOwned

That is the second link on their homepage under "Order Bicycles".

I haven't had any sales pressure from Bike Friday. They called me once when the Tikit first came out to see if I was interested (because I had told them that I was), and I told them that I planned on waiting for a model with an internal hub. They didn't call me back after that -- I called them when I decided that I would just order a derailleur model.

Actually $2000AUS = $1770USA. The Aussie dollar is slightly weaker than the US.

Did my arithmetic backwards - sorry!

I haven't had any sales pressure from Bike Friday. They called me once when the Tikit first came out to see if I was interested (because I had told them that I was), and I told them that I planned on waiting for a model with an internal hub. They didn't call me back after that -- I called them when I decided that I would just order a derailleur model.

Hah! I was wondering about that. I got a call from them too regarding the tikit. I agree, there was no pressure to purchase one. At the time, I participated in a discussion about the tikit which they (rightly so) interpreted as an interest in the tikit. By coincidence, I told them that when an internal hub model is released to let me know.

I wonder if they are really so expensive... I have no idea, what is a BF price?

I always compared my NWT to a Surly Crosscheck or Soma Doublecross (cyclocross bikes). Both are quality steel frame bikes that many shops put together to specs. Two shops in the DC area sell them with 105 components for about $1400-$1500. Last I checked, you can get my NWT new with 105 components for about $1900 (including the LAB discount). Hence, I tell people that one pays a $500 premium for the bike.

^^^ Wow !! An off-the-shelf 105 equiped Crosscheck can be had for 800.00 or
so from the internet. I paid 850.00 for mine :eek:
The BF I would be interested in is about 750.00. I have no problem paying that
for that bike. A definite consideration for my 'good' folder :)

I was a bit frustrated with the BF website and pricing info when I first started looking at a couple models I was interested in. The site is quite complex and the pricing info is also complex and not totally obvious at first glance. Keep in mind I had just been shopping at the Dahon site when I bought a D7. But, after spending more time on the BF site I can appreciate it is just a whole different company and product. Dahon, like most manufacturers, sells a specific set of products and specific prices for one year. You buy a product or you don't. That scenario is easy to communicate specs and prices since there are relatively few possibilities. OTOH BF offers custom and semi-custom bikes where there are tons of options that makes communicating bike specs and pricing quite challenging. I think BF could do a better job of providing info via their website, but I can sympathize that keeping a simple website up to date would be a heck of a task.

Now that I have a better handle on the BF website I find that if I'm willing to spend a little time poking around I can get loads of useful info out of it.

As far as pricing goes raising your prices is a normal part of business - I can list lots of cycling products that have seen price increases over the last few years. Nothing nefarious there that I can see.

^^^ Wow !! An off-the-shelf 105 equiped Crosscheck can be had for 800.00 or
so from the internet. I paid 850.00 for mine :eek:
The BF I would be interested in is about 750.00. I have no problem paying that
for that bike. A definite consideration for my 'good' folder :)

Really ... where? The standard Crosscheck from ~two years ago had Tiagra components and bar-ends. $800 for a new one with 105 components would be fantastic. I have a friend looking for one.

I might have posted prematurely :eek:

My CrossCheck came from an online site called BicycleBlowout.com in 2005 but it was
a 2004 model. It had 105 stock. I loved that bike but it came waaaay too big so I sold it to
someone who promised a good home for it.

The bicycle blowout page is gone but in its place is this :
http://bicyclebananas.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BB&Product_Code=AIJJ-SurlyCrossCheck&Category_Code=17-Surly

for 899.00. Still a far cry from the 1100-1500 range.
I have seen a leftover 50c going for 799.00 a year ago.
As I said...Mine was a fabulous bike ! If you order online, go a size or two smaller
because they size large. My 56 was someone elses 59 or 60 :eek:

I might have posted prematurely :eek:

My CrossCheck came from an online site called BicycleBlowout.com in 2005 but it was
a 2004 model. It had 105 stock. I loved that bike but it came waaaay too big so I sold it to
someone who promised a good home for it.

The bicycle blowout page is gone but in its place is this :
http://bicyclebananas.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BB&Product_Code=AIJJ-SurlyCrossCheck&Category_Code=17-Surly

for 899.00. Still a far cry from the 1100-1500 range.
I have seen a leftover 50c going for 799.00 a year ago.
As I said...Mine was a fabulous bike ! If you order online, go a size or two smaller
because they size large. My 56 was someone elses 59 or 60 :eek:

Ahhh ... but the Crosscheck complete for $900 has a Tiagra setup with bar ends and some other cost cutting measures. 105 components (including shifters) would add quite a bit to the $900 tag.

