"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Getting better at pack riding

In another thread, Duke of Kent wrote:

I have a problem holding a wheel. Well, specifically, holding a wheel in the last 3 laps or so leading up to the finish of a crit. I can roll through two-wide in a crit for two hours, string it out in a chase and do all of that, but unless I pop out on the outside, and can surf someone up to the front, I'm useless at the end of a race. I'm hoping that the guidance I recieve from teammates and guys on the rides will help me use my strengths to the best of my abilities. And that I can repay them when the road goes up.


I have the same problem. I'm curious what in particular you're going to work on to improve your pack riding and what you can do in races to help teamates on climbs.

Background, skip if you want: I raced as a 4 in the mid 80s and early 90s, then quit riding. I didn't learn much about racing then, I was mere pack fodder. I got back into riding when I hit my 40s, and slowly built up my riding. I'm now psyched to go back to racing and maybe be a little smarter. I've hooked up with a club that's big on teamwork and I'd like to be able to use what talents I have to help the team.

Since my race records are all old and I'm rusty anyhow, I'm going to do the local earlybird training race series to brush up on my pack skills and get the rest of the points to upgrade from 5 to 4. I've been riding the larger group rides to get used to pack riding again. Actually all this was my plan for last year but I crashed hard in one of those group rides (someone at the front put on the brakes right as I was looking off to the side) and being off the bike for a month and extra nervous about crashes discouraged me from doing anything but hillclimb races (which are what I really like anyhow).

What sort of mental or physical exercises can one do to help pack riding? I used to do the weekly twilight crit series even though I hated it, just to work on my pack skills. But they don't have it anymore.

What can a climber do to help his teamates in a road race? I've tried pacing a teamate up to a group when the race is splintering on a climb but even going as smoothly as possible it doesn't seem like much help.

Eric,

The Early Birds crits should be useful. I'll be at a few of them myself for the same reason (not so much to win, but to get my "racing head"). If you really want to pack in (ha ha) some practice, you could do the 8:30 (4/5), the mentoring session, and the 35+ races all in the same day. 5 weeks of that ought to improve your pack skills considerably.

Also: SJBC does still do the Twilights (http://teamsanjose.org/twilights/) on Tuesday nights in the summertime, not exactly sure when they start but word usually does go out to various clubs. They also have practice RRs throughout the year which may or may not be as effective as crits, but certainly won't hurt. You have to "join" SJBC ($40) and it's $5/race.

Check your private messages for more info (AV-related).

Oh, re: helping teammates on climbs; if you are a good climber, I'd consider the problem from the opposite angle: how can your teammates help you, i.e. form a break, deliver you to the bottom of a big climb, or help you maintain position after a climb.

My observation is that strong "flat" riders can help climbers on the flats, but the reverse is never true—you are never going to "pull" someone up a climb (beyond simple motivational talk; and if you're in the heat of it you probably aren't going to have the breath for that).

I have no idea what you can do mentally to prepare for racing in tight quarters. A bad case of "Crash-phobia" is hard to get out from between your ears. Although it's easy to say, "Be aggressive, not tentative.", in some cases that is much easier said than done.

OTOH, physically you need to practice, practice, practice as has been pointed out by others. In addition, if you tend to fade at the end of a race you may need to work on your stamina. LSD rides, building a strong base, hill repeats, intervals, fast and long group rides, and lotsa saddle time will help with that.

Bob

but the reverse is never true—you are never going to "pull" someone up a climb

Don't tell any domestiques ;)

http://www.vivatravels.com/images/Copy%20of%20Lance%20and%20Jan%20on%20the%20Col%20de%20Croix%20Fry%202004.jpg

^^ 2 strong climbers. I'm talking about a strong climber trying to "pull" a non-climber. It ain't gonna happen.

Yeah, that's true, but with two strong climbers, you can pwn the field on a climb.

Yeah, that's true, but with two strong climbers, you can pwn the field on a climb.

Of course. I guess I was kind of assuming he was talking about helping weak climbers.

