Pete Clark
09-07-03, 12:19 AM
Read this and post your opinion:
http://www.bikexprt.com/bikepol/educ/educate.htm
http://www.bikexprt.com/bikepol/educ/educate.htm
Advocacy & Safety - Excellent summary
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Pete Clark
09-07-03, 12:27 AM
Since I have the first chance to answer, I will post my opinion.
I think cyclist education (and education for pedestrian interaction with motorists,) especially for children, is long overdue. Every point made in this article is right on target.
10.
I think cyclist education (and education for pedestrian interaction with motorists,) especially for children, is long overdue. Every point made in this article is right on target.
10.
Chris L
09-07-03, 02:47 AM
I agree, although any education given has to be the right education, coming from people who actually ride. This quote from the article just about sums it all up really:
Sure, "Officer Friendly" visits American elementary schools for his one-hour bicycle safety lecture which can do little more than scare the children
The reason we see so many kids on bikes doing stupid things like riding against the flow of traffic and so on is because this is actually how they've been taught to ride by people who just have no idea. A lot of people seem to assume that because there are so few cycling fatalities that occur, there is no need for proper education. They don't realise that the main reason for there being so few cycling fatalities is that cycling is basically a very forgiving activity.
Sure, "Officer Friendly" visits American elementary schools for his one-hour bicycle safety lecture which can do little more than scare the children
The reason we see so many kids on bikes doing stupid things like riding against the flow of traffic and so on is because this is actually how they've been taught to ride by people who just have no idea. A lot of people seem to assume that because there are so few cycling fatalities that occur, there is no need for proper education. They don't realise that the main reason for there being so few cycling fatalities is that cycling is basically a very forgiving activity.
closetbiker
09-07-03, 03:58 AM
As I've always said, prevention is the most effective way to reduce accidents and injury.
I taught my kids from the time they were very young about being safe on the street. It takes a long time to learn and they need someone watching them as they learn. It always blew me away how so many parents let thier kids ride out on the street with the only requisit being to "balance".
It just makes so much sense to include cycling as a precurser to gaining a drivers licence.
One point of note in regards to Europe being a safer place to be, traffic wise, is that those low cycling accident/injury rates correspond with low driver accident/injury rates too.
I taught my kids from the time they were very young about being safe on the street. It takes a long time to learn and they need someone watching them as they learn. It always blew me away how so many parents let thier kids ride out on the street with the only requisit being to "balance".
It just makes so much sense to include cycling as a precurser to gaining a drivers licence.
One point of note in regards to Europe being a safer place to be, traffic wise, is that those low cycling accident/injury rates correspond with low driver accident/injury rates too.
bac
09-07-03, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by Chris L
The reason we see so many kids on bikes doing stupid things like riding against the flow of traffic and so on is because this is actually how they've been taught to ride by people who just have no idea.
Where I live, you simply cannot obey the rules of the road and survive. If you do obey the rules of the road, you will get run over or struck by impatient motorists. Motorists just don't think cyclists should be on the road, and they don't give any space or time. You have to cut corners, run lights, etc. As a matter of pure survival, I routinely pop on and off the road onto sidewalks, etc.
As ironic as it sounds, it's the most safe way to ride. :mad:
The reason we see so many kids on bikes doing stupid things like riding against the flow of traffic and so on is because this is actually how they've been taught to ride by people who just have no idea.
Where I live, you simply cannot obey the rules of the road and survive. If you do obey the rules of the road, you will get run over or struck by impatient motorists. Motorists just don't think cyclists should be on the road, and they don't give any space or time. You have to cut corners, run lights, etc. As a matter of pure survival, I routinely pop on and off the road onto sidewalks, etc.
As ironic as it sounds, it's the most safe way to ride. :mad:
Rich Clark
09-07-03, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by bac
Where I live, you simply cannot obey the rules of the road and survive. If you do obey the rules of the road, you will get run over or struck by impatient motorists. Motorists just don't think cyclists should be on the road, and they don't give any space or time. You have to cut corners, run lights, etc. As a matter of pure survival, I routinely pop on and off the road onto sidewalks, etc.
