Thanks for the I-5 report George,

I don't know why they don't route us through Camp Pendleton. As long as you have a photo ID with you, no problem. And the roads in the Camp are usually much better than the I-5 shoulder.

Maybe Deb will post here and let us know! If not, I'll try to remember to ask her. Maybe it's an insurance issue?

Rick / OCRR

I will be providing SAG support for this ride, I will be a checkpoint #4. Say hi when you stop by.

Yes M.E.

This Sat. Feb. 16th 5:30 AM through whenever I finish . . .

Are you working this one since you aren't riding?

Rick / OCRR

No, not working it. I'm riding this weekend, only my rides will be considerably shorter. I'm nowhere near double riding shape. :(

No, not working it. I'm riding this weekend, only my rides will be considerably shorter. I'm nowhere near double riding shape. :(

I can not ride a double better than you can not ride a double.

I can not ride a double better than you can not ride a double.

No. I am better out of shape than you are out of shape. I beat you at inability to climb and really show you up in the out of breath category. I'm truly better at fail than you.

I will be providing SAG support for this ride, I will be a checkpoint #4. Say hi when you stop by.

Okay, will do!

Just in case I lose count before I get there (likely!), where is checkpoint #4?

Rick / OCRR

Thanks for the I-5 report George,

I don't know why they don't route us through Camp Pendleton. As long as you have a photo ID with you, no problem. And the roads in the Camp are usually much better than the I-5 shoulder.

Maybe Deb will post here and let us know! If not, I'll try to remember to ask her. Maybe it's an insurance issue?

Rick / OCRR

Hi.

We cannot provide SAG support through Camp Pendleton. There's also the insurance issue.
That said, nothing is stopping you from going that way.

Deb

Thanks for posting that Deb!

I knew you'd have an answer for us! I'd thought of the insurance issue, but wasn't aware of the SAG vehicle part.

Rick / OCRR

I'll be at CP#2 (~mile 87) making sure to handle your food and water refills as you hit Bonsall.

Then I'll probably stop by CP#4 (~mile 167) to help out SVCbefore calling it a day.

I'll be there working the Mini Stops at mile 39 and mile 121

the only way to improve a double century is to make it a single.

^^^^BOOooooo...

The final leg is basically the reverse of the old Butterfield route: Up Ortega Highway to Antonio Parkway, across Santiago Canyon

Hey Deb (or anyone else who knows...I really wish I had the route slip ahead of time, always makes me feel better to be able to visualize or even pre-ride parts of a course this long)...anyway...my question is in regard to the last leg. When you say across Santiago Canyon, does this include going the reverse of last year's route also through Trabuco Canyon? That would be Plano Trabuco, descending Live Oak and turning at Cook's Corner, then going across Santiago Canyon.

Yes Brandy,

That is my understanding, having ridden the Butterflood route three years ago. Climbing Live Oak in the rain is an experience I hope not to repeat! Of course, there are other routes to Santiago Canyon from Antonio, but I'm guessing your are correct, i.e. Trabuco, Live Oak then up the climb after Cook's corner.

Rick / OCRR

Yes Brandy,

That is my understanding, having ridden the Butterflood route three years ago. Climbing Live Oak in the rain is an experience I hope not to repeat! Of course, there are other routes to Santiago Canyon from Antonio, but I'm guessing your are correct, i.e. Trabuco, Live Oak then up the climb after Cook's corner.

Rick / OCRR

Ah yes, the Butterflood!!!!! I still have memories of doing that ride, wet, cold and muddy all day. What a beautiful ride. :rolleyes:

Yes Brandy,

That is my understanding, having ridden the Butterflood route three years ago. Climbing Live Oak in the rain is an experience I hope not to repeat! Of course, there are other routes to Santiago Canyon from Antonio, but I'm guessing your are correct, i.e. Trabuco, Live Oak then up the climb after Cook's corner.

Rick / OCRR

With the incredibly UNSAFE history that stretch of road has, I'm VERY surprised to see it in the route, particularly when most riders will hit it in the dark. Disappointing.

