Advocacy & Safety - low traffic

Just wondering about the low traffic on the safety and advocacy forum.

Seems to me, that advocacy is important to cycling because a large section of the general public have misinformed opinions about cycling.

*Are the members here really lacksidasical on the subject,

*or is the way the "debates" held on how best to advocate, so off putting, that no one cares much to spend much time here,

*or, is it that few think the "debates" held here have little to do with informing the general public on we are beneficial to them?

Well...

Suffice to say that if most folks here expressed themselves more like you, I'd be a lot more comfortable posting.

The level of aggression and rudeness here is really shocking to me, and incomprehensible.

This includes the Mods.

Part of it too is that 90% of the threads degenerate into the same tired topics such as whether to wear a helmet (or not), whether to ride VC (or not), whether all motorists should be exterminated (or not), etc. The way it usually works is someone starts a thread and it gets about 5 well-reasoned comments before the thread gets hijacked.

So basically little actual advocacy can take place before the threads get polluted.

Of course, I think there's possibly a simpler reason as to why the forums are less trafficked lately - it's winter, and I bet a lot of cyclists don't bother playing on the forums when they're not riding. Not sure if it's lack of interest or general shame. ;)

I dont know why I come here.
I always do though. I agree with very little of
what I read, and judging by responses to some of my posts, people
here dont agree with me, either. I think the majority of the people who
post here would have very different personalities than mine in real life.
I 'advocate' differently. I wave to people, talk to peds, signal cars
its OK to right hook me, stay out of peoples way, etc....I want people to
maybe think after looking at me, bicycle commuting might actually
be more fun than the 'work' they might think it is. I think in our cause for
equality we win them over first , then hit them with the lane taking,
right-of-way, rules stuff, not visa-versa.

I dont know why I come here.
I always do though. I agree with very little of
what I read, and judging by responses to some of my posts, people
here dont agree with me, either. I think the majority of the people who
post here would have very different personalities than mine in real life.
I 'advocate' differently. I wave to people, talk to peds, signal cars
its OK to right hook me, stay out of peoples way, etc....I want people to
maybe think after looking at me, bicycle commuting might actually
be more fun than the 'work' they might think it is. I in our cause for
equality we win them over first , then hit them with the lane taking,
right-of-way, rules stuff, not visa-versa.
Here you preach the same kind of philosophy of cooperation that I advocate, though we differ on some of the details. It's not okay to hook me - but I don't allow that to happen so it's a moot point - and I do stay out of people's way, when it's safe and reasonable to do so, but not when doing so gets in the way of me getting to my destination safely and reasonable.

Now, is this an example of what Mr. Underbridge was talking about? Is this hijacking the thread?

I don't know why the traffic has been low here, except it's not because of me. I haven't been posting much here lately either. For example, I haven't started a thread in A&S since early October.

Great posts!

Great ideas!

I think a lot of the anti-car emotions expressed here (by those who express them) come from the often outrageously violent conduct of motorists, and this leads to a certain degree of radicalization for some.

What mystifies me is why we can't speak to one another civilly, and without personal attacks, accusations, rudeness, cruelty, etc.

We're all over the age of 12 here, and the conduct of the name-callers is utterly baffling to me.

I haven't been posting much here lately either.

191 posts in the last month and 43 in the past week = "not posting much"?

Some of us regulars are too accustomed to each other. It would help if you newcomers would point out inappropriate behavior when you see it.

191 posts in the last month and 43 in the past week = "not posting much"?
Well, it's more than I realized, but it's still pretty light for me. I mean, this is going to count as one, and it took me 20 seconds.

Great posts!

Great ideas!

I think a lot of the anti-car emotions expressed here (by those who express them) come from the often outrageously violent conduct of motorists, and this leads to a certain degree of radicalization for some.

What mystifies me is why we can't speak to one another civilly, and without personal attacks, accusations, rudeness, cruelty, etc.

We're all over the age of 12 here, and the conduct of the name-callers is utterly baffling to me.


This is why we do not have the clout an NRA type organization
might have. We cannot even come to agreement on the simplest
of issues. We are seen as weak tinkerbells or DUI bums by the public.
How does that change ?? I dont know, but unfortunately I dont
believe it will change anytime soon.

