Electric Bikes - BionX vs. Crystalyte operation

This is probably going to become self-evident once I have ridden both types, but I hope someone can describe the difference in operation. I have never even SEEN an ebike and would have to burn 6-10+ gallons of gas to do so. I'm interested in pedal-assist mainly to help me up some local hills pulling a trailer with a recumbent. Here's my understanding of how it works.

With the BionX system, I can set how much pedal-assist I want, the system will sense when I am having to pedal harder than I want to pedal, and will mix in enough power from the motor to bring me to the level of assist I selected.

With a Crystalyte system, I'm a little confused. Some "throttles" seem to just be on/off switches. Is that true? If that is the case, how do I use it for pedal-assist? Do I just turn it on and reduce my own pedalling or even stop pedaling if it goes too fast? Seems like I would be doing a lot of switching on and off.

Other throttles seem to be more proportional like a motorcycle throttle or a potentiometer. In that case, can I just crank in enough power to ease my pedaling effort to a level I am comfortable with? That would make it, more or less, a manual version of the BionX system.

I am leaning towards the Crystalyte systems, obviously because of price. But I've bought enough crap through the years on price that required me to buy TWICE instead of just a little more ONCE so I want to make sure the decision is sensible. I'm also leaning towards the Crystalyte systems because of simplicity. The more sophisticated BionX controller with regen braking and all that means more proprietary things to go wrong and no dealer nearby.

I fly electric RC airplanes with brushless motors and lipo batteries and have 50 years of experience in electronics, so maintaining the Crystalyte system myself is not a problem. I just want to make sure that in actual operation, it is going to do what I need.

Eric

if you believe several of the crystalyte users over at the endless-sphere.com forums, crystalyte's quality is superb. Those guys say if you buy their high-powered controllers, the 40x series motors are actually strong enough for something like 2000 watts (~3 horsepower) of power.

The throttles work just like you expect a throttle to work-- by changing the position of the throttle you can get any desired percentage of the motor's full power.

Due to the throttle, you get to decide whether or not you want to pedal at all if you have a standard crystalyte setup.

Thanks, Cerewa. I was hoping that's how it would work. All that proprietary microprocessor controlled gee whiz stuff in the BionX worries me. It's great when it's working. It's not so great when it inevitably fails. Given the price of the Crystalyte kits, I can afford to have a spare controller around, and I can make up my own battery packs.

Eric

Eric, Cerewa is accurate on the throttle. Its not just on/off, its variable, just like that you would get on a motorcycle.

As far as maintenance is concerned, if you don't abuse the system (indecent weather exposure, careless overvolting, bombing off big objects), Crystalyte and BionX need exactly:
Nothing.

Seriously. The system is entirely self contained and aside from the typical cleaning and care you'd do for a normal wheel, brushless hub motors need absolutely nothing, and won't suffer from neglect at all. You know, don't do anything silly like letting your axle rust, but they don't need to be babied, which is nice.

And as for a comparison between the two, well..

Crystalyte isn't crap, so I wouldn't worry about that being a concern. Their systems are of excellent reliability and good performance. They aren't light weight or flashy, and don't come with extras. These are workhorses, they do the one thing, they do it well. Not likely to break down, but if they do, Crystalyte is very open to modification, repair, and parts replacement - and parts can be found *quite* easily. This is an excellent choice if the weight isn't going to get you down.

BionX kits are considerably lighter, some of them weigh in *total* what the hub on the Crystalyte does alone. They're also quite fully featured, as you've probably noticed. They perform well, pedal assist is nice, and the kits are of a very polished feel. However, the parts are all proprietary, including the battery packs and such.

I appreciate the comments from both of you. I mentioned to you in another thread that I want to put a front hub motor on my RANS V2. But a couple of things have changed that. One, I have decided to sell the V2. Second, my mom recently broke her hip. She is 85 and an avid walker. Up until recently, she walked 2 miles a day. She also has a neurological disease that makes it difficult for her to feel her feet so she tends to trip at times since she can't tell if she has lifted her foot enough to clear variations in her path. She lives in a retirement community that is dead flat. So I'm thinking an electrified adult trike would be a good way for her to get around and get some needed exercise, but have the motor assist as well. So that is probably going to be the project bike instead of the V2. All the same requirements and needs are still pretty much the same, though the specs will differ a little since the front wheel will be larger. And if she doesn't like it, I'll keep it as a grocery hauler!

Thanks again, both of you, for the valuable information.

