Fifty Plus (50+) - Political Science

stapfam's post about the shopping trip prompted me to wax political about "leaving the country" --which is not so easy to do in the US. Many of us in the heartland could go a thousand miles in just about any direction and not leave the country. And most probably don't even have passports. So,... I might want to go to:

Canada: clearly our best friends (and anybody who says otherwise is itching for a fight).

Mexico: they love us but can't say it publicly for fear of deportation (I support full amnesty, but usually have to duck after saying that).

UK: wish I could summer in the west country. I do enjoy it over there.

France: definitely misunderstood by the typical heartland redneck (we all have elements of this) largely for their vocal stance against US invasion tendencies. Personally I'd consider them our oldest friend. Only a dear friend can presume to criticize and offer to be a "conscience"

Other foreign cities/countries I'd consider visiting... Dubai, Germany, anything on the Mediterranian, Bermuda, Australia (most definitely), New Zealand, New York, Detroit, ...

So where else have you travelled and connected with people??

Iceland was very interesting and since I visited it in February, in between living in California and Arkansas, I took inspiration from the bicyclists there and how actively they rode in the cold and snow.


I have to agree with you about France. Without France, we would still be a colony of Great Britain. Americans seem to forget that. France paid heavily for their support of the American colonies. The drain on their resources was enough that it eventually triggered their own revolution.

Freedom Fries should be called French Fries to honor their sacrifice for our freedom. ;)

Having worked in France- I can assure you that the French and their way of life- are fantastic. But only if they accept you. There are a great number of predudices in France from the authorities and the people. Drive through Normandy on the backroads in a British- And I dare say an American car and in one village you will be waved at- The next it will be bricks thrown at you. Stems from after D Day when no nonsense was allowed from the "Invading" Troops. As the troops went through- If a village helped the invaders- they were assisted by the invaders. If the Germans were holed up- the village was decimated to get rid of the Germans. That predudice still existed 10 years ago and is the same right through France. The years passing will get rid of this- but the last time the English upset the French was at the Battle of Waterloo. The French never mention it- because they never refer to it themselves. They will hold a grudge for generations- Just like the Mafia.

Canada: clearly our best friends (and anybody who says otherwise is itching for a fight).

Mexico: they love us but can't say it publicly for fear of deportation (I support full amnesty, but usually have to duck after saying that).



How much time have you spent in Canada?

It would be easy to support full amnesty in Illinois. Now, imagine a civil war in southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, and south Texas in about forty years or so (and one need only look at other countries to see a possible consequence). Nothing is ever in the national news about the drug war raging in Nuevo Laredo and sometimes Laredo....as we speak.

Do you support more and more people just breaking our laws, not paying income taxes, and using the infrastructure of the American economy?

Feel free to move this to P&R.

Freedom Fries should be called French Fries to honor their sacrifice for our freedom. ;)

I think WWI and WWII more than settled that debt.

France: definitely misunderstood by the typical heartland redneck (we all have elements of this) largely for their vocal stance against US invasion tendencies. Personally I'd consider them our oldest friend. Only a dear friend can presume to criticize and offer to be a "conscience"


Well said, thanks. We, French, also owe a lot to Americans. D-Day restored our freedom.
Only real friends will step up to try to stop you from doing a big mistake, others will take the cash and laugh.

How much time have you spent in Canada?

It would be easy to support full amnesty in Illinois. Now, imagine a civil war in southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, and south Texas in about forty years or so (and one need only look at other countries to see a possible consequence). Nothing is ever in the national news about the drug war raging in Nuevo Laredo and sometimes Laredo....as we speak.

Do you support more and more people just breaking our laws, not paying income taxes, and using the infrastructure of the American economy?

Feel free to move this to P&R. As a southern Californian living less than 50 miles north of the border, I have to concur. Easterners and midwesterners simply do not understand the magnitude of the problem and the sheer numbers of people involved in this "quiet invasion." Of course, Mexico has precisely the same problem we do, with invasion across its southern borders. The problem will continue until the Mexican government gets a handle on the corruption of its politicians and police force; dropping Napoleonic law in favor of English common law, and a rising activist middle class, won't hurt, either.

Earlier in my career I lived in Papua New Guinea, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, and Singapore for about 6 years. During this time, I traveled over much of South and East Asia. I then did a 1 year stint in England. My wife and I have taken our kids on vacations to Belize, Mexico, and several European countries. I still enjoy travel and may look for an overseas job again in the next few years to lead me up to retirement.

