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I really want to keep up my commute this winter but I live on rural roads with some pretty decent hills and I took a summertime fall that taught me and my knee not to want to fall again. So how can I gauge whether or not there is black ice? We had snow this week and then it got super cold and in my area they don't use salt since we're a watershed. I tend to ride at night. And, well, of course "night" starts around 4 p.m. in these parts right now. I'm frustrated with my sense of fear on this! But going 20 or so downhill how could you POSSIBLY know?
I'm going to switch to my mtb for sure. But I don't have special tires. I've been fine riding in the cold (20 F with a good wind) but that has been on dry roads and now it's the ice that's got me freaked and off the bike
????
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Anticipate where ice might be. Where ever a puddle might exist is where the ice hides so don't ride in the low areas. I find the fear of falling is worse than the fall itself. Go out in the backyard and fall in the snow a few times. That might help you relax on the road.
;)
I must admit I found the fall much worse than the fear (I had little!). I ended up at various medical units and with a knee the size of a watermelon. I guess that is what I haven't quite worked through yet regarding the ice. But I appreciate your comment about the puddles. I think the trick might be to start slowly in daylight when I can and then work up to my evening outings.
didn't you notice the 4000 threads around here about studded tires???
The only way to ride across black ice safely is to use studded tires. They work great on black ice.
The only way to ride across black ice safely is to use studded tires. They work great on black ice.
Or ice of any color.
Studs take all the drama out of winter riding. Besides letting your ride safely on ice, the also let you stop and steer on it.
I was riding mid-pack on a group ride last night (26 riders, snowing, temps in the lower 20s). Pulling up to a stop sign, the front riders began calling out "Ice, right". I saw snow, but not ice. Then I put my foot down after stopping. I had stopped on the (white) ice which was hidden under the snow. My foot slid a little when I put it down, but holding the brakes kept me in place. Then two (studless) riders behind me slid into the back of my bike. Ooopsie!
The point here is that the studs work so well, I needed my foot and other riders to know I was even on ice.
Yikes! 4000 posts!
And I just thought studs were for snow and muck.
You guys really having confidence with studs on roadways (not off) with ICE!!!????
tsl what kind of studs are you using? I saw that danged thing with the 396 screws coming out of but whoa. :(:(:(:(
Mostly this will be roadway with the occassional patch. Forgive my ignorance!
(please)
You guys really having confidence with studs on roadways (not off) with ICE!!!????
tsl what kind of studs are you using?
I ride roads almost exclusively. That Tuesday night ride is the only one where occassionally we venture off-road through parks and stuff. 98% of my winter miles are road. I commute by bike, I shop by bike, and I play by bike, in all four seasons. Only the combination of winds >35mph and slippery conditions keeps me off the road.
My winter tires are Nokian Hakkapeliitta W106 (http://www.suomityres.fi/w106.html) in size 700x35. Like three-season tires, winter tires come in varieties designed more towards road use or trail use. The W106 is more towards road use. (Although the MTBers last night were very surprised that an old guy on a drop-bar road bike with skinny tires could go almost everywhere they did.)
Best price I've seen on them so far this year is $37 each at ebikestop.com (http://www.ebikestop.com/Items/004-tr1110?).
BTW, knobbies are for loose surfaces, like dirt, gravel, mud and snow. Studs are for ice. Homebrew winter tires with screws are for riding on lakes and ponds. They're downright dangerous on roads.
Those look good. My bikeshop suggests Nokians but they are $100 each which is pretty big for a commitment. I think the Nokian 294. Seems like overkill since mostly I'll be on pavement with the occas slush pushed out from driveways and whatnot and that evil lurking patch of the slippery invisible. DO you think the Hakkapeliita would do the job under the conditions I describe? Fact is, I'll probably wimp out for the worst of it, sorry to say. I do have a cage... but I would like to cycle all winter in a pretty wide range of conditions short of pure hell.
Yikes! 4000 posts!
And I just thought studs were for snow and muck.
You guys really having confidence with studs on roadways (not off) with ICE!!!????I must've posted this 3900+ times already, greatly contributing to the volume of 4000 threads on the subject. :D Anyways, studs perform at their BEST on ice and hard packed snow. Try riding over a frozen lake, it's a blast! If you had just thick layer of soft fresh snow (muck, whatever) but the surface below had good traction, you would not need studs. Problem is, you cannot tell from the surface whether a specific spot under snow has ice or dry pavement. If it's the former, you'll definitely need studded tyres.
Nokian W106s here as well.
--J
Depends on the size you need for your bike. That will eliminate many choices right there.