Eric

Crystalyte isn't crap... Their systems are of excellent reliability and good performance. .... Crystalyte is very open to modification, repair, and parts replacement - and parts can be found *quite* easily. This is an excellent choice if the weight isn't going to get you down.

I know this is a two-year-old thread... but maybe at least some people are getting email notifications of new posts.

BionX vs Crystalyte sounds a little like MacIntosh vs generic PC: One is an elegant-but-highly-proprietary device, while the other can be cobbled together from many possible combinations of third-party parts.

Does anybody know if there is an "Assist-Capable" controller for Crystalyte - a-la BionX? I'm guessing that would presuppose some sort of torque sensor in the Cystalyte hub.

Yes, there is a pedelec sensor for Crystalyte, which detects pedalling. As I recall, it installs around the crank, and is Hall sensor based, and probably seems just like a normal Hall throttle to the Crystalyte controller...

Eric, Cerewa is accurate on the throttle. Its not just on/off, its variable, just like that you would get on a motorcycle.

As far as maintenance is concerned, if you don't abuse the system (indecent weather exposure, careless overvolting, bombing off big objects), Crystalyte and BionX need exactly:
Nothing.



The reason I got BionX is I ride in all weather including flooded roads and blizzards, and the Cannucks highly recommended the BionX's weather versatility. So far we've had one flood, and several snow storms and the machine is still purring away. I can definitely vouch for the fact the the BionX motor is very well sealed, but we also bought ours off of Craiglist for $500 off of the MSRP which helped in the price department. If you want all-weather pedal assist, BionX is the way to go, if you want an electric vehicle that can be customized Crystalite is the way to go. I guess it really comes down how you want to use your bike.

I've heard plenty of hub motors are sealed better now than perhaps they were a couple of years ago. For example, Amped tests their kits IN WATER. They still run, as does mine. Not sure I'd trust all Chinese kits (Golden Motor? Clyte? I honestly don't have experience, though). I wasn't sure I'd like the thumb throttle at first, thinking Bionx was the way to go, but in the slippery snow I like being able to simply release my thumb if I'm afraid it would give too much power. Think of the throttle as a manual version of Bionx.

There's an interesting electric bicycle market video from Interbike09 that includes some discussion on the pedal-vs-throttle question. (It's linked at http://electriccyclist.com/interbike-2009-electric-bicycle-market-discussion.)

In that video, Ed Benjamin makes the argument that many experienced cyclists "get" controlling the speed of their bikes with their feet because it's what they're already used to doing. Of course, many experienced cyclists will prefer throttles anyway, but he suggests that for potential users who are not experienced cyclists the throttle may indeed be an easier thing to learn.

For the record, the (optional) Bionx throttle is indeed an all-or-nothing affair. Then again, Bionx users tend to mostly control their speed with their feet, and the proportional pedal assist on Bionx is a joy to use. Unless I'm mistaken, most other pedal-activated systems lack the level of finess that Bionx brings to theirs. (Then again, they lack the Bionx price tag too.)

Charlie Richman
http://ElectricCyclist.com

There's an interesting electric bicycle market video from Interbike09 that includes some discussion on the pedal-vs-throttle question. (It's linked at http://electriccyclist.com/interbike-2009-electric-bicycle-market-discussion.)

In that video, Ed Benjamin makes the argument that many experienced cyclists "get" controlling the speed of their bikes with their feet because it's what they're already used to doing. Of course, many experienced cyclists will prefer throttles anyway, but he suggests that for potential users who are not experienced cyclists the throttle may indeed be an easier thing to learn.

For the record, the (optional) Bionx throttle is indeed an all-or-nothing affair. Then again, Bionx users tend to mostly control their speed with their feet, and the proportional pedal assist on Bionx is a joy to use. Unless I'm mistaken, most other pedal-activated systems lack the level of finess that Bionx brings to theirs. (Then again, they lack the Bionx price tag too.)

Charlie Richman
http://ElectricCyclist.com

As a BionX system owner I can reliably report the BionX Pl-350 system throttle is NOT an "all or nothing affair." It offers variable power according to how far the throttle lever is pushed.

Having the pedal torque sensor plus the throttle makes a great combination. I have changed my settings so the throttle works from 0 kph. This is very handy for accelerating away after a dead stop such as a stop sign or a set of lights. After a few solid pedal strokes I stop using the throttle and just pedal. This usually makes me faster than most all traffic across the intersection. It's rather fun and takes traffic by suprise.