Although I have enjoyed the adventure of travel in various countries and meeting different people, there is no place to live like the USA. For convenience of lifestyle, recreational opportunities, cost of living, security, etc... I may move away again, but I'll be back.

Ted

Travelled to the following countries--mostly by bike--and loved them all.

Greece
Italy (Including the separate "nations" of The Vatican and San Marino)
Austria
Switzerland
Lichtenstein
France
the UK
Ireland
Belgium
Netherland
Luxumbourg
Germany
Denmark
Sweden
Canada
Mexico

With an open mind and an open heart and a willingness to learn a few phrases in the native language, you're likely to have a grand time in any number of places, even my native state of New Jersey.

I've been to Europe and South Africa (which was beautiful and fascinating). I'd like to visit Chile and Argentina and Brazil and Peru, not to mention Australia and New Zealand, China, Japan, and Turkey and Greece. Been to Iceland as well. I love Canada and wouldn't mind living there at all except for the snow. I've also been to Texas, but that's so foreign I didn't understand most of it.

A couple of countries I visited (not biked) where I found locals (outside of the tourist/hotel industry) to be outstanding and truly friendly: Ireland and Greece.
As Jet Travis said a little effort to blend and not act as a spoiled bratty dollar loaded tourist makes a heck of a difference any place you go... even in France.

I've been to New York and California. I came close to moving to Canada about 35 years ago.

I came close to moving to Canada about 35 years ago.
+1. Sometimes I wish I would have. I should like to see the Canadian Rockies and
West Coast.

Do you support more and more people just breaking our laws, not paying income taxes, and using the infrastructure of the American economy?


Being a statistician, I've looked at some of the studies on illegal aliens. While there are a number of claims by the anti-immigration groups, most of those cite dubious statistics. Of the studies that I've seen which appear to be more credible, the statistics indicate that A) Illegal aliens commit fewer crimes than does the general US public (once you remove all arrests due to their illegal status), and B) they pay more in taxes than what they receive in benefits - by a rather wide margin. And this grows extremely large when one factors in the labor savings by US businesses which use immigrant labor.

The whole topic is a fascinating one on which to study the numbers.

Another fun number is to try to calculate the cost of deporting all of the illegal aliens. The cost would be incredibly high. For example, if the government purchased 1000 buses and then rounded up all of the illegal aliens into detention centers, and if each bus could take 40 people plus some possesions, then each bus would need to make 300 trips to take everyone back. That would take about 2 years to pull off and in the meantime, the cost to feed and house millions of people would be astronomical, if you could even find the facilities to hold them in. For if you emptied the entire state of Utah and used every house & building in the state, it wouldn't be enough to house them.

I've been to Canada four times and Mexico once, although all four times barely crossed the border. I parked my car in Del Rio, Texas and walked into Mexico, staying for about 6 hours. My trips to Canada were to Vancouver for a day, Victoria for 6 hours, the Canadian side of Niagara Falls for 3 hours, and three days in Montreal.

Would love to spend a couple of weeks in Canada. And maybe spent a January at a warm Mexican beach.

A couple of countries I visited (not biked) where I found locals (outside of the tourist/hotel industry) to be outstanding and truly friendly: Ireland and Greece.
As Jet Travis said a little effort to blend and not act as a spoiled bratty dollar loaded tourist makes a heck of a difference any place you go... even in France.


I Did not mention the Americans- but there is a feeling that All americans are Loud- Obese and Loaded here in the UK. I know it isn't wholly true as it is only those from San Diego that are like that- but it is a stypo- typical impression that the English have of Americans.

Now if you want predudice- Look at any nation. I had severe problems with one person I had to deal with in France for years. I spoke French with a Flandres accent- and this person thought I was Belgian. He gave me a lot of grief- until someone told him I was English. He had nothing against me- but as he Thought I was belgian- he just did not make anything easy for me.

A) Illegal aliens commit fewer crimes than does the general US public (once you remove all arrests due to their illegal status), I'm not saying most are not law abiding. They obviously are and they want a better life for themselves. All qualities to be admired. But they could possiblly be more "law abiding" to stay off the radar scope.