Just wondering about the low traffic on the safety and advocacy forum.

Seems to me, that advocacy is important to cycling because a large section of the general public have misinformed opinions about cycling.

*Are the members here really lacksidasical on the subject,

*or is the way the "debates" held on how best to advocate, so off putting, that no one cares much to spend much time here,

*or, is it that few think the "debates" held here have little to do with informing the general public on we are beneficial to them?






I think, and believe me, this is only my opinion. I think that the members here on this forum have got almost nothing to do with "advocacy" or safety.... I think that most people who come here and express their opinions have little to give to the "biking" world. I think that most people here are only here to spout their concept of the way things ought to be, If you ride everyday, and you live....than you you have a story to tell. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to ride. You know what's good for you and if you keep it up, then, it's great. I don't, and never will see the reason for all the debate.

Sorry about the extra you....

I guess different places have different attitudes.

As much as I don't like some of the things have been done here, I have to give it to the local advocacy groups to get cycling more accepted in our province.

The courts up here accept us as equal (for the most part), I think the average motorist (at least in the city) accepts cyclists, I just wish they'd drive better.

Maybe it is just the time of year that keeps the traffic down. I know I'm busy.

I wish I could say the same for St. Pete, but I hear more, and more, that people are getting run over on their bikes. Down here, it's not just a matter of looking, it's a matter of looking everywhere....because you have to, It's not enough to just ride your lane anymore, people really do not want bikes on the road.

Sub: Why don't people like bike rider's????????!!!!!!!!

GREAT question!!!

Because we are noble & wise?

Beautiful & superior in every way???

A nagging reminder that one need not spend years in a hideous slave-cage?

Sub: Why don't people like bike rider's????????!!!!!!!!


Very simple.

We hold people up and it is not an 'acceptable' hold-up like a red lite or waiting for a
closer parking spot to open up.

Really. By far and away the most and coincedentally only complaint about
road riding bicyclers I have ever heard is that we hold people up. Forget that it might only be for
5 seconds give or take, its the unacceptability of the situation. We are not worthy of slowing for.
:rolleyes:

5 Seconds is nothing to the people who regularly "obey" the so-called law...There is nothing, neither wise nor noble, That will compensate for the misgivings of idiots...............................

I wave to people, talk to peds, signal cars its OK to right hook me, stay out of peoples way, etc...


If you ride everyday, and you live....than you you have a story to tell.

I think this is very important. The simple act of riding. Law already establishes our right to the road, as long as people exercise that right, it becomes a political point to uphold that right. Hopefuly, acceptance will follow

"Just wondering about the low traffic on the safety and advocacy forum."

Personally, I go to the main list of forums and just scan through and see what's interesting. So it's not like I sit on this one forum.

As to low traffic- there could be multiple reasons. One is that the number of posts on a topic is not going to be connected to the to the importance of the topic. If everyone agrees on a topic, you won't have posts on that. So you don't see a multitude of "Let's don't get cancer" posts. Secondly, the posts will somewhat relate to new happenings or experiences in the topic. A lot of the items discussed here, such as helmet laws or bike lanes, have been kicked around for 20 years or more. In contrast, when you look at the bicycle itself, there are always new products or people discovering old products, and that keeps the posting level up.

Just wondering about the low traffic on the safety and advocacy forum.



Sub: Why don't people like bike rider's????????!!!!!!!!


GREAT question!!!

Because we are noble & wise?

Beautiful & superior in every way???

A nagging reminder that one need not spend years in a hideous slave-cage?

Over the top rhetoric/behavior and bad/wacky/counterproductive (for bicycling advocacy) rants/actions from a relative few characters?

Sub: Why don't people like bike rider's????????!!!!!!!!

For one thing, there are way too many rude, scoff-law riders. They give the rest of us a bad name. Don't you get irritated when you are driving and some jerk forces you into the oncoming lane to pass, and then passes you while you are stopped at the red light, which he runs, and then makes you do it all over again in the next block? I do.

Just a thought. In the real world I know some of the people who are actively involved in the local advocacy group. Many of them are such intense people. Maybe they need to be if they are butting heads with politicians, the DMV, and hostile motorists. Some of them give me the feeling that "If you are not with us then you are against us." Yes, the work needs to be done. I just hang around the edges, help in a low key way, and try to be a good example when I ride. When a real activist gets in my face I back off for a while until I cool down then try again.

