Foo - I'm so ****** pissed.

Some of you may remember I made a thread about what 5 Billion dollars should be used for for a developing country. The project was to pick a country (I picked Bhutan) and wrote 5-7 pages about how 5 Billion dollars could be used for sustainable development. When all was said and done I got 7 pages and a final grade of 96%.

So my "friend" waited till 10:00pm on the night before it was due, half asses it, and tries to finish it up a few periods before the class. He ended up getting a 40% and that he must re-do it.

Well see we're assigned to pick a day in December or Jan. and present to the class why we should win. We're required to give the students an outline of our project.

He needed help re-write and he asked if I could see mine. I said eh at first, but then I lent it to him for a night (it ended up being a few days). I specifically said to NOT copy it or ANYTHING!!.. his reply: "haha why the f would I copy anything!"

Today he went to present and when he handed out his outline, it was like 90+% of what my paper was on!!!!!:mad::mad: even though his country was different and much more affluent.

WTF was he thinking. I had brilliant ideas such as creating a department under their current Ministry of Economics that was called something like Grant Assesment and Allocation Center..he copied that and reworded it, distributued the money just like I did but with further rewording, and damnit to hell everything.
I didn't confront him today, because I wasn't sure how or when I was going to do it. I just avioded him as much as I could, even though he asks me some questions about other classes. Now that I think of it, ever since I was a freshman, I had to tolerate him. I don't even know why I call him a friend. (he only has a few) He always tries to belittle me and make me jealous. Like he got a fancy new phone with TV and internet capabilites, which he ALWAYS has out infront of me, sound blaring.. then a new SUV, which he purposely parks next to me in the parking lot, and jsut a bunch of other crap.
How should I go about confronting this? I worked my ass off the night it was due and he steals my ideas. Pisses me off.:mad:

That kinda sucks, but what did you expect would happen by lending him the paper? Why would he have borrowed it for any reason OTHER than to see (e.g. steal) your ideas.

Life Lesson #20049

um, you should recognize him for what he is and decline to help him anymore. he'll be able to fall on his ass even without your help

Ask to borrow his bike. Just for one night. Heh, heh.

Are you in college? This sounds very high school. Either way, talk to teacher/prof if you continue to be angry. They messed up in not catching the plagiarism.

Btw, he obviously thinks you're smarter than he is. Maybe you should just take the compliment but never help him again.

Life sucks.

Hope you learned something here.

Doh!

I miss high school. Wait, no I don't.

Up until this summer I sat on the Academic Integrity Committee at a major university.

If you had both been in college, chances are your prof would have turned both of you in without thinking twice. In cases like this it's not uncommon for both students to receive an F for the course along with an academic sanction.

My advice:

1. Stay away from people like this.

2. Never share your work under any circumstances.

My advice:

Kill your friend or charge him a hefty sum for the work you did for him.

Up until this summer I sat on the Academic Integrity Committee at a major university.

If you had both been in college, chances are your prof would have turned both of you in without thinking twice. In cases like this it's not uncommon for both students to receive an F for the course along with an academic sanction.

My advice:

1. Stay away from people like this.

2. Never share your work under any circumstances.

If that is the law, then the law is an ass.

EJ was already finished with his work. His only motivation in reporting this incident is becaue he feels wronged and felt that the alledged plagiarism was wrong. What would he stand to gain?

The effect of your university's cockamanie policy goes against thousands of years of academic tradition--students should discuss their work, discussion is different than stealing. This wasn't an exam from a math course with only one right answer, this was some sort of social studies class assignment.

The policy also lets the lazy professor off the hook. It's kind of like a guy reports a theft and the cops say, OK you and the thief are both going to jail.

To me, the real question is to what extent plagiarism actually occurred. From EJ's description, maybe, maybe not.

But, you're probably right given the present state of learning institutions in this country.

EJ, lawyer up. ;)

First of all #1 he isn't you friend.

Second, go talk to the teacher.