B) they pay more in taxes than what they receive in benefits - by a rather wide margin. And this grows extremely large when one factors in the labor savings by US businesses which use immigrant labor. Who among us does not? And please, tell me which tax they pay other than sales tax. They sure don't pay income tax or property taxes, which is by far the bulk of the tax burden. And they don't pay sales tax on larger ticket items...because they don't buy them. This is no rationale for people to break our laws.

The whole topic is a fascinating one on which to study the numbers.

Another fun number is to try to calculate the cost of deporting all of the illegal aliens. The cost would be incredibly high. For example, if the government purchased 1000 buses and then rounded up all of the illegal aliens into detention centers, and if each bus could take 40 people plus some possesions, then each bus would need to make 300 trips to take everyone back. That would take about 2 years to pull off and in the meantime, the cost to feed and house millions of people would be astronomical, if you could even find the facilities to hold them in. For if you emptied the entire state of Utah and used every house & building in the state, it wouldn't be enough to house them. You can't put a price on illegality or lawlessness, which is what this is. The logic for this is akin to calculating the cost of, say, fighting World War II. If you're more worried about your money than about the stability of your country, there is a problem. How about put them in tents in the Arizona desert and feed them balogna sandwiches and see how long it takes for them to want to go home? That would certainly cut down on the cost. Forget the buses, make them walk back across.

Illegal is illegal. Try to live in Mexico illegally and see what happens.

As a southern Californian living less than 50 miles north of the border, I have to concur. Easterners and midwesterners simply do not understand the magnitude of the problem and the sheer numbers of people involved in this "quiet invasion." Of course, Mexico has precisely the same problem we do, with invasion across its southern borders. The problem will continue until the Mexican government gets a handle on the corruption of its politicians and police force; dropping Napoleonic law in favor of English common law, and a rising activist middle class, won't hurt, either.

+1 on this. Mexico has been blessed with some of the greatest natural resources on the planet, plus two oceans for trade. What a shame.

I ran an international electric power development company for several years and traveled extensively plus vacations. Velodiva and I biked in Mexico and Italy and both were great experiences. Here is a list of countries and some representative cities. Everyone is so unique it is very hard to pick favorites.

Business
England - had an office in London and sort of spoke the language
Netherlands - Amsterdam one of my favorite cities
Finland - Helsinki numerous times and cross country skied in Lapland north of the arctic circle
France - Strasbourg
Switzerland - Zurich
Japan - Tokyo
Hong Kong - had and office pre and post British rule
Thailand - Bankok and played a lot of golf at the Thai country club
Indonesia - Jakarta
Taiwan
Vietnam - Hanoi and Ho Chin Minh
Bangladesh - Dhaka and Khulna
Pakistan - Karachi
Macao
Sinapore
Brazil - RIo and Sao Paulo
Columbia
Ecuador - La Paz, Cochabambua and Santa Cruz and appeared on national television to sign a contract
Panama
Costa Rica
Honduras
Mexico
Jamaica

Vacation
Canada
Mexico - Cabo and others too numerous to count
France - Paris, Nice, Cannes, San Tropes and St Paul de Vance and dined at Moulin de Mougin
Spain - Madrid
Corsica
Denmark
Monaco - drove the high road from Nice to Monaco and gambled at the casino
Italy - Rome, Venice, Capri, Sicily, Amalphi Coast, Chianti and Elba
Germany - Frankfort
Czech Republic - Prague
Belgium
Scotland
Wales - met Velodiva's pen pal of 40 years
Tahiti

From the SF Bay area I've only been to 2 foreign countries:
Florence, Italy
New York, New York

I liked them both a ton. Florence had more bikes and great art. The people were also easier to understand. But New York was way way cool too.
I'd highly recommend both.

Ukraine -- most hate Communism and almost all hated the old Soviet Union. They want to be like the warmongering Americans, or at least have some of their money. They also think Hillary Clinton is a crook, no matter what they think of her politics.

Romania -- they hate totalitarianism with a passion, and would shoot Ceausescu again if he were to return from the dead. They absolutely love Americans. One church I visited over there sent us $127 after 911, which probably collectively represented a week's wage of the whole congregation.

Why you libs want to adopt some of the policies of these countries prior to 1989 is beyond me.