As ironic as it sounds, it's the most safe way to ride. :mad:
I don't believe you. And I certainly don't agree with you.
Everybody thinks there's something special about where they live that makes it unique and different from everywhere else. Ask anybody where the worst drivers are, and they invariably respond with the name of wherever they happen to live.
I've been riding for 45 years, and I've ridden all over the country. The one universal truth I've never had reason to doubt is this:
If you act like a vehicle, you'll be treated like one. This does NOT mean "act like a car." You're not a car, you're a different type of vehicle, but a vehicle nonetheless. And what distinguishes a vehicle in the mind of other road users is one simple thing: predictability.
Vehicles move in predictable, consistent directions, without weaving. If they intend to change directions, they wait until it's clear, signal their intentions, and proceed.
I've almost never encountered a situation where it was necessary for a cyclist to run lights, cut corners, jump on and off the sidewalk -- unless it was just an impatient cyclist who was unwilling to stop -- and almost never one where it was "safer" for the cyclist.
I'm sure you have all sorts of rationalizations to justify the sort of lawless cycling you describe, and you probably think I just have a stick up my butt. But if I can successfully ride as a vehicular cyclist in places like Chicago, Philadelphia, Washington DC, Charlotte NC, Harrisburg PA, and Minneapolis (just to name the places where I've spent more than 6 weeks as a cyclist), not to mention many thousands of solo touring miles, maybe I know something.
RichC
Where I live, you simply cannot obey the rules of the road and survive. If you do obey the rules of the road, you will get run over or struck by impatient motorists. Motorists just don't think cyclists should be on the road, and they don't give any space or time. You have to cut corners, run lights, etc. As a matter of pure survival, I routinely pop on and off the road onto sidewalks, etc.
As ironic as it sounds, it's the most safe way to ride. :mad:
I don't believe you. And I certainly don't agree with you.
Everybody thinks there's something special about where they live that makes it unique and different from everywhere else. Ask anybody where the worst drivers are, and they invariably respond with the name of wherever they happen to live.
I've been riding for 45 years, and I've ridden all over the country. The one universal truth I've never had reason to doubt is this:
If you act like a vehicle, you'll be treated like one. This does NOT mean "act like a car." You're not a car, you're a different type of vehicle, but a vehicle nonetheless. And what distinguishes a vehicle in the mind of other road users is one simple thing: predictability.
Vehicles move in predictable, consistent directions, without weaving. If they intend to change directions, they wait until it's clear, signal their intentions, and proceed.
I've almost never encountered a situation where it was necessary for a cyclist to run lights, cut corners, jump on and off the sidewalk -- unless it was just an impatient cyclist who was unwilling to stop -- and almost never one where it was "safer" for the cyclist.
I'm sure you have all sorts of rationalizations to justify the sort of lawless cycling you describe, and you probably think I just have a stick up my butt. But if I can successfully ride as a vehicular cyclist in places like Chicago, Philadelphia, Washington DC, Charlotte NC, Harrisburg PA, and Minneapolis (just to name the places where I've spent more than 6 weeks as a cyclist), not to mention many thousands of solo touring miles, maybe I know something.
RichC
Rich Clark
09-07-03, 10:28 AM
Educating kids about the rules of the road, beginning as soon as they are allowed outside the house, is obviously a good idea.
It's not necessary (perhaps not even desirable) to tie it specifically to bikes, or cars. If a kid understands the way the world works, then that becomes context for whatever activity they want to try.
RichC
It's not necessary (perhaps not even desirable) to tie it specifically to bikes, or cars. If a kid understands the way the world works, then that becomes context for whatever activity they want to try.
RichC
AndrewP
09-07-03, 10:34 AM
The main benefit of Bicycle education is that it teaches traffic awareness - this has payoffs when the participants are pedestrians or motorists. However the education should also include technique, like emergency braking, slow riding, and push on opposite handlebar for emergency turns. The education should also be fun with things like bike polo and BMX tricks.
randya
09-07-03, 02:12 PM
I don't see how you can't agree w/ Allen's analysis and proposal. If I was better able to influence how my tax dollars are spent at the local, state and federal level, this is exactly the sort of thing I think my tax dollars SHOULD be spent on.