Edited to add: THIS is exactly why I like to see route slips before an event. I would have spoken up about this. Perhaps Deb doesn't realize that this road (with narrow lanes and no shoulder) is very well known in Orange County as a place where people speed like mad. Of course, if you've driven it during the day you can see all of the roadside memorials. Going through here at night is something I am NOT looking forward to.

True Dante,

That's where I met you, in fact. In the morning, just starting out, you were confused because of name changes of the roads, i.e. Santa Ana Canyon becomes Wanda, Santiago becomes Jamboree, etc. Not sure you'll remember that conversation, but I'd ridden those roads so much it was no problem for me.

Of course you were much faster, so that was the last time I saw you, but Butterflood will be difficult to forget for a lot of reasons. Lots of miles in the pouring rain . . . And then Solvang Spring that year wasn't much better!

Rick / OCRR

With the incredibly UNSAFE history that stretch of road has, I'm VERY surprised to see it in the route, particularly when most riders will hit it in the dark. Disappointing.

Honestly, I hadn't heard any UNSAFE history about that bit of road, but it doesn't surprise me . . . I've never even had a close-call there, but considering the traffic and the limited sight-lines, I see what you mean.

Rick / OCRR

True Dante,

That's where I met you, in fact. In the morning, just starting out, you were confused because of name changes of the roads, i.e. Santa Ana Canyon becomes Wanda, Santiago becomes Jamboree, etc. Not sure you'll remember that conversation, but I'd ridden those roads so much it was no problem for me.

Of course you were much faster, so that was the last time I saw you, but Butterflood will be difficult to forget for a lot of reasons. Lots of miles in the pouring rain . . . And then Solvang Spring that year wasn't much better!

Rick / OCRR

YES, I do remember that conversation! That was you, ok. I also had problems coming back that night because of having to reading the direction backwards and the road name changes I missed a turn and ended up……somewhere. I called my son, he got on Map Quest and guided me back on the course. If you’re not familiar with riding in an area and with road name changes it sometimes can be difficult, now let’s throw in some bad weather. See you Friday night or Saturday for sure.

Honestly, I hadn't heard any UNSAFE history about that bit of road, but it doesn't surprise me . . . I've never even had a close-call there, but considering the traffic and the limited sight-lines, I see what you mean.

Rick / OCRR

http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/news/atoz/article_983693.php


Sunday, February 5, 2006
Fear rules Live Oak Canyon Road
Memorial crosses line a winding stretch of Live Oak Canyon, but thrill-seekers in fast cars keep coming.
By ERIKA I. RITCHIE
THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER
Comments 0| Recommend 0

It's after sundown.

It won't be long until Capt. Bob Coats hears the buzz of high-powered engines followed by screeching brakes.

It's a regular thing. Firefighters from Orange County Fire Authority Station 18 and the Cleveland National Forest Station 26 on Live Oak Canyon Road know that on weekend nights drivers will test the twisting, tree-lined road.


The road, better fit for a leisurely drive, is a tempting setting for exhibitions of speed. Some drivers test high-performance cars, some vehicles powered by nitrous oxide - a propellant that makes fuel burn hotter, moving the cylinders of an engine faster. Some drivers are teens seeking excitement.

Last year emergency crews were called to 60 crashes. The California Highway Patrol has stepped up enforcement of laws against speeding and driving under the influence. But for residents of rustic Trabuco Canyon and commuters from nearby Rancho Santa Margarita, driving on Live Oak Canyon Road remains intimidating.

Traffic volume is increasing on the right of way that began as a stagecoach trail in the early 1900s to provide access to canyon properties. Starting at Cook's Corner, the 6-mile road connects Lake Forest through Trabuco Canyon to south Orange County inland communities like Rancho Santa Margarita.

Live Oak is a collector road meant to take residential traffic to major arterials, said Grant Anderson, a county civil engineer. Unlike other roads of this type, its narrow design and curves don't meet today's standards. The road is posted for the safe, legal speed and marked with warning signs.

