Training & Nutrition - How helpful is maltodextrin and protein after ANY workouts?

Well, implying that workouts usually mean greater than thirty minutes. How necessary would this combo be?

so are you asking if meat and potatoes is good after a ride ?


ummmmm, DUH !

It helps. Mostly it is of interest if you are training long, hard and often.

http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200205/200205_notch.html

After a 30 minute workout you could get away with a glass of orange juice ... you don't need much because you'll have burned only about 250-300 calories.

When your workouts/rides get to be up around 2-3 hours or more, then you might want to eat something more after ... like edzo suggests, meat and potatoes will do it ... any 4:1 carb/protein combo will work. I like things like chicken sandwiches ... or a slice of pizza ... or a square of lasagne ...

After a 30 minute workout you could get away with a glass of orange juice ... you don't need much because you'll have burned only about 250-300 calories.

When your workouts/rides get to be up around 2-3 hours or more, then you might want to eat something more after ... like edzo suggests, meat and potatoes will do it ... any 4:1 carb/protein combo will work. I like things like chicken sandwiches ... or a slice of pizza ... or a square of lasagne ...


Heh, and here I just bought a small tub of cytomax a few hours ago just for the carbs. I thought I would maybe have half a tablespoon along with protein powder only after workouts, but if I do end up riding a few hours on each Saturday, then perhaps that would be the best time to drink it.
Oh, is there some sort of guideline, so to speak, of how many grams of carbs should be taken after workout per calories burned?

Heh, and here I just bought a small tub of cytomax a few hours ago just for the carbs. I thought I would maybe have half a tablespoon along with protein powder only after workouts, but if I do end up riding a few hours on each Saturday, then perhaps that would be the best time to drink it.
Oh, is there some sort of guideline, so to speak, of how many grams of carbs should be taken after workout per calories burned?

Well, carbs have 4 calories per gram, and protein has 4 calories per gram (and fat, incidentally, has 9 calories per gram). If your goal is to lose weight, then put together a 4:1 carb to protein meal (or snack) with fewer calories than you have burned ... or (depending on the length of the ride) eat what you've burned and eat less at a later meal.

BTW - if you want carbs after a ride, why not eat a bagal, or a sandwich with whole wheat bread, or something decent? I cannot imagine even wanting to look at Cytomax after my rides ... I'm sick to death of energy drinks by about halfway through my rides, they are the last things I want after. In fact, most energy drinks leave a horrible taste in my mouth and my teeth feel fuzzy ... blech. After my rides I drink real fruit juice (100% pure) ... and I eat real food. So much nicer and tastier ... and healthy too!

2% chocolate milk right after the work out is the shiznit. No "cheap" substitutes for me. :p

2% chocolate milk right after the work out is the shiznit. No "cheap" substitutes for me. :p

I personally believe pasteurized dairy milk to be a joke and very unhealthy. But now oat milk-yummy.

I personally believe pasteurized dairy milk to be a joke and very unhealthy.And yet you believe the marketing hype that sez you need protein supplements. Unless you are a vegan, a professional bodybuilder or an Olympic level athlete, protein deficiency is a relative non-issue for most Americans.

Talk to a nutritionist about this. If it were cheap and silly I wouldn't even bother posting about it, but I've seen the prices on those bottles. Get your protein from food, and in the proper amounts, glasshopper. Hard work builds muscle, not excess protein.

And yet you believe the marketing hype that sez you need protein supplements. Unless you are a vegan, a professional bodybuilder or an Olympic level athlete, protein deficiency is a relative non-issue for most Americans.

Talk to a nutritionist about this. If it were cheap and silly I wouldn't even bother posting about it, but I've seen the prices on those bottles. Get your protein from food, and in the proper amounts, glasshopper. Hard work builds muscle, not excess protein.

Dur, that's gerber talk.

Dur, that's gerber talk.No, just a guy who is skeptical of marketing hype and just got an "A" in his nutrition class. You're welcome.

Dur, that's gerber talk.

Gerber talk??? What KrisP says is true. I really think you should sit down and talk to a nutritionist. From what you've mentioned in previous threads, you're not exercising enough to need a bunch of powders and things. Like I mentioned above, after a 30 minute ride, all you need is a glass of orange juice ... or the chocolate milk if you aren't lactose intolerant ... or maybe fruit juice (for carbs, hydration, and some vitamins) and a banana for a few extra carbs and potassium ... just something simple like that.

Have a look over this site for real foods which contain the things (carbs, protein, vitamins, minerals, etc.) you're looking for:
http://www.nutritiondata.com/

My fav after a long ride is a huge (0.75 L / 25 fl oz) mug of hot chocolate.

