Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - to count or not too count?

so my question to everyone is this. do you or do you not count the miles you do inside on a trainer to your annual milage?

i ask this because i have set 5000 miles as my goal for the year. that being said i live in wisconsin and i in my final year of college. since i live in wisconsin my days to go biking from dec through march are hard to come by and even during the year it is not easy to put forth much time on my bike. add in that i am currently in my training stages of becoming a firefighter it will be hard to find enough days where i can average out my miles to be able to be done each day. should i only count outdoor riding or should i include indoors as well on my trainer?

I count my trainer "miles" unofficially, but not officially. So, if I were to make a goal of 5000 miles for the year, I would only count outside miles toward it.

However, I would keep track of my indoor "miles" for my own purposes ... mainly just to remind myself of how often I rode inside through the winter.

Yes, it can be difficult in snowy areas to get your miles in, but several years I got 6000+ living in Manitoba and Alberta, so it can be done.

It seems silly to set a goal of "miles" and then consider it fulfilled by riding a stationary bike. Seems to me you could just as easily count the "miles" you ride while sitting on the john- say you're coasting downhill during that time.

Time on trainer. Miles on a stationary trainer is an oxymoron.

Why not go by hours and multiply by your average speed for all the riding you did on the road the previous year?

so my question to everyone is this. do you or do you not count the miles you do inside on a trainer to your annual milage? It depends, though I generally don't.

What is the purpose of your annual mileage goal? Vanity? General Fitness metric? Event Qualification?

If it's vanity, do whatever makes you feel good. If you can look at yourself in the mirror and take pride in a 5000 mile season with 2000 trainer miles, then fine. If the trainer miles feel cheap to you, then count it as half. It's your ego, and if you really want to please it, you'll find ways to do so.

If it's general fitness, then it sounds like you've got a lot of other stuff going on (Firefighter qualification? Sounds intense) so maybe you should look at some other metric for measuring aerobic fitness that includes cycling but isn't cycling-specific. Perhaps get a heart rate monitor, set monthly or weekly targets for being able to maintain certain amount of exercise effort (ie. jog at x speed or bike at y speed) at 75% or 80% of your max heart rate.

If it's event qualification, then I would personally discount trainer miles entirely, especially with regard to distance stuff. A trainer can be good for maintaining some level of physical fitness and strength, but there are a lot of other factors that go into distance riding that aren't developed by a trainer (particularly with mental fitness), and I usually wait until my first 'real' long ride after hibernation before assessing where I am in relation to my any annual goals.

On the flip side of the above argument, many people feel that trainer miles are harder than outdoor miles, because there is no ability to coast. Typically, I've heard that 1 hour on the trainer is equivalent to 1.5 hours on the road.

That being said, I'm not sure who makes the rules for annual mileage. Probably the same people who make up the century rules. (Completed within 24 hours or within on daylight period, with or without a meal, with or without sleep, whatever...)

On the flip side of the above argument, many people feel that trainer miles are harder than outdoor miles, because there is no ability to coast. Typically, I've heard that 1 hour on the trainer is equivalent to 1.5 hours on the road.



People say this to make themselves feel better about a task that is more difficult mentally, but not physically. Riding outside is more difficult because you've got weather, terrain, road conditions and all sorts of things to deal with.

If you compare the 24-hour road records with the 24-hour roller records, you'll see that indoor cycling smokes outdoor cycling. Why? Because it's easier.

http://www.ultracycling.com/records/timedrecords.html

If anything 1.5 hours on the trainer is equivalent to 1 hour on the road.

I keep track, but don't include them in any other counts. It's not apples to apples and if anything makes it harder to make sense out of month over month or year over year comparisons. Keepting track of time on the trainer is more useful because at least you can compare it to time on other aerobic equipment.

I use a spinner, and you'd better damn believe those miles are worth every bit as much as outdoor riding due to all the coasting you can do outdoors. If you want to be an elitist ******* and call not them worthy, whatever. I'd count them. I live in Wisconsin as well, and I've been strictly indoors now this month. What I can say is that all the indoor work I do makes me a hell of a lot stronger come outdoor season, and I'm strongly considering keep indoor a small part of the routine throughout the year.

This is a debate that'll go on forever. Sigh.

I have a good idea, we could install 90 tooth chainrings, set the trainers on no-resistance, rev our speed up to 100 mph, then we can get our monthly century done in only 1 hour!

I've enjoyed riding quite a bit more since taking off my cyclocomputer entirely.

People say this to make themselves feel better about a task that is more difficult mentally, but not physically. Riding outside is more difficult because you've got weather, terrain, road conditions and all sorts of things to deal with.