Then, let the tread (not the number of studs) be your guide. Knobbies, like the Extreme 294, work best off-road. In the same 26" size, there's the Mount and Ground 160, which has a tread better suited for road.
I could not justify the expense of the Nokias so I went with the much cheaper Innova Tundra Wolf from BikeTiresDirect out of Portland. These were only $24.95 each for the 700C x 35. These fit my Garry Fischer Hybrid nicely and have been amazing. We just had a real winter storm rolling through the other day and these tires realy worked. The wind was sweaping accross the road causing a nice layer of ice to form under about an inch of snow. With the studds the tires just moved along without any problems. My coworker realized that he HAD to get snow tires and ordered the Nokias this past Monday. I am interested to see how the Nokia W106 compares to my much cheaper Innovas. From the pictures I've see the tires look pretty similar. As time goes on this winter if I see any clear differences in how either one holds up I'll post the information so that others can make a more informed buying descision.
So far I've ridden through snow either during the morning or evening commute for the last few days and I am LOVING my studded snow tires. I do ride a little slower on these tires, but not whiping out on the slick roads is well worth a little extra effort.
Happy riding,
André
Those look good. My bikeshop suggests Nokians but they are $100 each which is pretty big for a commitment.
What's your knee worth? And if you knew that you could seriously reduce the odds of landing on it how much it that worth to you? To me it's WAY more than the $80 I spent on a set of studded tires.
Look, Studded tires aren't perfect, but damn, they are as close as you can get for ice. I swear by them, I hate falling, and they make it possible for me to ride all winter. From your descriptions I think they are exactly what you are looking for.
I ride the Nokian W106 on my cross bike. And as seen above, you can find them for around $40 a wheel if your lucky. I think they are worth it at full price. Carbide studs are better but more expensive.
It's worth mentioning too that technique is just as important as equipment in winter riding. Perhaps even more important than equipment.
Good technique can keep a studless rider upright, and poor technique can make a studded rider fall.
Two things that are very important: First, slow down before turning and don't lean in the turns. If you brake in a turn it's sure-fire way to go down. Leaning like you do in the dry will also take you down, which is why you turn at a much slower speed in the slippery stuff.
Second, ride loose and relaxed. This is the exact opposite of what your reflexes tell you to do. With a loose grip on the bars, relaxed arms, shoulders and back, you'll be able to ride out most anything. Death grip on the bars and stiff arms, shoulders and back, and it's much more difficult to maintain control, and certainly a lot less fun. (Note: You'll also stay warmer if you stay loose.)
I have to re-learn this every year, and sometimes every ride. Resisting the death grip, stiff and tense reflex is the hardest part of my winter riding.
So how can I gauge whether or not there is black ice?
Sadly, one CANNOT judge where the black ice is - or none of us would fall on it! Seriously, you need at least a front studded tire. Black ice hides everywhere. Don't be the guy who crashes on it and ends his winter cycling season early.
... Brad
It's worth mentioning too that technique is just as important as equipment in winter riding. Perhaps even more important than equipment.
Good technique can keep a studless rider upright, and poor technique can make a studded rider fall.
Two things that are very important: First, slow down before turning and don't lean in the turns. If you brake in a turn it's sure-fire way to go down. Leaning like you do in the dry will also take you down, which is why you turn at a much slower speed in the slippery stuff.
Second, ride loose and relaxed. This is the exact opposite of what your reflexes tell you to do. With a loose grip on the bars, relaxed arms, shoulders and back, you'll be able to ride out most anything. Death grip on the bars and stiff arms, shoulders and back, and it's much more difficult to maintain control, and certainly a lot less fun. (Note: You'll also stay warmer if you stay loose.)
I have to re-learn this every year, and sometimes every ride. Resisting the death grip, stiff and tense reflex is the hardest part of my winter riding.
Pretty much the same as driving a car when it's icy. Wheels is wheels.
In my neighborhood, a lot of folks own horses and ride 'em on the road.
I gotta watch out for that brown ice!
I love ice. With the Nokians on I can ride on it like concrete. It's a lot easier than chugging through snow, and I have never slipped on it. Buy the Nokians.
3900 posts on black ice. You the man!
I think I'll look into the 106s.
As to the worth of my knee. Um, good point. I value it much more after August and that is not because of the medical bills.
My sister keeps telling me to quit till April. But I can NOT see that! So... thanks you guys. This is not only very useful information but a good shot of support.