63 g carbs (~65 % of total energy), 25 g protein (~26 % of total energy), 4 g fat (~9 % of total energy) for a total of ~390 kcal, and about 0.65 L (22 fl oz) of water.

Gerber talk??? What KrisP says is true. I really think you should sit down and talk to a nutritionist. From what you've mentioned in previous threads, you're not exercising enough to need a bunch of powders and things. Like I mentioned above, after a 30 minute ride, all you need is a glass of orange juice ... or the chocolate milk if you aren't lactose intolerant ... or maybe fruit juice (for carbs, hydration, and some vitamins) and a banana for a few extra carbs and potassium ... just something simple like that.

Have a look over this site for real foods which contain the things (carbs, protein, vitamins, minerals, etc.) you're looking for:
http://www.nutritiondata.com/

By gerber I implied that I already know that information, while being basic in nature. I'm not making up shakes with anything over 20grams of protein, and the only meat I eat is either from sushi rolls a few times a week and maybe 8oz chicken once a week. So after a workout and after evaluating how many calories I burned, the best thing to do (for weight loss) is to use the 4:1 ratio to determine how many grams I need, regarding 4 calories per gram of each, to make up the 400 calories? Or do I make the total slightly less?

Well if you're trying to lose weight you should know the total Cals that you are aiming for and adjust your intake accordingly. Why would you make up the 400Cal if you're trying to lose weight?

There is a roughly 30 minute window post workout where your body is abnormally receptive to nutrients... it's important to take advantage of this for recovery purposes. Whey protein and maltodextrin are good choices here for several reasons. They're digested much quicker than normal food in addition to being low in fat.

You don't need a lot of either - maybe 20-25 grams of protein and 50 grams of carbs. For a workout less than an hour I probably wouldn't bother though.

Well if you're trying to lose weight you should know the total Cals that you are aiming for and adjust your intake accordingly. Why would you make up the 400Cal if you're trying to lose weight?

Yes, but if I need (making this up) 3,000 calories to maintain my weight, and I eat 2,500 calories for the day, while exercising 500 calories off, shouldn't I regain that 500 calories to bring my intake back to 2500? I could just eat 500 less calories, rather than use exercise as a tool, but that would probably result in more muscle mass loss.

Yes, but if I need (making this up) 3,000 calories to maintain my weight, and I eat 2,500 calories for the day, while exercising 500 calories off, shouldn't I regain that 500 calories to bring my intake back to 2500? I could just eat 500 less calories, rather than use exercise as a tool, but that would probably result in more muscle mass loss.

Just a couple things to keep in mind ... if your goal is to lose weight, don't forget to put your target weight into the calculators when calculating what you need to maintain your weight, not your current weight. And if the difference between what you consume and what you burn is more than 500 calories one day, that's OK. The goal is to aim to lose 1-2 lbs a week. One pound a week is a deficit of 500 calories a day to total a weekly deficit of 3500 calories. Two pounds a week is a deficit of 1000 calories per day to total a weekly deficit of 7000 calories. So if you mostly aim for a deficit of 500 calories per day, but one day you have a deficit of 700 calories, that's OK.

http://www.mypyramid.gov/

Despite a few misgivings about the way they make their calculations (example; they assume a relatively large amount of sodium for each menu item, in my opinion,) this is overall a very helpful site. Poke around here for a bit.

Well, carbs have 4 calories per gram, and protein has 4 calories per gram (and fat, incidentally, has 9 calories per gram). If your goal is to lose weight, then put together a 4:1 carb to protein meal (or snack) with fewer calories than you have burned ... or (depending on the length of the ride) eat what you've burned and eat less at a later meal.

BTW - if you want carbs after a ride, why not eat a bagal, or a sandwich with whole wheat bread, or something decent? I cannot imagine even wanting to look at Cytomax after my rides ... I'm sick to death of energy drinks by about halfway through my rides, they are the last things I want after. In fact, most energy drinks leave a horrible taste in my mouth and my teeth feel fuzzy ... blech. After my rides I drink real fruit juice (100% pure) ... and I eat real food. So much nicer and tastier ... and healthy too!

Most of the time just Dakota Wheat bread from Great Harvest Bread Co for me after a workout. Tastes great and has a 5:1 carb to protein ratio which is good enough for me since I'm not a stickler about that sort of thing.

Yes, but if I need (making this up) 3,000 calories to maintain my weight, and I eat 2,500 calories for the day, while exercising 500 calories off, shouldn't I regain that 500 calories to bring my intake back to 2500? I could just eat 500 less calories, rather than use exercise as a tool, but that would probably result in more muscle mass loss.

