View Full Version : Studs: If I had to do it again
I recently bought Nokian M&G's. They're a fine tire. I can ride in the ice and snow. But if I was going to do it again, without a doubt, I would buy the most aggressive, highly studded tire I could find. Probably the 294's.
I bought the M&G's because I figured they would cut down on rolling resistance. With studs you are going to have resistance anyway, so why not get all the traction you can? When I'm out riding I do not want to fall. Anything that will keep me upright is worth it.
Maybe I can sell he M&G's and get the 294's.
I recently bought Nokian M&G's. They're a fine tire. I can ride in the ice and snow. But if I was going to do it again, without a doubt, I would buy the most aggressive, highly studded tire I could find. Probably the 294's.
I bought the M&G's because I figured they would cut down on rolling resistance. With studs you are going to have resistance anyway, so why not get all the traction you can? When I'm out riding I do not want to fall. Anything that will keep me upright is worth it.
Maybe I can sell he M&G's and get the 294's.
You're rationale sounds a lot like mine but I doubt that i will get rid of my M & G's. I haven't owned the 294's but i can imagine that the added rolling resistance is severe. And on top of that there is no guarantee that they will eliminate the threat from some ice conditions, and it goes without saying that they are more expensive.
rbrsddn
12-16-07, 07:32 PM
I went with the 294's and I'm glad I did. I am not worried about rolling resistance because I don't commute. Just ride for fun. You can make them spin on sheer ice if you want, but if you are smooth with the inputs, the traction is amazing. now for a nice hard freeze... :-)
I just ordered a set of Extremes. I'm going to test them out and see how they compare, then keep whatever combo seems the most appropriate. Based on my experience i just keep thinking that there should be a better studded tire than these Mount and Ground's. There is just something about them that doesn't give me confidence on ice.
Since the first day i installed them last winter, I haven't had the same level of confidence that i had with my old Nashbar studded tires. THe main reason is that i feel slippage from time to time with the Mount and Grounds. I hardly ever felt that with the Nashbar tires and they were supposed to be inferior.
With the Extreme's i should definitely have enough studs now.
CastIron
12-17-07, 01:23 PM
Pretty much my philosophy. These things are heavy and slow no matter what, so why not jump in with both feet?
heavy and slow in the winter = fast, easy and stronger in the spring
Abneycat
12-17-07, 04:14 PM
Although i'm in the Schwalbe camp, my sentiments exactly. The Snow Studs in comparison to the Ice Spikers, don't do what they're designed to do as well, and don't really roll *that* much better. The one thing I wish the Spikers had is a reflective sidewall, seems like the new marathon winters have it all.
mulchie
12-18-07, 06:48 AM
big bummer. Wish this was posted two weeks ago! I just got the mount and grounds. It's my first winter riding and I did find them pretty funky on the ice. Then again, I've got a lot to learn about winter biking. I'll be watching this for more posts. Hopefully someone out there likes the m&gs!
big bummer. Wish this was posted two weeks ago! I just got the mount and grounds. It's my first winter riding and I did find them pretty funky on the ice. Then again, I've got a lot to learn about winter biking. I'll be watching this for more posts. Hopefully someone out there likes the m&gs!
The verdict is still out in my book. I am on my second winter with the Nokian Mount and Grounds. Up until recently I was pretty happy with them. But our recent extreme icy weather proved that they weren't up to the task. Why that is, is still not determined in my book.
I know we have had some of the worst conditions here lately that i have ever ridden in. Glaze ice over everything, was the worst of these. Still i don't think that makes these tires awful. Like i said, this is the 2nds year i have used them and generally i have been happy. This morning i just rode 20 miles out on the county unpaved roads with them and got a long great. Most of the road surfaces were compacted snow/ice and these tires did great on those surfaces.
