Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - BQ article on PBP equipment choices

Interesting piece in Bicycle Quarterly definitely on target for this forum. Read and discuss:

http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/currentissue.html

Thanks - this is a fantastic article.

With so many variables it's hard to draw any conclusion, but that was a great article on a good attempt.

Yeah. a good, and very honest piece. Yet, without the data from the entire DNF population you can't really claim anything about the statistics. Off hand, as far as the 2007 PBP goes - the single biggest issue IS clothing, all other equipment "pluses" combined won't fix what happens to a rider when they cycle 40 or 50 miles while chilled.

A comment about my own equipment choices ... they were a near perfect as they could be. I don't think I would change anything for a future 1200K.

HOWEVER, what I did with my equipment choices was not quite so perfect. In a state of sleep deprivation and hunger, I stuffed my soaked gloves into my Carradice bag at the Mortange stop, 140 kms into the ride ... just stuffed them right in there on top of everything. As I'm sure you can imagine, they soaked half the stuff I was carrying with me in my Carradice. I had hoped to change into a fresh pair of shorts (which I was carrying with me) in Fougeres or Tinteniac, but they were wet. I went to grab a different pair of gloves at one point ... and ... you guessed it ... they were wet.

Later when Rowan and I decided we weren't having any fun with the ride anymore and we were making up a "bed" in a train shelter (like a North American bus shelter) for the night, I discovered that the entire bag with various clothing items in it was soaked ... and I so I had to use that very wet bag as my pillow.

Next time, I need to remember to use the plastic bags I always bring with me.

Next time, I need to remember to use the plastic bags I always bring with me.

Zip lock bags are your friend..:p I use them to store and sort stuff I carry on my bike. My bags are water resistant not 100% water proof. I reuse them at home for various things so I don't end up wasting them after the ride.

As for the PBP stats article. I'm really glad Jan is taking the time to produce articles like this. I don't agree with all the conclusions he makes, but I find he usually provides enough background info that you can validate his view points and where you disagree come up with your own. Heck of a lot more interesting reading then most bike magazines.

Zip lock bags are your friend..:p I use them to store and sort stuff I carry on my bike. My bags are water resistant not 100% water proof. I reuse them at home for various things so I don't end up wasting them after the ride.



Yeah ... and I had them with me. But for some reason my brain power didn't kick in when I needed it.

That issue came in the mail today. I've only just glanced at it. The one thing that jumped out at me (aside from the hideous cost of the frames he was reviewing)
was that riders with panniers were a little more likely to finish.

The most interesting conclusion, IMO, is that equipment failure contributed only 4% of the DNFs. Most of the people who stopped did so due to illness/injury, and the two largest slices of that pie are digestion troubles and neck pain.

While not nearly as interesting as arguments about bags/lights/frame materials, it looks like the true secret to LD riding is learning what to eat and raising your stem. :lol:

it looks like the true secret to LD riding is learning what to eat and raising your stem. :lol:


That's true ... and it's what I've been saying for a long time. :D You've got to be comfortable on the bicycle ... and you've got to keep eating.

You've also got to have the motivation.

there is one strong thread in the article; rack & luggage problems.

I couldn't use my Carradice Bagman without modification for a really long ride. If I used a pannier rack, I'd take spare bolts.

I think this is one area of bike parts that hasn't improved in the way that gears and wheels have.

I think illness may have accounted for people either getting sick from the rain or sick of the rain, which may largely be a combination of a clothing and motivational problems.

Interesting article. Although the nature of the data makes it more difficult to make global conclusions. For instance, there is a self-selection bias with respect to the spoke counts on the rider's wheels. My guess is that there were few Clydesdales on 24-spoke-count wheels. In other words, the rider selected a wheel that he or she felt would survive the ride. That no statistical difference was observed might just be due to riders making good selections.