Immigration has been a plus for this nation since its inception, and it remains a tremendous benefit. The immigrants, legal or otherwise, help our economy and benefit our nation in many ways. I vividly remember my grandmother telling me about growing up speaking German in Iowa and how she and her family assimilated into the U.S. Now, the hispanics cause passing, local problems in some locations, but generally are a tremendous plus for us. The xenophobia promoted by the media and some politicians disgusts me.

There is no use in discussing options that we all know will never happen. Like catching 12M illegal aliens, making them live in tents, eating bologna sandwiches, as they all walk back to Mexico. Odds are that there will never be a big roundup of illegal aliens and that the illegal alien population in the USA will continue to increase. If I were a betting man, that's what I would bet on.

As to the total economic impact, there are a lot of confusing numbers bandied about. It is easy to find the negative stories, less so the ones that paint a more neutral or positive picture.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900
http://www.auditor.leg.state.mn.us/PED/2006/ecoimpactsum.htm
http://www.newsweek.com/id/72735

It is certainly hard to get a handle on it. Which is a bit surprising to me, given the magnitude of the situation. I would expect a lot more in the way of official, well-funded studies than what I've seen.

Visited in the south part of England. The people were absolutely great, although I could hardly understand a word they said. The sites were beautiful. We got to see a bit of London. The food, except for some fish and chips in downtown London, was absolutely horrid:eek:. Have been to Canada a few times. It's pretty nice, and you can get Cuban cigars there. Spent a week in Honduras on a mission trip. The people there were very friendly and hard working. We were in the mountains building a medical clinic. The countryside was outstanding. Oh, and you can get Cuban cigars there, as well. Other foreign countries I've visited... Wisconsin.

As to illegal aliens and amnesty, I'm strongly against each, and I'll hold my tongue.

Why you libs want to adopt some of the policies of these countries prior to 1989 is beyond me.

Who are these "libs" and what are these outdated Ukrainian and Romanian policies they want to adopt?

Romania -- they hate totalitarianism with a passion, and would shoot Ceausescu again if he were to return from the dead. They absolutely love Americans. One church I visited over there sent us $127 after 911, which probably collectively represented a week's wage of the whole congregation.

From an interview of Romanian chess historian Olimpiu Urcan, published at Chessville and in the magazine of the Chess Journalists of America:

"One of the leading American chess historians isn’t an American; in fact, he isn’t even in the Western hemisphere. And his own life is as interesting as those of his chess history writing. Olimpiu G. Urcan was born in Romania in 1977. As a twelve year old he witnessed the overthrow of Ceausescu; in an essay he described the immediate reaction to the capture of the dictator and overthrow of the Communist state. Looking out his window, “at first I thought there were about a thousand white pigeons but soon enough I realized that from my tenth-floor block, all the Communist propaganda books, brochures, magazines, and journals were being thrown up in the sky…” Freedom was literally in the air....

Q. What prompts you to choose Americans and American subjects?

A. As for what drew me to Americans, I believe it has always happened. The United States possesses an immense and incredibly diversified culture, derived from some of the most significant historical experiences of the 19th and 20th century. I am mostly preoccupied on how these unsung heroes, as those I wrote about, entered in contact with this culture, at various local levels, and experienced their stories of success or failure, and not only in chess.

I Did not mention the Americans- but there is a feeling that All americans are Loud- Obese and Loaded here in the UK. I know it isn't wholly true as it is only those from San Diego that are like that- but it is a stypo- typical impression that the English have of Americans.


I had to stop reading Josie Dew's book Travels in a Strange State because she pushed that stereotype. I felt like I was reading Dickens' American Notes in a Eurotrash translation.

Immigration has been a plus for this nation since its inception, and it remains a tremendous benefit. The immigrants, legal or otherwise, help our economy and benefit our nation in many ways. I vividly remember my grandmother telling me about growing up speaking German in Iowa and how she and her family assimilated into the U.S. Now, the hispanics cause passing, local problems in some locations, but generally are a tremendous plus for us. The xenophobia promoted by the media and some politicians disgusts me.


Your points on assimilation are very well taken. The only problem....the illegal immigrants ARE NOT assimilating. Rather, we are made to feel guilty if we don't celebrate Cinco de Mayo, signs and advertisements are now in Spanish AND English, and you have to press 1 to hear instructions in what has always been our native language.