"If people would heed them, they wouldn't be running off the road," Anderson said.

Current county statistics show 2,700 cars a day on the road. The county has no plans to widen it.

"It's not a capacity issue, it's how unsafely people are driving," Anderson said. "People are driving faster than the road and its curves are designed to carry them."

Coats, who has been stationed at OCFA in the canyon for 2-1/2 years, has seen many crashed vehicles off the road and in the seasonal creek along Live Oak. He's seen cars boosted by nitrous oxide and drivers wearing racing harnesses.

"It's a constant problem," Coats said. "It makes people wary about venturing out when the sun goes down. People who live off the road are afraid of cars launching onto their property."

Others fear driving the road - the only way out of their canyon community.

Living in fear

Russ Thompson, a longtime resident of the canyon, won't venture onto Live Oak without preparing for the worst.

"I roll down my driver's-side window and make sure the doors aren't locked so I can be pulled out if I'm hit," he said. "We've had so many wrecks here, we can't even count them. We talk about new skid marks every week. Everyone living in the canyon is impacted."

Residents say they've seen cars with spoilers lining up at Plano Trabuco Road and racing into the canyon, well exceeding the 35-mph speed limit. Firefighters and law enforcers arrive after motorists have spun out of control, struck trees and careened into the creek bed below.

Live Oak is dark and has no stop signs or traffic lights. It twists with blind curves under an oak canopy. "The Place," a stretch between Hamilton Road Trail and the Ramakrishna Monastery, is witness to many accidents. The "Porsche Tree" - where two Porsche drivers lost their lives - is a solemn reminder. The creek below is littered with car parts. Crosses marking fatal crashes are nailed to at least 20 trees along the road.

Capt. Jon Neely of the U.S. Forest Service, stationed along the road, has seen cars closely following each other.

"They'll come by the front of the station on the straightaway going 100 mph," he said. "They'll have someone in the lead car videoing the cars behind them at above-freeway speeds. Cars end up wrapped around oak trees with 120 feet of skids."

Matt Shearer, 33, of Placentia knows the road's dangers - he walked away from one of the Porsche Tree's fatal accidents about 10 years ago. His good friend, Doug Monnig, who lived in the canyon, died on impact.

"I realized he was going too fast, and I put on my seat belt," Shearer said. "About two turns before where he lived, he lost control and hit the tree. I know that canyon is brutal. During the day it's pretty, but at night it's one of the most dangerous roads."

Since then, the road has not gotten safer. In fact, firefighters say the rate of accidents is up.

And it's not just the motorists who are endangered, Coats said.

Each time there's a crash with injuries, at least a dozen firefighters, two engines, one truck and a paramedic unit go to work. In some cases, this can tie up paramedic units from nearby cities for a couple of hours, leaving other sick or injured people without service.

Dan Doke lives in a gated community off Live Oak known as Hamilton Oaks. Drivers often pass his place at 50 to 60 mph. There have been six deaths in front of his property, which parallels the road. In the last two years, young drivers - from San Clemente and Tustin - have crashed through the fence and onto his property, resulting in injury.

On Patrol

Recently, Alexander Vartanian, 17, from Lake Forest went into a blind curve at more than 50 mph when he did a 180-degree spin and slid off the road near the Porsche Tree. He was lucky - only his car was damaged.

"We were doing the canyon drive just like we do every Friday," he said "It's a fun road to drive. It's dark, has two lanes and it's windy."

CHP officer Justin Sherwood wasn't surprised when he arrived at the site where Vartanian crashed.

"This is the spot," he said. "They'll run through here, they'll run through Santiago Canyon and Modjeska (Canyon). They always try to tell us the same thing - 'They were just cruising around.' But some have got scout cars going through. If they see us, they leave."

The CHP has jurisdiction over the county's unincorporated roads but doesn't have enough officers to regularly patrol the remote area.