If you compare the 24-hour road records with the 24-hour roller records, you'll see that indoor cycling smokes outdoor cycling. Why? Because it's easier.

http://www.ultracycling.com/records/timedrecords.html

If anything 1.5 hours on the trainer is equivalent to 1 hour on the road.

True -- piling up MILES are easier on a trainer -- no weather factors, wind resistance, hills, etc. However, I stand by my reasoning that HOURS are harder on the trainer. Sure, I can go 'further' on the trainer, but six hours on the road is nothing compared to three on the trainer.

Mentally, three hours on the trainer is equivalent to at least 12 millenia in hell. I'd rather eat worms. But maybe that's just me -- thinking that cycling is supposed to be fun and all... :lol:

And by the way, how do you even begin to accurately measure miles on a trainer? With variable resistance, one person's mile can be so much easier than anothers.

If you want to be an elitist ******* and call not them worthy, whatever. I'd count them. I should say, as a point of clarification, that I don't think of trainer miles as inherently unworthy. I certainly see the logic in using a trainer to maintain fitness during the off-season, and when the weather is just too brutal for outdoor riding. It's just that I don't trust indoor odometer readouts as a metric for my preparedness -- which is why I don't personally count them. But if you find a method that works well for you then all the more power to you.

And by the way, how do you even begin to accurately measure miles on a trainer? With variable resistance, one person's mile can be so much easier than anothers.

You measure them the same as any outdoor mile: 5280 feet.
Variable resistance on a trainer may mean that one person does their mile at 150 Watts and another person decides to crank the resistance and do theirs at 400. How is that any different than one person riding the Chelan Century Challenge, and another riding some dead flat route in Florida? They both rode 100 miles.

And by the way, how do you even begin to accurately measure miles on a trainer? With variable resistance, one person's mile can be so much easier than anothers.

Same as on the road.

True -- piling up MILES are easier on a trainer -- no weather factors, wind resistance, hills, etc. However, I stand by my reasoning that HOURS are harder on the trainer. Sure, I can go 'further' on the trainer, but six hours on the road is nothing compared to three on the trainer.

You're right that six hours on the road is nothing compared to three on the trainer. 3 on the trainer is a piece of cake compared with 6 on the road. :)

The thing is that you can make trainer "miles" hard or easy ... just like outside, you can make outside miles harder by riding faster or choosing to ride hills, or you can make outside miles easier by slowing down or riding with a wind behind you.

The difference is often just a mental one. Some people find riding the trainer more mentally challenging. For me, after spending 13 years cycling in Manitoba where it is dead flat and there isn't much in the way of scenery ... trainer or outside bicycle, not much difference.

I count my trainer "miles" unofficially, but not officially. So, if I were to make a goal of 5000 miles for the year, I would only count outside miles toward it.

However, I would keep track of my indoor "miles" for my own purposes ... mainly just to remind myself of how often I rode inside through the winter.

Yes, it can be difficult in snowy areas to get your miles in, but several years I got 6000+ living in Manitoba and Alberta, so it can be done.


I'll just clarify to say that I count my trainer "miles" (actually more time than "miles") as exercise, much in the same way I count walking, swimming, and the other non-cycling things I do. You do burn calories when you ride the trainer, so it can be beneficial to count them if you are working on losing weight, etc. And they can help to keep you in shape, so riding the trainer is definitely not worthless, but it is not as good as riding outside.

"""Originally Posted by Pedal Wench If you want to be an elitist ******* and call not them worthy, whatever. I'd count them. """"

Whoa! I never said that! That's not my quote!!!


I should say, as a point of clarification, that I don't think of trainer miles as inherently unworthy. I certainly see the logic in using a trainer to maintain fitness during the off-season, and when the weather is just too brutal for outdoor riding. It's just that I don't trust indoor odometer readouts as a metric for my preparedness -- which is why I don't personally count them. But if you find a method that works well for you then all the more power to you.

Agreed -- a hilly, uphill century with a headwind will be harder than one that's all downhill with a tailwind and a group of domestiques all working to make your ride the easiest one possible. But, when someone says they did the "WHATEVER" century, anyone can see the elevation profile and get some sense of what was involved. Side by side, two people can have very different experiences on trainers in the exact same room.

That being said, I'm following a pretty rigorous training program, and most of my weekday workouts are on the trainer. However, I'm not measuring my workouts by distance, but by heartrate and time in zones. That's a more exact indicator of how the workout is going.