The main difference between the Innovas and the Nokians are the type of stud. The Innovas are steel, the Nokians are carbide. They will probably be about the same for the first year, but the Nokians (carbide) will last a second year, maybe even a third. I don't commute anymore (I work from home now), but when I did, and lived in DC, I had Innovas because I could not find any Nokians--I waited too long and everyone up there already bought them. Some of the studs popped out after a few ice storms, but we only had a few, so it worked for me.
I do miss my commute.
I just got a pair of Nokian Mount and Ground 160's today. Luckily my landlord keeps the driveway like a skating rink, and I was able to test them. Absolutley amazing! I was riding over spots I couldn't walk on. Can't wait for the ride tomorrow.
And what about riding 30 miles to set the studs in? My commute is on nothing but roads, so I should be fine right?
I've bashed my knees too many times riding in the winter.What I did was get a set of used hockey elbow and knee-pads at PlayItAgainSports(used sporting goods)for $8.I wear them under a pair of sweat pants so I'm not nearly as concerned at taking a fall.During the winter you're pretty well padded up top anyway.I smacked my elbow really good once(hence the elbow pads).It may not make a fashion statement but that 's not where I'm at anyway.
Homebrew winter tires with screws are for riding on lakes and ponds. They're downright dangerous on roads.
Strangely enough...my home-brewed studded tires seem to work just fine on the road as that's where they get all their use.
There are no studs running down the centre of my tires as that makes riding on dry pavement a very sketchy affair.
Homebrew winter tires with screws are for riding on lakes and ponds. They're downright dangerous on roads.
Strangely enough...my home-brewed studded tires seem to work just fine on the road as that's where they get all their use.
There are no studs running down the centre of my tires as that makes riding on dry pavement a very sketchy affair.
Same here. I'm entering my third winter on the same set of homebrews and I've yet to accidentally slip. It's an MTB fixie and I can make the rear skid on only the slickest of sections.
with a good headlight, or urban street lights it should be pretty easy to spot the black the ice from the glare off it. On a bike you see so much more than in a car, and a relatively slow speed allows much more time to react. I think as long as you don't touch the brakes you can drift across the black ice pretty smoothly. It really sucks to fall off (messed up my elbow in some Marin county dust last summer) but if you get into a controlled skid and lay the bike down you should be able to avoid serious injury, or I might not know what I'm talking about but that's my plan for now.
....if you get into a controlled skid and lay the bike down you should be able to avoid serious injury....
I think, with ice, there's not much chance of control (lacking studded tires). When you hit the ice, you either will "float" across it if you are in "equilibrium" (don't know what else to call it, but I mean that there is no turning moment), or you'll be down in a heartbeat.
The problem is that there is no friction with the surface to work with to maintain control.
There are many kinds of "ice" conditions. Almost limitless.
Many kinds of ice can be ridden on without studded tires. Mainly flat ice that has the top warmed by the sun and is a little soft. Like a lake on a sunny day.
There are lots of kinds of ice you could never possibly ride a bike over without studs, it's just impossible.
One example is a MUP with a lot of bumps and frozen 3" deep footprints in the ice that is frozen very, very, hard. But large tires with a good size air pocket and very low pressure can go right over it.
There are lots of variations in between that will work, and won't work with studs. The real answer about ice riding is "it depends". Not yes or no.
This was a warm day and no studs were needed the top of the ice was soft, almost damp. You just had to be very carefull. Thoses tires have no studs.
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/8425/hpim0324smallgr6.jpg
This was hard frozen and lots of huge bumps close together, one could not have ridden a two wheeled vehicle 10 feet without studs.
http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/9820/iceride3403mf1.jpg
Does Baily live in the Antarctic?
It's worth mentioning too that technique is just as important as equipment in winter riding. Perhaps even more important than equipment.
Good technique can keep a studless rider upright, and poor technique can make a studded rider fall.
Two things that are very important: First, slow down before turning and don't lean in the turns. If you brake in a turn it's sure-fire way to go down. Leaning like you do in the dry will also take you down, which is why you turn at a much slower speed in the slippery stuff.
Second, ride loose and relaxed. This is the exact opposite of what your reflexes tell you to do. With a loose grip on the bars, relaxed arms, shoulders and back, you'll be able to ride out most anything. Death grip on the bars and stiff arms, shoulders and back, and it's much more difficult to maintain control, and certainly a lot less fun. (Note: You'll also stay warmer if you stay loose.)
I have to re-learn this every year, and sometimes every ride. Resisting the death grip, stiff and tense reflex is the hardest part of my winter riding.
+1 that's really good advice, well stated. And like you I need to relearn it every year.