Ultimately, I think that you have to compare them against something actually made in the US or EU. So look at what a nice Tikit costs, and that's pretty similar to what a well equipped (read lightened) Brompton costs. I think they are both quality bikes produced by similar types of craftsmen.

It's pretty obvious that China can produce vast amounts of goods at very low prices. This is news to no one. The quality of product that you get from China varies, but over the last 10 years, they have improved a staggering amount. I still get the feeling that they are an economic house of cards in some ways, but in general, they can build about as good of equipment as anyone else.

What you get from Brompton and Bike Friday is a more personalized treatment and a product that is more of a niche market. China supplies to the masses, the niches are all that's left. From my perspective, I get the knowledge that by buying a Bike Friday, I'm supporting an American company. A Brit can feel a touch better about himself by buying a Brompton and knowing that he is supporting an English company. I really feel like there is an intrinsic value in that.

Worksman doesn't seem to have a problem keeping prices down as a small US company serving a niche market with custom equipped handmade steel bikes. Their custom cruiser starts at $299 and you can customize the frame and components right online (no badgering from a salesman required):
http://worksmancycles.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/cruisers.html

I also hear that they are equally as helpful on the phone as Bike Friday and willing to customize your bike beyond their default configurations in whatever way you want.

I've spent a bit of time researching folding bikes this fall. I bought a Dahon D7 and am interested in a BF Tikit.

Comparing the two bikes, the company, the after sales service/support and the bike resale value I don't have a problem with the cost of the Tikit relative to the D7. Sure in a perfect world I'd like the Tikit to cost less, but having been involved in the development of some very niche products I can understand why the Tikit costs what it does.

While I don't expect everyone to buy a Tikit rather than save the $$$ and buy a Dahon, I can't understand the attitude in this thread that BF is trying to pull a fast one on their customers. They have a completely different business model and offer some very unique low volume products to the cycling market.

Even though I was not a BF customer I've really appreciated the fact they've been out there making cool niche bikes all these years. I'm also really glad there are some lower cost options like Dahon, but they are apples and oranges IMO.

BTW - when I spoke to BF recently a stock Tikit on sale is $1095 at the moment + you get a travel bag [$69.50] free as well.

Worksman doesn't seem to have a problem keeping prices down as a small US company serving a niche market with custom equipped handmade steel bikes. Their custom cruiser starts at $299 and you can customize the frame and components right online (no badgering from a salesman required):
http://worksmancycles.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/cruisers.html

You don't think that there are some intrinsic differences between Bike Friday and Worksman that are important to your comparison? What was the price of their custom cruiser in the past? Have their prices moved in accordance with the foreign competition?


I also hear that they are equally as helpful on the phone as Bike Friday and willing to customize your bike beyond their default configurations in whatever way you want.

But would the price of these custom jobs be as price competitive as you suggest above?

.....

Including your original reference to foreign manufacturers, I don't know how much their product prices have risen if at all. Do you know how the prices of Trek's bikes have changed? How about a US company like Cannondale? It would be interesting to see the difference in percentage changes relative to Bike Friday and then try to explain that.

More generally, there are a lot of things going on during a production process. We all understand the price of raw inputs. But a company like Bike Friday probably uses labor with a different skill set than Worksman. For instance, is the steel the same? My rough understanding is that some steels require more skill to properly weld. I speculate that Trek and Cannondale have more of a production line process than Bike Friday. Moreover, the customization component of Bike Friday incurs an extra cost that Trek and Cannondale avoid. Any difference in labor's skill sets would then be filtered through the final price. Wages and benefits for skilled labor might have moved quite differently over time than those of less skilled labor -- this, in fact, is my understanding of the data.

I could drone on, but no one really wants that! :D

As should be obvious from my vague prose, I know too little about the bike industry to give you a detailed answer. However, I fail to see why the comparisons are good ones in the first place.

... I can't understand the attitude in this thread that BF is trying to pull a fast one on their customers. They have a completely different business model and offer some very unique low volume products to the cycling market.
No one questions BF's overall quality; once people have ridden them, they understand.