Some of my folks were Irish (came over to Boston - 1880's era) , and they assimilated because they dropped the O' from the front of their name and my great grandmother would thump their red head if they didn't learn to speak English without a brouge. And, those folks came into the country "with papers" as it were, and wanted to be part of the American dream. They didn't break the law. We're on a different program these days. Very few are trying to assimilate, but rather want to be catered to in their own language.

If you think its a passing, local problem, then you need to try and order a cheeseburger in the Rio Grande Valley. The RGV, by the way, is one of the fastest growing MSA's in the nation. Still think its a passing problem?

A common language is what binds a country together. A celebration of multi and differentiated ethnicity tears it apart. Look at Canada, which has already had one election to separate. Consider the problems in Ireland, former Yugoslavia, breakup of the USSR, etc.

I'm telling you, this isn't a passing problem.

I have no problem adding another language. And I believe amnesty will help the assimilation issue. It's not a majority up here, but I interact with spanish speaking hispanics every day and they are mostly wonderful. It's the people that look like me who mostly act like jerks, taking responsibility for nothing and looking for every opportunity to grab everything.

I'll duck back under now.

Being a statistician, I've looked at some of the studies on illegal aliens. While there are a number of claims by the anti-immigration groups, most of those cite dubious statistics. Of the studies that I've seen which appear to be more credible, the statistics indicate that A) Illegal aliens commit fewer crimes than does the general US public (once you remove all arrests due to their illegal status), and B) they pay more in taxes than what they receive in benefits - by a rather wide margin. And this grows extremely large when one factors in the labor savings by US businesses which use immigrant labor.

The whole topic is a fascinating one on which to study the numbers.

Another fun number is to try to calculate the cost of deporting all of the illegal aliens. The cost would be incredibly high. For example, if the government purchased 1000 buses and then rounded up all of the illegal aliens into detention centers, and if each bus could take 40 people plus some possesions, then each bus would need to make 300 trips to take everyone back. That would take about 2 years to pull off and in the meantime, the cost to feed and house millions of people would be astronomical, if you could even find the facilities to hold them in. For if you emptied the entire state of Utah and used every house & building in the state, it wouldn't be enough to house them.

Try going to an emergency room in this part of the country. It is full of illegal aliens seeking medical attention. Most are there for minor ailments, some serious and of course no medical insurance. Hospitals pass along some of this expense to those that are able to pay and that they are able to collect from. Still many hospitals are faced with closing emergency rooms or bankruptcy because they are unable to collect for services. I can't see how illegals are on the positive side of taxes when most don't pay income tax or property tax. Illegal aliens who take low-paying jobs don't pay enough in taxes, if they pay at all, to reimburse taxpayers the $5,000-plus annually it takes to educate each of their children. It is estimated that 11% of the state inmates are illegal aliens. We spend about $43,000 per inmate per year to house them. Car insurance rates are higher because of the impact of uninsured illegal aliens. Most of the people who come here illegally are good decent folks that want to earn a living. They do break our laws though when they come here illegally. That's not a good way to start a relationship. Employers benefit by having cheap labor and not having to pay taxes and benefits for those workers. The true cost of that cheap labor is paid by the taxpayers. And that cost is mostly paid by the taxpayers in a few states, with California leading the pack.

I think that it is really funny for somebody on the West Coast of the USA that NYC, NY is a foreign country. It's a little ironic. What is so funny to me is here I'm a transplant from Germany and I seem to know more about this country than regular citizens do.

You had to study to become an American. Most of us didn't. :-)

[QUOTE=pprayers;5772451]What is so funny to me is here I'm a transplant from Germany and I seem to know more about this country than regular citizens do. Somebody showed me a pic from a satellite showing all of the lighted cities across the country and they were amazed at how many cities I knew just by looking at their position on the picture.
QUOTE]

My wife is from Russia, and her knowledge of American literature, geography and and history is generally significantly better than that of the US-born university students that she teaches (Russian language). She speaks several languages herself, including flawless English. As with you, I would say she "seems to know more about this country than regular citizens do." Most of what she knows of American culture and literature she learned in high school while in Russia.

A few more statistics:

30 million people in the USA can speak Spanish. This makes the USA the 5th largest Spanish-speaking nation in the world This could be as high as 40 million when one includes all illegal aliens.

Roughly only 50% of all 2nd-generation Hispanic Americans can speak Spanish.

6 other languages are spoken by over 1 million US citizens, with Chinese at 2M being the highest. Another 8 languages are spoken by between 500,000 to 1M people.