Well, I should have prefaced my point with a bit of background. I'm 5'7", will be around 138lbs this season, racing P/1/2. I consider myself very adept at crit racing in that I can do large amounts of work at race speed for a teammate or in a break, and I have sufficient technical skills. My main problem is that I simply get shouldered out of the way by bigger riders who want my position late in races. And, as much as I'd like to think that I can fight back, that's more than likely going to result in myself and others touching the tarmac. I can handle someone leaning on my through a corner, and do the same to others just fine, but when someone is literally a foot above me and throws a hip/elbow/shoulder, I need to move.

strangely, I enter every race (most especially crits) with the understanding that I may crash, no matter what I do. I can not control all variables and scenarios.


With this idea/mantra in mind I try and put myself in smart places in the pack.

i.e:

riding in the front third of the peloton is way safer, so I work hard to be in this position. Additionally, any perception of hard work to get in the front third usually pays divedends with less work in the long run. Less accordion effect, less panic in the last few laps trying to get into position to contest a sprint and less fear of a crash.

I like to be on the outside of the peloton for sprints... it gives me confidence that I can sprint safely and gives me a decent view of whos wheel to grab.

If you are in a tight and nervous pack, being nervous yourself wil translate to the rest of the pack. If I see one guy who keeps swerving through corners, it freaks me out. Dont be that guy freaking everyone else out and it weill likely lead to a calmer group of guys around you... and less "hold your line!!" being shouted at you.

I'm a fred, so I tend to announce my lines around tight corners... particularly if its a risky move to the inside... claiming the "inside!" as mine gives me a sense of confidence, too. (this may be an old habit from my glorious days on the basketball courts).



You may consider some "bumping" drills with friends where you practice rubbing shoulders and tapping handlebars or hands. When you are confident that you can be bumped and not freak out you not only increace confidence but also make a safer pack for everyone else.
Oh, if some one drifts towards you in a fast peloton, resist the urge to swerve quickly away from this impending danger and into the rest of the pack. thanks!

Yea, I know I can't drag a non-climber up a hill. I was thinking more what I can do for a teamate who can climb but can also sprint or TT better than me (not hard to do).

From what I remember, the guys yelling "hold your line" are some of the ones to watch out for.

Everyone says to be in the first 1/3 of the pack. But by definition only a third of the riders can do that.

Yea, I know I can't drag a non-climber up a hill. I was thinking more what I can do for a teamate who can climb but can also sprint or TT better than me (not hard to do).

From what I remember, the guys yelling "hold your line" are some of the ones to watch out for.

agreed.


Everyone says to be in the first 1/3 of the pack. But by definition only a third of the riders can do that.

No, only people who are interested in giving themselves the safest path to possible wins say that... and I'm guessing that most of us dont always find ourselves into that first third of the pack.
If i come into the last lap in the back half of the pack, even a Boonenesque sprint will be futile.

was there a question here?

When I raced 1/2/pro, I weighed 150-160lbs at 5-8% body-fat and was pretty average. Other teams always seems to have football linebackers that would try to sweep me off their teammate's wheels at the end of a race. Some of them have actually backed off to the opposite kerb and come flying back to body-slam me off the wheel. What I've found to work well in many of these cases is to move up slightly and place their designated teammate between me and the sweeper. So coming around the last couple corners, I'd half-wheel their teammate on the inside so that no one could get to me.

Another tactic that worked well is to have your own linebacker around to protect you from the other big guys. Two on each side works great while you're sitting on their sprinter's wheel. Then these guys can just not sprint coming out of the corners to hold off the pack.

Another strategy that works well is to not be on their designated sprinter's wheel. But rather keep your eye on him from off to the side even with him. Or be two spots back.

In all these cases, it's of utmost importance to really pay attention and have lightening-fast reflexes. Count the gears that their sprinter is using. Get ready to sprint the second he starts to go and get on his wheel. Or even stay next to him in open air to keep the sweepers on his other side.