One thing you have to remember about Randonneuring is that we, Randonneurs, ride anything and everything ... and part of the fun of events like the PBP is chosing equipment (bicycle, gear, etc.) that are unique. If you've got a bicycle that is out of the ordinary in some way, everyone will "Oooo" and "Ahhh" over it ....... like the "Push-Me-Pull-You" tandem that was there this year. It was sitting up on the platform area just outside the gym and everyone (including me) stopped to have a look. One of my friends was riding a front-wheel drive recumbent and it had its share of oglers too.

So trying to come up with official stats on what works best for events like the PBP is a bit of a pointless task when the goal of half the riders is to come up with something different from all the rest.

Well there are many ways to completely discount any statistics culled from the survey.

1) There is no way of verifying that the riders who chose a given type or piece of equipment used the equipment properly. (see Machka's comment)

2) There is no way of verifying the "reasons" given for DNF at PBP by any rider have anything to do with the actual status of the rider's ability, health or equipment selection. ( see Machka's comment)

There could have been objective questions asked that could have revealed the status of the majority of the riders the majority of the time: Questions like, how many hours during the ride did you feel cold? How many hours during the ride did your stomach feel upset? But even if you use clearly objective format for any questions - you still end up with "estimated subjective" responses.

I'd like to find out the ratio DNF riders that previously completed PBP successfully. Maybe it's harder to do PBP a second time - if you have already completed PBP successfully in the past.

In other words, PBP is more fun the first time around.

I'd like to find out the ratio DNF riders that previously completed PBP successfully. Maybe it's harder to do PBP a second time - if you have already completed PBP successfully in the past.

In other words, PBP is more fun the first time around. I think that would be a subjective assesment as well. It's as fun as you can make it. Though, I'd also be curious to see the overall relationship between experience and completion rate, and would be interested in seeing the results of RUSA's survey whenever that's released. The two dueling theories, in my mind, are:

a) if you've done PBP before, you don't have anything to prove, and you're there just for the fun of it. If the particular year's PBP is difficult, you're more likely to DNF.

b) if you haven't done PBP before, then you don't have the experience to know where the optimum sleep points and/or services are and are more likely to be surprised by, say, how much climbing there is to do between Loudeac and Carhaix, given that the initial 100k was relatively flat.

but, again, without the RUSA results, that's all just supposition.

i was kinda surprised by the tyre size data.

Well there are many ways to completely discount any statistics culled from the survey.

I think that is a little too strong of a statement. Personally speaking, someone should definitely be skeptical of any results; but it is a beginning to a better understanding of long distance cycling.

For instance, if there was some aspect of my "ride" that needed adjustment or could be subjectively improved, I think that the survey would be a useful tool. I would just keep in the back of my mind that any inferences from the survey would be pretty fuzzy.

I'd like to find out the ratio DNF riders that previously completed PBP successfully.


Up until the last few PBPs, newbies DNFed more often than anciens. More recently, the DNF rate has been the same for both groups but I've not examined this year's DNF figures.

One thing you have to remember about Randonneuring is that we, Randonneurs, ride anything and everything ... and part of the fun of events like the PBP is chosing equipment (bicycle, gear, etc.) that are unique.

So trying to come up with official stats on what works best for events like the PBP is a bit of a pointless task when the goal of half the riders is to come up with something different from all the rest.
well, from what I saw, I don't think it's quite 'half' ;) Sure, there are a lot of weird and interesting machines on brevets. But, 5000 bikes were on PBP and only 250 of those were 'specials'. While everyone might have some kind of jury-rigged lighting mount or hand-made saddlebags or custom forged fenders attached to their bike, a great number of us still make choices based on what's available at our local bike shop and online sources; and for that it's good to know that more people have DNF'ed with hydration packs and that despite expectations, you don't 'need' 28mm tires to survive a 1200k.

If anything, I can use this article and point out to my friends that they can definitely ride a brevet with a bike that they currently own. Carbon fiber bike with 25mm tires and no fenders? Go for it. You'll be in good company. Steel bike with 32 mm tires, fenders and generator lights? Then, hey, that works too. Don't own a Brooks, but own a gel saddle? Well, you might be more likely to DNF, but some folks have finished PBP with a gel saddle, so perhaps you can be among them.

