I like my Breezer a great deal. She's been a joy to ride and I'd heartily recommend one as a wonderful utility/commuting/transportation sort of bike. That said, had the LBS that sells Dutch bikes opened a year earlier, I would be riding an Azor Oma, Swan, or Secret Service. There's just something about the upright style that makes riding such a pleasure to me. I've also got a pinched nerve in my shoulder and that gives me problems periodically. While those of you who ride road-style bikes might laugh at this, my Breezer puts me in a more aggressive posture as compared to a Dutch-style bike. I end up with more pressure on my hands, arms, and upper back. That gives me trouble at times.
One of the LBS owners (who sometimes posts here) had mentioned an interest in experimenting with the "Dutchification" of my bike. He was thinking of getting my saddle further back via a seatpost with setback and handlebars with more sweep than what comes standard on the Breezer. I'd been thinking about it and finally decided to try it when Todd told me he had successfully transformed another Breezer. So I asked him to order the parts and stopped by the shop this afternoon to see about getting an appointment or something. To my delight, there was time today for it to be done. :) My handlebars were replaced with a set of Nitto North Roads. Sadly, I had to give up my lovely Thompson seatpost. There's not enough setback on any microadjust seatpost to be able to use one, so now I have a straight pipe-style seatpost with this gadget that gives lots of setback and will take my double rail B-67. I think it's a part used on Brompton folders. In the end, my stem also had to be replaced with one that is shorter.
Riding my bike home was so much fun. :D I'm sure I'll be tweaking it here and there over the next few weeks, but not having my shoulder so affected by my riding is simply heavenly. I'll post some before pictures and of course the after pictures so you can get an idea of the changes.
EDIT: I mixed up Brompton and Bike Friday. :o Fixed now.
Tfahrner also took some "after" pictures of my bike, and I suspect they turned out better than mine. Perhaps he'll post them.
Tom Stormcrowe
12-16-07, 02:13 AM
Very cool! Looks sweet! :D
Tom Stormcrowe
12-16-07, 02:25 AM
By the way, after I graduate, if I don't wind up settling in Europe, Portland is looking better and better :D
Abneycat
12-16-07, 02:27 AM
That looks pretty comfy, nice. Do those Ergon Grips translate over well to those sweeping bars? I'd wondered about that before.
Sixty Fiver
12-16-07, 03:45 AM
Donna -
That looks great and even more than looks, the fact that you will be more comfortable on your bike is really nice.
I always see bikes like this as being English as I associate internal gear hubs, fenders, and North Road bars with my beloved old 3 speeds although Dutchification is probably more apropos since they seem to be the ones carrying on the tradition of building fine roadsters.
kemmer
12-16-07, 10:54 AM
I think you'll really like those bars. It's a shame you don't see northroad style bars more often. I like the seatpost widget too. I'll have to post a picture of an odd solution that came on a bike I bought used.
donnamb
12-16-07, 11:51 AM
That looks pretty comfy, nice. Do those Ergon Grips translate over well to those sweeping bars? I'd wondered about that before.
I like them, but I do a lot of computer and office work and that pinched nerve in my left (dominant) shoulder sometimes means my pinkie and ring fingers on my left hand get cold and a bit numb. The grips allot me to have a variety of hand positions. The main reason I decided to keep the little hook thingys on the grips is their usefulness in being able to hang bags from the handlebars. :D As I ride this setup more, I'll know more.
I always see bikes like this as being English as I associate internal gear hubs, fenders, and North Road bars with my beloved old 3 speeds although Dutchification is probably more apropos since they seem to be the ones carrying on the tradition of building fine roadsters.
It's funny you should mention that. Todd calls this "Dutchification", but then we both thought what happened yesterday to my bike is more of an "Englishification" because he used North Roads. I'm going to ride this for a while. If I find myself wanting to be even more upright in my posture, we're going to try out the Dutch handlebars of the sort you find on the Azor Omas and Opas.
I like the seatpost widget too. I'll have to post a picture of an odd solution that came on a bike I bought used.
In talking with Todd, it seems getting maximum setback for achieving this sort of riding geometry is a bit of a problem these days. I liked my Thompson seatpost so much, I would have shelled out the money for another one if only their setback had been adequate. It sure would make an interesting thread topic in and of itself. :)
Nightshade
12-16-07, 02:01 PM
My handlebars were replaced with a set of Nitto North Roads. (snip)
but not having my shoulder so affected by my riding is simply heavenly.