I personally had a really strong sprint but wouldn't waste myself. I'd always break up a sprint into three sections of 100%-95%-100% effort. The 1st stage was to get into position and if I was two positions back from their sprinter, I'd have to go all out to get on his wheel. Or sit near the end of the lead-out train to not draw too much attention from their swepers. Then sit for a while and then go all-out to come around at the end. If I didn't have that 95% effort in the middle to recover, there's no way I could do two double-length efforts at 100%.

When I raced 1/2/pro, I weighed 150-160lbs at 5-8% body-fat and was pretty average. Other teams always seems to have football linebackers that would try to sweep me off their teammate's wheels at the end of a race. Some of them have actually backed off to the opposite kerb and come flying back to body-slam me off the wheel.

Apparently racing in MI is a veritable group-hug compared to SoCal.

Yeah, that's true, but with two strong climbers, you can pwn the field on a climb.


I often wonder how much of this is:

1. drafting... which calculations show should be only a slight advantage,
2. psychological... not having to set your own pace, placebo, etc...
3. physiological... stealing someone else's water, etc...

Apparently racing in MI is a veritable group-hug compared to SoCal.

Yeah, I saw that crap in Colorado too. One of my Cat 2 friends got bumped off a wheel, sprinted pretty much straight through the bumper to get around him, then the bumper punched him in the quads. So... he jumped off his bike at 28 mph to tackle him. He got 2 punches in before they slid to a stop, picked up his bike and chased back on. Everyone on the side of the road was completely dazed.

I don't see any of this in TX (yet), but we've only recently aligned our categories somewhat even with the "fast" markets. 10 years ago, a Colorado Cat 3 could rip a TX Cat 2 to shreds.

....not that the thought of me entering any races is keeping anyone up at night but....:rolleyes:

You can call me wussy or whatever but stuff like that is what keeps me from sticking my toe in the racing waters...I like my collarbones & bike just the way they are...in one piece. ;)


Yeah, I saw that crap in Colorado too. One of my Cat 2 friends got bumped off a wheel, sprinted pretty much straight through the bumper to get around him, then the bumper punched him in the quads. So... he jumped off his bike at 28 mph to tackle him. He got 2 punches in before they slid to a stop, picked up his bike and chased back on. Everyone on the side of the road was completely dazed.

I don't see any of this in TX (yet), but we've only recently aligned our categories somewhat even with the "fast" markets. 10 years ago, a Colorado Cat 3 could rip a TX Cat 2 to shreds.

Well, I should have prefaced my point with a bit of background. I'm 5'7", will be around 138lbs this season, racing P/1/2. I consider myself very adept at crit racing in that I can do large amounts of work at race speed for a teammate or in a break, and I have sufficient technical skills. My main problem is that I simply get shouldered out of the way by bigger riders who want my position late in races. And, as much as I'd like to think that I can fight back, that's more than likely going to result in myself and others touching the tarmac. I can handle someone leaning on my through a corner, and do the same to others just fine, but when someone is literally a foot above me and throws a hip/elbow/shoulder, I need to move.

Its in your head. Size doesn't matter. You either have the cojones or confidence to mix it or you don't.

Robbie McEwen is only 5'7" and nobody moves him. Stephen Pate is of similar size and was racing 6'5" steriod monsters on the track and never got shifted. FWIW a lot of big guys don't like pushing shorter riders because they get underneath their elbows and handlebars.

Go and find a big arse mate and practice bumping with him out training to get the confidence to mix it in races.

As for big dudes waving elbows, just ride into their elbow. Big blokes make more noise when they hit the deck. :p

^^ 2 strong climbers. I'm talking about a strong climber trying to "pull" a non-climber. It ain't gonna happen.

Get behind the weaker climber and push...

The most tired I had been from a 100 mile ride is when one of my teammates bonked with about 20 miles to go and I with 2 other teammates pushed him for 20 miles.. We took turns pushing.. It was harder than interval training..