If you doing some sort of resistance exercise and keeping your protein intake normal, I don't think you need to worry about muscle mass loss. If you are worried, make sure you are weighing and body fat % pinching. Personally, I use my weightlifting to tell me if my muscles are getting weaker. When I am cutting (like now), I don't always make up the Calories because I tend to get to a point in the week where I feel hungrier than usual and do a refeed, which is basically eating at maintenance Calories. I'm not concerned about the numbers because I've eaten at my lower intake and exercised so I have some room to spare. If you are always hungry everyday, then I would include the extra Cals.

I personally believe pasteurized dairy milk to be a joke and very unhealthy. But now oat milk-yummy.

Oh, you are one of those people.

Oh, you are one of those people.

Conscious of what "we" consume, then corrent.

You barely eat any meat, you don't drink milk, you'd rather use powders for your protein and you'd rather drink Cytomax than eat your carbs, you get all your vitamins and minerals from pills ... I'm curious ... what real foods do you eat?

You barely eat any meat, you don't drink milk, you'd rather use powders for your protein and you'd rather drink Cytomax than eat your carbs, you get all your vitamins and minerals from pills ... I'm curious ... what real foods do you eat?

Smoothies are magnificant. My typical blend comprises of 2 cups spinach (and if I have arugula, 1 cup that), 10: blueberries, rasberries, and (5) strawberries, with 1 tea spoon cod liver oil, flax oil, rice milk, 1 tbs NOW wheat grass powder, 1 or 2 bananas, and aloe vera juice, and 20g whey/casein protein powder. The flax oil has cinnamon in it, so the smoothie tastes very good. I'm fond of sushi after school, and my typical lunch consists of: late july organic crackers, raisens, 1 apple, 1 banana, trail mix, and for breakfast a cliff builder bar and/or those crackers. I need to refocus on breakfast though, but when I eat that around 6:10 on my way to school, I will eat my lunch spread out through the day during an 8:45a free, 11:30 lunch, and a 2:30 free, followed by a smoothie after I get home around 5. I may lack certain things here or there, but I'm not sure.

I may lack certain things here or there, but I'm not sure.You could start eating toilet paper to get more fiber.
http://www.gerber.com/home

EJ123 ... I knew it. You're not eating a real, balanced diet at all. You might as well be eating baby food with that diet. <<shudder>>

Have you ever consulted some sort of food pyramid? Here's Canada's:
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/food-guide-aliment/index_e.html

Have you had a chat with a nutritionist? I really think you could benefit from it!!

It's good you're getting some fruit, but what about your veggies? What about broccoli, carrots, beans, tomatoes, potatoes? What about your grains? What about your dairy?

And what exactly are: "late july organic crackers"?

EJ123 ... I knew it. You're not eating a real, balanced diet at all. You might as well be eating baby food with that diet. <<shudder>>

Have you ever consulted some sort of food pyramid? Here's Canada's:
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/food-guide-aliment/index_e.html

Have you had a chat with a nutritionist? I really think you could benefit from it!!

It's good you're getting some fruit, but what about your veggies? What about broccoli, carrots, beans, tomatoes, potatoes? What about your grains? What about your dairy?

And what exactly are: "late july organic crackers"?

The best crackers ever. http://www.shopnatural.com/product/19041.jpg

I thought this was about what to eat after workouts, and suddenly this has become an uprise of questions. Anyways, I eat steamed broccoli usually if I go out to eat, carrots, yuck, I get enough vit. a, beans-well I did have pinto a few nights ago, tomatoes I had 2 nights ago on a panini, and potatoes..I don't even know why potatoes are that great other than it being one big blob of starch, and I don't think I need much of that now. Dairy is a joke, unless I'm getting unpasteurized milk or kefir. I guess I could use more fiber and decent grains. I bought oat groats, rolled oats, and quinoa a few weeks ago that I wanted to use. Perhaps I'll cook it tomorrow and top it off with some agave nectar. Sounds tasty.

This is an interesting food guide also: http://www.honestfoodguide.org/downloads/21407.0_HonestFoodGuide.pdf

You could start eating toilet paper to get more fiber.
http://www.gerber.com/home

"However, official guidelines advise about 20-25g of fiber per day, for both men and women."

I just added up a typical amount of fiber for my typical diet. I used: 2 bananas, 1 apple, 2 tbs peanuts, 1 cup strawberries, 2 cups raw spinach, and the grand total of just that was 26g. Should I still eat TP?

First of all, to the "meat and potatoes" people. Look it up. Steak contains about 85g protein per pound. I don't buy meat, but USDA says it's running about $4.25 per pound right now. So, 454g/lb. I calculate almost $23/lb. for pure protein derived from steak. The whey protein I purchase is currently $8.40/lb. It's 80% pure protein, so that's $10.50/lb for pure protein derived from whey protein. Half the cost.