I guess their failures on severe ice really surprised me. So i ordered a set of the Nokian Extremes. I will be sure to post my results here because i am as interested as anyone else. For one, i know they will be slower, which isn't great news but if they are more secure than i will take that trade off.
rbrsddn
12-18-07, 12:21 PM
I'm sure I've posted this pic before, but the ice this day was rock hard, and the trail up to this point was pretty steep, and the 294's were confidence inspiring. Haven't tried the M&G's. Will be getting the Hakka's next time. I did another ride in March with 2+ inches of snow over ice and the tires worked great.
http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007/02/18/bikepics-805702-full.jpg
If either of you want to sell the M & Gs... lotsa buyers on here, including myself. 26" MTB.
mulchie
12-18-07, 03:00 PM
Hmmm. I might. Still sorting this out. Only 14 miles on them so far. I might just be having newbie chills. But watch this space. The roads here aren't plowed too well.
ghettocruiser
12-19-07, 09:46 AM
So with the temperature above zero and the roads clear (and all my off-road short cuts still snowed under) I took the Nokian 300s off this morning and put my high-pressure slicks on.
On the 45 minute ride in this saved me..... four minutes.
I was a bit bummed, as I have been using the studded tires as an excuse for some pretty slow ride times.
Yup, it was an easy choice for me. The 294s will get you through about anything. Speed is not an issue for me in the Winter.
http://www.velotees.com/images/Mtb62.jpg
... Brad
I recently bought Nokian M&G's. They're a fine tire. I can ride in the ice and snow. But if I was going to do it again, without a doubt, I would buy the most aggressive, highly studded tire I could find. Probably the 294's.
I bought the M&G's because I figured they would cut down on rolling resistance. With studs you are going to have resistance anyway, so why not get all the traction you can? When I'm out riding I do not want to fall. Anything that will keep me upright is worth it.
Maybe I can sell he M&G's and get the 294's.
What about when you have you have to stop on plowed roads? Then you just slide if you have too many studs.
rankin116
12-19-07, 10:36 AM
What about when you have you have to stop on plowed roads? Then you just slide if you have too many studs.
No, you don't. The rubber of the tire should still be contacting the road surface. Lower the pressure.
ghettocruiser
12-19-07, 10:55 AM
What about when you have you have to stop on plowed roads? Then you just slide if you have too many studs.
I've only ever had this problem on very smooth concrete in a new parking garage.
Every other surface I've encountered is rough enough that I've never had issues.
What about when you have you have to stop on plowed roads? Then you just slide if you have too many studs.
This is one of the biggest LIES regarding studded tires ever mentioned. You do not SLIDE on pavement with studded tires. Why would you? Hell, you don't slide on ice, why would you slide on a rough paved surface?
Abneycat
12-19-07, 11:40 AM
Traction with studded tires on pavement is not really different than with a similar tire that does not have studs. Sorry.
The only difference is noise.
thebulls
12-19-07, 11:47 AM
No, you don't. The rubber of the tire should still be contacting the road surface. Lower the pressure.
I've only ever slid once on my studded tires, and that was on a wet, steel plate that was covering a construction hole. I would have slid on that plate with regular, rubber tires, too.
My first winter with studs, I had an Extreme on the front and a M&G on the back. That worked pretty well, except that I found that the M&G had a tendency to get stuck in ruts that the Extreme had climbed out of, so then the rear end would slide in the rut. It never caused me to go down, but it was worrisome and a bit of a handful. I now have Extreme's on both ends, and feel substantially more confident.
Traction with studded tires on pavement is not really different than with a similar tire that does not have studs. Sorry.
The only difference is noise.
I use studded tires (Nokian 106), and I know that on ice they are wonderful, they are okay on pavement, and on cobblestones they border on dangerous. There is no way I'd need more studs unless I was riding in the forest or on a frozen lake.
FWIW the first few km of my commute is on unplowed roads which literally turn to sheets of ice. More isn't always better.
This is one of the biggest LIES regarding studded tires ever mentioned. You do not SLIDE on pavement with studded tires. Why would you? Hell, you don't slide on ice, why would you slide on a rough paved surface?
Because the studs don't have anything soft like ice to grip. :rolleyes:
This is one of the biggest LIES regarding studded tires ever mentioned. You do not SLIDE on pavement with studded tires. Why would you? Hell, you don't slide on ice, why would you slide on a rough paved surface?