Couple things:

1. MI was, in the early 90s, a definite group hug compared to CT/NY/NJ/MA/RI. In MI I'd yell "on your right" and people would move left! I used to yell that in NY to get guys to go right (i.e. I yell "on your right" and they move right to block me). Then I'd go left, which is where I wanted to go anyway. I don't have to yell anymore. In some races I'd yell something and someone would say "don't go, it's just him". lol. So my tactics had to evolve :)

2. In a crit in CT, one guy had his foot out and was kicking another guy with 1/2 lap to go. I don't remember what happened other than neither of them placed. THis was a P/1/2/3 race. This was maybe 4 or 5 years ago I think. usually things aren't like that.

Tactically speaking there are only two skills a racer needs. One is staying on a wheel. The other is taking a wheel. I think that everything else is related to those two things. But if anyone disagrees I'm all ears.

The rest of it is more how to draft, how to ride in a field, etc. But without being able to stay on or to take wheels, you're not going to be able to use your other skills.

cdr

OK. I'm a bad man. I admit it. I was one of those guys who took the wheel I wanted. If some fool would let me take it, I would. Having your bars a smidge in front of the other guys gives you a lot of clout.

If someone tried to push me off a wheel I would put my hand on their hip and put them where I wanted them. It is pretty safe as they will still be stable and it won't cause them any difficulty. I don't know how many times I was boxed in so I just pushed my way out. Especially if it was a race that had some less experienced or lower category riders in it. In my mind, they haven't earned the right to be on that wheel so I am only taking what is mine (this is a racing mindset. strange stuff. I'm not like that, at all, off the bike) That's racing.

I think a lot of it has to do with confidence. If you roll up beside someone and just move onto the wheel with confidence usually they other rider will give it to you. If they don't you may have to fight for it or move up one rider and pick on someone else.

carpediemracing, an insightful post. thanks.

-bullseye

I'd always break up a sprint into three sections of 100%-95%-100% effort. The 1st stage was to get into position and if I was two positions back from their sprinter, I'd have to go all out to get on his wheel. Or sit near the end of the lead-out train to not draw too much attention from their swepers. Then sit for a while and then go all-out to come around at the end. If I didn't have that 95% effort in the middle to recover, there's no way I could do two double-length efforts at 100%.

+1 that's how mine tend to work out

I am so glad I am too wussy for all of these "Pack" shenanigans.

To the guy who is afraid to race because of this post, we are speaking of higher cats and unusual circumstances. Go out and race. It's fun.

I often wonder how much of this is:

1. drafting... which calculations show should be only a slight advantage,
2. psychological... not having to set your own pace, placebo, etc...
3. physiological... stealing someone else's water, etc...


Well, there is the one-two punch approach with alternate attacks. I attack while you wait on a wheel. Someone has to respond, and it's not you. As soon as they catch me, you go off the front hard. Someone has to respond... repeat until one of us stays off the front.

The draft is slight, but if everyone is the same strength, then it will be the determining factor. On a 4% grade, at 10-15mph, the draft will add up.

The psychological component is significant as well. The wheel in front of you feels a little like a rubber band pulling you along. If that rubber band breaks, all is lost.

I should point out that the two skills (keeping a wheel or taking a wheel) don't involve any contact with another rider (at least instigated by the one using the skill) nor does it involve any "iffy" riding (again, based on the perspective of the one using the skill). This means never taking a hand off the bars, not even having to bump someone with an elbow, shoulder, or hip.

I was in my own race series, in the P/1/2/3 race, helping a lone Pro who happened to be a friend of mine. He couldn't beat his main rival (a Cat 2) in a sprint so had to get away from him. Of course the rival knew this and stayed glued to his wheel. The rival also had about 6 strong teammates willing to kill themselves in order to get their designated leader a win.

The Pro asked another guy to sweep his wheel, i.e. get rid of the Cat 2 rival sitting on the Pro. The sweeper tried for a couple laps (i.e. 4 minutes or so) with no success. I think I was at the back groveling or something but I came up to the pro at about this time and asked if he needed me to do anything. He told me, in no uncertain terms, "Get this guy off my wheel".

It took me about 7 seconds to clear the Pro's wheel, perhaps 50 meters of riding. I did nothing unusual, no pushing, no shoving, no elbows, nothing but some standard "Use the opponent's force against him" type stuff.