To make those North Roads even more comfortable please consider swapping out your handlebar
stem for a "Kalloy Adjustable Quill Stem" to allow you to very precisely dial in the exact angle for
your body's ultimate comfort.
I have both North roads and Kalloy on all three of my urban bikes and have no more pain in
my shoulders,arms, wrist & back. These stem run about $20 so it's a well worthwhile investment.
As an example place to buy.......
http://www.bicyclesupply.net/ProductInfo.aspx?id=3572053
donnamb
12-16-07, 02:11 PM
To make those North Roads even more comfortable please consider swapping out your handlebar
stem for a "Kalloy Adjustable Quill Stem" to allow you to very precisely dial in the exact angle for
your body's ultimate comfort.
I have both North roads and Kalloy on all three of my urban bikes and have no more pain in
my shoulders,arms, wrist & back. These stem run about $20 so it's a well worthwhile investment.
As an example place to buy.......
http://www.bicyclesupply.net/ProductInfo.aspx?id=3572053
I might consider that, Tightwad. Right now, the very short stem I now have (that are used on Dutch bikes) seems promising. It's way, way shorter than the stock Breezer stem. Only time will tell.
cerewa
12-17-07, 07:18 AM
Donna-- with a short stem, you also have the option of reversing the stem if you want the same effect as having handlebars with "more sweep". The downsides are that it doesn't give you as much adjustability as tightwad's solution, and that people who know bikes will think it looks kinda funky.
My girlfriend's old bike has too much seat-to-handlebars distance so I reversed the stem... which changed the riding position to "cruiser-ish" from "regular MTB".
everichon
12-17-07, 03:58 PM
Remember people, if you are about to overtake donnamb on the MUP to always pass the dutchie on the left hand side.
(sorry, I will leave now)
donnamb
12-18-07, 10:35 AM
Donna-- with a short stem, you also have the option of reversing the stem if you want the same effect as having handlebars with "more sweep".
I didn't realize one could reverse a quill stem.
Sixty Fiver
12-18-07, 10:45 AM
Reversed yes but funky ?
I'm not sold on that idea.
squirtdad
12-18-07, 12:49 PM
Remember people, if you are about to overtake donnamb on the MUP to always pass the dutchie on the left hand side.
(sorry, I will leave now)
bad bad bad....... I wished I had thought of it......:p
BAH
12-18-07, 02:47 PM
fun! The water bottle is confusing me though. What is going on there? I've started looking at some way to get a fancy cupholder on my ride :)
AllenG
12-18-07, 03:04 PM
fun! The water bottle is confusing me though. What is going on there? I've started looking at some way to get a fancy cupholder on my ride :)
Air Zounds.
AllenG
12-18-07, 03:04 PM
Swank ride, Donna, nice.
jwbnyc
12-18-07, 06:45 PM
And...
So how do you like it?
donnamb
12-18-07, 08:30 PM
So far, so good. My mom would be proud of my posture. :D
Cyclaholic
12-18-07, 11:08 PM
Donna, the bike is looking great but I just can't get beyond those pink mittens, that's just too cute!:p
tspoon
12-19-07, 01:13 AM
Very nice. I like the way you have two warning devices. One for 'Just letting you know I'm approaching' and the other for slightly more forceful communication. People might take it wrong if the Airhorn was used always. Plus a cycle bell is so much more pleasant a sound than an airhorn.
thdave
12-19-07, 06:25 AM
A big thumbs up, Donna, on your "dutchified" bike!
cman
12-19-07, 09:28 AM
I like the updates. I would be interested to know where to obtain the part on the seat post that sets the seat position back.
tfahrner
12-19-07, 10:53 AM
The setback is by means of a pin manufactured by Brompton for their folding bikes: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/1429704016/ . Requires a plain post, and then whatever adaptor is needed to grab the saddle's rails. Brompton dealers should stock the pins (Clever Cycles has 'em. Soon enough we'll sell online, perhaps in kit form with related useful bits).
Cosmoline
12-19-07, 03:07 PM
Just as a matter of form following function, I find my bikes get more of a "Dutch" look as I use them for utility rides. The handlebars tend to go up more relative to the seat and get swept back. The factory seat is ditched for a nice leather one. Racks and fenders appear, along with platform pedals for easy mounting and dismounting.
Tfahrner also took some "after" pictures of my bike, and I suspect they turned out better than mine. Perhaps he'll post them.
I really like how it turned out. Do you happen to have a link for the seat post? I think that is just what I need.
donnamb
12-19-07, 04:23 PM
I really like how it turned out. Do you happen to have a link for the seat post? I think that is just what I need.