Don't ask me. Ask Sheldon Brown (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_i-k.html#knobby):
Knobby tires perform extremely badly on paved surfaces. The knobs greatly increase rolling resistance, and create annoying vibrations. They also corner badly on pavement, due to squirm (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_sp-ss.html#squirm).
Of course, this is because most studded tires are knobbies, not because of the studs themselves. I've never tried slick tires with studs, so I don't know how that would work on pavement. I have tried knobbies on pavement frequently, and I know that fast cornering on pavement is a trip.
ghettocruiser
12-19-07, 01:23 PM
I prefer slick tires for almost all of my riding (including off-road racing sometimes) but I've never noticed much difference between full slicks and most knobby tires on corners. In fact, I probably break the slicks loose more often, since most of the year there is sand and dust in the equation.
Generally off-road tires are wider and lower pressure than road tires, and in my experience the extra contact area more than offsets any traction loss or unpredictability introduced by the treads. Perhaps this is a subjective thing, as I gew up on mountain bikes and went into road bikes later.
But that's not the issue with studs. On smooth concrete there are no little divots for the studs to settle into, and if you have the pressure up, functionally you are riding on metal tires. Yes, they slide.
Again, it's no lie, but it's also not a big deal, unless you do a lot of cornering on really new smooth concrete in your winter riding.
I prefer slick tires for almost all of my riding (including off-road racing sometimes) but I've never noticed much difference between full slicks and most knobby tires on corners. In fact, I probably break the slicks loose more often, since most of the year there is sand and dust in the equation.
Generally off-road tires are wider and lower pressure than road tires, and in my experience the extra contact area more than offsets any traction loss or unpredictability introduced by the treads. Perhaps this is a subjective thing, as I gew up on mountain bikes and went into road bikes later.
But that's not the issue with studs. On smooth concrete there are no little divots for the studs to settle into, and if you have the pressure up, functionally you are riding on metal tires. Yes, they slide.
Again, it's no lie, but it's also not a big deal, unless you do a lot of cornering on really new smooth concrete in your winter riding.
Or you have way more studs than are needed for riding on roads.
Don't ask me. Ask Sheldon Brown (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_i-k.html#knobby):
Of course, this is because most studded tires are knobbies, not because of the studs themselves. I've never tried slick tires with studs, so I don't know how that would work on pavement. I have tried knobbies on pavement frequently, and I know that fast cornering on pavement is a trip.
Have you ever ridden studded tires at all? I'm beginning to wonder. The subject here is studded tires. The link you provided referencing Sheldon, says nothing about studded tires.
Of course, this is because most studded tires are knobbies, not because of the studs themselves. I've never tried slick tires with studs, so I don't know how that would work on pavement. I have tried knobbies on pavement frequently, and I know that fast cornering on pavement is a trip.
This is a ridiculous argument. So you are concluding that studded tires will make you slide on dry pavement because Sheldon Brown says knobbies make your bike squirm, and therefore some studded tires are knobby so they will cause your bike to slide. ??????? Nuts! I think most 3rd graders are familiar with how knobby tires work on pavement, since most Walmart bikes come with Knobby tires.
YOu are revealing nothing here but a misconception.
^^^^
And I, who also disagrees with you, is basing his opinion on experience. Good luck with all those extra studs, Stud. :rolleyes:
rbrsddn
12-19-07, 02:09 PM
The 294's are designed for off road riding only. If you are riding mostly on the road, get tires with fewer studs.
ghettocruiser
12-19-07, 02:12 PM
Or you have way more studs than are needed for riding on roads.
Nope, not really a factor, since there are not, alas, a lot of cobblestone roads here.
It would be cool if there were, at least the rest of the year.
The 294's are designed for off road riding only. If you are riding mostly on the road, get tires with fewer studs.
Yeah, i've got tires with fewer studs. My Mount and Ground's only have 160 and they proved quite worthless on the ROADS around here the last couple of weeks. Tires don't know if they are on a road or not. They only know what is between them and the ground.
rbrsddn
12-19-07, 04:23 PM
Whatever works.