Additionally, with your $4.25/lb steak, you get bovine growth hormone, GMO feed, and any number of antibiotics, plus a disgusting amount of saturated fat. Saturated fat in whey protein? 0%. Now, if you only purchase organic, grass fed beef, or only purchase organic free range chicken, you'll do a lot better health-wise, but even worse cost-wise.

As for the potatoes, a 7 oz. average potato contains only 50g of carbohydrate, only about 6g more than a Clif bar. And most people just don't eat them plain. They add butter and sour cream until there are more calories there derived from fat than from carbohydrate.

That said, a good natural foods diet, based on organic vegetables and grains, possibly supplemented with organic lean meats, is just the thing for an athlete. But if you're going on a 3 hour or so leg-burning ride, having a recovery drink of 200 cal. maltodextrin and 100 calories protein waiting for you in the car, to be drunk immediately, is a very good thing. But at that point, I have about a 1500 calorie deficit, so no problem.

As for the ratio of carb to protein in a recovery drink or meal, I don't know of a single study that's been done on that subject that was based on science, rather than marketing hype. So do what feels good, and base your recovery drink contents on the additional foods you plan on eating that day.

As for the smoothie - naw, just eat real food. Unless you have a sensory problem with it and really need to eat green liquid nummies, evidently not the case. Learn to cook. Leave the weird stuff and eat like a monkey. They eat a wonderfully varied diet. And I think they'd cook their veggies if they could.

As for the pyramid - I have it on good authority that the federal government's food pyramid is based, not on science, but rather on the demands of corporate agriculture. Note the huge slice devoted to dairy. Dairy is a bigger part of the pyramid than either fruits or vegetables? Gimme a break! Think primitive. Run down your deer with a knife in your teeth.

First of all, to the "meat and potatoes" people. Look it up. Steak contains about 85g protein per pound. I don't buy meat, but USDA says it's running about $4.25 per pound right now. So, 454g/lb. I calculate almost $23/lb. for pure protein derived from steak. The whey protein I purchase is currently $8.40/lb. It's 80% pure protein, so that's $10.50/lb for pure protein derived from whey protein. Half the cost.

Additionally, with your $4.25/lb steak, you get bovine growth hormone, GMO feed, and any number of antibiotics, plus a disgusting amount of saturated fat. Saturated fat in whey protein? 0%. Now, if you only purchase organic, grass fed beef, or only purchase organic free range chicken, you'll do a lot better health-wise, but even worse cost-wise.

As for the potatoes, a 7 oz. average potato contains only 50g of carbohydrate, only about 6g more than a Clif bar. And most people just don't eat them plain. They add butter and sour cream until there are more calories there derived from fat than from carbohydrate.

That said, a good natural foods diet, based on organic vegetables and grains, possibly supplemented with organic lean meats, is just the thing for an athlete. But if you're going on a 3 hour or so leg-burning ride, having a recovery drink of 200 cal. maltodextrin and 100 calories protein waiting for you in the car, to be drunk immediately, is a very good thing. But at that point, I have about a 1500 calorie deficit, so no problem.

As for the ratio of carb to protein in a recovery drink or meal, I don't know of a single study that's been done on that subject that was based on science, rather than marketing hype. So do what feels good, and base your recovery drink contents on the additional foods you plan on eating that day.

As for the smoothie - naw, just eat real food. Unless you have a sensory problem with it and really need to eat green liquid nummies, evidently not the case. Learn to cook. Leave the weird stuff and eat like a monkey. They eat a wonderfully varied diet. And I think they'd cook their veggies if they could.

As for the pyramid - I have it on good authority that the federal government's food pyramid is based, not on science, but rather on the demands of corporate agriculture. Note the huge slice devoted to dairy. Dairy is a bigger part of the pyramid than either fruits or vegetables? Gimme a break! Think primitive. Run down your deer with a knife in your teeth.

Just a few quick comments ...

1) I would NEVER suggest steak to ANYONE. I hate the stuff. In fact, I'm not all that fond of any sort of beef. But there are other proteins out there so that a person doesn't have to resort to powders all the time.

2) Organic food isn't all it's cracked up to be. I've seen organic food grown and raised. If you like mold, bugs, disease, and the idea that your chickens are eating gravel covered in whatever dripped from the farm vehicles ... then enjoy organic! :) When cycling, I could always tell the organic fields long before I saw the signs advertizing that they were organic. They were the sickest looking fields out there. Also, organic fields are right next to non-organic, so if the non-organic farmer air sprays for whatever, and there's a bit of a wind, the organic field will get it too ... those areas will probably be the healthiest looking areas in the field.