The throttle is also very handy when you are going through a corner too sharp to continue pedaling through. In those situations I will use the throttle to continue powering the rear wheel allowing me to maintain a higher speed through the corner.

Your's in cycling electric or otherwise,

LesMcLuffAlot

I wasn't sure I'd like the thumb throttle at first, thinking Bionx was the way to go, but in the slippery snow I like being able to simply release my thumb if I'm afraid it would give too much power. Think of the throttle as a manual version of Bionx. Sounds like there might be a safety issue there too. I've read two accounts so far of BionX users having their motors go full-throttle after hopping off of a curb.

When you are pedaling along with thumb on the throttle, are you able go easily maintain a constant level of assist? Or does it go up and down slightly as your thumb pressure involuntarily changes slightly with the motion of pedaling?

As a BionX system owner I can reliably report the BionX Pl-350 system throttle is NOT an "all or nothing affair." It offers variable power according to how far the throttle lever is pushed.

LesMcLuffAlot

Are you using one of the new 2009 systems?

I've been wrong before, but I'm fairly confident that the magnet-operated throttle switch on my 2008 PL350 is either on or it's not.
(Of course, I rarely use the throttle so it's possible that I missed something...)

Regards,

Charlie
http://ElectricCyclist.com

When you are pedaling along with thumb on the throttle, are you able go easily maintain a constant level of assist? Or does it go up and down slightly as your thumb pressure involuntarily changes slightly with the motion of pedaling?

As I cruise along, I have the throttle jammed all the way on. I provide whatever assistance I want beyond that. Going up hills I apply more, going down hills I stop pedaling but leave the throttle on (depending on steepness, sometimes I have to take throttle off to prevent drag).

I hear that Bionx is a more fluid ride, since it has a very expensive torque sensor involved. Eh, I just ride. Usual speed is around 22-23ish with not exhausting pedaling involved, on flats. I really don't notice a change in my personal power output any more than I would on my road bike. I pedal harder on my ride home to get more of a work out.

Bionix is probably considered to be more legal (PL350) than the Crystalyte setup (in Ontario anyways) due to the speed limitations built into the Bionix and the company logo showing prominantly on the battery, two things that are required to operate an electric bike in this province. The crystalyte, which is what i have, can go up to some ridiculous speeds since it can handle voltage from as low as 24 volts all the way up to 100 volts (408 crystalite) , all depending on what controller and battery setup you decide to slap on. :thumb:

24 volts all the way up to 100 volts (408 crystalite) , all depending on what controller and battery setup you decide to slap on. :thumb:

Try putting that much voltage on a Crystalyte X5304, with 40Amps. Ridiculous speeds...that's an understatement.:lol:

But yeah...at 100V...the controller will blow up before the 408 magnets melt. And try to keep the speed down on your set-up, one guy had a 408 and 72V and the motor broke down because the magnets fell off.

As a BionX system owner I can reliably report the BionX Pl-350 system throttle is NOT an "all or nothing affair." It offers variable power according to how far the throttle lever is pushed.

Sigh. You are completely correct, and I was flat wrong. The PL-350 that we both like does in fact have a proportional throttle -- I just use my throttle so seldom that I didn't notice. In fact, I virtually never use it except for an occasional safety-related burst of speed, and then I tend to use all of it.

Charlie
http://ElectricCyclist.com

I was looking into a Trek eclectic bike which has an BionX system. The Trek BionX system does not come with the throttle option. I currently have a Currie 450W electric kit which uses a throttle. Since I ride 20 to 30 mile daily. My concern is not having a throttle by red lights. How does the BionX pedal assist work from a full stop and do you think I could get away with out the throttle?

I was looking into a Trek eclectic bike which has an BionX system. The Trek BionX system does not come with the throttle option. I currently have a Currie 450W electric kit which uses a throttle. Since I ride 20 to 30 mile daily. My concern is not having a throttle by red lights. How does the BionX pedal assist work from a full stop and do you think I could get away with out the throttle?

First, call your state senator and tell them to pass the Electric Assistance Bike law (S4014). They aren't legal yet in NY. And I'm also in NYC and looking at the Bionx PL350 or the new Trek Valencia +. But I haven't actually SEEN any of the new Treks. Have you? They're also very expensive so I'm now leaning towards just getting the PL350 kit and putting it on my old Trek 7100. Now for my question: why would starting from red lights (even without the assist) be a problem? I start from red lights all the time without power on a regular bike. Doesn't the assist kick in soon anyway? I'm planning on riding this without the assist on much of the time anyway. I really only plan on using the assist on some annoying hills, like the Queensboro Bridge.