English is the primary language of 82% of US citizens, this drops a bit, to around 78% when illegal aliens are included.

Approximately 20 million people in the USA cannot speak English fluently.

All of the non-English numbers are growing and are likely to continue to grow.

The California Department of Motor Vehicles publishes documents in 47 languages.

The legally recognized languages of the state of Louisiana are English and French.

The true cost of that cheap labor is paid by the taxpayers. And that cost is mostly paid by the taxpayers in a few states, with California leading the pack.

Actually, all of these costs are taken into account in the national studies.

One of the ironies in the health care costs is that it is because we deem them illegals that they cannot get jobs that provide health insurance. Therefore we force them into the emergency rooms without insurance as a matter of policy. It is either that or their sick and injured children would go untreated.

The counter to the health care costs is that many US businesses are saving money on health insurance because of hiring illegals and these profits are also passed into the economy, just like the heath care costs are.

A lot of large-scale economic models are in play here ... involving multiple countries.

What I find amazing is how much money some of these illegal aliens are able to save, given their low wages. They are much more disciplined in their spending and savings habits than most Americans.

You should duck. In Mexico several weeks ago and not much has changed since we were there in 1976. the poor are many, rich are few and a $1.98 tube of Neosporin costs $25! Military road blocks to search for drugs a thousand miles from the US border but drugs flow like water to the US. The place is a trainwreck as far as I am concerned.

First - political science is an oxymoron. I don't care how many statistics and methodology classes they make you take - it mostly comes down to opinions supported by selected "facts." I learned that in methodology classes in graduate school. :rolleyes:
Second - been in 36 countries and counting (including living in three foreign countries for two years each)
Third - almost everywhere I have ever traveled or lived the people have been friendly - especially if you are friendly to them.
Fourth - Mexico is a lovely mess - and not likely to be straightened out in the near term.
Fifth - well I guess that is enough for now.

Actually, all of these costs are taken into account in the national studies.

One of the ironies in the health care costs is that it is because we deem them illegals that they cannot get jobs that provide health insurance. Therefore we force them into the emergency rooms without insurance as a matter of policy. It is either that or their sick and injured children would go untreated.

The counter to the health care costs is that many US businesses are saving money on health insurance because of hiring illegals and these profits are also passed into the economy, just like the heath care costs are.

A lot of large-scale economic models are in play here ... involving multiple countries.

What I find amazing is how much money some of these illegal aliens are able to save, given their low wages. They are much more disciplined in their spending and savings habits than most Americans.

I would appreciate an opportunity to look at some of these national studies and statistics that are being bantered around here. Do you have any internet links to publications that you would care to share?

I'm not a very political person, but I spent a couple months each year in central Mexico when I was growing up, and later lived in a border town doing social work where I pretty much spoke spanish instead of english. My ex was a border patrol agent in the 80's. I guess I'm just giving you background so I don't get accused of being a Minnesotan far away from the impact of the situation:

Whenever I listen to debates about this South American/Mexican immigration issue, after a while it basically boils down to an argument that there's so MANY of them that they're going to change everything. I don't glamorize the Mexican culture, which I find way too sexist for my taste, and I don't argue that they could change our status quo via many different venues. But, (ducks) what's the big deal about that?

We are* a democracy, and majority wins. We're a capitalistic society, so if there's suddenly bad spanish soap operas and game shows on during prime time... so be it. Even if we're totally repopulated in 100 years with spanish-speaking people and we become a spanish speaking nation, so what? Nations that don't adapt don't thrive.

I think there's also the very simple instinct to keep control if you have it. It's a little scary to turn over the keys to the car. But that's why it's great to live in a democracy! Everyone gets a vote, and the power theoretically continues to redistribute with the values of the society.

Personally, I think the US is like an overbred dog breed. We need a little hybrid vigor.

@Solveg -- why is it that when you are in America and someone gives you change you don't count it because you're sure they wouldn't cheat you but when you are in Mexico you always count your change because you know they're likely to?

Within the answer lies most people's resistance to illegal immigration, methinks.

I count my change here (haven't been there) because I can't be sure that the person operating the cash register can do simple math well enough to make correct change.

Everyone gets a vote, and the power theoretically continues to redistribute with the values of the society.