Now, probably not every organic field is like that ... but having seen quite a few, I've become rather sceptical of the whole organic thing. The Reader's Digest had a debate on organic food in one of their issues recently: http://www.readersdigest.ca/mag/2007/03/organic_foods.php and from what I've seen, I'd have to agree with the anti-organic side of things.

3) I don't know what pyramid you're looking at, but if you look at the Canadian food guide: http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/alt_formats/hpfb-dgpsa/pdf/pubs/res-educat_e.pdf you'll see that they suggest 8-10 servings of fruit and veggies, 8 servings of grains, 2 servings of dairy, and 3 servings of meat and meat alternatives (for males 19-50) ... lots of fruit, veggies, and grains ... not so much of dairy and meat.

I said I had problems with the USDA food pyramid, but as a set of guidelines, it beats the heck out of getting all your protein, vitamins and minerals from supplements. There are toxicity issues to be concerned with that you really don't have to worry about if you're getting your nutrients from a sensible diet of real food. (Haven't looked into the Canadian one as much, but it also seems to be good.)

Also, it's intellectually dishonest to use steak as an example of why one should drink whey protein instead-there are many, many healthy animal- and plant-based alternatives that are also far more cost effective, and you really don't need much protein per day, your body can only process so much. This is why Tour de France riders don't go to Golden Corral buffet and instead eat sensible amounts of protein. Top athletes only require slightly more than the average joe. A peanut butter sandwich, an egg, some beans and rice or a chicken breast is going to be just as good as your whey powder, and have lots of other good stuff in it as well.

Look, I'm a guy who spent his young adulthood eating Centrum vitamins and Ramen noodles. There is a better way, though. If you want to eat like Neo from The Matrix I can hardly stop you.

I try to purchase all my products locally and they happen to be organic as well. Obviously they [conventional] are going to be more healthy looking since they are all coated in a chemical plastic sheen. ;) But I don't really care how my produce looks as long as it tastes good. Not all food needs to be purchased organic but some I think is a better idea than others (for my own peace of mind).

Plus, I have to read stories about people being treated for chemical burns and other hardships for working on those farms. I would rather purchase local than organic because local farms are under more scrutiny then Big Agra. I'm sure it will start with Big Organic soon enough. Luckily, fair-trade agreements are making it less likely to happen.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2003/04/21/030421fa_fact_bowe

I said I had problems with the USDA food pyramid, but as a set of guidelines, it beats the heck out of getting all your protein, vitamins and minerals from supplements. There are toxicity issues to be concerned with that you really don't have to worry about if you're getting your nutrients from a sensible diet of real food. (Haven't looked into the Canadian one as much, but it also seems to be good.)

Also, it's intellectually dishonest to use steak as an example of why one should drink whey protein instead-there are many, many healthy animal- and plant-based alternatives that are also far more cost effective, and you really don't need much protein per day, your body can only process so much. This is why Tour de France riders don't go to Golden Corral buffet and instead eat sensible amounts of protein. Top athletes only require slightly more than the average joe. A peanut butter sandwich, an egg, some beans and rice or a chicken breast is going to be just as good as your whey powder, and have lots of other good stuff in it as well.

Look, I'm a guy who spent his young adulthood eating Centrum vitamins and Ramen noodles. There is a better way, though. If you want to eat like Neo from The Matrix I can hardly stop you.I'm not being "intellectually dishonest!" I'm responding to the first post in this thread. As for TdF riders, what do you think they're handing those guys from the car windows? PB&J? They'll do a recovery drink after a hard pull, as well as at the end of the stage. They average about 6,000 cal./day. Pasta has a 5:1 carb/protein ratio. If they ate nothing but pasta, that'd be 300g protein/day. You're right - they don't need any more than that! Hold the chicken breast. :D

Hey CFB I noticed a few interesting things in what you said, and I am going to comment on them.


First of all, to the "meat and potatoes" people. Look it up. Steak contains about 85g protein per pound. I don't buy meat, but USDA says it's running about $4.25 per pound right now. So, 454g/lb. I calculate almost $23/lb. for pure protein derived from steak. The whey protein I purchase is currently $8.40/lb. It's 80% pure protein, so that's $10.50/lb for pure protein derived from whey protein. Half the cost.

Does this mean that because whey is cheaper that it is better? With meat there are also other nutrients contained within.


Additionally, with your $4.25/lb steak, you get bovine growth hormone, GMO feed, and any number of antibiotics, plus a disgusting amount of saturated fat. Saturated fat in whey protein? 0%. Now, if you only purchase organic, grass fed beef, or only purchase organic free range chicken, you'll do a lot better health-wise, but even worse cost-wise.