Well the guy really wanted the wheel back and started doing some less than clean riding things. It took him about 300 meters of extremely aggressive riding to get back around me. He finally sprinted into a driveway (i.e. perhaps 20 feet wide) and almost did an endo on the curb lining it. I let him in because I didn't feel like having him endo. And I used up what legs I had left so couldn't repeat my move right away (the Pro took off, Cat 2 in tow shortly after, and I went back to hiding in the field).

Then, after they all came back, I did the same thing again, this time with less than half a lap left in the race. This time the Cat 2 almost took himself and about 4 guys out to get back up to the Pro (who was leading out a very long sprint, perhaps 400-500 meters out, ending on a 150 meter hill). The guys he slammed actually stopped sprinting because he hit them so hard, but he made his point. He got up to the Pro, sat on his wheel, came around him, and won. However, only one guy initiated contact with other guys - the Cat 2. At the time he was relatively inexperienced but he's stronger, smoother, and isn't as desperate. And I'm pretty sure he's a pro now.

cdr

^^ 2 strong climbers. I'm talking about a strong climber trying to "pull" a non-climber. It ain't gonna happen.

Acually you pace your teammate up the hill so in a sense you are "pulling"

Yeah, I saw that crap in Colorado too. One of my Cat 2 friends got bumped off a wheel, sprinted pretty much straight through the bumper to get around him, then the bumper punched him in the quads. So... he jumped off his bike at 28 mph to tackle him. He got 2 punches in before they slid to a stop, picked up his bike and chased back on. Everyone on the side of the road was completely dazed.

I don't see any of this in TX (yet), but we've only recently aligned our categories somewhat even with the "fast" markets. 10 years ago, a Colorado Cat 3 could rip a TX Cat 2 to shreds.

Damn thats hardcore.... and I like it :D

cdr - would you further explain what it was you did to clear the pro's wheel?

good thread, interesting reading about things that can actually help someone get race results:)


I should point out that the two skills (keeping a wheel or taking a wheel) don't involve any contact with another rider (at least instigated by the one using the skill) nor does it involve any "iffy" riding (again, based on the perspective of the one using the skill). This means never taking a hand off the bars, not even having to bump someone with an elbow, shoulder, or hip.

I was in my own race series, in the P/1/2/3 race, helping a lone Pro who happened to be a friend of mine. He couldn't beat his main rival (a Cat 2) in a sprint so had to get away from him. Of course the rival knew this and stayed glued to his wheel. The rival also had about 6 strong teammates willing to kill themselves in order to get their designated leader a win.

The Pro asked another guy to sweep his wheel, i.e. get rid of the Cat 2 rival sitting on the Pro. The sweeper tried for a couple laps (i.e. 4 minutes or so) with no success. I think I was at the back groveling or something but I came up to the pro at about this time and asked if he needed me to do anything. He told me, in no uncertain terms, "Get this guy off my wheel".

It took me about 7 seconds to clear the Pro's wheel, perhaps 50 meters of riding. I did nothing unusual, no pushing, no shoving, no elbows, nothing but some standard "Use the opponent's force against him" type stuff.

Well the guy really wanted the wheel back and started doing some less than clean riding things. It took him about 300 meters of extremely aggressive riding to get back around me. He finally sprinted into a driveway (i.e. perhaps 20 feet wide) and almost did an endo on the curb lining it. I let him in because I didn't feel like having him endo. And I used up what legs I had left so couldn't repeat my move right away (the Pro took off, Cat 2 in tow shortly after, and I went back to hiding in the field).