I admit to not stopping at many red lights anyway. Most of the time I slowly proceed through them or try to time my hitting them until they turn green. Or just circle in place. TRACK STAND!

. My concern is not having a throttle by red lights. How does the BionX pedal assist work from a full stop and do you think I could get away with out the throttle?

While I don't know if Bionx has tweaked their firmware for the version they OEM to Trek in any important way, I can assure you that the Bionx experience without a throttle is a delight. (I don't use my throttle when pulling away from a stop at all.) By default there is no assist from either the throttle or the pedal assist sensor until you get rolling (at 3 kph?) As soon as you do get rolling at all, a smooth rush of power flows in. It's a seamless experience, and you can control how aggressively it kicks in with the power assist setting. With the Bionx-branded unit at least, it is possible to alter the operation of the unit with the appropriate code (at risk of violating your warranty) to have both the throttle and the pedal sensor operate from a dead stop. For those of us with knee issues, that can be a really great thing.

Charlie
http://ElectricCyclist.com

For those of us with knee issues, that can be a really great thing.

Charlie
http://ElectricCyclist.com

I'm getting towards knee issues myself. Every once in a while I do something to my right knee which causes me to avoid biking for a few days. And I have never been able to get any kind of SPD setup comfortable so I use platform pedals. I don't know what it is but if my feet are bolted to the pedals (and I've tried every adjustment under the sun including just using Power Grips), the right knee in particular starts hurting and just gets worse until I stop using them. It's one of the reasons that I'm getting an Ebike.

I'm getting towards knee issues myself. Every once in a while I do something to my right knee which causes me to avoid biking for a few days. And I have never been able to get any kind of SPD setup comfortable so I use platform pedals.
That part of your post could have been written by Yours Truly. Same knee, even.

But I reverted to using BMX flats years and years ago (wide hips/Q factor... they just work better for me...).

If you ever find out what's happening, I'd really like to know. With mine, it's swelling/pain somewhere in the kneecap, not within the knee and it can come/go very rapidly. e.g. Couple weeks ago I did 18 miles to Ikea, found it swollen painful when I stopped for lunch there. Sat with the knee straight while eating, was careful on the ride home (and used a lot more assist than usual) and by that evening the swelling was 95% gone and the pain likewise.

Weird...

That part of your post could have been written by Yours Truly. Same knee, even.

But I reverted to using BMX flats years and years ago (wide hips/Q factor... they just work better for me...).

If you ever find out what's happening, I'd really like to know. With mine, it's swelling/pain somewhere in the kneecap, not within the knee and it can come/go very rapidly. e.g. Couple weeks ago I did 18 miles to Ikea, found it swollen painful when I stopped for lunch there. Sat with the knee straight while eating, was careful on the ride home (and used a lot more assist than usual) and by that evening the swelling was 95% gone and the pain likewise.

Weird...

I've thought that it's because I broke my right ankle around 13 years ago - on a mountain bike on a mountain. That was on July 4th. The ankle needed surgery and the x-rays also showed a crack near the knee as well. The surgeon said that it was normal for the bone up there to crack when the ankle breaks like I did it. Since it seems to ache sort of on the side of the knee that faces the other knee, and that was where the crack was, I just figured that must be the reason. But I have no verification that is true. We might just be built funny.

The surgeon also mentioned that I really shouldn't do that again. I was still a bit groggy from the anesthesia when he said that so I'm not sure if he was referring to breaking the ankle or riding a mountain bike on a mountain, but I have avoided doing either.