Outside of riding every day, I tend to react to press that paints cycling in a negative light. I'm more reactive than proactive.

I've been published literally dozens of times in newspapers and magazines. I haven't been on TV though.

I'm concerned about the general publics perceptions towards cycling.

I think this forum has helped me refine my arguments and presentations.

As an example as to how the press might make things move a little easier, I posted on a bike lane problem on this forum recently. Previously, I had another issue in the same place dealing with the same people. YVR agreed with me about the problem I brought up and decided to change things because of my questions, but it was very hard to get any response and it took a long time to get a commitment. Further, it's been a year and they still haven't got around to make the change.

This time, over a period of days, I called the cops first, wrote 2 letters to 2 papers that were published, then I called YVR. YVR had had a call from the cops and they were already movong on changing things. Public perception made a difference. It wasn't just 1 guy calling to complain. It was the cops and possible negative publicity on how YVR wasn't making things as safe as they could that made the difference here.

Is this the thread where bicyclists go to confess awareness of their cycling inferiorities?

I do not spend much time in A&S, but I enjoy our exchanges. Much of A&S is like religion -- various sects hold various parts of the truth and cling to various beliefs, but every intellectually humble and honest person admits to being a lifelong seeker and a student, as well as a teacher. In cycling, I have two principal interests:
1) What can I do to protect my right to use public roadways?
2) What can I do to minimize my chance of being struck by a motor vehicle, irrespective of who is at fault? [Once is quite enough, believe me!]

HH and I have our disputes, but I think our goals are similar, and I heartily acknowledge his sincere efforts to teach cyclist how to make themselves more visible to motorists. A&S also helps alert me to dangerous and/or asinine proposals by well- (and ill-) meaning politicians -- everything from "ride on the left side of the road in rural parts of Montana," to "ride to the right of a right turn only or right turn permitted lane in Portland OR," to "bikes banned from XYZ Street or downtown Podunk."

...HH and I have our disputes, but I think our goals are similar, and I heartily acknowledge his sincere efforts to teach cyclist how to make themselves more visible to motorists...

Me too. I don't always agree with posters, but I think we're looking towards the same goals.

I really enjoy A&S. I have have learned many things here! :eek:

Thank you Noisebeam for such great real world examples from your commute! In one thread you pointed to a website about "traffic calming" engineering- that sure opened my eyes! :)

Thank you HH for your clarity and reasoned comments in spite of the poisonous barbs and hatred that you endure. I am a better and safer cyclist because of them.

I am always interested in "crash analysis" as I seek to avoid them. Thanks to all our posters from Portland Oregon to help us understand all the noise from up there this year.

All of us are forced to be advocates , if only occasionally, simply by interacting with those around us- friends, relatives and co-workers. By my being exposed to all you cyclists who are so different from me (genic, sbhikes ;)) in how and what and why you ride, you have made me more effective in encouraging other folks right where they are. Without disdain, and with much better empathy to their worries and concerns.

Merry Christmas A&S! -ChipSeal

I, for one, have learned from the information found midst the noise here.

I'd not attribute societal hostility towards cycling/cyclists to advocacy styles.

I think that's a fight we have internally, and that motorists/most people are completely unaware of.

Likewise, the (potentially suicidal) "bad" behavior of cyclists is no more infuriating to the caged than the (potentially homicidal) bad behavior of other motorists.

It's just that it's easier to extrapolate the "bad" behavior of one cyclist to ALL cyclists, since we're still fairly scarce out there.

But how this "bad behavior" manifests itself & triggers the perpetually enraged caged can be as varied as the structure of a snowflake.

We "slow" traffic down, and represent to many motorists the irritating possibility of a lawsuit if they don't go out of their way to avoid us. (If they're not speeding/too drunk/angry/distracted to even see us, that is.)

And I really do believe that motorists - on a very deep level - understand how insane the car is, and their own physical, spirtual, and economic enslavement is felt that much more keenly when they see a cyclist glide by. (Perhaps a reminder of the freedom, joy and simplicity they've left far behind.)

Also, I should modify my comments about rudeness.

