Living Car Free - Affordable Housing

So... you attack me because you think I spent too much on bikes, then you attack me because I didn't.


Attack? WTH, grow up! Read the posts on the thread, fella. Read the reference to Doug5150's post.
The thread was about affordable; you decided to derail it with your gratuitous morality ranting about what purchases are "right".
And do you really believe your car free "status" gives you the bona fides/credentialsto make pronouncements about which products are right and wrong purchase choices for everybody else? Make sure you keep your helmet tightened down; you might fall off your high horse.

Attack? WTH, grow up! Read the posts on the thread, fella. Read the reference to Doug5150's post.
The thread was about affordable; you decided to derail it with your gratuitous morality ranting about what purchases are "right".
And do you really believe your car free "status" gives you the bona fides/credentialsto make pronouncements about which products are right and wrong purchase choices for everybody else? Make sure you keep your helmet tightened down; you might fall off your high horse.

Actually... I made no 'morality' rant at all. Merely stated what 'right-sized' meant.

Then I asked a question... Does anybody need a McMansion? They are arguably a serious problem in our country from many standpoints.


they look out of place when built into existing neighborhoods, and ruin the character of neighborhoods
when built as suburbs they increase the dependency on cars
they cost a lot more to heat/cool (Thus using finite resources unnecessarily)
They're harder to maintain (More expensive, and requiring more finite resources)
They're expensive... they're going to be (already ARE?) very hard to sell in the housing downturn we are currently starting into
They lead to a serious lack of affordable housing (Most of the new construction houses in the past few years have been aimed at 3-4 bedroom houses with 2,3 or MORE car garages)


I'm already seeing a LOT of ads on craigslist, etc. from people wanting to rent out rooms in their large, very nice houses in the suburbs... the problem is that they're so far from everything! Once you factor in increased fuel costs, someone renting a room or portion of a house like that really isn't saving much (if anything) over living much closer in to the city.

I've never wanted to own a house like that... I'd be perfectly happy with a little two bedroom house on a city block with a small yard. I have, however known several people that have gone broke trying to afford such a house... Foreclosure isn't a fun process. :(

In the context of affordable housing, comparing the purchase of a bike, even a $1200 one is a poor comparison. You buy a bike once. You will be paying for for that oversized house for possibly thirty years and the other expenses that go with it for as long as you live in it.

Bike has no:

property taxes: The difference between a 1200 foot house and a 2700 foot one would probably buy a $1200 bike and then some every year in most areas.

Interest cost: Many $1200 bikes

Insurance: The difference here would probably buy 1/2 a $1200 bike every year

maintenence (tiny cost compared to a house) Probably another 1/2 a bike.

heating: there's a bike

cooling: probably another bike

I'm not saying that anyone can't spend their money on whatever pleases them. But, when you look around at most of the newer houses on the market these days they are all the 2500 foot and up mcmansions. People seem to have accepted that all this space is necessary and then can't understand why housing isn't affordable for them. If Chevies and Toyotas were suddenly gone and all we could buy was Mercedes, not many of us would be able to afford cars either.

Rik

To fully comprehend the full true meaning of "right sized" one must understand ,at the gut
level, the meaning of "Enough".

Failure of that understanding leads to a paradigm governed by consumerism and has
nothing whatsoever to do with"worring about how other people spend their money".
Nothing at all.........

This post is a fairly good illustration of an understanding of "right sized"

Looking back on my experience when I was trying to buy a house, it's really not surprising that the country is in the housing crisis that it is.

I was in the Navy, and making a pretty decent amount of money... the wife and I were looking to buy a house near Norfolk, Virginia. We talked to several different agents, looking for something in the $60-$80k range (Yes, there were a lot of decent houses available at the time in that range)... The agents, knowing what rank I was in the military and thereby approximately how much I was making all kept showing me houses in the $120k+ range. :mad:

I finally got pissed off and quit trying to buy a house... something that I really regret now.

Edit: And yes, you see the same thing happen in all areas of sales... at least, all areas where the sales person receives a commission.

I worked at CompUSA for a while in sales... I was the number one sales person in my store... not because I pushed people to buy things, but because I listened to what they had to say, found out what their intended use was, and recommended a good (ie: 'right-sized') system for their intended tasks. MOST of the time the right system WASN'T the most expensive system in the store. :eek:

By making sure that the customers got exactly what they needed, they were very willing to come back when they were looking for something else, and they'd ask for me.

These areas aren't quite as affordable, but they're all great car-free areas:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c269/AzCowboy/Denver.jpg

I grew up in that middle circle in the 1930s. Those houses are quite a bit older than I, and I'm 80 y/o. The last time I went through there the neighborhoods looked well kept.

Bob Baxter
Walnut Ridge, Ar. where housing is affordable and the whole town is a good neighborhood.

One of the problems with the real estate market is that the people showing the houses and pushing the more expensive houses (Because that's what gets them the biggest commissions) have no vested interest in making sure that the people can actually AFFORD the house... or that it's the house they'll want to stay in for 20, 30 years or more...

They made their commission, right? What do they care if the mortgage company forecloses in a year? I seriously doubt that most of a real estate agents customers are going to be looking to buy another house within a few years, so not a whole lot of repeat customers... why not push for the biggest commission you can get while you have the chance, right?

--- NOTE ---

By no means do I intend to imply that ALL real estate agents are heartless, greedy bastages... or even most... but there ARE a lot out there that worry about selling the biggest house possible... maybe they don't even think about the consequences... or at least, they DIDN'T think about them. Now that the mortgage companies are in crisis, who knows what's going to happen...