Where does whey come from? If the meat were to contain all those chemicals would not the milk of the animal that the concentrated protein is being made from also contain the same chemicals.

It seems you are also biased against saturated fat, but you mention harmful chemicals preceding that. How natural is protein powder considering that it does not even resemble what it started out as. Is the chemical powder better for you that saturated fat?


As for the potatoes, a 7 oz. average potato contains only 50g of carbohydrate, only about 6g more than a Clif bar. And most people just don't eat them plain. They add butter and sour cream until there are more calories there derived from fat than from carbohydrate.


A potato can be had for mere pennies, and they give you a massive insulin response. This, in combination with your fast digesting whey protein will promote a synergistic effect. Plain are fine, but put salt and pepper on them instead of fat so you don't slow down the absorption rate

And yet you believe the marketing hype that sez you need protein supplements. Unless you are a vegan, a professional bodybuilder or an Olympic level athlete, protein deficiency is a relative non-issue for most Americans.

Unless you only eat junk food, it's a non-issue for most vegans too.

A peanut butter sandwich, an egg, some beans and rice or a chicken breast is going to be just as good as your whey powder, and have lots of other good stuff in it as well.


+1, can't get much cheaper than beans and rice.

mmm I think I'll have some potatoes and beef tonight! With healthy helping of sour cream. :D


First of all, to the "meat and potatoes" people. Look it up. Steak contains about 85g protein per pound. I don't buy meat, but USDA says it's running about $4.25 per pound right now. So, 454g/lb. I calculate almost $23/lb. for pure protein derived from steak. The whey protein I purchase is currently $8.40/lb. It's 80% pure protein, so that's $10.50/lb for pure protein derived from whey protein. Half the cost.

Additionally, with your $4.25/lb steak, you get bovine growth hormone, GMO feed, and any number of antibiotics, plus a disgusting amount of saturated fat. Saturated fat in whey protein? 0%. Now, if you only purchase organic, grass fed beef, or only purchase organic free range chicken, you'll do a lot better health-wise, but even worse cost-wise.

As for the potatoes, a 7 oz. average potato contains only 50g of carbohydrate, only about 6g more than a Clif bar. And most people just don't eat them plain. They add butter and sour cream until there are more calories there derived from fat than from carbohydrate.

That said, a good natural foods diet, based on organic vegetables and grains, possibly supplemented with organic lean meats, is just the thing for an athlete. But if you're going on a 3 hour or so leg-burning ride, having a recovery drink of 200 cal. maltodextrin and 100 calories protein waiting for you in the car, to be drunk immediately, is a very good thing. But at that point, I have about a 1500 calorie deficit, so no problem.

As for the ratio of carb to protein in a recovery drink or meal, I don't know of a single study that's been done on that subject that was based on science, rather than marketing hype. So do what feels good, and base your recovery drink contents on the additional foods you plan on eating that day.

As for the smoothie - naw, just eat real food. Unless you have a sensory problem with it and really need to eat green liquid nummies, evidently not the case. Learn to cook. Leave the weird stuff and eat like a monkey. They eat a wonderfully varied diet. And I think they'd cook their veggies if they could.

As for the pyramid - I have it on good authority that the federal government's food pyramid is based, not on science, but rather on the demands of corporate agriculture. Note the huge slice devoted to dairy. Dairy is a bigger part of the pyramid than either fruits or vegetables? Gimme a break! Think primitive. Run down your deer with a knife in your teeth.

Conscious of what "we" consume, then corrent.

Right... :rolleyes:

Hey CFB I noticed a few interesting things in what you said, and I am going to comment on them. Does this mean that because whey is cheaper that it is better? With meat there are also other nutrients contained within.Wonderful! This is all so funny. If you've read other posts of mine then you must not have noticed that I crusade against the conventional wisdom, whatever it is, and for diversity of viewpoint.

The cost business is in response to another poster saying how expensive the powders are. Actually they're not. Corn has been made so cheap by mechanized "farming" that it's almost free, though the price has really increased lately from the animal and fuel pressures on it. I used to be able to buy 50# of maltodextrin for $25. Now it's $40. :):eek::) Other than weird bike food, I've been a natural foods, organic vegetarian for 35 years. Is that complicated enough for you? I had a CTJ moment years ago, when I did 200 miles/week for months on that organic veggie diet, and my legs got to hurt so bad I could hardly stand, and I had to climb in little bitty gears. Then I discovered bike food! You could dream of climbing like me when you're my age. :) Of course the next post will be someone who'll claim he did the FC 508 on nothing but jerky and bananas.



Where does whey come from? If the meat were to contain all those chemicals would not the milk of the animal that the concentrated protein is being made from also contain the same chemicals.