Then, after they all came back, I did the same thing again, this time with less than half a lap left in the race. This time the Cat 2 almost took himself and about 4 guys out to get back up to the Pro (who was leading out a very long sprint, perhaps 400-500 meters out, ending on a 150 meter hill). The guys he slammed actually stopped sprinting because he hit them so hard, but he made his point. He got up to the Pro, sat on his wheel, came around him, and won. However, only one guy initiated contact with other guys - the Cat 2. At the time he was relatively inexperienced but he's stronger, smoother, and isn't as desperate. And I'm pretty sure he's a pro now.

cdr

great stories, keep em coming!

cdr - would you further explain what it was you did to clear the pro's wheel?

good thread, interesting reading about things that can actually help someone get race results:)

heh I'm sort of hiding it for now. Racers who are not experienced are totally bewildered when they lose the wheel they're on, and in this case, the Cat 2 was a strong but relatively inexperienced (imo) racer. If I had better fitness it could have gotten pretty hectic but I didn't want the race series to get a bad name (I promoted the race so I didn't want to cause any fireworks) so I let him in. On that last lap I thought I'd done enough but he basically pulled a desperate move and made it work. Since I've gotten the red mist and pulled similar moves (not quite so desperate though), I empathized and let it go. The other guys were ultimately okay with it too, they were actually leading out and had essentially no chance of placing.

I should also add the following:
1. After the race series (that was the last day I think), I went up to the Cat 2, shook his hand, and said that he rode a really strong race, that he obviously wanted the win, and he deserved the win. There's no questioning that he wanted the race more than anyone out there, including the pro (who remember is a friend of mine).
2. He's learned a lot since those hectic days and he regularly infiltrates breaks in the toughest races out there. I have nothing but respect for his talent, racing ability, and his separation of life and bike racing. The last bit is critical to me - if he was all pissed after the race, I'd have a much lower opinion of him.
3. He also has no idea I'm writing any of this about him, but I'm sure he remembers using the driveway to get around me!

cdr

*edit* I realized it's not a big deal. So this is what I did:
When you're in a pack, you have to protect your front wheel. I call it the "sphere of safety", an area that encompasses your front wheel and bars:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/08/tactics-sphere-and-three-scenarios.html

Essentially, to take the wheel, I moved to a spot halfway between the Pro and the Cat 2, waited for the Pro to move over a bit toward me (I figured he'd move based on the course, other racers, etc). The Cat 2 was surprised to find me there, couldn't move over because I was in his sphere of safety, and suddenly I was on the Pro's wheel. The Cat 2's first error was he was not trying to "keep" the Pro's wheel, he was simply following it.

Then it got a bit hectic, because taking a wheel is much, much easier than keeping one (I watched the lead up to a sprint in the 07 Giro, the top guys were taking and losing wheels in less than a pedal stroke). It becomes very, very defensive, essentially putting myself between the Cat 2 and the Pro's wheel. After a corner I was riding to the Pro's 4 o'clock, my bars near his cranks, the Cat 2 to my right. He sprinted into a driveway entrance, came around me, and it was decision time. If I held my speed/course he'd have hit me and slammed into a curb/ice/snow thing about a foot high. I backed off because I didn't want him to crash so I touched my brakes, stood up (moves bike back about a foot), coasted, and it was just enough for him to squeeze between me and the curb.

The second time I was on the Pro's wheel (I tried to time it so I wouldn't be defensive for more than 300-400 meters) was on the last lap. I told the Pro to scoot up the inside (right side) of four or five guys who were about to sweep to the curb for the final right bend. I was to the Pro's left, with the Cat 2 to my left. I figured he'd go to the left and I wanted to make him go as far as possible (around the four or five guys in front). When the Pro went right, it was tight to the others but not too bad - the four or five guys were sweeping to the curb and he squeaked by as they got to the curb. I moved left, expecting the Cat 2 to go left. I was actually overlapping the wheel in front of me (I was to its left) when suddenly, the Cat 2 went right.

I couldn't believe it and thought for sure there was going to be a big stack up. I was overlapped so couldn't go right to block. The Cat 2 slammed into each of those four or five guys - like sprint BAM sprint BAM sprint BAM sprint BAM. His pedals must have been scraping the curb, there was simply no room to their right. They quickly realized that this race meant a lot more to the Cat 2 than it did to them so they backed off a bit (it's a Spring Training Series). To his credit the Cat 2 then launched a vicious attack, bridged to the Pro, sat for a few pedal strokes, then whomped the pro at the line.