However, there is something not quite right with how they raise prices. Sure, cost of living and operation expenses grow every year, but here's my take on why I don't always agree with their increases.

First, the tikit: this bike was promised in 2005 for around $900. Since then, they've hired Rob, redesigned it, and are now charging a pretty penny for it. They can do and charge whatever they want, but when they go around saying "we want to stop global warming, and the tikit is our contribution," they're using global warming as an excuse. If they really wanted to get people on bikes, they would find a different way to do it than to charge $1200 for the privilege. In other words, their false marketing irks me personally.

Their Sat'r'day recumbent: neat functionality, but a waste of time and money which really drained a lot of their resources. Yes, people like the idea of foldable, traveling 'bent, but they do not want to pay near Bacchetta Ti Aero prices to get one! If it were me, I'd rather get the Bacchetta.

Their used bike price scam: They base the price of a used bike on CURRENT bike prices. I don't care how much the bike costs NOW; what was the ORIGINAL price?

Model degradations: I like that they made the NWT into a base model, but what happened to the beefy seat stay catch? If you compare the new NWT's with their older counterparts you'll see the quality looks a lot better on the older ones. If they're going to offer a NWT, I'd expect to pay for a NWT, not a glorified Crusoe; otherwise don't call it a NWT.

I'm just glad I got in on my bikes early.

However, there is something not quite right with how they raise prices. Sure, cost of living and operation expenses grow every year, but here's my take on why I don't always agree with their increases.

First, the tikit: this bike was promised in 2005 for around $900. Since then, they've hired Rob, redesigned it, and are now charging a pretty penny for it. They can do and charge whatever they want, but when they go around saying "we want to stop global warming, and the tikit is our contribution," they're using global warming as an excuse. If they really wanted to get people on bikes, they would find a different way to do it than to charge $1200 for the privilege. In other words, their false marketing irks me personally.

To address your first point I can say that even with limited exposure to BF it is very obvious they do not do things the most efficient or cost effective way. They have a organizational style that is effective in some ways, but producing cheap bikes isn't one of its virtues. On the plus side you get some cool bikes like the Tikit, but you also get some bikes that don't pan out the way everyone hoped like the Sat 'R Day. As you have alluded to the cost of the Tikit isn't just the cost of the Tikit design/production at BF - it also includes the impacts of other unrelated business decisions they've made.

To address your second point if I followed your argument to its logical conclusion BF would just start making Dahons. If you look at the cost of even a cheap car and then compare it to the cost of a Tikit you are way further ahead with the Tikit. The Tikit as a folder has capabilities that an inexpensive Dahon does not. I think the fast easy Tikit fold takes it to the next level it terms of making life car free so much easier for some people. If you look at the Tikit in the context of a transportation alternative I don't think the price is even remotely out of line with BF's stated goal. Sure a Dahon is cheaper and if it meets your needs buy one! OTOH BF is providing another solution in the Tikit that will meet other people's needs. I don't think anyone at BF assumed the Tikit would wipe out every other transportation bike on the planet.

I can see how hearing a Tikit would cost $900 in 2005 would lead you to prefer that the actual price in 2007 was lower than $1200, but to be frank tough. I have never been involved in any product development project where the initial estimate did not vary - especially over the course of 2 years. Looking at the Tikit it was a very ambitious complex project to undertake. From all accounts BF has done a great job making it a reality. If my choices are a $900 Tikit that is poorly refined or a $1200 Tikit that is nicely refined I'll take the later every time. If I can't afford $1200 I'll wait till they go on sale, buy a used one or buy another folding bike.

Finally in reference to the price of used BFs companies are entitled to change whatever the market will pay for a product. If their used bikes are selling at the current pricing levels more power to them. That will also mean used prices for private sales will remain high - a benefit to BF owners.

I went to the website and custom configured a Workman bike for myself - nothing too radical - a 7-speed with some enhancements. Configured price = $711.00 - far from the production bike price of $299.00.

Would bet like BF they sell some standard bikes, but that most folks want a more custom one. Also there was only one women's frame size and two men's frame sizes. Customization only goes so far. Choice of components was also very small, although they may be willing to do some additional things if requested, and for a price as one would expect. Fun if you want a cruiser, though.

I am assuming their "Made in America" proclamation includes the frame, too, and not just assembly.

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Why does the Lexus still cost so much? If Toyota is as efficient as everyone says, why hasn't the price of a new Lexus come down to the level of a Ford Focus which provides just as good basic transportation.