I don't think a survey has to be definitive to succeed at providing information to an interested audience. I just wish that the BQ survey wasn't so gear focused, and was instead a little more holistic in its approach.

Interesting piece in Bicycle Quarterly definitely on target for this forum. Read and discuss:

http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/currentissue.html

Very interesting indeed. Perhaps the sensible thing would be to ride a bike like the one used by the co-author, Jan Heine. He got round in fifty hours on a thirty year old bike! His article about his ride is very interesting also but one thing intrigues me. Jan wries "Alain closely hugged the right edge of the road, and with the northerly wind coming from the left, I found no shelter and finally could not keep up the pace any longer. I dropped back." This is his mate putting him in the wind after 1000km!! Is Jan that very rare thing, an unassertive American? What didn't he tell Alain to move out 350mm so he could tuck in to his right?

I've been developing an interest in brevets and have been lurking around here for a couple of months. Great article!

Back to lurking, learning, listening.....

In 2003, I completed the PBP with my steel Marinoni Ciclo, Machak, with 700x25 tires (that's all I ever use), a gel saddle, and an expandable trunk bag.

During that PBP, I decided that my expandable trunk bag was going to retire and I was going to get a Carradice; and shortly after the PBP, I replaced my saddle with a Brooks.

So I rode the 2007 PBP with my steel Marinoni Ciclo, Machak, with 700x25 tires, a Brooks saddle, and a Carradice bag. Much better.

And yet I still DNF'd the 2007 PBP.

Why? Well, the 2007 PBP was VERY, VERY, VERY different from the 2003 PBP. The 2003 PBP was fun ... there were hundreds of people lining the roads, up at all hours in the towns, providing us with snacks every so often along the way, and generally cheering us on. I think I ate only 2 energy bars which I had in my bag because there was so much food along the way. And the support and encouragement was wonderful! In addition to that, I was able to catch 5 minute naps anywhere along the way because it was dry. And I was able to keep up a good speed ... also because it was dry.

On the 2007 PBP, there weren't nearly as many people out ... in places near the start that were packed with people in 2003, there were a couple policemen watching the intersection. It was too wet for the number of spectators. I ran out of energy bars (I brought about 8 with me) because there were only a couple tables with food set up along the way, and really had to start thinking about what I could take with me from the controls. I couldn't nap whenever I wanted because the ditches were full of water. And I couldn't ride as fast as I wanted because the roads were slick with water.

Rowan and I had hoped to take in more of the culture and atmosphere of the PBP. I had planned to take something in the neighborhood of hundreds of photos of everything along the way. We planned to stop at all the tables along the way and chat to the people. In other words, we wanted to make a real event of the ride. But that was impossible. Half the time I couldn't take pictures because it was pouring rain. We were travelling too slowly to stop and chat ... and there really wasn't anyone to stop and chat too. We just figured, "Why bother".

So there was no equipment failure on our part, and no injury or illness ... just a lack of desire to continue. :)

And for us ... we were there to tour France ... the PBP was just an excuse to go to France at that time of year.

Is Jan that very rare thing, an unassertive American? What didn't he tell Alain to move out 350mm so he could tuck in to his right?

Jan is a German immigrant. That aside, I wondered why his buddy put him the gutter too.

OK, I've finally been able to open the article so I can talk about some of the things in it.

Fenders - I took mine rear fender off and rode without it. I didn't miss it.

Lights - SON Dynohub ... but that's one thing I need to adjust. I want to run two lights instead of the one I currently have.

Tires - 700x25

Luggage - Carradice Nelson Longflap, a handlebar bag, and a Bento bag. NO camelbak ... I've done a 1200K with one, and didn't like it - my left arm was very painful and eventually went dead on me.

Saddle - Brooks

Jersey - I had my Canadian jersey on as one of my layers, but also had a merino wool top on, with a polyester fleece jacket, and of course a rain jacket over top.