Hopefully, he'll have a teacher like me. I don't take kindly to this kind of stuff- I can smell a cheat a mile away. He'd fail the course. And yes, I've done that- to two students several years back.

How to Kill Someone with your Bare Hands (http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=511040)

Also, understand that if you DO go talk to the teacher, you will possibly face sanctions yourself! Just a heads up.

Personally, I'd be telling this guy to "F" off and never, ever help him again, since he took advantage of your naivety.


First of all #1 he isn't you friend.

Second, go talk to the teacher.

Some of you may remember I made a thread about what 5 Billion dollars should be used for for a developing country. The project was to pick a country (I picked Bhutan) and wrote 5-7 pages about how 5 Billion dollars could be used for sustainable development. When all was said and done I got 7 pages and a final grade of 96%.

So my "friend" waited till 10:00pm on the night before it was due, half asses it, and tries to finish it up a few periods before the class. He ended up getting a 40% and that he must re-do it.

Well see we're assigned to pick a day in December or Jan. and present to the class why we should win. We're required to give the students an outline of our project.

He needed help re-write and he asked if I could see mine. I said eh at first, but then I lent it to him for a night (it ended up being a few days). I specifically said to NOT copy it or ANYTHING!!.. his reply: "haha why the f would I copy anything!"

Today he went to present and when he handed out his outline, it was like 90+% of what my paper was on!!!!!:mad::mad: even though his country was different and much more affluent.

WTF was he thinking. I had brilliant ideas such as creating a department under their current Ministry of Economics that was called something like Grant Assesment and Allocation Center..he copied that and reworded it, distributued the money just like I did but with further rewording, and damnit to hell everything.
I didn't confront him today, because I wasn't sure how or when I was going to do it. I just avioded him as much as I could, even though he asks me some questions about other classes. Now that I think of it, ever since I was a freshman, I had to tolerate him. I don't even know why I call him a friend. (he only has a few) He always tries to belittle me and make me jealous. Like he got a fancy new phone with TV and internet capabilites, which he ALWAYS has out infront of me, sound blaring.. then a new SUV, which he purposely parks next to me in the parking lot, and jsut a bunch of other crap.
How should I go about confronting this? I worked my ass off the night it was due and he steals my ideas. Pisses me off.:mad:

Are you presentin' in front of the same teacher who already gave you your grades on the written portion? ;)

Two words EJ... Cock punch!

best advice EVAR!

EJ, if any one at all at your school knows that you post here, do NOT NOT joke about telling your "friend" to F off, cock punch, kill him with your bare hands, etc etc. Your schools Committe on the Public Safety will likely taser you and send you off the local juvie version of Gitmo. Schools are very paranoid about those kind of things on teh webz. I know you haven't said those things, but just sayin' since others are sayin'.

First of all #1 he isn't you friend.

Second, go talk to the teacher.

yup. :)

Waitholdon. Did I just agree with Jon? *looks at who posted this*

Aww mannnnnnnnn.

EJ, if any one at all at your school knows that you post here, do NOT NOT joke about telling your "friend" to F off, cock punch, kill him with your bare hands, etc etc. Your schools Committe on the Public Safety will likely taser you and send you off the local juvie version of Gitmo. Schools are very paranoid about those kind of things on teh webz. I know you haven't said those things, but just sayin' since others are sayin'.

You're an interesting newcomer to these parts of the forum.

You're an interesting newcomer to these parts of the forum.

You're right, measured in Foo years I am but an infant. Tis you who must protect me.

I hate the word tis, but tis the season dammit.

You're right, measured in Foo years I am but an infant. Tis you who must protect me.

I hate the word tis, but tis the season dammit.

:roflmao:

Heh. I feel like I know Doolally's wit, writing, and expressive style from somewhere.... <pensive Vega look>

Heh. I feel like I know Doolally's wit, writing, and expressive style from somewhere.... <pensive Vega look>

Ah, here we have mystery. I'll be one of the Hardy Boys while you are Nancy-The Vega-Drew and we can find out who this masked newbie is. If I had to take a guess, it could be Prisoner, but most likely not.