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On the other hand, many who start out owning a Focus eventually end up purchasing a Lexus. Sort of like starting with a Dahon or Downtube, deciding you like 20" wheels and/or folders and later upgrade to a BF. (That's what we did.)

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I am waiting for Ford, GM and Chrysler to offer a guaranteed 40% of what you paid as a trade-in on a new car.

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May be time for the Scholz brothers to sell-out to TREK or Cannondale or Dahon and retire to Costa Rica. I firmly believe that BF's can be built anywhere and look exactly the same as they do now, and.........they will cost a bit less and have improved models once a year. That would be so much more mainstream and understandable.

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The above is just some creative thinking (much of it tongue in cheek) by a wild-eyed Northern Italian who will continue to happily ride his NWT.

First, the tikit: this bike was promised in 2005 for around $900. Since then, they've hired Rob, redesigned it, and are now charging a pretty penny for it.

Where did they promise it for $900? I've been following the development of this bike for a long time and never heard a $900 price point.

Since 2005 the cost of steel and bicycle components have both gone up quite a bit.

I do think that $1195 is higher than ideal. However it is more important to me that the company makes enough money to justify the development and that they keep production in the US than having them sell it for a lower price point.


Their used bike price scam: They base the price of a used bike on CURRENT bike prices. I don't care how much the bike costs NOW; what was the ORIGINAL price?

Used bikes are always sold against the value of what is available now, not what they originally sold for. I've bought a few used bikes for more than their original value because there was nothing else that met the same price point today.


Model degradations: I like that they made the NWT into a base model, but what happened to the beefy seat stay catch? If you compare the new NWT's with their older counterparts you'll see the quality looks a lot better on the older ones. If they're going to offer a NWT, I'd expect to pay for a NWT, not a glorified Crusoe; otherwise don't call it a NWT.

Personally I'd like to see them drop the model names completely. They sell custom bikes, not preset models, so the model names just add confusion. They should have names for the frame styles (Air, NWT-style with folding mast, NWT-style with telescoping seat mast, Tikit, Tandem Two'sday-style, Family Tandem-style), but not anything else. It gets very confusing to keep track of what the differences are between a NWT, Crusoe, Llama, Pocket Rocket, etc. They all have the same basic frame design.

It also bothers me that they don't extend the warranty on used bikes unless you buy a used bike from them. You can find a discussion about this in the yak archives from a couple of years ago between Walter and I.

alex

Would bet like BF they sell some standard bikes, but that most folks want a more custom one. Also there was only one women's frame size and two men's frame sizes. Customization only goes so far. Choice of components was also very small, although they may be willing to do some additional things if requested, and for a price as one would expect. Fun if you want a cruiser, though.

It isn't really fair to compare Worksman with BF in terms of cost. Worksman bicycles are made with mild steel, seamed tubing, with thick walls. Bike Fridays are made with lightweight 4130, custom shaped and formed in many cases (the seat mast support on the Tikit is an example) and have many more welds and brazes per frame. The number of hours spent building each bike is going to be very different.

I'm glad that Worksman bicycles are still made in the US and I think they are nice products for what they are. I just don't think that you can really say "Worksman can make a bike in the US for $299, so Bike Friday should be able to as well". Huffy was making bikes in the 90s for $99 when Trek was making them for 10 times as much. Does that mean Trek was overcharging? They aren't comparible products.

alex

Model degradations: I like that they made the NWT into a base model, but what happened to the beefy seat stay catch? If you compare the new NWT's with their older counterparts you'll see the quality looks a lot better on the older ones. If they're going to offer a NWT, I'd expect to pay for a NWT, not a glorified Crusoe; otherwise don't call it a NWT.

What is a seat stay catch? I assume you mean the part that connects to the base of the seat mast. If it does the job, why does it matter how beefy it is? Have you heard of the part failing?

I have seen many NWTs subsequent to the left-folding design. Very few differences have caught my eye. I have noticed no difference in quality. Note that I am no expert either.

Where did they promise it for $900? I've been following the development of this bike for a long time and never heard a $900 price point.

I recall that someone passed around an old Foldable Flyer with that price.

Their used bike price scam: They base the price of a used bike on CURRENT bike prices. I don't care how much the bike costs NOW; what was the ORIGINAL price?