Well, really. So the Mileage Police tell us we're not supposed to turn our Polars on when we're on the trainer or rollers? Who gives a *****? At the end of the year, I look at my odometer and that's the mileage. If I ride more, I do more mileage. Goal? You want a goal, get a randonneuring medal. Otherwise fuggidaboudit. I've got a 500w resistance unit on my rollers, and they are probably about 1 or 2 mph faster than outside with the same HR. OTOH, roller HR is really suppressed over the same effort outside. 1:45 of endurance Z2 on the rollers and my legs are trashed this time of year. Outside, I'll ride 4 hours with an average HR 10 beats higher and feel about the same.

So just ride your bike, inside or outside. I do agree that it's not the same. Various stuff is harder in various ways. Just riding your trainer will not prepare you for a brevet. But not riding your trainer will also not help you when brevet season comes. More miles or time is better than fewer miles or time. If you keep track, you'll have some idea of how your prep is going. Otherwise, you won't.

"""Originally Posted by Pedal Wench If you want to be an elitist ******* and call not them worthy, whatever. I'd count them. """"

Whoa! I never said that! That's not my quote!!!

sorry, you're right. original edited for correction. that should teach me to be more careful about how I do the old cut-n-paste

so my question to everyone is this. do you or do you not count the miles you do inside on a trainer to your annual milage?
Sure.

Count or "record" all your fitness activities. Use a book or spreadsheet that allows to keep each kind of exercise you perform separately.Review your exercise patterns on a weekly and monthly basis.

Look to your old records for ideas about how you can design better "patterns" of workouts to get even fitter.

The single best measure of fitness considers both your capacity to perform "all-out work" and your ability to endure stress or perform continuous work for long periods of times.

Simply recording the distance performed during a workout is only part of any "fitness record." Record, your time spent exercising as well as any other data you can, such as HR, aches and pains and general attitude about the workout.

I say if you ride with the same intensity on the trainer as you do outside then count them. I count mine which seems to be a theme for those of us from Wisconsin.

For the "indoor miles don't count crowd" I have a question, If I ride a 200k hilly ride with 100k of climbing and 100k of descending how many kilometers count?

I see indoor miles as strictly cardio miles as I have a nice computerized Schwinn recumbent stationary bike. I don't feel the burn in my legs like I do outdoors, but I'm certainly burning the calories.

For the "indoor miles don't count crowd" I have a question, If I ride a 200k hilly ride with 100k of climbing and 100k of descending how many kilometers count?

What you've got there is the equivalent of a flat 200K! :D

what about roller trainers , some like mine are hard work ,:edit I count the K's

I do not count the miles on a trainer.

"For the "indoor miles don't count crowd" I have a question, If I ride a 200k hilly ride with 100k of climbing and 100k of descending how many kilometers count?"

It's not an issue of "indoor miles don't count", it's a matter of "stationary pedaling isn't milage". Milage implies a distance, a movement from place to place, which isn't happening. It's like counting time sitting at a desk as miles driven in your car; the effort may be the same in either case, but it would sure seem odd to count desk time as "milage". That doesn't mean you shouldn't train indoors or count the training whatever way you want, just that it seems odd to count it as miles ridden when you didn't go anywhere.

Why exactly do you need to go somewhere? Put it this way: If I rode for 90 minutes on my trainer and you stood there watching (not riding on a trainer), I have derived a benefit, a physical benefit from this activity. You have not. Calories were burned, muscles were exerted, everything that occurs during an outdoor ride, except for going form a point A to a point B. The roadie crowd seems to be unanimously anti-counting trainer mileage. I assert that it is beneficial and counts for something. It is not a yes or no issue.

You cannot equate sitting at a desk and driving in a car as similar activities. At a desk, you're not trying to go anywhere. On a trainer, you're trying to do something, or why would anyone actually use a trainer?

As I've stated in this thread, I get a great cardio benefit from my trainer. Much more so than if I did nothing at all, so it must count for something. The miles may not be 1:1, but they are something.

Oh yeah, count trainer time as exercise ... no one is disputing that there's exercise happening, and that you're burning calories, etc. But you aren't really going anywhere so counting them as kilometers or miles is a little strange.

I don't lump them in with my outdoor kilometers because when I get on my bicycle outside, I'm going somewhere ... I'm actually covering kilometers. But I do keep track of them for my own exercise reference, much like I keep track of other non-cycling forms of exercise.

Note that it is not just an inside vs. outside debate: If you rode inside a velodrome, or had a basement or barn big enough to ride round and round and round, you could count the distance you cover there as kilometers because although you're riding inside, your bicycle is actually moving forward and covering distance.

I see your point, however I don't understand why going somewhere is actually important unless you're commuting to work, going to the store, competing in a race. I guess my reasoning is that the action is the same, but the environment is different.