Heh. I feel like I know Doolally's wit, writing, and expressive style from somewhere.... <pensive Vega look>

That seems unlikely... < constipated Doolally look >


...unless you happen to read a lot of Scientology tracts...pays the bills.

That seems unlikely... < constipated Doolally look >


...unless you happen to read a lot of Scientology tracts...pays the bills.

:eek: <slinkin' off, shakin' head in disbelief, lookin' back, pausin', then slinkin' away>

Actually, if you are in University, you can speak to your instructor. It's within the instructor's baliwick to simply force him to redo the paper and remove any plagiarism, or simply fail him for it. S/he will likely tell you to not trust anyone else, and that sharing a paper like that can be considered cheating.

I had this happen to me as an undergrad, and I had to report it. My instructor failed the other guy's paper and when he complained, she said she could report it to the AcInt committee and let them arbitrate it. Talk to your instructor first, explain. Be prepared to take some heat, though. It was not a smart thing. Share ideas, not research.

First of all #1 he isn't you friend.

Second, go talk to the teacher.


Actually, if you are in University, you can speak to your instructor. It's within the instructor's baliwick to simply force him to redo the paper and remove any plagiarism, or simply fail him for it. S/he will likely tell you to not trust anyone else, and that sharing a paper like that can be considered cheating.

I had this happen to me as an undergrad, and I had to report it. My instructor failed the other guy's paper and when he complained, she said she could report it to the AcInt committee and let them arbitrate it. Talk to your instructor first, explain. Be prepared to take some heat, though. It was not a smart thing. Share ideas, not research.

On the ladder of respectability, snitches are down there with telemarketers and way below cheaters.

Don't be a fink. The Man wants you to be a fink. The Man never wants what's best for you. Maintain your diginity, take your licks, learn you lesson, and don't let anyone abuse your generosity again. In the real world, people WILL steal your ideas if you let them and they WILL get away with it.

EDIT: Instead of being a soulless rat fink, confront your friend and let him know just how big of a piece of **** he is to abuse your trust and to put your grade in danger if the teacher were to catch on to what's going down. If he shrugs it off, you push him in front of a train.

On the ladder of respectability, snitches are down there with telemarketers and way below cheaters.

Don't be a fink. The Man wants you to be a fink. The Man never wants what's best for you. Maintain your diginity, take your licks, learn you lesson, and don't let anyone abuse your generosity again. In the real world, people WILL steal your ideas if you let them and they WILL get away with it.

EDIT: Instead of being a soulless rat fink, confront your friend and let him know just how big of a piece of **** he is to abuse your trust and to put your grade in danger if the teacher were to catch on to what's going down. If he shrugs it off, you push him in front of a train.

That's the best piece of advice I've ever read, and its all true.

If you were to tell the teacher you let him borrow paper for the reason you stated, I can't see why that would put your grade in danger. If you had let him have the paper to copy, then why would you go to the teacher with the problem?

That's the best piece of advice I've ever read, and its all true.

I second that.

On the ladder of respectability, snitches are down there with telemarketers and way below cheaters.

Don't be a fink. The Man wants you to be a fink. The Man never wants what's best for you. Maintain your diginity, take your licks, learn you lesson, and don't let anyone abuse your generosity again. In the real world, people WILL steal your ideas if you let them and they WILL get away with it.

EDIT: Instead of being a soulless rat fink, confront your friend and let him know just how big of a piece of **** he is to abuse your trust and to put your grade in danger if the teacher were to catch on to what's going down. If he shrugs it off, you push him in front of a train.

Whatever - academics and real life are two separate things - the only thing that matters in academics is the grade. Its not snitching to report someone stealing your research - only thieves worry about snitches and finks.

EP did get one thing right - people will steal an idea quicker than a politician can lie - and if you let them, will get away with it. There is no conscience when you get paid. So be it.