What is important is the price of the present alternative; i.e., the price of the new product now. Those are your real choices ... buy the used model or a new one ... no?

You don't think that there are some intrinsic differences between Bike Friday and Worksman that are important to your comparison? What was the price of their custom cruiser in the past? Have their prices moved in accordance with the foreign competition?

There absolutely are differences. Huge intrinsic differences. However, nobody can seem to agree on exactly what you are paying so much for when you buy a BF. Some say it is the fact that it is a niche product, some say it is that it is customized, some say it is that it is built in the first world, some say it is the customer service, and some say it is the components. However, no matter which combination of these it is, I don't see how it adds up.

I'm not saying it doesn't add up. I just don't see it and, unfortunately, like most retailers today, making it clear exactly what makes their product a good value does not seem to be a priority of BF's sales initiatives as much as appealing to impulsive and irrational purchasing tendencies. If BF used their advertising efforts to make the value of their products clear then perhaps I would have purchased a Tikit by now, but as it is my primary interest is in the design and when I add the value of the design to what I can surmise about the value of all the factors mentioned above it doesn't seem to add up to the price they're asking. Maybe I'm miscalculating the value of those benefits, but unfortunately for BF, they are going to be hurt more than me when I consequently purchase a product from another manufacturer.


But would the price of these custom jobs be as price competitive as you suggest above?

I don't know...and I don't know about BF either. The point is that you have the potential to get what you need from them, regardless of whether or not it is encompassed by their advertised offerings. Is that not one of the reasons why people pay so much for a BF?



Including your original reference to foreign manufacturers, I don't know how much their product prices have risen if at all. Do you know how the prices of Trek's bikes have changed? How about a US company like Cannondale? It would be interesting to see the difference in percentage changes relative to Bike Friday and then try to explain that.

While I can't say much about entire manufacturer lineups, Birdys seem to get cheaper and cheaper every year; Dahon's Curve offers considerably more value for your dollar than their offerings from previous years (such as the Presto or the Piccolo). And to the best of my knowledge Worksman bikes have not risen in price in recent years.

So it seems that although no manufacturer shares all the same circumstances as BF, there always seems to be at least one company facing each of the price inflating problems encountered by BF and, by and large, they all seem to manage to stave off the tendency of giving less value for your dollar over time. So why can't BF do likewise? Of course, this isn't a question for you, but a question for BF and the fact that they didn't already address this point when appealing to the weak dollar only lowers my confidence in their ability to offer me a competitive price.



More generally, there are a lot of things going on during a production process. We all understand the price of raw inputs. But a company like Bike Friday probably uses labor with a different skill set than Worksman. For instance, is the steel the same? My rough understanding is that some steels require more skill to properly weld. I speculate that Trek and Cannondale have more of a production line process than Bike Friday. Moreover, the customization component of Bike Friday incurs an extra cost that Trek and Cannondale avoid. Any difference in labor's skill sets would then be filtered through the final price. Wages and benefits for skilled labor might have moved quite differently over time than those of less skilled labor -- this, in fact, is my understanding of the data.

Ahh, yes, but those workers are paid in US dollars. If BF is increasing prices due to inflation then so be it, but if the price increases really are due to the falling dollar then I don't see why the skill of the US workers they employ should have anything to do with it.



As should be obvious from my vague prose, I know too little about the bike industry to give you a detailed answer. However, I fail to see why the comparisons are good ones in the first place.

You're right. My comparisons might be entirely inappropriate, but since I'm just a customer, I can afford to make that mistake. It's up to Bike Friday to anticipate the skepticism of their potential customers and convince them otherwise. Their business depends on it.


It isn't really fair to compare Worksman with BF in terms of cost. Worksman bicycles are made with mild steel, seamed tubing, with thick walls. Bike Fridays are made with lightweight 4130, custom shaped and formed in many cases (the seat mast support on the Tikit is an example) and have many more welds and brazes per frame. The number of hours spent building each bike is going to be very different.

I'm glad that Worksman bicycles are still made in the US and I think they are nice products for what they are. I just don't think that you can really say "Worksman can make a bike in the US for $299, so Bike Friday should be able to as well". Huffy was making bikes in the 90s for $99 when Trek was making them for 10 times as much. Does that mean Trek was overcharging? They aren't comparible products.

alex

My point was not that BF should be able to make bikes at $299. My point was that they should be able to keep price increases under control despite the falling dollar. Worksman has been making cycles since 1930 and if they were increasing prices like BF then there is no way that the price of that cruiser could be $300 today.