Or ice of any color.
Studs take all the drama out of winter riding. Besides letting your ride safely on ice, the also let you stop and steer on it.
I was riding mid-pack on a group ride last night (26 riders, snowing, temps in the lower 20s). Pulling up to a stop sign, the front riders began calling out "Ice, right". I saw snow, but not ice. Then I put my foot down after stopping. I had stopped on the (white) ice which was hidden under the snow. My foot slid a little when I put it down, but holding the brakes kept me in place. Then two (studless) riders behind me slid into the back of my bike. Ooopsie!
The point here is that the studs work so well, I needed my foot and other riders to know I was even on ice.
tsl I live just south of you, so similar weather, just a bit less snow. My commute does involve hills, and I've considered studs for all the reasons listed in this and other threads on riding on icy roads.
But as you know the weather around here can be pretty variable. If I knew I'd be commuting on snow and ice all winter I'd have no hesitation. But sometimes we get dry or warmer spells in which there's no ice or snow.
How do studded tires affect performance on dry roads? If I want to go out and do a 20 mile ride, including hills, on dry roads, what effect will studs have?
The other option is to ride a trike.
They might skid, but don't fall over.
Anticipate where ice might be. Where ever a puddle might exist is where the ice hides so don't ride in the low areas. I find the fear of falling is worse than the fall itself. Go out in the backyard and fall in the snow a few times. That might help you relax on the road.
;)
You might want to take some classes at a local gymnastics, dance, or martial arts school to learn how to fall without hurting yourself.
I've bashed my knees too many times riding in the winter.What I did was get a set of used hockey elbow and knee-pads at PlayItAgainSports(used sporting goods)for $8.I wear them under a pair of sweat pants so I'm not nearly as concerned at taking a fall.During the winter you're pretty well padded up top anyway.I smacked my elbow really good once(hence the elbow pads).It may not make a fashion statement but that 's not where I'm at anyway.
I suppose rollerblading pads would work as well?
If you do feel yourself going, as soon as you realize that you aren't going to be able to make a recovery, go as limp as you can. Get your soft tissues to absorb as much of the impact as you can; you may be bruised, but with no broken bones you should be able to get home OK.
Does Baily live in the Antarctic?
No, but he knows a couple of Huskys ! Does that count ? :D
Same here. I'm entering my third winter on the same set of homebrews and I've yet to accidentally slip. It's an MTB fixie and I can make the rear skid on only the slickest of sections.
My winter bike is now a fixed gear after spending last winter as an ss... the fixed gear is a huge improvement over the ss as there is much more control and feedback when I am riding and to date I have had no falls on this bike.
Prior to this I rode my hardtail as my winter bike, with no studs and suffered no falls and also have my cross bike to use if the streets are dry enough.
Right now we have a good amount of snow and extremely icy roads and with only a front studded tire I have been doing fine with no traction issues.
But as you know the weather around here can be pretty variable. If I knew I'd be commuting on snow and ice all winter I'd have no hesitation. But sometimes we get dry or warmer spells in which there's no ice or snow.
How do studded tires affect performance on dry roads? If I want to go out and do a 20 mile ride, including hills, on dry roads, what effect will studs have?
The Nokians are a little buzzy through the bars, and you'll hear the studs on the pavement, but they're not significantly different in handling or control in the dry. I was pleasantly surprised for discover this. I had expected cornering to be exciting for all the wrong reasons. It's not.
On the other hand, they're much heavier than my road tires--something like 850 grams each. Coupled with the gumwall construction, they take 2-3 MPH off my speeds on dry pavement in good conditions. A 13-mile route where I average 16.7 to 17.3 with the road tires, I did recently at 13.9. It was about the same last year on a completely different bike (weight, geometry, gearing).
Last year I kept an eye on the five-day forecast and switched tires whenever it looked like 3-4 days of good, above freezing weather. I've gone a step further this year and have two wheelsets. This also lets me use a different cassette. I strongly prefer close-ratio cassettes. I run a 12-23 (10-speed) with the road tires, vs. a 16-27 with the snows. That makes a world of difference given that the snows are harder to push. I'm very happy with the lower gearing.
If I didn't have choices, or if I found swapping to be a chore, I'd leave them on all winter. Since I don't mind changing tires and I have choices, I take them.
The Nokians are a little buzzy through the bars, and you'll hear the studs on the pavement, but they're not significantly different in handling or control in the dry. I was pleasantly surprised for discover this. I had expected cornering to be exciting for all the wrong reasons. It's not.