Contact these guys (http://clevercycles.com/). You can use any stovepipe seatpost. It's the other parts that are special.
TurdFerguson2
12-21-07, 08:29 AM
Donna-- with a short stem, you also have the option of reversing the stem if you want the same effect as having handlebars with "more sweep". The downsides are that it doesn't give you as much adjustability as tightwad's solution, and that people who know bikes will think it looks kinda funky.
My girlfriend's old bike has too much seat-to-handlebars distance so I reversed the stem... which changed the riding position to "cruiser-ish" from "regular MTB".
Reversing the stem can have pretty adverse effects on the handling. It will depend on the fork angle and the length of the stem. I'm not saying it won't work, because it obviously works for cerewa, but I would make sure you test both high and low speed handling before getting yourself into a sketchy situation.
cman
12-21-07, 08:39 AM
I really like how it turned out. Do you happen to have a link for the seat post? I think that is just what I need.
I found one. I like the idea too.
http://www.foldabikes.com/CloseUp/bike/sapMain.html
Sianelle
12-26-07, 06:53 PM
North Road bars are just sooooooo lovely to ride with - classic English comfort, - I love them :D
Seatposts that allow for more set-back were really common on pre-war English and Colonial bicycles. Two of my oldest bicycles have them I think they're a really excellent idea. Beats me why manufacturers stopped fitting them to their bicycles; - no doubt cost-cutting had something to do with it. :mad:
jwbnyc
12-26-07, 08:04 PM
Question: Aren't these new crank forward bikes, the Lime etc., a return to more setback?
Sianelle
12-26-07, 08:55 PM
Question: Aren't these new crank forward bikes, the Lime etc., a return to more setback?
Sorry I don't know anything about Science Fiction, - I only know about bicycles made before 1980.
donnamb
12-26-07, 09:06 PM
North Road bars are just sooooooo lovely to ride with - classic English comfort, - I love them :D
Seatposts that allow for more set-back were really common on pre-war English and Colonial bicycles. Two of my oldest bicycles have them I think they're a really excellent idea. Beats me why manufacturers stopped fitting them to their bicycles; - no doubt cost-cutting had something to do with it. :mad:
If you ever felt like posting pictures of those seatposts, I think we'd all appreciate seeing them. Just sayin'. :)
donnamb
12-26-07, 09:11 PM
Question: Aren't these new crank forward bikes, the Lime etc., a return to more setback?
Yes and no. I think they achieve a similar objective, but not quite in the same way. Behold this nifty diagram shamelessly lifted from tfahrner's blo (http://clevercycles.com/)g.
Really, really old bikes (think 1910) often had seatposts with a horizontal pin like this, though most often it faced forward to offer to increase, not decrease the effective seat tube angle, which natively was more laid back than is common today. A saddle forward on its pin was a "scorcher" position. A rear-facing pin serves to convert a typical modern bike (with "scorcher-like" seat tube angle not more than a tick away from 73 degrees) to the more relaxed historical norm.
"Crank forward" bikes do indeed represent a revival of this old thinking, though their manufacturers tend to present it as something they invented or have otherwise somehow tweaked specially. The Lime has a shallow 68-degree seat tube angle, in the neighborhood of old Raleighs, but not as slack as the effective seat tube angle of say the Electra Townies or Giant Suedes.
Steeper seat angles allow for shorter wheelbase (less material so lighter, stiffer, and cheaper to manufacture) and tend also to allow for a better "standing" position as when climbing in a higher gear. Shallow seat angles are all about upright comfort and ease of mounting/dismounting and getting a foot down at stops. Shallow seat angles fell out of favor as bikes came to be understood mainly as sport/recreational equipment instead of as working vehicles (i.e., ones where the comfort of the operator is offered as an important foil to the sometimes rather hard caloric demands of schlepping serious cargo and passengers in hilly country).
jwbnyc
12-27-07, 12:31 AM
Great blog!
Thanks for the info.
Sianelle
12-27-07, 02:25 PM
If you ever felt like posting pictures of those seatposts, I think we'd all appreciate seeing them. Just sayin'. :)
Shall do. I'll have a rat around in my 'stores' and find a couple of examples that I can take a scan of to show you what they look like. :)
Bekologist
12-27-07, 04:00 PM
That must make your Breezer so comfortable, Donna. My most fun bikes to ride have always been the ones with big swept back handlebars. They let you sit totally upright with just a featherlight touch on the handlebars.
Very nice - And your bike's on the Clever Cycles blog!!