I've been spending time on P&R, and that forum's bullying ways are clearly NOT reflective of the generally more mature discourse elsewhere here on BF.

1) What can I do to protect my right to use public roadways?
2) What can I do to minimize my chance of being struck by a motor vehicle, irrespective of who is at fault?


This is why I am here also.

East Hill

One reason I have not been post here much is the daily updates are now being caught by my spam filter. Not to mention that I am getting very tired of some of the insults being thrown around.

Interesting after I mention that BF is being caught by my spam filter they have returned to my regular inbox. If a mod knows what BF did to rectify this I would be interested to hear about it via a PM.

Thanks.

there are only four things posted in this subforum which make any sense, the rest is hogwash. i lurk but go insane after reading a few posts.

here are the four things. nothing else matters. n o t h i n g

1) wear a helmet
2) use bright lights at night
3) always follow the local laws and rules of the road. [breaking a law to save your skin
in an emergency is not breaking the law, it is saving your ass]
4) look out for yourself, no one else is looking out for you


anything besides these 4 things doesn't make any sense and
causes cranial implosions

I've noticed a drop off in the number of postings on UK forums. I suspect that it is because:

1) the ill-tempered and bad-mannered responses of some posters
2) the repetitive nature of the arguments.

(2) is, of course, partly caused by newcomers to cycling/commuting who ask the same questions, so the usual suspects, myself included, repeat our own views.

However, (1) probably puts many off. I find the vituperation and verbal sneering irritating as they say more about the forumers than their arguments. I also suspect that some of that ilk use the forums to express themselves in ways they would not do so in person.

Perhaps it is a generation (age 67) thing, but I find such behaviour unnecessary and rather sad.

In the meantime, I'll continue to put forward my views as temperately as possible because I believe that they have validity and because I believe that that validity is backed up by experience, thinking about that experience and as much research as I can easily lay my hands on.

I don't get put off by the ill-tempered and bad-mannered responses of some of the posters as much as the poor reasoning and logic that usually accompanies the ill-tempered and bad-mannered responses.

I find that I too, will continue to put forward my views because I believe that the validity of them is backed up by experience, thinking about that experience and research on the topics I've posted on.

I wonder how many of the the ill-tempered and bad-mannered responses are from younger posters?

I haven't been around much because I've been more consumed with another hobby.

For one thing, there are way too many rude, scoff-law riders. They give the rest of us a bad name. Don't you get irritated when you are driving and some jerk forces you into the oncoming lane to pass, and then passes you while you are stopped at the red light, which he runs, and then makes you do it all over again in the next block? I do.

That's why I sometimes say, "Never forget what it's like to be a cager."

Advocacy is one thing, but most of the attitudes I see around here that piss me off are so selfish that they sound just like the cagers they hate.

I don't like A&S because of the many limited, one-sided experiences. So, I mainly poke in here to knock some sense into people's heads and remind them that the world extends beyond two wheels.

Don't you get irritated when you are driving and some jerk forces you into the oncoming lane to pass, and then passes you while you are stopped at the red light, which he runs, and then makes you do it all over again in the next block? I do.

Sorry waldo, don't you really mean that you choose to pass him? If passing slower traffic is such a hardship, find a different route.

Sub: Why don't people like bike rider's????????!!!!!!!!


For one thing, there are way too many rude, scoff-law riders. They give the rest of us a bad name. Don't you get irritated...

Yah, there are too many, but I think there are plenty of jerks in cars and trucks too.

My wife has a theory that says some people just don't like it if they think someone else is getting a better deal than they are. Maybe those jerks are just jealous of us bikers.

Sorry waldo, don't you really mean that you choose to pass him? If passing slower traffic is such a hardship, find a different route.

No, he's talking about what it's like to be a driver getting passed repeatedly by a slower cyclist who's running lights to get ahead again.

Just wondering about the low traffic on the safety and advocacy forum.
Hi Closetbiker,

In my case, I've sort of moved away from debates here, but not entirely. It seems that so many posters here already have their minds made up, so the debates seem to continue to recycle old arguments over and over (with the few added "spicey ingredients" of predictable personal attacks and off-topic remarks.)

But I agree, the A & S forum should be a valuable forum for discussion and for encouraging others to ride. Solutions to common problems should be able to be brought forth from these discussions, and sometimes are.