On the other hand, they're much heavier than my road tires--something like 850 grams each. Coupled with the gumwall construction, they take 2-3 MPH off my speeds on dry pavement in good conditions. A 13-mile route where I average 16.7 to 17.3 with the road tires, I did recently at 13.9. It was about the same last year on a completely different bike (weight, geometry, gearing).
Last year I kept an eye on the five-day forecast and switched tires whenever it looked like 3-4 days of good, above freezing weather. I've gone a step further this year and have two wheelsets. This also lets me use a different cassette. I strongly prefer close-ratio cassettes. I run a 12-23 (10-speed) with the road tires, vs. a 16-27 with the snows. That makes a world of difference given that the snows are harder to push. I'm very happy with the lower gearing.
If I didn't have choices, or if I found swapping to be a chore, I'd leave them on all winter. Since I don't mind changing tires and I have choices, I take them.
Great this is very helpful. Thanks tsl.
tsl... you bring up something bothering my newbie mind. Alas, I have never changed a bike tire (I can hear the jeers from here!) How hard is it? Can't be too bad. I read a million posts about I switch this, I switched that and now here you are switching back and forth according to thermometer readings! Though I do get the allure of different wheel sets for ease. I think I'm going to get the mount and ground or the hak 106 for my mtb (also appreciate your comment on gearing, I had figured as much) and I'd like to put them on myself. Should I just go to that online cycling bible the name of which I forget and do they have step by step instructions? Literally I'm at the point where I'm thinking.. okay, probably you have to deflate the tire before removal. More jeers from the gallery? Okay, but I can laugh at myself, and heartily, too. But if you can point me to a site... or give me pointers....
Shhhhhh.
oh, and I have always enjoyed your avatar.
Mulchie--Keep in mind that all the switching reflects my personality and lifestyle. Most people I know IRL (In Real Life) and most people here just put the snows on once and don't mess with it until spring. Me? I enjoy tinkering and I have the time to do it. Further, I have this obsession with getting faster. So whenever the opportunity comes along to instantly gain 2-3 mph, I take it.
On the other hand, it wasn't until I was changing tires frequently last winter that I got pretty good at it. I ruined a tube or two along the way, but that's tuition in the school of hard knocks.
I don't have any manuals or online references to send you to. I knew the basic principles from working at a garage changing car tires years and years ago. I watched a ride partner fix a flat one day to learn the different execution of the principles as applied to bike tires. Ask up on the Bicycle Mechanics forum. I'm sure someone there knows where you can find online instruction.
As for the gearing, again, that's my personal preferences showing. (I'm also aware of the consequences--both physical and mechanical.) Most riders I know are perfectly happy with standard cassettes having several-tooth jumps between the the gears. (And for MTBers, that's really the only choice out there.) I like being able to fine-tune effort vs. speed, particularly in varying terrain and headwinds. Close-ratio cassettes let me do that.
When I switched to 10-speed this year, I was delighted to find Shimano makes a 16-27 Ultegra cassette. So now I have three for this bike. The original 12-27 which I almost never use, the 12-23 on the three-season wheelset, and the 16-27 on the winter wheelset.
In any event, before becoming concerned with constantly switching tires or messing with cassettes and gear ratios, see if just putting on the snows and riding works for you by itself. It does for the vast majority of riders.
With studded tires, black ice is a wonderful riding surface. Once you hit it, the stud buzz suddenly stops and the ride takes on a dreamlike smoothness. Nokian W-106 is good for commuting on roads. They make more aggressive tires, but the rooling resistance is much greater.
Paul
Hey, TSL- trust me, I'm not also going to start changing chains! I took apart typewriters as a kid (teens) and that was fun, but that was then. I'll stick with what's on what I got. I think I'm going to have my LBS put on the tires this time but ask if I can watch. I used to be a reporter, and that's how I learn best.
thanks for all your help.
And Paul, I'm risking the increased resistance and going for the m&g 160, but appreciate the thought. Hi to my old home town, where I NEVER biked.
Here's some video I shot of a typical Anchorage street. You can see various patterns of ice and snow. With the nokians on this is a VERY stable ride, though you'll not set any land speed records.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY7jlp6lIUE
I've actually had much more trouble with lots of fresh snow. Also, this stuff I call "rime" ice that builds up under certain conditions can be surprisingly tough to pedal through, though it doesn't look like much. It's like a million little ice crystals that build tiny forests of ice all over the concrete, each one putting up resistance to your tire. Last weekend that stuff was over miles of otherwise clear track and it left me feeling like I was riding up a serious hill.
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