According to our Constitution only citizens get to vote. We like all countries have laws regarding immigration. In the past immgration (legal) was much more open in the U.S. Back then though, immigrants or for that matter nobody had the expensive public benefits that are available today. If you didn't work, you starved, if you didn't have money for medical services, you didn't get them or you got very minimal. There were private charities that provided assistance to those that they thought were truly in need. Those folks that received that assistance ususally felt obligated to get on their own as soon as possible and often paid back what they received. Now government is the "caretaker" and tax dollars are used. Many people don't seem to mind taking money from the government for as long as possible and it's virutally unheard of for people to pay the government back when they get on their feet. Now these are considered "entitlements".

I count my change here (haven't been there) because I can't be sure that the person operating the cash register can do simple math well enough to make correct change.

Yah, I was going to insert a "you count your change here if the kid is a public school graduate" but I've folded up my asbestos undies and put them away already.

Yah, I was going to insert a "you count your change here if the kid is a public school graduate" but I've folded up my asbestos undies and put them away already.

It may be different where you live, but around here, our public schools produce scholars as well as illiterates - just like the segregationist academies.

When I first read the title of this thread, I had hoped it would be a discussion of the different challenges one faces when going from one country to another. You know, passport issues, transportation differences, How easy or hard it is to get your bike shipped to another place. (This was something I was interested in for thinking about future travels around this magnificant planet). I didn't know it was going to be about bigotry. Oh, well live and learn. Could it be that our OP was trolling? If so, I guess I've been caught too.

When I first read the title of this thread, I had hoped it would be a discussion of the different challenges one faces when going from one country to another. You know, passport issues, transportation differences, How easy or hard it is to get your bike shipped to another place. (This was something I was interested in for thinking about future travels around this magnificant planet). I didn't know it was going to be about bigotry. Oh, well live and learn. Could it be that our OP was trolling? If so, I guess I've been caught too.

I thought this as well and that is why I posted the extensive list.

Yah, I was going to insert a "you count your change here if the kid is a public school graduate" but I've folded up my asbestos undies and put them away already.

Maybe you ought to put them back on. Much as I love ya, man, you're starting to sound like a flaming troll.

OK..........I've been hooked...........and I tried hard.

This nation was/is made of immigrants. In fact I'd bet that we have more immigrants than anyone else. We are proud of it. Our country is what it is today because of it! There are hundreds of locations around the country that immigration is on display. We are not an overbred dog, in fact we haven't even finished deciding what sort of dog we are.

So when does it become bigotry to point out that some are here without bothering to do it right. Whats wrong with saying....go home...do it right...and be welcome here like everyone else.

Or perhaps is big bad American bashing another more popular form of bigotry.

Maybe you ought to put them back on. Much as I love ya, man, you're starting to sound like a flaming troll.

Naah. Just a snark. My kid goes to a public school. A bilingual school at that. A ESL school even at that. And there are a bunch of foreigners in her class. They all speak English better than my daughter, even though Anya has learned how to say "Just relax!" and "Whatchadoin'" like a native. And we have no complaints about her school whatsoever. If the conservatives overrun this thread I'll start posting like a flaming lib.

Someone posted that one's opinion about illegal immigration is influenced by where they live. Here in Kentucky we note that they are incredibly hard workers. If Home Depot wants their business by having bilingual signage it's cool with me.

However, as someone who spent a blue fortune on LEGAL immigration and played by the rules, I sometimes wonder why I didn't just smuggle my daughter into Mexico and then into the States. Would have saved me a bunch of green.

However, as someone who spent a blue fortune on LEGAL immigration and played by the rules, I sometimes wonder why I didn't just smuggle my daughter into Mexico and then into the States. Would have saved me a bunch of green.

I'm thinking that the rules for immigration from Mexico are way too tight. There's obviously a huge market for Mexican workers or they wouldn't be able to find jobs and they'd stop coming. It looks similar to me to the prohibition era and nationwide 55 MPH speed limits. When the laws are too strict, government completely loses control and they can't regulate the situation.

I respect you for all sorts of reasons--including adopting a child from the Ukraine. My wife is a legal immigrant, so we also went through the whole, expensive, exasperating rigamarole. So, I really do appreciate your opinion on illegal immigrants. It was that comment about counting your change that bugged me. It struck me that an entire nation was being reduced to a simplistic negative stereotype. OK, I'm done *****in'.