Abneycat
12-19-07, 07:39 PM
On hard ground, the studs recess into the tire, and do not "slide". However, in agreeance with you, I don't necessarily think that you *need* these top level 250+ studded tires in every situation either.
The statement that "less studs for road, more for off road" that people keep spouting is quite rigid and likely based on their own personal experiences. Personally, I consider it to simply be stupid, as its completely ignoring the fact that different parts of the world have different riding conditions. I live in a city, yes. However, I also live in a city where my riding route includes notable hills, often unplowed roads, and the extreme icemaking potential of a chinook followed by an overnight freeze, worse yet that the ice may begin to develop a film of water on top once it warms up in the afternoon again. These conditions mean that the city can either be +4 and dry, or +4 and sporting glaze ice with water on top. Furthermore, with the 100+lbs of stuff thats often on my bike, I want the extra traction on ice without a doubt.
After personally testing some "milder" studded tires, they simply weren't up to snuff. However, for someone who does indeed encounter nothing but nicely plowed roads and the occasional patch of the slick stuff, there's no need for anything extreme. But this blanket statement people make about what kind of tires you should be using based on city or not, is silly.
From Peter White cycles: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/studdedtires.asp
"The studs will not make the bike skid on pavement. If they did we couldn't sell them. They only help the tires to NOT skid on ice. They have no effect on pavement, except for a chattering sound."There it is.
notnormal
12-19-07, 08:24 PM
From Peter White cycles: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/studdedtires.asp
"The studs will not make the bike skid on pavement. If they did we couldn't sell them. They only help the tires to NOT skid on ice. They have no effect on pavement, except for a chattering sound."There it is.
Also from his website:
Q: My friend heard that studded tires will skid on roads without ice because the metal studs can slide on the pavement. Isn't that true and shouldn't I only use them on ice?
A: While it is obviously true that a tire made entirely of carbide would have precious little traction on asphalt, the carbide studs in bicycle tires, as well as those in automobile tires only protrude a very short distance from the rubber surface; one millimeter in the case of bicycle tires, and about 3mm in the case of automobile tires.
The studs are embedded in relatively soft rubber, so when the stud contacts pavement, it sinks back down into the tread, and only slightly effects the contact pressure of the surrounding rubber for perhaps 1mm in radius, leaving well over 99% of the remaining tread with exactly the same contact with the pavement, but with infinitesimally higher pressure. On the softer ice, the carbide stud sinks, not back into the tire tread, but into the ice.
Anyone claiming that studded tires have less traction on either wet or dry pavement only proves that he's never ridden a bike with studded tires, nor driven a car with them. They are perfectly safe on roads without ice. Were that not the case, tire manufacturers would have been hauled into court decades ago and studded tires would have been banned. While in the cycling world there is some confusion about the subject, in the automobile world studded tires are well known as the life saving devices they are. Since every driver knows that in a typical winter, you spend perhaps 2% of your time driving on ice, and the rest of the time on clear pavement, were there any truth to the notion of these tires being a danger, they wouldn't be available for sale, certainly not in our litigious society. There is nothing to be concerned about.
Note that this applies to carbide studs.
Yeah, i've got tires with fewer studs. My Mount and Ground's only have 160 and they proved quite worthless on the ROADS around here the last couple of weeks. Tires don't know if they are on a road or not. They only know what is between them and the ground.
Maybe you should reevaluate your riding style. Most of us with 700c wheels are absolutely no beef with 106 studs. The roads in my neighborhood aren't even plowed and turn into thick sheets of ice, and I still have no problem with 'only' 106 studs.....
BearSquirrel
12-20-07, 01:28 AM
But that's not the issue with studs. On smooth concrete there are no little divots for the studs to settle into, and if you have the pressure up, functionally you are riding on metal tires. Yes, they slide.
.
True, but the last thing you do after pooring concrete for road or sidewalk is to rough the surface with a brush (OK, some people put tents up over it for hydration). Poored interior floors often have the smoothness you're talking about.
BearSquirrel
12-20-07, 01:30 AM
The 294's are designed for off road riding only. If you are riding mostly on the road, get tires with fewer studs.
