Touring - 1" threaded vs. 1 1/8" threadless

A friend of mine who wants to get into touring is considering a dedicated road touring bike and likes his STI, so that rules out the stock LHT and 520. I was showing him a Fuji touring and a Jamis Aurora bike. Very similar bikes with similar prices but the biggest difference is the steel fork. The Fuji has a 1" threaded fork and the Jamis has a 1 1/8" threadless fork. Do you see any subtle advantages of one over the other in respect to touring, assuming both can be made to fit correctly? or is it a no brainer and he should pick green vs copper. BTW, Niles is this a debate or discourse? :D

Us old school guys like threaded forks because we can easily adjust the stem up and down. New school likes the lighter weight (not lighter if you have 3" of steerer and shims sticking out of the headset) and looks I suppose. From a strength standpoint the difference is meaningless for touring purposes. If the bike fits, choose a color and forget about it

Us old school guys like threaded forks because we can easily adjust the stem up and down. New school likes the lighter weight (not lighter if you have 3" of steerer and shims sticking out of the headset) and looks I suppose. From a strength standpoint the difference is meaningless for touring purposes. If the bike fits, choose a color and forget about it

Lighter weight is only one advantage. Even with 3" of steerer and shims, a threadless will be lighter than a corresponding threaded headset. You are missing two nuts, a long length of stem, a long bolt and a wedge nut using threadless.

The other advantage is that you are missing all of that stuff which makes adjustment and installation much easier. In the shop, adjusting an threadless headset is a less than 30 second job. It takes the same amount of time and the same tools on the road if your headset loosens up...which seldom happens with the threadless in my experience. Adjusting a threaded headset is tedious at best in the shop and often very frustrating. Adjusting one on the road is next to impossible unless you carry two rather large wrenches. And I found them to need nearly constant attention even with the most careful adjustment.

Since the stem on a threadless clamps around a 1 1/8" thin-walled pipe and the stem is usually rather large in diameter itself, the handlebars are less prone to twisting when you stand up to climb. But that's just gravy compared to the adjustability factor.

Lighter weight is only one advantage. Even with 3" of steerer and shims, a threadless will be lighter than a corresponding threaded headset. You are missing two nuts, a long length of stem, a long bolt and a wedge nut using threadless.

The other advantage is that you are missing all of that stuff which makes adjustment and installation much easier. In the shop, adjusting an threadless headset is a less than 30 second job. It takes the same amount of time and the same tools on the road if your headset loosens up...which seldom happens with the threadless in my experience. Adjusting a threaded headset is tedious at best in the shop and often very frustrating. Adjusting one on the road is next to impossible unless you carry two rather large wrenches. And I found them to need nearly constant attention even with the most careful adjustment.

Since the stem on a threadless clamps around a 1 1/8" thin-walled pipe and the stem is usually rather large in diameter itself, the handlebars are less prone to twisting when you stand up to climb. But that's just gravy compared to the adjustability factor.

On second thought I think you are right about the weight. Especially with an iron wedge on a long stem there is probably a few ounces difference.

I'll also agree that adjusting a threadless headset is a no brainer that is why they orginally put them on MTB's :)

Adjusting a threaded headset with two wrenches? yeah you can do it that way, but nearly all of the threaded forks and headsets I have encountered (except for BMX) are keyed with a key washer. With one wrench; Snug down the upper bearing cup until the bearings slightly bind, then snug the top nut down , next back off the upper bearing cup against the top nut until the bearings are free. alternate if necessary. Takes me two minutes.

The threadless stems do clamp very well to the steerer. but If someone is twisting the handlebars while climbing on a threaded headset his mechanic must be a Gurly-man, 25 ftlbs is all it should take to hold a wedge stem in place for any gorilla.

On second thought I think you are right about the weight. Especially with an iron wedge on a long stem there is probably a few ounces difference.

I'll also agree that adjusting a threadless headset is a no brainer that is why they orginally put them on MTB's :)

Adjusting a threaded headset with two wrenches? yeah you can do it that way, but nearly all of the threaded forks and headsets I have encountered (except for BMX) are keyed with a key washer. With one wrench; Snug down the upper bearing cup until the bearings slightly bind, then snug the top nut down , next back off the upper bearing cup against the top nut until the bearings are free. alternate if necessary. Takes me two minutes.

The threadless stems do clamp very well to the steerer. but If someone is twisting the handlebars while climbing on a threaded headset his mechanic must be a Gurly-man, 25 ftlbs is all it should take to hold a wedge stem in place for any gorilla.