BF and Worksman are not like apples and oranges. They are like big apples and little apples.

Also, any additional hours going into the BF price should only make them that much more capable of combating the falling dollar because those hours are denominated in US dollars.

BF and Worksman are not like apples and oranges. They are like big apples and little apples.

They use different materials, different welding techniques, different components, and produce different vehicles. What is in common besides the fact that both sell bicycles and produce them in the US?

If you compare the Bike Fridays to other custom and small production shop bicycle companies in the US I think you'll find that the pricing is comparable if not better. Co-Motion and Burley (who no longer builds bicycles because it wasn't profitable) are two examples that come to mind...both are made in the same city as Bike Friday too.

alex

I don't get where this thread has gone.

If you don't like somebody's prices, DON'T BUY FROM THEM. If enough people don't buy from a supplier, that supplier will either drop prices, or go out of business. Usually the former followed by the latter.

In Bike Friday's case, it's pretty apparent that there are plenty of people willing to pay the prices requested for the products being offered. Sounds fair to me.

To address your second point if I followed your argument to its logical conclusion BF would just start making Dahons.
No one suggested this. But I would suggest following the Greenspeed model in what they did with the GT3. JUST THIS MODEL ALONE was contracted out overseas to make mass quantities. All of their custom models are still done in house.


I can see how hearing a Tikit would cost $900 in 2005 would lead you to prefer that the actual price in 2007 was lower than $1200, but to be frank tough.
All I said was that if they really wanted to get more people on bikes, a $1200 price point is not going to do it for them. They are giving ground away to Dahon. But like I said earlier, with which you also seem to agree, Bike Friday can do whatever they want.



If my choices are a $900 Tikit that is poorly refined or a $1200 Tikit that is nicely refined I'll take the later every time. If I can't afford $1200 I'll wait till they go on sale, buy a used one or buy another folding bike.
First, it is only your assumption that the first iteration would have been "poorly refined." Second, the reason why they back-burnered this project was because of the new failed SatrDay, when even then people were telling them to concentrate more on the commuter market than the 'bent market. Third, I can afford a tikit, but don't want or need one.



Finally in reference to the price of used BFs companies are entitled to change whatever the market will pay for a product. If their used bikes are selling at the current pricing levels more power to them. That will also mean used prices for private sales will remain high - a benefit to BF owners.
Now THAT is paying for old, maybe "poorly refined" technology. More power to the buyer.
Both of my BF's are used. But I knew what I was getting, and have paid pretty close attention to the model changes over the years. And no, I wasn't going to blow $1000 on a used bike. A folding tandem, however, was a different story.

Where did they promise it for $900? I've been following the development of this bike for a long time and never heard a $900 price point.
It was in a hardcopy of their "Foldable Flyers" brochure. I digitized it, and will edit this post when I find it. The first iteration folded like a Brompton! (Or pretty close to it.)



Personally I'd like to see them drop the model names completely. They sell custom bikes, not preset models, so the model names just add confusion.
I'm with you on the names. Otherwise if they're going to designate models specifically, then they should continue to build to those specific specs.

Edit: Here's the flyer, ca. Fall 2005

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/9108/tikitle1.th.jpg (http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tikitle1.jpg)

What is a seat stay catch? I assume you mean the part that connects to the base of the seat mast. If it does the job, why does it matter how beefy it is? Have you heard of the part failing?
It matters because the NWT is (or was) billed as the touring model, and I can imagine the beefy catch helps with stabilizing load.

A couple did a tour in the middle east using a standard model like mine without the reinforced catch. Bike Friday did a story on them, but throughout the article kept writing "Note: we do not advocate touring on this model. We suggest you use a NWT." If I find the article, I'll edit this post.

But to answer your question, "No" I haven't heard of it failing, but Bike Friday's response does not instill confidence in me either.

Edit: here you go:
http://www.bikefriday.com/yemen?time=current

*** DISCLAIMER *** Candida and Jan tackled Yemen on the most affordable Friday of all: The Pocket Tourist. Can you afford a Friday? Yes, you can! However, we STRONGLY recommend using a New World Tourist or Pocket Llama for expedition travel like this, as the Pocket Tourist is primarily built for economy, recreational riding and lighter loads. Read more touring on a Friday stories.