The article says:
"Unlike in other editions of PBP with more favorable weather,
the DNF rate was much higher among 90-hour riders than among
80/84-hour riders. In fact, the 80/84-hour riders had about the
same DNF rate as in years with more favorable weather. It appears
that the slower riders suffered disproportionately from the unfavorable
conditions."

In talking to some of the 84 hour riders who passed me along the road, the 90 hours rode through quite a bit more rain. It started to rain when the wave Rowan and I were in set off, and basically continued to rain most of the way after that with a few short-lived breaks.

The article says:
"A “typical” randonneur bike does not exist."

From what I've seen in the years I've been doing this ... that's true. The "What Bike Should I Get?" question is almost pointless in Randonneuring. Get whatever you want!


Now something I find interesting is that this article is based entirely (or almost entirely) on the stats from RUSA riders. From my observations RUSA riders tend to go with "off the rack" bicycles and "off the rack" equipment, whereas European riders (and even some Canadians and Australians) tended to go with something a bit more customized in some way. On the 2003 PBP, I could pick out the Americans ... they were the ones riding the shiny Treks with small trunk bags and handlebar bags. I could pick out the British riders ... they were the ones riding something that was either completely unique (i.e. tricycles, or the triplette), or something that looked like it was 50 years old with Brooks saddles and Carradice bags. The French riders were usually riding something that looked well used, and had very little in the way of lighting. Canadians tend to ride Marinonis or other Canadian bicycles, or American bicycles, with Carradice bags ... sort of an American/British combo. Of course there were likely variations to this ... but I was bang-on with my guesses. :D

In 2007, it was hard to tell ... everyone was swathed in rain gear, the whole ride seemed dark for some reason, and it was very hard to tell who was who.

In talking to some of the 84 hour riders who passed me along the road, the 90 hours rode through quite a bit more rain. It started to rain when the wave Rowan and I were in set off, and basically continued to rain most of the way after that with a few short-lived breaks.


I was fairly close to the 84 hr closing times for the first three days and it was pretty wet with short breaks from before Mortagne outbound (except for around Brest). Faster 84 hr riders tended to avoid some of the rain apparently.

I finished sub-80 hrs, once it stopped raining. Do you think there was a link? ;)

i was kinda surprised by the tyre size data.

I wasn't. Knowing quite a few randonneurs, my own observation is that randonneurs tend to ride the typical road bike which does not accommodate wide tires. There is a large cultural bias against wider tires because they don't look sleek. Even riders who are light enough to run 25mm tires at 85-90 psi habitually pump their tires up the maximum pressure shown on the sidewalls.

For my part, once I switched to 30mm tires at 75-85 psi, I stopped getting numb fingers on brevets.

I wasn't. Knowing quite a few randonneurs, my own observation is that randonneurs tend to ride the typical road bike which does not accommodate wide tires. There is a large cultural bias against wider tires because they don't look sleek. Even riders who are light enough to run 25mm tires at 85-90 psi habitually pump their tires up the maximum pressure shown on the sidewalls.

For my part, once I switched to 30mm tires at 75-85 psi, I stopped getting numb fingers on brevets.

yeah i run 25mm on my current long distance bike (an IF club racer). i weigh 130 but i'm gonna swtich 'em for some 30mm at least. i don't care about "sleek". i like a cush ride.

the 32mm marathons i have on a singlespeed are fast and man are they comfortable.

Great article. I would suggest equipment and preparation mattered more than usual. Comfort (neck, feet, hands, ...) keep warm, stay dry (fenders were essential IMHO), see correctly even during the darkest night, under pouring rain (maintaining good speed) was essential. I managed to stay all the time within my predetermined time schedule and arrived within 13' from the targeted 88 hours. That helped a lot, together with adequate sleep and dry clothes. Food was available at the controls and in patisseries, cafés or restaurants along the road, at least during the day. I agree with others' comments (Machka for one): each one of us believe his (her) personal bike is the best there is. This is the case for my Alex Singer randonneuse. Total weight was not an issue.