ease note I am an elecronic tech with over 20 years experience in the field and second line repair.
First I bought the BIONX system in March 2008, due to the Pedal on Demand and Regen.
Pedal on demand was great, loved it. BUT NOW I LOVE THE CRUISE CONTROL MORE.
The regen was a waste of time, it takes about 1km of flat pedaling to add 1% back, without affecting the forward speed too much. Braking with it was great though, just like gearing down.
Never used the throttle (It stopped working a few months after I got it, but I didn't use it or need it.
Early the next summer (2009) I wanted to add a standalone CycleAnalyst to monitor my battery usage.
check it out, it tell you eveything you could want to know.
I 'screwed up' and crossed the wires letting the smoke out of the controller. Not the first time won't be the last. I was rushed, my fault, me stupid.
No sweat right just send me a new one!!!!!!!
I finally got a dealer (yes they do know what they are doing with EV's, and I even sent picture) and they ordered me the part. It has now been a total of 6 weeks broken when the part arrived. The WRONG PART was shipped by BIONX (handle bar controller). It took my dealer 3 days to get ahold of BIONX on the phone.
BIONX (through my dealer cause they won't talk to you direct) told me I had to pack up the Battery and controller and ship it to them for repair. $40 service fee + $120 for controller Plus my dealers cost and shipping/handling, etc etc. Repair time UNKNOWN.
Most of my summer was shot just trying to find someone in my area who dealt with BIONX.
SPECIAL NOTE : BIONX will not allow you to change battery packs, they are hard wired to the contoller.
By now I am LIVID. Worst support I have seen in over 20 years of dealing with electronic support.

SO: Hello Crystalyte
(I been emailing them for weeks cause I have found lots of complaints about Bionx service on the web and expect the worst.) Both mydealer (Its electric.ca) and the main Crystalyte site for information on their systems. Always had an answer within a day or less. emailing BIONX I was lucky if I got an answer within a few days.
Support was never a problem with Crystalye.
I went with the 5304 (Phoenix Cruiser) motor kit (Biggest Baddest motor made), 48V 10A LiIon Battery, 36V 12A Lead Acid for a spare Battery for long slow runs (20-22Kph avg), Lever throttle.
Addons : Cruise control, CycleAnalyst (connect direct to the contoller), Brake Cut off,
Ordered on Monday, Arrived Friday (NOTE : FULLY BENCH TESTED BEFORE SHIPPING), On the road Saturday.
By mid August I was back on the road. No I was burning up the roads.
I love it, just as good or better than my BIONX.
Both Crystalyte and BIONX start from a dead stop, even the pedal on demand (as far as I could tell)
CRUISE CONTROL - I like it better than the Pedal on demand. It works like a throttle lock, if you want to pedal harder you can. If you want to take a break, go ahead. Has a + - to vary the settings. For safety MUST HAVE THE brake Cut offf installed though (I ain't kidding). If you drop it the wheeel will keep spinning.
CYCLEANALYST - (On most Crystalyte systems it can connect direct to the controller)
Can be used to control the Max Speed (no spedo hookup its regeristed from the wheel on direct hookup).
Can also limit the Current drawn (direct hookup only).
Does need some minor setup but it is simple.
For trips the cycleanalyst tells you by numbers not dots. BIONX is by dots)
Main Page Shows- WATTS being consumed, Speed, Battery Voltage, Distance and Amps used alternate,
Also- Max/Avg Spd, Time in Motion, Watt per Km and tons more.
It also keep track of battery cycles and amps used.
With the 48V battery I can max out around 45Kph, and up a steep hill I peak around 4 hp.
Range - Flat out - 45Kph about 25Km,
City - 32Kph about 50Km
Pedal - 22Kph around 150-200Km of course I am also pedaling at around 120Watts
never done it but with is my calculaltion
With the 2 battery packs= I use The lead Acid to cruise into the City on the Trans Canada Trail (30+km) then switch to the LiIon and set the speed limit to 32 and I Have lots of power to do what I want in the city and return home.

Crystallyte
NOTES: Easy to fix, if it breaks just order a new part, hook it and away we go.
Changing battery packs - just unplug old and plug in new.
THE 5304 WHEEL weighs around 25lbs, so if you take it up/down stairs it's heavy.
MY RECOMENDATION - Crystalyte, simple no fuss no muss, easy to set up with medium bike repair skills.
- Simple to change/ add battery packs.
- Good Support, Simple to replace broken parts (if ever needed).
Get the 48V pack (most controllers are good to 72V) and take of from a stop is smooth and quick.
or use a series 36 V Battery packs (2 of) of Batteries (72V)
you can also Parrellel the 36V for a longer range. (doublish)
SPECIAL NOTE:
Always download the user and installation manual before you buy anything. make sure you can do it or know someone or a shop who will that you trust.

Try putting that much voltage on a Crystalyte X5304, with 40Amps. Ridiculous speeds...that's an understatement.:lol:

But yeah...at 100V...the controller will blow up before the 408 magnets melt. And try to keep the speed down on your set-up, one guy had a 408 and 72V and the motor broke down because the magnets fell off.

I just recently upgraded to a 5304 motor. sweet!