Even with a keyed washer, I've always used two wrenches. One to hold the top nut in place and another to back the bearing race against it. I've had too many of the keyed washers sneak into the threads to trust them. They're a bugger to get out:mad:

I wasn't talking about vertical twisting of the bars but horizontal twisting. The old cheap SR goose necks felt about as strong as a twist tie;) Even with very long mountain bike bars, it's hard to twist a threadless stem horizontally.

next to impossible unless you carry two rather large wrenches

+1

I'm never without 4 and 5 mm hex wrenches. I also have the tools for cutting a threadless steerer and setting the star nut. Those two issues made the decision pretty clear for me. The Fuji would've been a better fit by a few millimeters and has a geometry a little better suited to carrying really heavy loads but I bought an Aurora which still fit pretty well and is plenty capable of carrying everything I've ever needed.

One very important factor I haven't seen mentioned yet. The number of stems at the right length and rise is far easier to find in 1 1/8 then 1". I could not find the right 1" stem so I found a 1" > 1 1/8" adapter. Happy now.

Vince

I would prefer threadless, but don't mind threaded that much. If I am flying I need a pedal wrench anyway, so carrying a short combination pedal/headset wrench isn't a big deal. The Park HCW-6 fits the bill nicely.
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=50&item=HCW-6#

As others have mentioned, threadless is just easier to work with -- less fiddling needed to get it adjusted. Also, easier to find replacements parts in threadless now, at least in the USA.

Also, easier to find replacements parts in threadless now, at least in the USA.
I am not sure that is always true. It depends on where you are.

In areas with real bike shops threadless parts are more available, but in places where you have to find a part at Wallmart or in a little hardware store I think the opposite may be true. I bet that 90% of the time on the transamerica we could have more easily found parts for threaded. The point is probably moot though since neither is likely to fail.

If you decide you want a higher/lower/longer/shorter stem along the way this might be an issue, but in that case you can hold out for a day or two.

I am not sure that is always true. It depends on where you are.

In areas with real bike shops threadless parts are more available, but in places where you have to find a part at Wallmart or in a little hardware store I think the opposite may be true. I bet that 90% of the time on the transamerica we could have more easily found parts for threaded. The point is probably moot though since neither is likely to fail.

If you decide you want a higher/lower/longer/shorter stem along the way this might be an issue, but in that case you can hold out for a day or two.

Cheap department store bikes dumped on the roadside or in just about anyone's backyard, or in the middle of India (?), will yield a pair of FORKS, and that is the critical replacement issue for touring. Like I said on another thread, there are likely millions more threaded FORKS out there compared with threadless. The forks are most prone to being run over, crashed into the back of a vehicle, or other unintended disasters.

I would suggest that a properly built threaded headset is unlikely to present any significant problems. Almost all my bikes have had threaded headsets and they have put on many tens of thousands of kilometres of riding. I agree about the difficulties of getting the bearing preload right, but once it's set, it's set until the next maintenance stripdown, and the stem can removed ad-infinitum without affecting that preload.

Put the assembly of a threadless headset in the hands of an inexperienced "mechanic" at an airport, however, and there are likely to be problems ranging from indexed steering through too much preload on the headset bearings to popping the bolt through the cap (don't worry, I have seen both).

The weight factor is a red-herring when it comes to deciding on a touring set-up.

The forks are most prone to being run over, crashed into the back of a vehicle, or other unintended disasters.
Of course you are absolutely correct here, so my comment about the headset itself not being an issue is kind of moot. I also think you are right on regarding availability issues.

It really depends on the quality of the headset....

When the treadless headsets came out, most of them were pretty good. It's still possible to get a very nice treadless headset, but many stock threadless headsets are junk. Intigrated or zero stack units are often trash because the bearings are too small. For the money, stick to FSA or Ritchey high end units

On the treadless side, Campy, Shimano and FSA make very good headsets that last a long, long time and are simple to adjust.

My advice would be to buy the Fuji and upgrade the headset (the FSA sealed bearing unit) at the shop and have them show the owner how to service it.

Funny, but I also dissed the 520 and LHT due to the lack of STI. Aurora!

If you decide on the Fuji touring you might as well just get the Windsor version, it's the same bike for a couple hundred less...

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/tourist.htm

One very important factor I haven't seen mentioned yet. The number of stems at the right length and rise is far easier to find in 1 1/8 then 1". I could not find the right 1" stem so I found a 1" > 1 1/8" adapter. Happy now.