I grew up in that middle circle in the 1930s. Those houses are quite a bit older than I, and I'm 80 y/o. The last time I went through there the neighborhoods looked well kept.

Bob Baxter
Walnut Ridge, Ar. where housing is affordable and the whole town is a good neighborhood.

Baker neighborhood... I would LOVE to live there! My wife and I looked at a tiny 1 bedroom apartment there... by the time they included the 'heating surcharge' and pet rent, they wanted nearly $700 a month... which we just weren't able to afford at the time. :(

I do love the neighborhood, though.

"right-sized" means a couple not buying a 3 bedroom house with den, family room, study, game room, media room, etc. ;)

Does anyone really NEED a 5,000 sq ft McMansion?
It's not about what one needs, it's the freedom to spend the money one earns on whatever one considers to be desirable.

http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/watermelon/
~

Baker neighborhood... I would LOVE to live there! My wife and I looked at a tiny 1 bedroom apartment there... by the time they included the 'heating surcharge' and pet rent, they wanted nearly $700 a month... which we just weren't able to afford at the time. :(

I do love the neighborhood, though.

My Mother paid $15 a month for a 6 room 2 story terrace(multiplex) at 180 So. Cherokee. We had huge vacant lots, railroad tracks, a dump, and a hobo jungle. The best place (in my mind) imaginable for a kid to grow up. My Elementary school, at W. Byers pl. and Bannock, has been turned into a condominium, but the last time I looked, Byers Jr. High (middle school now) was still in operation. Denver in the 30s and 40s was a wondrous place. It hasn't been the same since they took the street cars away. :( :)

Bob Baxter

It's not about what one needs, it's the freedom to spend the money one earns on whatever one considers to be desirable.

http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/watermelon/
~

Ok... let's take that argument even further: What if what I consider desirable is to spend all my time and money hunting exotic endangered animals?

Or even more extreme: What if someone desires to spend all their time/money/energy killing people.

They should be free to do that?

At some point, morality HAS to come into the picture, and you have to do what's right. The only real argument seems to be where to draw that line. ;)

My Mother paid $15 a month for a 6 room 2 story terrace(multiplex) at 180 So. Cherokee. We had huge vacant lots, railroad tracks, a dump, and a hobo jungle. The best place (in my mind) imaginable for a kid to grow up. My Elementary school, at W. Byers pl. and Bannock, has been turned into a condominium, but the last time I looked, Byers Jr. High (middle school now) was still in operation. Denver in the 30s and 40s was a wondrous place. It hasn't been the same since they took the street cars away. :( :)

Bob Baxter

And they're just now bringing them back as the light rail... took them long enough to figure out what a mistake that was. :(

I probably won't be here when they get the next light rail line built out... my wife is already wanting to move on.

Ok... let's take that argument even further: What if what I consider desirable is to spend all my time and money hunting exotic endangered animals?

Or even more extreme: What if someone desires to spend all their time/money/energy killing people.

They should be free to do that?
The first example fails; someone else killing animals generally doesn't have any impact on you, unless the animals in question are your property. I wouldn't tend to agree with the philosophy of driving a species to extinction, but I could see where logically it could be inadvertently accomplished.

As for your second example, you are trying to equate having a large house with something that imposes a direct cost on others--something you have yet to prove that owning a large house does.


At some point, morality HAS to come into the picture, and you have to do what's right. The only real argument seems to be where to draw that line.
And I bet it's really convenient if you can draw it far away from anything you enjoy.
~

The first example fails; someone else killing animals generally doesn't have any impact on you, unless the animals in question are your property. I wouldn't tend to agree with the philosophy of driving a species to extinction, but I could see where logically it could be inadvertently accomplished.

As for your second example, you are trying to equate having a large house with something that imposes a direct cost on others--something you have yet to prove that owning a large house does.


And I bet it's really convenient if you can draw it far away from anything you enjoy.
~

At the present time Man is the caretaker of the earth with responsiblities to care for ALL
creatures. To say otherwise just reduces you to less than a predator who only kill to eat.

There are just so many resources on the planet to share. To take more than your share is
just wrong because it steals from the poor or less fortunate.

Like it or not....Humans ARE responsible to each other as well as the planet. There is no
escaping these facts.

...There are just so many resources on the planet to share. To take more than your share is
just wrong because it steals from the poor or less fortunate. ...
Steals what?

Are you stealing from the poor when you go to a bike shop and buy bicycle stuff?
And if not,
then why do you say it's "stealing" when somebody goes to Home Depot and buys all the materials for a cavernous house?
~

Steals what?

Are you stealing from the poor when you go to a bike shop and buy bicycle stuff?
And if not,
then why do you say it's "stealing" when somebody goes to Home Depot and buys all the materials for a cavernous house?
~

Your reply tells me that you need more work to understand the simple concept of "Enough"
before you have any hope of understanding what I'm talking about. ;)

Your reply tells me that you need more work to understand the simple concept of "Enough"
before you have any hope of understanding what I'm talking about. ;)
Perhaps you should stop using it as a term for passing judgment on others.
It appears that you don't understand it either, since you can't seem to explain it in real terms.
~

Perhaps you should stop using it as a term for passing judgment on others.
It appears that you don't understand it either, since you can't seem to explain it in real terms.
~

:rolleyes: Oh brother............