Four units patrol all of south Orange County from Lake Forest to San Diego County, including all of Ortega Highway, Los Flores, Ladera Ranch and the 73 and 241 toll roads.

"We could use more people in south Orange County, but our resources are limited," said Lt. Steve Deck.

In November, special enforcement units were sent to work the area and issued 15 speeding tickets the first Saturday night. Since then, officers have stepped up weekend patrols and issued 93 tickets - 40 were for speeding and five were citations for driving under the influence.

"We feel it's appropriate to get to the rural areas to establish our presence so things don't get out of hand," Deck said.

The Orange County Board of Supervisors repealed an ordinance limiting the sheriff's traffic patrols in rural areas on Jan. 24. In 2-1/2 weeks, the Sheriff's Department will help CHP patrol all unincorporated roads in the county.

But not all crashes result from a driver pitting his car and driving skills against the road.

Jonathan Salter, 17, from Mission Viejo totaled his Chevy Prism during a roll-over in December. He was using the scenic shortcut to a friend's house in Rancho Santa Margarita.

"There was this car behind me," he said, "They had their high beams on. The guy was making me go faster. It was kind of scaring me. I slid, hit a tree, turned completely sideways and rolled into the creek."

He knows the road's reputation. He's seen a lot of people speed through the canyon - many driving fast cars like Subaru WRX's. "It's a popular spot because you don't see cops out there," he said.

The crash left Salter with minor injuries.

Doke hopes this month won't bring another wreck - it'd be the third February in a row vehicles crashed through his fence.

"It baffles me," he said. "It's such a beautiful place, and there's so much tragedy here."

Thanks Youtube. Some idiots (like the article mentions) like to document their stupidity.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WRFyweE1SaY&feature=related

Thanks Youtube. Some idiots (like the article mentions) like to document their stupidity.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WRFyweE1SaY&feature=related

you are the google queen... that's scary :eek:

... just don't make me fax anyone k?

Thanks Brandy!

Now I am really afraid!

Rick / OCRR

Brandy, although I'm not riding this year, I want the constructive feedback for next year. I'm sure Planet Ultra will too, as they take their rides very seriously. That road sounds dangerous, so be careful out there for sure and that goes for all riders. I am optimistic no issues will present themselves and all reports will come in that safe rides were had by all.

In the video, it doesn't look like they're going that fast; although regardless, a train of cars doing canyon runs can be scary when you're riding a bike beside them.

Have fun and be safe! :)

Thanks Brandy!

Now I am really afraid!

Rick / OCRR

I think we all should be. ;) This time of year, finishing in the light isn't an option for me and I'll likely hit this section in the dark, as will many of the riders.

In the video, it doesn't look like they're going that fast; although regardless, a train of cars doing canyon runs can be scary when you're riding a bike beside them.

Have fun and be safe! :)

Did you have the sound on? Just curious...the screeching, squealing and "oh sh*t" kind of gave me a clue that they weren't going 35.

From this article; http://www.ocregister.com/sports/david-whiting-orange-1979972-county-road

"Curiously, nearly every other vehicle on Saturday veered into the bike lane, an illegal act according to the California Vehicle Code, while most vehicles on Sunday obeyed the law and stayed on the road."

Good thing I'll be riding it on Sunday.

From this article; http://www.ocregister.com/sports/david-whiting-orange-1979972-county-road

"Curiously, nearly every other vehicle on Saturday veered into the bike lane, an illegal act according to the California Vehicle Code, while most vehicles on Sunday obeyed the law and stayed on the road."

Good thing I'll be riding it on Sunday.

Note to self: Do the workers ride next time. :p

We've spoken with the OC CHP, who report that Live Oak Canyon is not considered a high accident / high risk area.

The bottom line is that any road with no bike lane is going to be "scary" for some riders, compared to the big, wide shoulders in other areas. Butterfield is very urban route; and frankly, we don't love it. But riders want it - so we keep hosting it.