They are designed for the needs off road ice cycling. Nothing prevents you from using them on the road. The knobs will just slow you down in good conditions. If things get sketchy, you'll appreciate those knobs.
Maybe you should reevaluate your riding style. Most of us with 700c wheels are absolutely no beef with 106 studs. The roads in my neighborhood aren't even plowed and turn into thick sheets of ice, and I still have no problem with 'only' 106 studs.....
THe fact that you reference roads "being plowed" indicates what i already know. There are vastly different road conditions that can occur in winter. Ice can have many different degrees of slickness, you can't just say "ice" and encompass all types.
My biggest trouble last week was when there was no plowing at all going on because there was no snow. There was a light mist/rain that had fallen for about 18 hours straight and everything had a crystal clear layer of glass covering it. 160 studs did not work in these conditions.
There are other less difficult types of ice like that which is caused from melting and refreezing snow. This always seem to offer some traction. I know this because i have ridden in it for years.
royalflash
12-20-07, 06:41 AM
Maybe you should reevaluate your riding style. Most of us with 700c wheels are absolutely no beef with 106 studs. The roads in my neighborhood aren't even plowed and turn into thick sheets of ice, and I still have no problem with 'only' 106 studs.....
I use extreme 294s for normal winter conditions and Freddies revenz for the extreme conditions
a bit of extra rollling resistance won´t kill me but falling under bus might
I use extreme 294s for normal winter conditions and Freddies revenz for the extreme conditions
a bit of extra rollling resistance won´t kill me but falling under bus might
Do you really think you are in danger of falling under a bus unless you use the most extreme solution?
Do you really think you are in danger of falling under a bus unless you use the most extreme solution?
Maybe he is thinking that we wants to minimize his risk of sliding under a bus. More studs would logically do this on ice, if you ask me. Sounds perfectly reasonable.
Thanks to a mild winter, I haven't had the need to put my 294s on yet, but they're really nice tyres.
One thing they DON'T handle at all well, however, is thick (esp. wet) snow. They float and slide around and fail to slice through to the ground. Riding into a snowdrift will often stop you dead or throw you to the side.
I would've liked 28-32 mm slicks with around 200 studs. Narrow and smooth enough to slice though the snow but still studded to cope with clear ice.
Maybe he is thinking that we wants to minimize his risk of sliding under a bus. More studs would logically do this on ice, if you ask me. Sounds perfectly reasonable.
Spoken like a true American; more is always better. :rolleyes:
Is it anyone's experience that the Extremes handle better in the doughy snow,sand,salt muck because of their more aggressive tread or is that stuff just difficult no matter what?
My cheap Nashbar studs work great on ice but in that kind of snow they wander and tend to want to slide sideways even at 25 - 30 psi...
This is one of the biggest LIES regarding studded tires ever mentioned. You do not SLIDE on pavement with studded tires. Why would you? Hell, you don't slide on ice, why would you slide on a rough paved surface?
The steel to pavement contact has a lower coefficient of friction than rubber. You slide at lower Gs than with a sole rubber sole as would be the case under hard braking or hard cornering. The loss of traction relative an nonstudded tire on dry pavement is real and properly grounded in kinematics.
Recall from you physics or dynamics engineering classes that for a given tire and pressure, the maximum tractional force is a product of coefficient of friction and weight (you can neglect the slight nonlinearities due soft surface).
When you have a simple unstudded tire, the entire weight is on the high coefficient rubber.
When you have a more complex studded tire, tractional force is a product of :
((total weight - the weight on the studs ) X Coefficient of friction of the rubber) + ((weight on studs) X coefficient of friction for the studs))
Weight on the higher coefficient rubber is displace by weight on the lower coefficient steel, resulting in a total reduction in the maximum traction force the tire gives you.
The max tractional force is reduced on a studded tire, therefore you slide at a much lower g-loading than with a non-studded tire on dry pavement.
I've only ever had this problem on very smooth concrete in a new parking garage.
Every other surface I've encountered is rough enough that I've never had issues.