John E
09-07-03, 08:44 PM
The three Gospels of John (John Forester's "Effective Cycling," John Franklin's "Cyclecraft," and John S. Allen's "Street Smarts") should be required reading for all cyclists, pedestrians, and motorists. All three concur with Rick Clark's advocacy of lawful vehicular cycling.
lsits
09-07-03, 09:30 PM
There should be at the very least a few hours in driver's education dedicated to the rights and responsibilities of cyclists on the roadways. Maybe even a few questions on the written test.
Dont' get me wrong, I think cycling education at a young age is a very good idea. It seems that a lot of accidents are caused by ignorance on the part of cyclists and moterists. If people can be taught an an early age the proper side of the street to ride on and how to safely make turns and lane changes, I think many accidents will be avoided. However, kids will be kids and in this "Jackass" world we live in, there will always be some who do stupid things.
Education also needs to be directed towards moterists. They need to know that bicycles are vehicles and have as much right to the roadway as automobiles. They need to be taught how to safely overtake and pass a cyclist, when the cyclist has the right-of-way, and how to better "see" cyclists.
I'm done with my rambling.
Dont' get me wrong, I think cycling education at a young age is a very good idea. It seems that a lot of accidents are caused by ignorance on the part of cyclists and moterists. If people can be taught an an early age the proper side of the street to ride on and how to safely make turns and lane changes, I think many accidents will be avoided. However, kids will be kids and in this "Jackass" world we live in, there will always be some who do stupid things.
Education also needs to be directed towards moterists. They need to know that bicycles are vehicles and have as much right to the roadway as automobiles. They need to be taught how to safely overtake and pass a cyclist, when the cyclist has the right-of-way, and how to better "see" cyclists.
I'm done with my rambling.
Chris L
09-08-03, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by bac
Where I live, you simply cannot obey the rules of the road and survive. If you do obey the rules of the road, you will get run over or struck by impatient motorists. Motorists just don't think cyclists should be on the road, and they don't give any space or time. You have to cut corners, run lights, etc. As a matter of pure survival, I routinely pop on and off the road onto sidewalks, etc.
As ironic as it sounds, it's the most safe way to ride. :mad:
I'm with Rich on this one. I'd like to see anybody on this forum describe "dangerous" behaviour from motorists that doesn't normally happen around here. Drunks? They start at 7am everyday. Red light runners? Yep. Speeding? Is there anyone that doesn't (apart from those who can't because they're stuck in traffic)?
The whole point is, such circumstances make it even more important to ride properly and predictably. Weaving in and out of traffic is not going to make you any less likely to be hit by drivers who do not care (or those who deliberately try to hit you). However, it will make life harder for the considerate drivers out there (and yes, they do exist).
Where I live, you simply cannot obey the rules of the road and survive. If you do obey the rules of the road, you will get run over or struck by impatient motorists. Motorists just don't think cyclists should be on the road, and they don't give any space or time. You have to cut corners, run lights, etc. As a matter of pure survival, I routinely pop on and off the road onto sidewalks, etc.
As ironic as it sounds, it's the most safe way to ride. :mad:
I'm with Rich on this one. I'd like to see anybody on this forum describe "dangerous" behaviour from motorists that doesn't normally happen around here. Drunks? They start at 7am everyday. Red light runners? Yep. Speeding? Is there anyone that doesn't (apart from those who can't because they're stuck in traffic)?
The whole point is, such circumstances make it even more important to ride properly and predictably. Weaving in and out of traffic is not going to make you any less likely to be hit by drivers who do not care (or those who deliberately try to hit you). However, it will make life harder for the considerate drivers out there (and yes, they do exist).
Da Tinker
09-08-03, 05:46 AM
'Officer Friendly' is more of a disservice to kids than an aide. It's usually a non-riding officer presenting the ill-concieved program of misinformation. I am dismayed by the many adults I see riding around here in a haphazard, unpredicable fashion. And by the local cops who seem to live to ticket cyclists for riding on the sidewalk, and at the same time, seem to condone fast, reckless driving. People, it's a limit, not a threshold speed.