We feel that the current Butterfield route is significantly safer than the old route. We've spent a lot of time and energy trying to come up with something decent - which isn't easy considering the urban blight of Orange and San Diego Counties. The Planet Ultra website specifically states: 'Caveat: This is a very urban route with lots of traffic lights and cars. The locals love it -- but if you're from out of town and are expecting quiet roads and lots of amazing scenery, you might be disappointed. Just being honest. "

The article Brandy posted is over a year old. The CHP does patrol Live Oak Canyon. But they also said that that article was over-the-top as far as creating a scare where none is warranted. At least not any moreso than any other public road.

Deb

and PS:
Statistically, you're just as likely to be hit by a car when you're IN a bike line than you are when you're riding where there isn't one.

USE A REAR-VIEW MIRROR.
;-)

The article Brandy posted is over a year old. The CHP does patrol Live Oak Canyon. But they also said that that article was over-the-top as far as creating a scare where none is warranted. At least not any moreso than any other public road.

Deb
[/SIZE][/FONT]

I find that hard to believe, you can't argue with all of the crash information or all of the roadside memorials. There is scare warranted on that road and I think that most of the residents of Trabuco Canyon would disagree with you.

I find that hard to believe, you can't argue with all of the crash information or all of the roadside memorials. There is scare warranted on that road and I think that most of the residents of Trabuco Canyon would disagree with you.

Brandy,
I just got off the phone with the O.C. CHP. If you're concerned you should call them directly. Notwithstanding, if you're not happy about riding Live Oak at night, perhaps Butterfield isn't for you. That's totally understandable. Personally, it's not my kind of route; not because of safety issues - but I can't stand all the OC traffic lights...

Brandy,
I just got off the phone with the O.C. CHP. If you're concerned you should call them directly. Notwithstanding, if you're not happy about riding Live Oak at night, perhaps Butterfield isn't for you. That's totally understandable. Personally, it's not my kind of route; not because of safety issues - but I can't stand all the OC traffic lights...

60 crashes in a year is one approximately every 6 days...not good stats for a 6 mile stretch of road. I just don't think it was a wise addition to the route, considering most people will hit it in the dark. Just my opinion.

Live Oak has ALWAYS been on the Buttefield Route; even before Planet Ultra hosted it.

The bottom line is, folks, that there aren't that many ways to connect roads to create routes. Do you know how difficult (and sometimes impossible) it is to come up with 190-200 miles in any geographic area to make a cohesive, logical, follow-able route (where you can ALSO find places to have checkpoints)?

My point is that there are lots of events on lots of roads, and you do some, and you don't do others based on whatever criteria you have in mind for yourself. It's pretty rare that you find an event where you can honestly say that there were no crappy, scary, bumpy, traffic-y parts.

We've reviewed this route with Chuck Bramwell of the California Triple Crown; and five riders pre-rode it BY THEMSELVES WITH NO SUPPORT; and had no complaints about Live Oak Canyon.

That's all I'm going to say about this. It's time for me to go pack vans.

Note to self: Do the workers ride next time. :p

It's not a workers ride. It's just two workers that happend to do the same route the next day, unsupported.;)

Live Oak has ALWAYS been on the Buttefield Route; even before Planet Ultra hosted it.


If so, then it had to be the road I was on last year in the dark that did scare the hell out of me. I was with the ADO Gang though. Clem, Roland and Ron got me through that area. Without them, I would have probably not seen where to turn off. There were no streetlights at all.

Just good for folks to be aware, Deb, by the way, and I think good to discuss. It helps those who are riding plan. A light on the helmet as well as the handlebars would be what I would have had this year if I were riding. The helmet light makes reading the route slip easier.

Oh, and I am one who finishes doubles in the dark, so for me, important info. :)

If so, then it had to be the road I was on last year in the dark that did scare the hell out of me. I was with the ADO Gang though. Clem, Roland and Ron got me through that area. Without them, I would have probably not seen where to turn off. There were no streetlights at all.