Abneycat
12-27-07, 06:17 PM
Its kind of interesting actually, I never really thought about why my one bicycle is so comfortable on the legs, but after reading that blog and looking back at it, its understandable why - the rails on this bike's particular saddle allow for quite a bit more setback on their own than my other saddles, and even without a system like yours it follows almost exactly the same line down to the bottom bracket.. Hm..
I had it set all the way back without ever really thinking about it, but its a really comfy result.
Now to do this on the rest of the bikes!
Domromer
12-27-07, 07:31 PM
How has your new setup work for riding short distances? Rides less than 7 miles. I'm thinking of setting up a dutch style bike as my main around town type bike. Also, what was the reason for setting your seat back? Does having the bars so far back make the cockpit feel cramped with the seat at it's normal setting?
tfahrner
12-27-07, 09:09 PM
Domromer, if all you do is bring the bars closer and higher, yes you cramp the cockpit, but more importantly you reduce the angle between your torso and legs (the red angle in the stick figure graphic here: http://clevercycles.com/?p=193). The resulting posture means you can't make as effective use of the largest muscle group in your body -- the buttocks -- as when you preserve a more acute torso angle. This is the trap of "comfort bikes", cruisers, etc: you'll overwork your quads. Scooching the saddle back at the same time you bring the bars up and in preserves basically the same triangle between bars, saddle, and pedals as before, but it moves all the weight off your hands/arms/shoulders. It opens your chest, puts your head high and balanced.
Sixty Fiver
12-27-07, 09:46 PM
I ride a Raleigh Superbe 3 speed and have ridden it as far as 50 miles (non stop) and have been very comfortable doing so.
Domromer
12-27-07, 09:56 PM
Are their any bikes sold in America that are set up like this already? I'm very interested to try one out. I bought a recumbent because riding a regular mt bike was killing my shoulders/neck/back/writs. The recumebent solved all those problems but it's a pain to use a day to day commuter. So i'm looking for something like Donna put together.
donnamb
12-27-07, 10:59 PM
Are their any bikes sold in America that are set up like this already? I'm very interested to try one out. I bought a recumbent because riding a regular mt bike was killing my shoulders/neck/back/writs. The recumebent solved all those problems but it's a pain to use a day to day commuter. So i'm looking for something like Donna put together.
Come up north and visit us some Saturday (http://clevercycles.com/). :)
Domromer
12-28-07, 08:21 AM
I guess I'll need to do that.
djkenny
01-02-08, 02:00 PM
I love what you did with the Breezer. I have been interested in the upright angle bikes. I found a nice apprx 5 yr old Batavus Navajo on a recent trip to the bay area. A couple from Sweden shipped it over to the USA when moving, and recently, decided to let their younger daughter sell it for cash. It was a tight squeeze in the back of a Chevy Sprint from Los altos to San Jose... before getting a bike box and flying it home to Portland... but well worth it.
It isnt the Oma or Opa traditional model, but a more modern version. Pros and Cons.
It is about 1 size too big for me making the dismounting a little less than ideal, not a internal gear model like I have desired (although that might be a OK traight since the trip to Woodstock has the hill on Gladstone to tackle for around 15 blocks)... but, it has the clever wheel lock and upright position with a solid rear rack. :)
oldfool
01-07-08, 10:28 AM
I have changed all my bikes or at least the ones I ride often to a more upright position. Any position that puts pressure on my wrist just doesn't work for me. To get the seat back far enough on the bikes that need that adjustment I found a couple of doohickeys on handle bars of an old mountain bike in my parts pile. Apparently they are additions to handle bars to make them usable. Sorry I don't know what they are formally called. There is a picture of one unmodified below and and one installed. I cut the extension where the curve starts which leaves my with a 3 inch extension.This is on a cheap Chinese folder that was just terrible to ride the way it was set up originally. With the seat set back three inches it is now comfortable to ride and I no longer feel like a "bear on a bike" circus act although it has been said that I still look like one (I hear giggling behind my back). I use this bike when I have to take my car, not only as a lifeboat but as a way to get around when I go into town.
Never mind the rusty Huffy saddle. It fits my bottom quite well. It will get painted someday but as a member in good standing of the "International Institute of Not Doing Much"(Resistance is futile) I see no reason to hurry.:)
graywolf
01-07-08, 11:05 AM
I have changed all my bikes or at least the ones I ride often to a more upright position.
That is a clever idea. It is a shame that bicycles are now so poorly designed from a transportation point of view that we need to modify them to fit a human body. Of course that kind of moves all you weight over tht rear wheel on that particular bike, must be real easy to do wheelies.