It seems you are also biased against saturated fat, but you mention harmful chemicals preceding that. How natural is protein powder considering that it does not even resemble what it started out as. Is the chemical powder better for you that saturated fat?There is something to what you say. Though most of the nasty stuff is stored in the fat. Yes, whey protein is better for you than saturated fat. You must not have seen the film Supersize Me. Highly recommended. :) Life is full of compromises. If you haven't discovered that yet, you will Someday. Our cultural meme is "hold fast to your principles." Heh.



A potato can be had for mere pennies, and they give you a massive insulin response. This, in combination with your fast digesting whey protein will promote a synergistic effect. Plain are fine, but put salt and pepper on them instead of fat so you don't slow down the absorption rateSomewhat true. Maltodextrin costs about the same as potatoes. That massive insulin response is what you want. But you know, the thought of a cold 200 cal. of plain potato waiting for me in my 34° car just doesn't do it for me. :D Besides, all that chewing takes time, and what I'll need next is a beer! So I'll just whack down that recovery drink while I change clothes and put the bike in the car.

Hey CFB thank you for taking the time to respond. You make some good arguments but I would like to counter your view.


Wonderful! This is all so funny. If you've read other posts of mine then you must not have noticed that I crusade against the conventional wisdom, whatever it is, and for diversity of viewpoint.

I don't recall any posts that you have specifically made other than the one we are talking about now so I really don't know you except what I have seen in this post.

Ok, since I can't see you I am not really sure what you mean the above.
I am not sure what the conventional wisdom is, and if I am reading this right, it seems that you are as solid as I am on the answer. So I am not sure what you are crusading against.

Diversity in view point is always good to have and makes for interesting conversation.


The cost business is in response to another poster saying how expensive the powders are. Actually they're not. Corn has been made so cheap by mechanized "farming" that it's almost free, though the price has really increased lately from the animal and fuel pressures on it. I used to be able to buy 50# of maltodextrin for $25. Now it's $40. :):eek::) Other than weird bike food, I've been a natural foods, organic vegetarian for 35 years. Is that complicated enough for you? I had a CTJ moment years ago, when I did 200 miles/week for months on that organic veggie diet, and my legs got to hurt so bad I could hardly stand, and I had to climb in little bitty gears. Then I discovered bike food! You could dream of climbing like me when you're my age. :) Of course the next post will be someone who'll claim he did the FC 508 on nothing but jerky and bananas.

OK I won't debate you on this subject. I am not a vegetarian, but I see nothing wrong with being one. At the same time I do not know your reasons, if any, for choosing the vegetarian lifestyle, so I am not sure what your biases are and how they are going to color your view.

It appears like you view being vegetarian as positive for you. As for your accomplishments I am not in a position to judge. I take hill climbing challenges seriously, so if I live to how ever old you are I will to my best to beat you up the hill. However, I will let you get over the hill quicker. (just had to rib you a bit).:D



There is something to what you say. Though most of the nasty stuff is stored in the fat. Yes, whey protein is better for you than satuated fat. You must not have seen the film Supersize Me. Highly recommended. :) Life is full of compromises. If you haven't discovered that yet, you will Someday. Our cultural meme is "hold fast to your principles." Heh.

I don't believe you when you say most of the nasty stuff is stored in the fat. Most drugs especially fat soluble ones are protein bound, then you concentrate the protein and consume it where it can enter your system even easier than if it had to be extracted from fat and the crude protein. But at the same time something as processed protein powder could be better for you than sat fat, and I am not referring to living the McDonald's lifestyle either. I am talking about meat plain and simple, along with other foods in their normal state not something that passes as food.

I have seen super size me a few times. He ate a lot more than sat fat. Much of it was trans fats and a large amount of sugar. I don't think anybody will argue that eating only mc garbage for a month you will be in bad shape. If you say that Super size me proves sat fat is bad for you I think you are misunderstanding something. I am sure that if you were to consume only McDonald's food for a month, and did not touch any of the meat you would be just as bad off, if not worse.




Somewhat true. Maltodextrin costs about the same as potatoes. That massive insulin response is what you want. But you know, the thought of a cold 200 cal. of plain potato waiting for me in my 34° car just doesn't do it for me. :D Besides, all that chewing takes time, and what I'll need next is a beer! So I'll just whack down that recovery drink while I change clothes and put the bike in the car.

I don't know how much maltodextrin costs, but you initially referred to a Cliff bar.

I hear ya on the potato in the car. I know to some that will not be very appealing, an energy drink would be more prudent in the situation that you mention, plus you get liquid as well. To think of it I really do not mind potatoes, I will sometimes bring them with me when I go on long rides. That is purely a personal preference I do not think I will see others doing that.