John has it right. The benefits of such a program would cascade all through society here in America, a country increasing marked by rude drivers, obesity, health problems, and needless traffic deaths.
The local school system has an instructor who rotates through the middle schools, teaching Forester's Effective Cycling at the 7th grade level. I pray that the program continues and hope to see the effects after 20 years.
I plan to become an Effective Cycling instructor here this fall, and hope to teach it at the local college. Should make a fun match with the driver training I already do.
John has it right. The benefits of such a program would cascade all through society here in America, a country increasing marked by rude drivers, obesity, health problems, and needless traffic deaths.
The local school system has an instructor who rotates through the middle schools, teaching Forester's Effective Cycling at the 7th grade level. I pray that the program continues and hope to see the effects after 20 years.
I plan to become an Effective Cycling instructor here this fall, and hope to teach it at the local college. Should make a fun match with the driver training I already do.
Weasel
09-08-03, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by lsits
Education also needs to be directed towards moterists. They need to know that bicycles are vehicles and have as much right to the roadway as automobiles. They need to be taught how to safely overtake and pass a cyclist, when the cyclist has the right-of-way, and how to better "see" cyclists.
I think education has to be directed towards everyone - and from day 1. As soon as a child can walk it should be taught the Green Cross Code (how to cross the road safely, and the dangers of the road). As soon as he/she can ride a bike they should be given regular lessons on riding a bicycle safely, preferably in school and then given a cycling proficiency test. The next stage is obviously a driving licence, but I am of the opinion that learning to cross the road and a cycling test should become compusory to everyone.
Incidently, in last weeks "Focus" magazine (a german publication), a survey found that a cyclist in America was 4 times more likely to be killed or injured than a cyclist in Europe. The survey was done by an American university. Aparently this was due to the better standard of cycle paths in Europe. Cycle paths in America were found to be downright dangerous in comparison to those in the Netherlands and in Germany, which were found to be exemplary. (So I will quit whinging about the cycle paths here ;) ).
Education also needs to be directed towards moterists. They need to know that bicycles are vehicles and have as much right to the roadway as automobiles. They need to be taught how to safely overtake and pass a cyclist, when the cyclist has the right-of-way, and how to better "see" cyclists.
I think education has to be directed towards everyone - and from day 1. As soon as a child can walk it should be taught the Green Cross Code (how to cross the road safely, and the dangers of the road). As soon as he/she can ride a bike they should be given regular lessons on riding a bicycle safely, preferably in school and then given a cycling proficiency test. The next stage is obviously a driving licence, but I am of the opinion that learning to cross the road and a cycling test should become compusory to everyone.
Incidently, in last weeks "Focus" magazine (a german publication), a survey found that a cyclist in America was 4 times more likely to be killed or injured than a cyclist in Europe. The survey was done by an American university. Aparently this was due to the better standard of cycle paths in Europe. Cycle paths in America were found to be downright dangerous in comparison to those in the Netherlands and in Germany, which were found to be exemplary. (So I will quit whinging about the cycle paths here ;) ).
joeprim
09-09-03, 09:22 AM
Just think they might even grow up to drive cars better since they would be used to following the rules. I always thought that trying to teach teenagers to drive was too late.
Joe
Joe
greywolf
09-09-03, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by joeprim
Just think they might even grow up to drive cars better since they would be used to following the rules. I always thought that trying to teach teenagers to drive was too late.
Joe
I read somewere that its a proven fact that cyclists make more considerate & traffic aware drivers , if a programe such as muted were to take place on a large scale it might even reduce the overall carnage experianced on all of our roads .
everhopefull !!!
Just think they might even grow up to drive cars better since they would be used to following the rules. I always thought that trying to teach teenagers to drive was too late.
Joe
I read somewere that its a proven fact that cyclists make more considerate & traffic aware drivers , if a programe such as muted were to take place on a large scale it might even reduce the overall carnage experianced on all of our roads .
everhopefull !!!
lsits
09-09-03, 09:59 AM
I think we all agree that traffic safety education at an early age is a good idea. We also agree that children need to be instructed by people who actually ride. How can this be accomplished? With school budgets being slashed I don't think that new teachers can be hired to teach bicycle safety.