Sun Tsu said, "The general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: how much more no calculation at all! It is by attention to this point that I can foresee who is likely to win or lose."

In other words, take the best of both of these ideas and run with it. Get him in trouble with the administration as well as personally whip him/chew him out/make him cry. Your bud there played you like a sucker when he stole your idea - rat him out, make him face an academic retribution, and then kick his ass if you feel like it. Get the grade, screw his over, and beat em down. A layered attack will defeat the singleminded defender.

If that is the law, then the law is an ass.

If the person came forward and reported the plagiarist, then they'd probably still get a slap on the wrist for violating academic integrity, maybe a reduced grade on the assignment, but not a failure for the course.

If the prof has to turn the case over to us because he or she is uncertain who is the original author and who is the plagiarist, we don't take time to sort through the he said/she said either. We just hand out Fs and rubber stamp the documents to protect everyone from a law suit.

That's why I'm telling the OP to wisen up. You don't want to be on the ass end of something like this.

On the ladder of respectability, snitches are down there with telemarketers and way below cheaters.

Don't be a fink. The Man wants you to be a fink. The Man never wants what's best for you. Maintain your diginity, take your licks, learn you lesson, and don't let anyone abuse your generosity again. In the real world, people WILL steal your ideas if you let them and they WILL get away with it.

EDIT: Instead of being a soulless rat fink, confront your friend and let him know just how big of a piece of **** he is to abuse your trust and to put your grade in danger if the teacher were to catch on to what's going down. If he shrugs it off, you push him in front of a train.
It's so refreshing to see your posts again, explody. :)

why the hell would you loan someone your paper? you ought just kick him in the balls when no one's around and walk away like nothing happened.

your friend is a sorry POS.

If the person came forward and reported the plagiarist, then they'd probably still get a slap on the wrist for violating academic integrity, maybe a reduced grade on the assignment, but not a failure for the course.

If the prof has to turn the case over to us because he or she is uncertain who is the original author and who is the plagiarist, we don't take time to sort through the he said/she said either. We just hand out Fs and rubber stamp the documents to protect everyone from a law suit.

That's why I'm telling the OP to wisen up. You don't want to be on the ass end of something like this.

Would it be fair to say, v1k1ng1001, that after lazily handing out the F's, casually ruining some young peoples' academic careers, poisoning academic discourse, frightening off future petitioners, letting the professor off the hook, and protecting yourselves from a lawsuit, that the committee members would happily cash their paychecks and go home?

You have a rather entertaining notion of "academic integrity."

Sounds like EJ has more academic integrity than your committee and university all rolled together.

On the ladder of respectability, snitches are down there with telemarketers and way below cheaters.

Don't be a fink. The Man wants you to be a fink. The Man never wants what's best for you. Maintain your diginity, take your licks, learn you lesson, and don't let anyone abuse your generosity again. In the real world, people WILL steal your ideas if you let them and they WILL get away with it.

EDIT: Instead of being a soulless rat fink, confront your friend and let him know just how big of a piece of **** he is to abuse your trust and to put your grade in danger if the teacher were to catch on to what's going down. If he shrugs it off, you push him in front of a train.

Bull****. So if someone you know steals your car, you're not going to report them to the police? It's attitudes like this that help people get off with all sorts of criminal activities, of which plagiarism is most certainly one.


If the person came forward and reported the plagiarist, then they'd probably still get a slap on the wrist for violating academic integrity, maybe a reduced grade on the assignment, but not a failure for the course.

If the prof has to turn the case over to us because he or she is uncertain who is the original author and who is the plagiarist, we don't take time to sort through the he said/she said either. We just hand out Fs and rubber stamp the documents to protect everyone from a law suit.

That's why I'm telling the OP to wisen up. You don't want to be on the ass end of something like this.