I also agree with you about the massive insulin response, that what I was trying to get across in my post so I will not disagree with you there.

Just because something is processed doesn't mean that it's bad for you. I enjoy pasta, cheese and yogurt and those are not normal forms of the original product. Whey powder is simply the protein extracted from whey (protein+fat+lactose) leftover from cheesemaking.

If you are on a diet, whey is one of the best protein sources because it is very low Calorie, compared to red meat. I suppose instead of drinking a smoothie, you can eat a lot of tuna (which has its own issues) or egg whites (both low Caloric, but high protein sources). Obviously you can enjoy red meat on a diet.... Unless you are pulling it out of your backyard, your product has been processed in some way...unless you are a fruitarian I guess.

Thanks everyone for the posts.

Oh, as for maltodextrin costs, I've seen waxy maize starch (amylocel) for ~$2.50/lb. I've read from users that it's qualities are superior to maltodextrin.

Someday, thanks for the conversation. It's been fun.

3) I don't know what pyramid you're looking at, but if you look at the Canadian food guide: http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/alt_formats/hpfb-dgpsa/pdf/pubs/res-educat_e.pdf you'll see that they suggest 8-10 servings of fruit and veggies, 8 servings of grains, 2 servings of dairy, and 3 servings of meat and meat alternatives (for males 19-50) ... lots of fruit, veggies, and grains ... not so much of dairy and meat.
We can talk all day about ideals, but the percentage of people who hit those numbers on a regular basis is painfully small. At least he's being realistic. I don't eat much fruit and the only green thing I eat is broccoli. For breakfast I blend 14 oz water, 2-3 scoops protein, 1 1/2 cups of raw oats and guzzle it for breakfast. I buy unflavored protein and add separate flavoring. Sometimes I mix another and take it to work. Sometimes I add flax oil...then it's chicken or beef and rice for lunch and dinner with a cup of broccoli. I finish off the day with something sweet/junky. Every once in a while I have some juice but I'm not big on fructose in general.

We can talk all day about ideals, but the percentage of people who hit those numbers on a regular basis is painfully small. At least he's being realistic. I don't eat much fruit and the only green thing I eat is broccoli. For breakfast I blend 14 oz water, 2-3 scoops protein, 1 1/2 cups of raw oats and guzzle it for breakfast. I buy unflavored protein and add separate flavoring. Sometimes I mix another and take it to work. Sometimes I add flax oil...then it's chicken or beef and rice for lunch and dinner with a cup of broccoli. I finish off the day with something sweet/junky. Every once in a while I have some juice but I'm not big on fructose in general.

I don't hit the ideals on the Canadian Food Guide either ... if I did, I'd be absolutely stuffed every day. I couldn't eat that much. But it's good to have something like that to aim for. Even if we couldn't reach the number of servings in each category, we could at least aim for that sort of percentage breakdown ... in other words, heavy on the fruit, veggies, and grains; light on the dairy and meat.

Unless you only eat junk food, it's a non-issue for most vegans too.

Yep. That is the question I get most often as a vegan - where do you get your protein and calcium? It's amazing how little the average American knows about their food or what's in it...

Fruits and veggies is not that hard. I get 12-14 servings of fruits and veggies/day. I keep track. Funny, eh? But it's interesting. This morning, half an apple, then a serving of fruit in a protein smoothie, then a glass of juice. So that's three right there. Also home made jam on the butterless w.w. toast, but that's not enough to count.

Lunch will be a Turkish lunch as taught to me by Jaous in Istanbul. A bit of bread, feta cheese, and cut up tomato, cucumber, green pepper, and olives, all spread out on newspaper. And fruit juice. So that's 4 more servings. It's so easy.

By gerber I implied that I already know that information, while being basic in nature. I'm not making up shakes with anything over 20grams of protein, and the only meat I eat is either from sushi rolls a few times a week and maybe 8oz chicken once a week. So after a workout and after evaluating how many calories I burned, the best thing to do (for weight loss) is to use the 4:1 ratio to determine how many grams I need, regarding 4 calories per gram of each, to make up the 400 calories? Or do I make the total slightly less?

If you are looking for weight loss, my advice is to work to keep your blood sugar constant during the ride and to get around 300 calories as part of your recovery nutrition. That's assuming you're riding for a couple of hours. If you keep the blood sugar constant, you will not need to replace the fat you burn. If you get depleted in sugar, you will find it really hard not to overeat later.

If you are really hungry 30 minutes after the recovery drink, then you aren't getting enough. If you feel really full, you may be drinking too much.

I use Endurox, and others I know have good luck with it. Chocolate milk is also a good choice if you tolerate lactose well. Maltodextrin and protein would also be fine.