Just good for folks to be aware, Deb, by the way, and I think good to discuss. It helps those who are riding plan. A light on the helmet as well as the handlebars would be what I would have had this year if I were riding. The helmet light makes reading the route slip easier.

Oh, and I am one who finishes doubles in the dark, so for me, important info. :)

ME...we went through this road (in reverse) last year in the morning. It's the left turn at Cook's Corner off of Santiago Canyon Road. This year it will be at the end of the route and we will descend down from Plano Trabuco into the Trabuco Canyon (I'm assuming) rest stop, which was rest stop #1 last year, where we met up again and left together.

Oh. Well then it's not that other road with no streetlights that scared the hell of me but Clem, Roland and Ron got me through then? :p

Oh. Well then it's not that other road with no streetlights that scared the hell of me but Clem, Roland and Ron got me through then? :p

I think your talking about Temescal Canyon Road from Lake Elsinore to Corona. Very dark at night indeed.

I think your talking about Temescal Canyon Road from Lake Elsinore to Corona. Very dark at night indeed.

Yes! That's it. (like I really remember the name :p) It was so dark and cars were very close to the shoulder. That road I could have done without. But otherwise, I liked the route and ride (organization, volunteers, etc.). I was lucky I got with the ADO guys for sure, which upped the enjoyment factor considerably.

Lights on helmets? Lights on handlebars? What is this, the Butterfred Double?

Lights on helmets? Lights on handlebars? What is this, the Butterfred Double?

You going to sign up to find out? :p

Hell, when you live in Bakersfield where every Red Neck with a 4X4 is trying to run over your @$$ this stretch might be a welcomed relief. I did this stretch 3 years ago when we did it as the Butterflood, I had no problems.

Lights on helmets? Lights on handlebars? What is this, the Butterfred Double?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
:-)

I don't think I've ever done a double where I've said I've had too much light.:rolleyes:

Just good for folks to be aware, Deb, by the way, and I think good to discuss. It helps those who are riding plan. A light on the helmet as well as the handlebars would be what I would have had this year if I were riding. The helmet light makes reading the route slip easier.

I completely agree, ME. It's great to discuss and plan. I was just pointing out, from the perspective of the ride organizer, that it's simply not possible to create a perfect route with perfect conditions. Folks have to decide for themselves what challenges they can and cannot deal with.

The good thing is, there's something out there for everyone - even if it ISN'T Butterfield (or Butterfred, or Butterwhatever)!

:-)
PS -
we ARE changing the name of the event for 2009; but the route will stay the same.

I completely agree, ME. It's great to discuss and plan. I was just pointing out, from the perspective of the ride organizer, that it's simply not possible to create a perfect route with perfect conditions. Folks have to decide for themselves what challenges they can and cannot deal with.
.

Deb, it's hard to decide that when we don't have access to the route slip until the night before. ;)

Deb, it's hard to decide that when we don't have access to the route slip until the night before. ;)

We're not providing route sheets in advance. Here are a few reasons - but the list is not all inclusive:

They're proprietary - and we don't want riders who aren't participating to have them. Very, very few, if any, organizers post the route sheets on their websites. We're not going to either.

They're subject to change at the last minute due to permit issues, weather, construction, etc.

Riders will print them for their family and friends and we'll have an even MORE out-of-control private SAG problem. Private SAG is a HUGE problem for all organizers. It's a liability nightmare, creates problems with checkpoint traffic, and also creates an unfair advantage to whoever is being helped.

Our ride descriptions are fairly detailed. If someone has a specific question, they can ask it via email. Unless it's the day before the event and we're already in transit to it, we generally respond to emails within 24 hours.

All for now. Gotta keep packing! Putting on these events is WORK WORK WORK!!! Way more than most of you will ever know...
;-)

I:-)
PS -
we ARE changing the name of the event for 2009; but the route will stay the same.

Oh, now you've done peed me off, lady. WHAT!!!!! You most certainly may NOT change the name. Otherwise when it rains, we won't be able to call it Butterflood. Take it back this minute!

:p:p:D