So your definition of "academic integrity" is to never tell anyone anything about your work ever, in case they steal it. What a load of rubbish. I work in academic research (biochemistry), and it is the sharing of ideas that is the fundamental basis for the formation of all knowledge. Even where that knowledge is borne out by experiment, it is often the ideas and suggestions of others that lead to the correct work being done. To suggest anything less undermines the foundation of academia itself.

Would it be fair to say, v1k1ng1001, that after lazily handing out the F's, casually ruining some young peoples' academic careers, poisoning academic discourse, frightening off future petitioners, letting the professor off the hook, and protecting yourselves from a lawsuit, that the committee members would happily cash their paychecks and go home?

It turns out that I don't get paid for the extra work, so yeah, I'm happy to get the work out of the way once a month. About 90% of our case load is comprised of open-and-shut cases involving plagiarizing sources from the internet. I have no problem handing out an F or even an academic sanction for cutting and pasting. The undergrad representatives on the committee don't have a problem with this either.

When a student does challenge the findings of the prof, we convene the committee for an actual hearing. For whatever reason, students generally confirm the appointment but do not show up to defend themselves. We usually spend the time chatting with the prof for the obligatory 15 minute wait period before acting on the prof's recommendation and moving on to our next hearing.

I don't really think of myself as ruining people's academic careers. If they've been copying from other students and internet, what is there to ruin? The truth is that these students are probably far better off learning the lesson that you're not entitled to a degree.

Meanwhile the university rejects close to 9,000 admissions per year. We're not about to run dry any time soon.

Sly and cold. I like it!

So, since your U. receive 9,000 admissions a year, there's no need to be fair to the students you have there now. You oughta put that boast in the glossy brochures.

I'm too full of love today to tediously hold you to the original example. You are apparently an academic and/or a lawyer. I am but a human being.

And, I gotta say, if the smart but meek were actually able to prevent the powerful and arrogant from stealing ideas, the world would be in worse shape than it is. The real trick is getting your ideas stolen by the right people, and not suppressed by the wrong ones.

So your definition of "academic integrity" is to never tell anyone anything about your work ever, in case they steal it. What a load of rubbish. I work in academic research (biochemistry), and it is the sharing of ideas that is the fundamental basis for the formation of all knowledge. Even where that knowledge is borne out by experiment, it is often the ideas and suggestions of others that lead to the correct work being done. To suggest anything less undermines the foundation of academia itself.

Collaboration is one thing, copying and pasting is another. Most of the cases that we wind up reviewing resemble the latter.

And, as far as that goes, sharing ideas is a nice ideal that we like to hold up when it suits our purposes. You can trust your friends I suppose. The bottom line, however, is that publications are academic capital. There's always someone desperate enough to publish your work as their own given the chance. I've seen entire departments reduced to smoking craters following one scholar's accusation that a colleague has unfairly advanced his or her career by lifting another's work.

Yes, but EJ had already 'published' his work, handed it in, got his grade. Perhaps his "friend" need only have attributed the idea to EJ, and then made the application of the idea his own. And since we're talking high school here, proper citation methods are not necessarily something these students already know.

Sure cut and pasting is wrong, but you've deftly changed the scenario to match your prescribed punishment. Manipulative.

And I like that.

So, since your U. receive 9,000 admissions a year, there's no need to be fair to the students you have there now. You oughta put that boast in the glossy brochures.

I'm too full of love today to tediously hold you to the original example. You are apparently an academic and/or a lawyer. I am but a human being.


The glossy brochures are misleading for about a bizillion other reasons. Large universities are credit-hour factories that have the budget to hire relatively sharp marketing firms. I have nothing to do with any of that. Maybe you can call the "consumer consultant" who has replaced the dean of admissions?

In my classes I am excessively clear about what my expectations are regarding academic integrity, and what happens when a student falls short. If you plagiarize, you receive an F for the course. Sounds harsh, but I can tell you that I'm sick to death of reading the wikipedia articles that students turn in for credit. You shouldn't be allowed a degree simply because you've learned to cut from FireFox and paste in MSWord.