Vince

This provides the best of both worlds because the bearings can remain untouched, but the stem can be removed at will. Plus, there is a bit of extra height that might be available compared with a normal quill stem. I've just gone this route with the Fuji Touring after pirating its stem for my Shogun. The adapter cost me all up $15 off eBay, and the stem cost me, along with four others, about $10, also from eBay.

As to finding enough height out of a quill stem, try the Nitto Technomic option. Sheldon Brown/Harris Cyclery has details on them. The height can be as much as you like up to dork level ;)

Incidentally, just take note that stem height is important. It was only while browsing for options through the Sheldon Brown site that I picked up that steerer tubes are butted (or thicker) at the bottom end (obviously to take the stresses both physical and metallurgical from having two tubes brazed or welded to it). This butting can cause you some problems if your quill stem is too long and you try to shove it down a few millimetres further than it's meant to go. I checked the steerer tubes on the forks I am playing with at present and yep, they are butted.

I can't imagine anyone making a decision to go with an inferior-fitting bike just based on the stem arrangements, though. To me, it would be an odd priority.

I would suggest that a properly built threaded headset is unlikely to present any significant problems. Almost all my bikes have had threaded headsets and they have put on many tens of thousands of kilometres of riding. I agree about the difficulties of getting the bearing preload right, but once it's set, it's set until the next maintenance stripdown, and the stem can removed ad-infinitum without affecting that preload.

Put the assembly of a threadless headset in the hands of an inexperienced "mechanic" at an airport, however, and there are likely to be problems ranging from indexed steering through too much preload on the headset bearings to popping the bolt through the cap (don't worry, I have seen both).

The weight factor is a red-herring when it comes to deciding on a touring set-up.

I don't know that I'd agree that a threaded headset is unlikely to present any problems. There used to be a pretty good cottage industry for locking the top nut of a threaded headset in place back when they were the only game in town for mountain biking. Even properly adjusted, they would work loose. That's extreme compared to road riding but touring bikes see more abuse than regular road bikes. The other issue is dealing with one that hasn't been properly assembled and adjusted. Fixing one on the road just isn't as easy as threadless. Given the choice, I'd take threadless over threaded any day.

Why would anyone be assembling a threadless headset at an airport? You don't take the fork off of a threaded headset bike, why would you take apart a threadless. However, the ease of assembly of a threadless would make for a smaller box when shipping the bike. It's one way of getting below the size limits with UPS or FedEx.

Why would anyone be assembling a threadless headset at an airport? You don't take the fork off of a threaded headset bike, why would you take apart a threadless. However, the ease of assembly of a threadless would make for a smaller box when shipping the bike. It's one way of getting below the size limits with UPS or FedEx.
I suppose if you haven't got a handlebar bag mount on the bars so you can easily get to the bolts on the faceplate...

I suppose if you haven't got a handlebar bag mount on the bars so you can easily get to the bolts on the faceplate...

Oh. I see where you were going. However, my handlebar bag mount (Ortlieb) never interfered with getting to at least one of the faceplate bolts. That's all you need because you can rotate the bars down to get to the other one. Additionally, cantilever equipped threadless headset bikes need a pinch bolt cable hanger since they aren't keyed. That hanger acts as a second 'stem' and holds the preload on the fork. I can easily remove the stem on my bikes without having to touch the bearing adjustment. Sometimes I wish my mountain bike had the same thing;)

The only other thing perhaps is that we spend a lot of time getting our bikes to a comfort level that relies on almost millimetric adjustment of seat post, stem length and handlebar angle. Even stem height is important. I've not been in the position of having to tour with a threadless set, but I think I would rather fiddle momentarily with headset preload at the airport than fiddle on and off the bike getting the handlebar tilt back to being just right (this is assuming drop bars, but I also can apply it to bullhorn bars and some types of hybrid/MTB bars).

And yes! We should mark the position of things before we dismantle for travel... but how often do we do that, and with what? Black anodised alloy doesn't show up black Texta well... and marking with a sharp point isn't really advisable... marking with whiteout seems to be an option if it doesn't flake off.

Hmmm.... overthinking here.

I'm pretty happy with threadless, it seems like an actual improvement, though the retro grouch contingent has been hard to convince. It's certainly cheaper for me not to own the die required to thread my forks when in making mode.

While everything said about loose headsets on threaded is probably true. A loose headset on a threaded isn't a big problem, your bars aren't going to spin off at the same time. If the HS seems loose on a threaded I just apply the front brake to bring the assembly in column, and hand tighten. I was always told they shouldn't be a lot tighter than hand tight, but whatever the truth, hand tight was real easy to achieve.