The smoother surface concrete has a lower coefficient of friction relative the rougher asphalt. You slide at lower Gs (or more specifically, a lower fraction of a 1 G) on the concrete than the asphalt.
I recently bought Nokian M&G's. They're a fine tire. I can ride in the ice and snow. But if I was going to do it again, without a doubt, I would buy the most aggressive, highly studded tire I could find. Probably the 294's.
I bought the M&G's because I figured they would cut down on rolling resistance. With studs you are going to have resistance anyway, so why not get all the traction you can? When I'm out riding I do not want to fall. Anything that will keep me upright is worth it.
Maybe I can sell he M&G's and get the 294's.
The aggressiveness of stud selection needs be taylored to the conditions you ride in.
Here in norther Virginia, the concern is ice patches that I hit by surprise, I'm not on ice much of the time. The tactic here is a less aggressive stud that can catch a slide on the ice patch, yet giving the higher adhesion and lower rolling resistance proximate a nonstudded tire.
The 108 studs along the sides with a centerline free of studs is appropriate here.
In more northerly locations that I've lived in, such as Flint, MI, wherein snow and ice on the ground remain all winter, a 294 would be a good selection. In the warmer locale of the desert southwest that I lived in, I would never use studded tires.
mulchie
01-01-08, 05:36 AM
Report from a new studded tire rider:
I've got M&Gs and am liking them very well. As above, they don't handle the worst of it. But I'm generally not on the bike then. When I do need them is when the roads are relatively clear with patches of ice and moments of cruddy stuff sliding in from the plowed banks. I slow down and pay attention and they work great. I almost upgraded to the 294s but that really seems like more than what I need and I was put off by $100 per and these were half that. I don't notice much roll resistance. It's my slower heavier mtb anyway. So I say ++. Hakkapellita 106 might have been good, too. I expect the design of the tread and studding pattern changes the ride. I'd be curious to hear from someone who has tried each one.
Too bad you can't test ride studs the way you can test ride the bikes!
I'm surprised at how rarely people mention the Continental Nordic Spikes as an option.
I have a pair of these tires (http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/continental/bicycle/themes/tires/city/nordic_spike/nordic_spike_en.html) with 240 studs.
I think the 42mm width is an advantage in the winter, but a lot of bikes may not have the clearance for tires that size. In any case I've found they have excellent traction in most types of snow and ice. If people are looking for something between the 106 and 294 studs the Contis could be an option.
I'm surprised at how rarely people mention the Continental Nordic Spikes as an option.
I have a pair of these tires (http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/continental/bicycle/themes/tires/city/nordic_spike/nordic_spike_en.html) with 240 studs.
I think the 42mm width is an advantage in the winter, but a lot of bikes may not have the clearance for tires that size. In any case I've found they have excellent traction in most types of snow and ice. If people are looking for something between the 106 and 294 studs the Contis could be an option.
They aren't mentioned because the studs aren't carbide and wear down rather quickly.
flipped4bikes
01-01-08, 10:12 AM
Let me chime in on this. I took a ride yesterday on brand new Schwalbe Marathon Winters. 700x35c, 240 studs. First time ever riding studded tires. I had them inflated to about 40 psi. Maybe I was over exuberant, but the only thing I noticed about the tires is that they're heavy. I was able to test ride them on various conditions: plowed roads, clear roads, walking trails with 8" snow, sidewalks plowed but not completely clear.
I'm not quite seeing the disagreement of having too many studs. Maybe it was stupid of me, but I went on a fast downhill at about 26 mph. Bike felt very stable despite studs and really only noticed vibration. I didn't try any emergency stops, and the road was completely clear. All I can say is that it didn't feel like I was riding on all metal. That opinion may change if I pump up the tires past 60psi, but I have no issues.
In my limited test ride, I can say that I feel more in control with that many studs. I was debating whether to get the Nokian W106 with half the studs. Now I'm very happy with the Schwalbes. Yes, more studs, but it gives me more versatility with conditions. Unpacked snow, clear roads, slush, melting, ruts, and plowed roads. I will only ride non-studded tires in winter in normal, dry conditions.
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