I think that this is where local bicycle clubs can provide a valuable service. Maybe a team can be put together that can ride to the elementary schools in their area to put on an assembly concerning bicycle safety. Maybe an obsticle course or some mountain biking techniques would capture the interest of the kids. The whole time, helmet use, hand signals, riding direction, and proper riding technique would be emphasized.
If an article was printed in the local paper about this service, think how much goodwill would be generated towards cyclists by the general public.
Just a thought.:)
I think that this is where local bicycle clubs can provide a valuable service. Maybe a team can be put together that can ride to the elementary schools in their area to put on an assembly concerning bicycle safety. Maybe an obsticle course or some mountain biking techniques would capture the interest of the kids. The whole time, helmet use, hand signals, riding direction, and proper riding technique would be emphasized.
If an article was printed in the local paper about this service, think how much goodwill would be generated towards cyclists by the general public.
Just a thought.:)
closetbiker
09-09-03, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by greywolf
I read somewere that its a proven fact that cyclists make more considerate & traffic aware drivers
I think by being more vunerable, you have more incentive to participate in traffic more safely. That's the opposite of the SUV buyers thinking. Riding makes you more aware and more cautious.
I read somewere that its a proven fact that cyclists make more considerate & traffic aware drivers
I think by being more vunerable, you have more incentive to participate in traffic more safely. That's the opposite of the SUV buyers thinking. Riding makes you more aware and more cautious.
Pete Clark
09-09-03, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Da Tinker
The local school system has an instructor who rotates through the middle schools, teaching Forester's Effective Cycling at the 7th grade level. I pray that the program continues and hope to see the effects after 20 years.
Effective Cycling instructors ply their trade because they love it and believe in it, and for no other reason. I wish there were more of them.
The local school system has an instructor who rotates through the middle schools, teaching Forester's Effective Cycling at the 7th grade level. I pray that the program continues and hope to see the effects after 20 years.
Effective Cycling instructors ply their trade because they love it and believe in it, and for no other reason. I wish there were more of them.
John E
09-09-03, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Weasel
Incidently, in last weeks "Focus" magazine (a german publication), a survey found that a cyclist in America was 4 times more likely to be killed or injured than a cyclist in Europe. ... Apparently this was due to the better standard of cycle paths in Europe. Cycle paths in America were found to be downright dangerous in comparison to those in the Netherlands and in Germany, which were found to be exemplary.
According to Nathank, the cycle paths in Munchen are a disaster, with cyclists being set up for right-hook collisions at every intersection. The real difference in safety is that northern Europeans tend to take driving more seriously than Americans; they drive smaller cars at lower urban-area speeds, and they must pass much more stringent examinations to obtain and to retain a driver's license. Until the U.S. develops the political will to hold motorists accountable for "accidents," the situation will not improve.
Incidently, in last weeks "Focus" magazine (a german publication), a survey found that a cyclist in America was 4 times more likely to be killed or injured than a cyclist in Europe. ... Apparently this was due to the better standard of cycle paths in Europe. Cycle paths in America were found to be downright dangerous in comparison to those in the Netherlands and in Germany, which were found to be exemplary.
According to Nathank, the cycle paths in Munchen are a disaster, with cyclists being set up for right-hook collisions at every intersection. The real difference in safety is that northern Europeans tend to take driving more seriously than Americans; they drive smaller cars at lower urban-area speeds, and they must pass much more stringent examinations to obtain and to retain a driver's license. Until the U.S. develops the political will to hold motorists accountable for "accidents," the situation will not improve.
Pete Clark
09-10-03, 07:55 PM
I don't know about European cycle paths, but the ones I've seen here in my neck of the woods are designed like the playgrounds Bill Cosby used to joke about. He joked that playground builders
were "purposely trying to knock us off."
Now on to American drivers...
...oh, nevermind!
:rolleyes:
were "purposely trying to knock us off."
Now on to American drivers...
...oh, nevermind!
:rolleyes: