Classic & Vintage - retro/modern italian steel (cinelli and mondonico)

hi,

i'm in the process of putting together a build. i'm a bit older than most (late 30's) and i'm not really interested in having the latest, greatest, lightest, racing bike. i'm more interested in riding the bikes i lusted after in my youth- steel, lugged, italian frames. i'm not a racer, i just like to ride- and an old-school but modern frame is more my style.

at the LBS, i spied a cinelli supercorsa and a mondonoco futura leggero in my size in the back. the owner is an ex-pro racer from the 70's-80's, and definitely one of the weirdo-types that i love when it comes to bikes. it's a small, messy, bike shop with odd-ball frames, track-stuff, lot's of wheels ready to be hand-built, and other bits laying about- not your average "starbucks-type" shop.

the cinelli supercorsa is from 2003 and was for a customer who had a chorus head-set installed, but then bailed on it and bought something more modern. the mondonico is a frame that has been sitting since 2002, and is an antonio mondonico hand-built frame. both are made from columbus neuron tubing and either are available to me at a similar price. i'm going to have them do a few of the things that i can't do (bottom bracket, etc), and the rest, i'm going to attempt to do myself. it's a nice project for me over the winter.

the question is- which one should i buy? i know i should get both :) , but finances say that only one will come home with me.


:)

If they are 56cm, buy the Mondonoco and give me the LBS phone number so I can buy the Cinelli. :)

They are as different as day and night. What type of riding do you plan on doing? Do both come with the original forks?

After you decide which you want, tell us the size of the frames and location of the LBS.

If it's a 54, buy the Cinelli and let me have the Mondonico (I already have a Cinelli!):D

Don't know anything about the Mondonico, but I don't think you can go wrong with a Cinelli.

Personally I would buy the Mondonico. They are on par with Tommasinis and other legendary Italian frames. Is is a size 57? If so, let me know if you don't buy it.

I'd rather have the Mondonico over a new(ish) Cinelli. Not that there's anything
wrong with the Cinelli, but when I do buy one it's going to be a proper late 60's early 70's
model (which I'm going to sacrifice my kid's inheritance for).
shop sounds like a winner, and yes we do want to know where it is!

As for your being older than most ( late 30's) you'll be pleasantly surprized to know the
avg age for this forum is probably mid 40s.

marty

Buy the one you think is prettier. I'm not trying to be flippant, I really believe that would be the only big diffrence between the two.

If the Mondonico was truly built by the man himself (which I kind of doubt) the work should be nicer than the production shop Cinelli. But there's nothing really wrong with those Cinelli's and the ride incredibly well. I can't see either being a bad choice.

Too bad the shop does not have a Gios Compact Pro to add to the mix, as I would take that over the other two.

as one that loves his cinellis, i'd say jump on the mondonico. that bike has greater exclusivity and should only gain in value with time. afaik, mondonico was the very last of the italian builders that pinned his lugwork in the classic tradition & there won't be any more

A 2002 Mondonico would be built by Antonio, I'm fairly sure. It should be easy enough to find out.

Buy the one you think is prettier. I'm not trying to be flippant, I really believe that would be the only big diffrence between the two.


yes, i was thinking that there might not be much separating the 2 when it comes down to ride quality, and looks might be a deciding factor- though the mondonico is a hand-made special, and that has an obvious draw. the cinelli is a bright red, which i usually don't like, but the lugs are chromed, which i do like. decisions...




A 2002 Mondonico would be built by Antonio, I'm fairly sure. It should be easy enough to find out.

how does one find out? does the serial number on the bottom bracket tell the tale?



They are as different as day and night. What type of riding do you plan on doing? Do both come with the original forks?

After you decide which you want, tell us the size of the frames and location of the LBS.

If it's a 54, buy the Cinelli and let me have the Mondonico (I already have a Cinelli!):D


the bikes both have their original forks, and the cinelli's is already mounted with a chorus head-set. i'm challenged in the height department at 5-7- both frames are 52's. can you elaborate when you say that they are as different as night and day?

as for my riding, i usually ride 3 times during the week to get my engine going in the morning, usually about 20 miles. then on weekends, i like to do anywhere from 30 - 50 mile runs- some hills, and certainly bad roads abound! i've been riding a single speed that i purchased as a commute bike, but now i'm getting into road biking again- i was an avid rider 15 years ago.

i'll let everyone know what i decide and the other will be up for grabs :) i should make a decision by the weekend and i'll be back with the usual stupid questions of how i should build it!

thanks all!


:)

Don't know anything about the Mondonico, but I don't think you can go wrong with a Cinelli.

I know something about Mondonicos: you can't go wrong with one of them!

Road Fan

yes, i was thinking that there might not be much separating the 2 when it comes down to ride quality, and looks might be a deciding factor- though the mondonico is a hand-made special, and that has an obvious draw. the cinelli is a bright red, which i usually don't like, but the lugs are chromed, which i do like. decisions...

the handling is quite different between a mondonico and a cinelli supercorsa, with the cinelli a touch on the pointy/quick side of neutral and the mondonico's more relaxed and having a longer cockpit




how does one find out? does the serial number on the bottom bracket tell the tale?"

Mondonico is/was a completely family owned and operated business and afaik, up until his recent retirement, did not contract out any of his work.
His only production assistance comes from his son, Mauro.
As I understand it, the very latest Mondonico's are now being fabricated by a well respected contract framebuilder in/near Milan under Mauro's supervision & QC during the transition.
You can contact Bill Mc Gann at Torelli Imports if you have any questions about Mondonico and the frame's specifics.

As for your being older than most ( late 30's) you'll be pleasantly surprized to know the
avg age for this forum is probably mid 40s.

marty


Avast there, ye whippersnapper!

Oops, pirate day is long past ar ar ar.

Rrrroad Fan

yes, i was thinking that there might not be much separating the 2 when it comes down to ride quality, and looks might be a deciding factor- though the mondonico is a hand-made special, and that has an obvious draw. the cinelli is a bright red, which i usually don't like, but the lugs are chromed, which i do like. decisions...





how does one find out? does the serial number on the bottom bracket tell the tale?





the bikes both have their original forks, and the cinelli's is already mounted with a chorus head-set. i'm challenged in the height department at 5-7- both frames are 52's. can you elaborate when you say that they are as different as night and day?

as for my riding, i usually ride 3 times during the week to get my engine going in the morning, usually about 20 miles. then on weekends, i like to do anywhere from 30 - 50 mile runs- some hills, and certainly bad roads abound! i've been riding a single speed that i purchased as a commute bike, but now i'm getting into road biking again- i was an avid rider 15 years ago.

i'll let everyone know what i decide and the other will be up for grabs :) i should make a decision by the weekend and i'll be back with the usual stupid questions of how i should build it!

thanks all!


:)

Recently I googled Mondonico, and found a lot of history notes. I think the stories will make clear that either Antonio or Mauro did the brazing. Mine is from the late '70s to early '80s, when Antonio re-started the family business (Cicli Mondonico) and left Guerciotti, and started teaching Mauro.

Seems simpler than Masi, at least!

Does your example have an S/N? Mine does not, just a size stamp.

Torelli was the importer and may still be able to use the name - ask them?

Road Fan

the handling is quite different between a mondonico and a cinelli supercorsa, with the cinelli a touch on the pointy/quick side of neutral and the mondonico's more relaxed and having a longer cockpit



Than tears it, you need to buy the Cinelli IMMEDIATELY and leave me to properly dispose of that slow, dangerous Mondonico!

Road Fan

Of course, you know what any of these guys would do? They'd buy 'em both, and then lord it over the rest of us with some snazzy pictures...and a lot of gloating...

caterham is spot on as far as the differences between the two go. Road Fan rides a Mondonico most of the time. Follow caterham's advice and contact the importer, if it's that important to you. I think those who are knowledgeable would agree that the Mondo is hand built by one of two people, both Master builders.

From your description of what you want, I'd say go with the Mondonico.

If you want a quick handling , sporty feel, the Cinelli is a better bet, and I'm sure Road Fan would snap up the discards.

Buy both, and see which suits you better. You won't lose on that investment!

... i'm a bit older than most (late 30's) ...

You're just a kid! :)

I would vote for the Mondonico, because I, too, am more interested in a smooth, stable ride than in bottom bracket stomping stiffness. Having said that, I also note that I really enjoy the contrast between my Bianchi and my Capo, and I am glad to have both in my fleet.

Totally hearsay but the way I understand it, both Mauro and Antonio each have all the necessary skills to construct complete framesets but that Mauro generally does the mitering, machine prep and finishwork with Antonio handling the jigs & torch.

btw- by "more relaxed", I mean relaxed relative to the cinelli. neither could be categorised as being either nervous & twitchy nor sluggish & sonambulant handling machines

Wow as usual what interesting bunch of muck!! I agree with Luker don't give anybody an idea where the the transaction will take place or they'll buy both out from under you. It happen just recently to me here on the boards.

I am just finishing up a Cinelli project a 1995 Genius tube set - even though stamped a 55 it's really closer to a 56 so measure both frames. Also check the angle I suspect the Cinelli is more aggresive and last check out the fork clearance for tire sizes. I usually ride 25 or 28, but once I got the bike built up I found 23's were the largest the fork would take although the rear would take either. So it turns out it's a real racing machine.

As I think someone already stated Cinelli ontracts out some frame building so not all frame are equal so really go over the frame.
Just my two cents

I read somewhere that Masi contracted out to Mondonico in the past ?

I read somewhere that Masi contracted out to Mondonico in the past ?

correct. Antonio Mondonico has been producing the Italian-built Masi's since approx. 1990

Of course, you know what any of these guys would do? They'd buy 'em both, and then lord it over the rest of us with some snazzy pictures...and a lot of gloating...

interesting idea...


;)

Mondonico frames were actually hand-made by the man himself until his retirement (a couple or three years ago). I believe the Cinelli (along with most other made in Italy frames) are made in a 'carousel' manner, where individual parts or sub-assemblies are made by hand and then assembled by a single person at the end.
As unique and as desirable a Cinelli is, the Mondonico is really the only way to go...

My vote would be for the Modonico as well. I'm very partial to single (or at least small)-builder Italian frames.

...I usually ride 25 or 28, but once I got the bike built up I found 23's were the largest the fork would take although the rear would take either. .
Just my two cents

23's are huge, dude!

Luker,
Luker,

I am cross country tourer and a tandem rider and 23 is a skinny winney. The skinnest tire on any my three Waterfords including my rs22 is a 25 and my P15 is a 28 and my Adventure Cycle are 32 - you don't even want to know the spoke count on some of these babies. So now I have a true racing frame.

As for your being older than most ( late 30's) you'll be pleasantly surprized to know the
avg age for this forum is probably mid 40s.

marty

I'm 49 and always thought I was one of the youngsters around here. :D

Tim

Get the mondonico if you haven't already. I have 3, and a rebadged one as a Torelli yet to be build. If you're average proportions, medium flexibility, the 52 ought to be ok for 5'7", maybe slightly longish on the TT. I'm 5'9" very inflexible, ride 52cm and 53cm, love them all.

upon further investigation, i found that i was wrong about the frame sizes. the mondonico is slightly smaller than the cinelli. i feel like the cinelli might be a hair too big for me, and the mondonico might be a better fit- if a tad small.

the mondonico frame dimensions are as follows-

top tube 52cm

seat tube 49cm


the cinelli-

top tube- 53cm

seat tube 53cm

now i'm 5-7, but i have somewhat shortish legs. my inseam is 30 on a good day :D but i'm pretty flexible and i'm in very good shape. lot's of running and riding my single speed a few times a week.

which do you think would fit better? i know that this isn't a an exact science when asked on a message board, but it might give me some idea.



:)

Really, I think you're lucky in the fact that you have the pick of two great bikes. I mean, whats not to love about either of them. Both are built with Columbus tubes by two legendary Italian names, and most anybody on the C &V forums can tell you where Columbus stands in the frames material hiarchy.

You could'nt go wrong with either. Both are great bikes. :D

......but if it was me, I'd go for the Mondonico.

upon further investigation, i found that i was wrong about the frame sizes. the mondonico is slightly smaller than the cinelli. i feel like the cinelli might be a hair too big for me, and the mondonico might be a better fit- if a tad small.


:)

hmmm... seems like you'd optimally ride a 51/52 - the 49 mondonico could work but you'd have a lot of seatpost showing, an approx 110-120 stem and fortunately with quill stems, you could make up partially for the short steerer tube length.I'd choose a saddle that has an above average saddle to rail height, a seatpost with approx 25 mm setback and bars having a longer reach/short to med drop

the 53 cinelli on the other hand, would appear to have an near ideal toptube length/reach with an approx 100 stem & med reach/short drop bars- i'd ask to take it out for another ride first- if it's not uncomfortably tight on standover,it could just be the setup and reconfigured for your specifics

For example, I'm 5-6, have an average torso/leg length and normally ride a 49 or 50 (dependant on btm bkt height and toptube) with a 100 stem (approx 52 TT) and short reach/drop bars. errr.. hmmmmm...
oh yeah.... nevermind....forget what i just said...

what was the telephone number of the dealer? as a favor to you, maybe i could do a little consultation with him on mondonico sizing:D

best,
k

That caterham,

Always looking out for the other fellow!

His advice is usually spot on(except when valuing used SLX Guerciottis;)), and it would appear that the Cinelli would be a better fit, especially with its shorter top tube, as compared to the Mondonico. Of course, he has a couple of Cinelli's already and the Mondonico would appear to be right about his size... maybe you should give him the dealer's number, 'twould be a shame to see the Mondonico gather more dust.

upon further investigation, i found that i was wrong about the frame sizes. the mondonico is slightly smaller than the cinelli. i feel like the cinelli might be a hair too big for me, and the mondonico might be a better fit- if a tad small.

the mondonico frame dimensions are as follows-

top tube 52cm

seat tube 49cm

the cinelli-

top tube- 53cm

seat tube 53cm

now i'm 5-7, but i have somewhat shortish legs. my inseam is 30 on a good day :D but i'm pretty flexible and i'm in very good shape. lot's of running and riding my single speed a few times a week.

which do you think would fit better? i know that this isn't a an exact science when asked on a message board, but it might give me some idea.



:)

My early Mondonico measures 52 cm c-c, and is marked with a "52" on the BB. It's a little tall for that spec, but the seat tube angle is rather upright, around 75 degrees. To estimate your frame size traditionally, you need to measure your cycling inseam, the old shove the book into your crotch while barefoot against the wall thing.

That still doesn't help you estimate your standover height requirements.

Luckily for all the rest of you, that Mondo is way too small for me!

Road Fan

i navigated over to the competitive cyclist fit calculator, and plugged all the numbers in, and the result said for a "competitive fit", go for the mondonico, for a "french fit", go for the cinelli. hmmm

today, i received a nice check from 2 of my employers, a bit more than i was expecting, so i treated myself to a indulgent christmas present and bought both frames! i'm going to take them both down to my LBS, get fitted, then decide which one i should keep, or maybe i just keep them both. if i decide to sell one, i'm sure i won't lose any money. i should at least break even or come close.

i'll try to keep everyone updated (if anyones interested) with my progress on my build with pictures as this is going to be my first build.

thanks all for you advice, and encouragement!

:)

i navigated over to the competitive cyclist fit calculator, and plugged all the numbers in, and the result said for a "competitive fit", go for the mondonico, for a "french fit", go for the cinelli. hmmm

today, i received a nice check from 2 of my employers, a bit more than i was expecting, so i treated myself to a indulgent christmas present and bought both frames! i'm going to take them both down to my LBS, get fitted, then decide which one i should keep, or maybe i just keep them both. if i decide to sell one, i'm sure i won't lose any money. i should at least break even or come close.

i'll try to keep everyone updated (if anyones interested) with my progress on my build with pictures as this is going to be my first build.

thanks all for you advice, and encouragement!

:)

Congratulations! That was the best move you could have made.

Please post pictures of the frames and build progress.

, so i treated myself to a indulgent christmas present and bought both frames!



merry christmas


k

thanks caterham and OFG- thursday is my fitting, and the shop has agreed to "teach" me how to do a build. i'm very excited for this winter project!

happy holidays!

I'm confused. When you guys say Mondonico built the bike, I always imagined a little factory, with a couple dozen people there churning out bikes like Christmas elves. You know, like an Italian Atalier. I didn't really think he actually worked on the bikes. So, if I have an early 80's Mondonico, what was he likely to have done himself? I did read somewhere that he personally picked out the tubing, I think?

Edit: Sorry, I read further and now I understand that these are truly handmade bikes. But wasn't there a time period when they had higher production numbers and were made in a factory? I just assumed I had a factory one, but I guess the lack of serial number and the gazillion makers imprints on the bike make more sense now.

I'm confused. When you guys say Mondonico built the bike, I always imagined a little factory, with a couple dozen people there churning out bikes like Christmas elves. You know, like an Italian Atalier. I didn't really think he actually worked on the bikes. So, if I have an early 80's Mondonico, what was he likely to have done himself? I did read somewhere that he personally picked out the tubing, I think?

Edit: Sorry, I read further and now I understand that these are truly handmade bikes. But wasn't there a time period when they had higher production numbers and were made in a factory? I just assumed I had a factory one, but I guess the lack of serial number and the gazillion makers imprints on the bike make more sense now.

Hi, Solveg!

This link http://www.torelli.com/mondonico/mndnico.html to Mondonico history on the Torelli site says that Antonio restarted the family shop in 1979, so your bike and mine are from his first few years. I think there's no chance anyone else built them.

Road Fan

Totally hearsay but the way I understand it, both Mauro and Antonio each have all the necessary skills to construct complete framesets but that Mauro generally does the mitering, machine prep and finishwork with Antonio handling the jigs & torch.

btw- by "more relaxed", I mean relaxed relative to the cinelli. neither could be categorised as being either nervous & twitchy nor sluggish & sonambulant handling machines

pretty much the way I understand it. Mauro, I'm sure, could build up a frame that would be almost as good as the work his father does, and actually might do a bit more, like building up bunches of rear triangles, or something. But AFAIK, Antonio usually does the construction, while Mauro, as you say, preps everything, does the brazeons and filing work, and the overall finish work before it's ready for painting.

Being the owner of two of them, I say go with the Mondonico. At the very least, the paint will be better than the Cinelli. Although I'd love to have a Supercorsa as well.

edit: I see you bought both. good call. perhaps the Cinelli will fit better, and after all, fit is everything. And what color is the Mondonico?

As for Mondonico, there was a period in the early '80's where he entered into partnership with Paolo Guerciotti, and oversaw production of Guerciotti frames at the Guerciotti factory, maybe a few thousand frames a year. It's quite possible that Mondonico frames from that time came out of the same plant, or he still could have been building them himself on his own time, I don't know for certain.

I do know that their partnership ended amicably, as Antonio's true passion was building frames by hand one at a time in smaller numbers, and so he went back to doing so, out of the shop behind his house. As far as I know, Mondonico would build something like 600-800 frames per year, all out of his little shop, all made entirely by hand by himself and later, with help from Mauro.

hi rufus-

the mondnico is a darkish-blue with yellow lettering. i do believe that it is a antonio mondonico frame. i e-mailed chairman bill at torelli, and gave him the serial numbers on the bottom bracket. he wrote that the frame is from 2003, and is a custom made frame, not a size that they keep in stock.

i felt the tubing on the bottom bracket and i could feel the pins used that mondonico is famous for :)

now i'm going to get sized up, and see which one i should build!

now should i go full chorus or record...

and gave him the serial numbers on the bottom bracket.

Hey! He got serial numbers! I didn't....

I have a 1969 Cinelli Supercoursa that was my gold standard for ride quality (and still is). I tried many different frames including a Titanium and a Carbon one (both high quality). I purchased a 2005 Moltini Orange Mondonico built by Antonio. I had been lusting after the bike for a long time and finally made the plunge. The bike is a Mondonico Diamond Extra Lugged bike made with Columbus Neuron tubing. I purchased a steel fork as well. I am very glad I went back to steel. No more numb hands and the bike feels much more stable on rapid descents. I still ride the Cinelli occasionally when I want to harken back to my earlier riding days but, 10 speed, Ergo shifters,... much improved.
Either the Cinelli and/or the Mondonico would be terrific. I am very happy with my Mondonico. Built up with a Record group and conventional 3X wheels (open pro and/or DT Swiss RR1.1 rims the bike is slightly less than 18 lbs. You can't go wrong with either.

Hey! He got serial numbers! I didn't....

Me neither!

i've decided to build up the mondonico as it's a slightly better fit and somewhat more desirable. to fund the build, i am going to sell the cinelli- but not before i take a few pictures.

enjoy!



http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/9884/c101307006ec2.jpg


http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=c101307006ec2.jpg


http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2486/a101307039ek2.jpg


http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/1732/a101307021pk7.jpg



















hmmm they showed up before... very strange.

Pics not coming thru for me:-(

BF is a little slow at the moment. Give it some time and I bet the photo's show up.

marty

Well, DANG! He outlined them so we couldn't examine the background for interesting things!

Well, DANG! He outlined them so we couldn't examine the background for interesting things!

lol sorry- i shot them in the studio. when i start my build, i promise not to post such clean pics. my hallway is usually messy enough to spot some interesting items.




here are some more in a style you might prefer- though still, not much is in the backround...


http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6203/dsc04391copykb4.jpg




http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5525/dsc04389wb5.jpg