The main problem of debating here, I think, is that most people here have either been riding without incident so they don't want to change... or, they've had problems, made changes, and can't understand why anyone else would want to do what they used to do.

All the studies & statistics, too, are perceived to be managed so that they give a particular result. For every study that says one thing, you can find another that says the opposite.

Really, IMO, most debates here are pretty pointless.

I think part of the problem of debating in advocacy is one can miss the big picture by arguing the details.

Recently, on my local cycling advocacy group board I asked if any one can think that the confiscation of a bike by police because the rider was not wearing a helmet was a bit excessive and would any one think there could be some support to try to amend this part of the legislation.

It fell with a big fat thunk. No one responded.

I can see opposing views on the wearing of helmets, but here we have a group that is supposed to be advocating for cyclists, trying to get more people on bikes, and showing that by riding a bike the individual is making everything better in many ways and they can't oppose the idea of bicycle confiscation because of the arguments involved.

Sometimes, advocates don't really advocate.

Sometimes, advocates don't really advocate.


The problem I see is that the 'experts' and 'advocates' are too shortsighted.
They think what works for them in their miniscule sphere of reality or
5 mile commute should work for everyone, everywhere. Its absolute
insanity to think you are going to attract people to cycling by telling
them to take a lane on a 45mph, two lane road as people do here.
The common good is rarely taken into account. If someone wants to
get out on a bike and ride bike lanes they should be encouraged, not
barraged by hypotheticals and stories of death and mayhem in those
lanes. Im as close to bike-only, car-free as one can be and agree
with almost none of the 'advocating' or advice here.

well, the kind of thing that bugs me is, for example in my locality, in the eyes of the law, a cyclist riding responsibly, but without a helmet, poses as much danger to society as a drunk driver, and the local cycling advocates see nothing wrong enough with that to make them do something about it.

Boggles the mind.

I dont like to talk about helmets because Im very superstitious that way, but
I feel that a rider with a mirror might need a helmet .0001 in his cycling
career, statistically speaking but a guy without a mirror, but wearing a
helmet might have a 40% chance of needing the services of that helmet on
any ride.

My own personal agenda :
I never see the zealotious support of mirror use I do for helmets. I wonder why ?

but looking at the big picture, I would hope advocates can agree that all things considered, to simply ride a bike is a good thing, advantageous to do, that it's benefits outweigh it's risks, but I think there are many "advocates" that are convinced that the risks outweigh the benefits.

I wonder how many cars would be sold if the salesmen concentrated on the death and injuries to people involved in MVA's on the roads in their sales pitches?

My own personal agenda :
I never see the zealotious support of mirror use I do for helmets. I wonder why ?

Dunno. Newer? Helmets have been around a lot longer.

I don't think it's fair to paint people who think helmets are a good idea as "zealots", but by that standard there are a lot of mirror "zealots" around here. Me included, use mine every day.

Could also be that the helmet is the best chance at a catch-all fail-safe, if not a perfect one (nothing is). The helmet might be useful in situations you just can't avoid even if you're paying attention, it could help when you just plain screw up, etc. And no, I'm not saying it's 100% effective, but it gives you a better chance when well used.

I think the ultimate point is no piece of safety equipment is perfect, so don't rely on just one. I likes my mirror, I likes my helmet.

but looking at the big picture, I would hope advocates can agree that all things considered, to simply ride a bike is a good thing, advantageous to do, that it's benefits outweigh it's risks, but I think there are many "advocates" that are convinced that the risks outweigh the benefits.

I wonder how many cars would be sold if the salesmen concentrated on the death and injuries to people involved in MVA's on the roads in their sales pitches?

I agree that the forum gets bogged down in petty little arguments, that don't really mean anything, except that the writers get to blow off a little bit. The point is, and has always been--ride. If you have a story to tell, after riding, then find the appropriate place to tell it. The A and S section is for what it says. There is a seperate section for helmets, now, and that is a good thing. As for "benefits" and "risks", that happens every day you wake up. Advocacy and safety doesn't have to be about all the death and the cyclist-as-vigilante as some people would have you believe. Let's get back to what it was intended for---advocacy is about helping cyclists establish their right to be on the road with motor vehicles. Safety is about helping those cyclists to do that without getting hurt or killed.