Yes, but EJ had already 'published' his work, handed it in, got his grade. Perhaps his "friend" need only have attributed the idea to EJ, and then made the application of the idea his own. And since we're talking high school here, proper citation methods are not necessarily something these students already know.

Sure cut and pasting is wrong, but you've deftly changed the scenario to match your prescribed punishment. Manipulative.

And I like that.

Sure, citing another student is fine. That is not what was going on in the original post though.

Our committee is incapable of sorting out the intent in a case like the OP's. So if the student turns in his friend, he will probably receive the sanction recommended by the professor. The friend will fail the course. I'm not sure why this would constitute an injustice in your eyes.

My point in all this is to say that it is better to avoid this situation altogether.

Interestingly, the one thing I have learned is that academic integrity standards for faculty aren't as strict as those for students. That is clearly not fair, but I have no say in such things.

V1k1ng1001, if you have evidence that EJ cut and pasted from Wikipedia in his paper I suggest you produce that evidence. :rolleyes: Otherwise, perhaps you should drop that line of argument as it is at best irrelevant and at worst a slur.


Up until this summer I sat on the Academic Integrity Committee at a major university.

If you had both been in college, chances are your prof would have turned both of you in without thinking twice. In cases like this it's not uncommon for both students to receive an F for the course along with an academic sanction.



But, hold on:


So if the student turns in his friend, he will probably receive the sanction recommended by the professor. The friend will fail the course.

Shake it on baby, now, twist and shout! How can I agree with you when you so rarely agree with yourself?

We do agree that your University's current integrity committee is apparently entirely incapable of handling these matters. It should be disbanded immediately, its members fired from the university, and a new committee composed of faculty and students enpaneled. EJ can chair it. :)

Agreed?


Personally I question the entire premise of EJ's case. EJ recommended that the government of Bhutan face its problems by forming a new ministry to throw money at said problems. If that constitutes an original idea of governance every President since Washington should get an F, an academic sanction, and a lecture from Oprah.

V1k1ng1001, if you have evidence that EJ cut and pasted from Wikipedia in his paper I suggest you produce that evidence. :rolleyes: Otherwise, perhaps you should drop that line of argument as it is at best irrelevant and at worst a slur.

Shake it on baby, now, twist and shout! How can I agree with you when you so rarely agree with yourself?

I see the source of the confusion. You cut and pasted my post in #35 without actually reading it. Good job.


We do agree that your University's current integrity committee is apparently entirely incapable of handling these matters. It should be disbanded immediately, its members fired from the university, and a new committee composed of faculty and students enpaneled. EJ can chair it. :)

Personally I question the entire premise of EJ's case. EJ recommended that the government of Bhutan face its problems by forming a new ministry to throw money at said problems. If that constitutes an original idea of governance every President since Washington should get an F, an academic sanction, and a lecture from Oprah.

The other source of the confusion is that you don't understand what is objectionable in EJ's case. He would receive a sanction for having shared his assignment, not because he plagiarized, but because he enabled another student. If he turned his friend in, then he would probably receive a slap on the wrist from us, no big deal. If the professor had to turn him in, we'd probably issue an F for the assignment. If, on the other hand, the prof turned the papers over to us saying, "Look, these papers are the same and both students claim to be the original author," we'd fail both of them for the course.

The academic integrity committee could be disbanded but I'm sure some other committee or, god forbid, the faculty senate would have to be convened to do so. A visible, public battle would threaten the committee's real purpose which is to legitimize the status quo. The university has a vested interest in keeping things the way they are.

And, if you think about it, a new committee operating under the same rules would be equally unable to sort the original author from the plagiarist.

So my advice still stands: don't put yourself in the position to begin with.

So my advice still stands: don't put yourself in the position to begin with.

I'm sure that advice is of considerable comfort to EJ in his present sitatauation.

I love academics. More contortionists than Cirque de Soleil.

Yup, I'm thoroughly confused with what I am to do.

I think V1k1ng is advising you to construct a time machine, though the details of the construction are a bit hazy.