If I lived at the South Pole, I'd have no choice but to count my indoor miles, but then there are some hardcore cold-weather-riders out there ;)

Hey, we need a new metric here: calories burned. When I'm doing the right thing: e.g. really improving my conditioning, I burn about 7000 calories/week according to my Polar. I think that's about a 1:1 for kilojoules. So maybe we need to forget the whole mileage thing and measure everything in calories. What's your this year's "calories burned" goal?

OTOH, my "real rides" and events mostly involve a lot of climbing. What really counts on my rides is not so much distance traveled, as elevation gained. So should I not count my flat rides, because I'm not going anywhere, meaning up and down? I mean, what's the difference between a flat ride and a trainer? Heh.

I see your point, however I don't understand why going somewhere is actually important unless you're commuting to work, going to the store, competing in a race. I guess my reasoning is that the action is the same, but the environment is different.

If I lived at the South Pole, I'd have no choice but to count my indoor miles, but then there are some hardcore cold-weather-riders out there ;)

The OP set a goal of 5000 miles. He is keeping track of the actual distance he covers by bicycle. If you're on a trainer, you aren't covering any distance, you're stationary ... your legs are spinning but your bicycle is not moving forward. So therefore I'm saying he can't legitimately count trainer time in his 5000 miles.

He can, however, count trainer time in "calories burned" calculations, or in a list of exercise he did that day, or record it in some other way because it is a valuable activity for keeping in shape, losing weight, etc.

Given that this is the "Long Distance" forum, I'd say no, stationary miles don't count.

But if you asked the same question in the "Indoor Training" forum then I'd say hell yes.

The OP set a goal of 5000 miles. He is keeping track of the actual distance he covers by bicycle. If you're on a trainer, you aren't covering any distance, you're stationary ... your legs are spinning but your bicycle is not moving forward. So therefore I'm saying he can't legitimately count trainer time in his 5000 miles.


What if he puts the trainer in the RV and has his wife drive him around while he spins?

IOW, I nominate this thread for "silliest of the week". :)

but if on rollers your still not going forward but your bike is still moving about and your still balancing and peddeling like a mad man interupted with moments terror now and then

What if he puts the trainer in the RV and has his wife drive him around while he spins?

IOW, I nominate this thread for "silliest of the week". :)

Yeah but if he is pointing backwards you need to subtract the trainer miles from the RV miles.

If the RV gets stuck in traffic and he ends up doing more trainer miles than the RV covers, well thats negative miles, tough day. :)

lol some of these responses are making me roll on the floor lmol ,I dont count my miles but heh if someone wants to count there miles * why not * I think the most imp part is too keep the pedals turing all yr long ,but 4 hrs on a trainer can be :eek:...

Steven

People say this to make themselves feel better about a task that is more difficult mentally, but not physically. Riding outside is more difficult because you've got weather, terrain, road conditions and all sorts of things to deal with.

If you compare the 24-hour road records with the 24-hour roller records, you'll see that indoor cycling smokes outdoor cycling. Why? Because it's easier.

http://www.ultracycling.com/records/timedrecords.html

If anything 1.5 hours on the trainer is equivalent to 1 hour on the road.

So it would seem that UMCA thinks you can cover miles on rollers since they have "24 hour roller record".

As for the easier or harder, my rollers are easier than my trainer kind of like a flat ride or maybe a tailwind but everyone still counts those miles the same if your outside. My trainer on the other hand can be set way harder than any road ride I can use for training near my house. I have access to plenty of hills but none that will last an entire ride while not allowing any break in pedaling.

I came across this statement on a different forum concerning the equivalent times.

Here's an interesting fact, I was a member of the Carmichael Training System for about a year. At CTS you don't ride miles, you ride time. All the workouts are "ride for an hour, ride for 2 hours," never "ride 30 miles." Interesting enough, when you had to do a trainer ride, the coaches said to cut the training time by 15%. This leans toward the theory that trainer miles can be harder. This advice comes from the guy that coached a certain someone to 7 TDF wins. Maybe they know something we don't? http://www.bikejournal.com/thread.asp?ThreadID={1E8A9678-CCF8-4325-A5A9-C79984567D4A**&numPost=11

In the end it really doesn't matter what counts or doesn't. I ride for fun and the challenge of doing rides that most normal people would not consider possible or sane. I will still be logging my indoor riding in miles knowing that I put in the same effort if not more than I would if I was outside.

Ok, from another standpoint. Since this is the LD forum, it equates that you would have to physically go somewhere. I think instead of being a function of the rider, the mileage is a function of the vehicle. I'm just thinking from the former point of view.

Living in Florida I don't have to ask this question.:D