I knew a few of the guys and asked how they felt about the whole thing. They were a bit surprised, a little upset, but they knew the Cat 2 was fighting it out for the overall and that his team had put a ton of pressure on him to win. So they were in a forgiving mood. Plus at least a few of them were 3s, were up there to lead out the sprint, and didn't mind sitting up. So at that point I forgave the Cat 2.

There are a lot of techniques, most clean, some iffy, and some downright dirty for keeping a wheel. In most cases I think it's not proper to use anything but clean tactics, but sometimes, in the heat of the moment, it's hard to remember that. I met one of my now-former teammates when I slammed him in the same bend by accident - we both went for the same gap, me from the left, him from the right. I was extremely desperate and needed that spot. I never saw the other guy and suddenly I was bouncing off of him, slammed into the guy to my left, then things stabilized and I was okay. I took off, forget the place, but it was enough to keep me in the hunt. After the race I went looking for the guy I slammed (he was wearing all black but that's all I saw of him). I apologized, we talked, and he joined the team. lol.

cdr

Since we're discussing tactics, I'm wondering how the tactics I've come to know from other disciplines of racing (ie: BMX, 4X, Track) would apply? I don't spend nearly enough time in the peloton to feel confident offering tactical advice, though. I have used/seen them in situations with mixed results, and I think I know a few of the moves cdr is talking about. I'm sure I don't have the subtlety or finesse that he would have used them with, however.

If you want to take someone off a wheel, or take a wheel here are a few basic things you can do that don't involve contact and are pretty safe.

Assuming the group is strung out you can roll up beside your target, put your hip next to his bar and just slowly drift over. If he moves your job is done. If he punches you in the hip you may need to try something else.

Another thing is you can sit right beside him and yell at the rider in front of him to switch in your direction. In essence the wheel you want moves onto your front wheel. The rider who was on the wheel has to go through you to get the wheel they want. This works really well in tight or twisting roads where the group is strung out. The line that is being set will do the work for you.

Master those and other methods will be shown to you during the race as you become the victim.:p

If you want to take someone off a wheel, or take a wheel here are a few basic things you can do that don't involve contact and are pretty safe.

Assuming the group is strung out you can roll up beside your target, put your hip next to his bar and just slowly drift over. If he moves your job is done. If he punches you in the hip you may need to try something else.



This works best BEFORE going into a turn... If its a right hand turn coming up roll up on the right side of your target, hip next to bar, etc. by this I mean do it BEFORE the turn.... dont charge up at the corner expecting it to turn out ok for you or ther other rider.

Its in your head. Size doesn't matter. You either have the cojones or confidence to mix it or you don't.

Robbie McEwen is only 5'7" and nobody moves him. Stephen Pate is of similar size and was racing 6'5" steriod monsters on the track and never got shifted. FWIW a lot of big guys don't like pushing shorter riders because they get underneath their elbows and handlebars.

Go and find a big arse mate and practice bumping with him out training to get the confidence to mix it in races.

As for big dudes waving elbows, just ride into their elbow. Big blokes make more noise when they hit the deck. :p

I can't believe I didn't think of that before. F*** me and call me sally.

I'll work on bumping a friend of mine when the season starts up and I can ride an MTB on non-frozen grass-soil. Bumping drills on grass now would be as bad as taking a dive on the tarmac.

FWIW, a counter to this hip-to bar treatment is to overlap the guy you're drafting, and get really close to him. I do this on the same side and the opposite side of the guy trying to take the wheel. Don't overlap just a little bit though, at least line up your hubs so you don't get your front wheel swept. If you stay close enough, nobody can take the wheel from behind because your hips are protecting that space.

It does help though that I'm 6'4" an all my bumping parts are at other riders' shoulder height. Good intimidation there. I'm not the heaviest guy in the pack at 178, but it still helps.

Since we're discussing tactics, I'm wondering how the tactics I've come to know from other disciplines of racing (ie: BMX, 4X, Track) would apply?

I don't know other disciplines' tactics. I never did BMX, don't know what 4X is, and only did 5 track races in my life.

However, tactics and tactical techniques in particular (i.e. holding or taking a wheel), when used correctly, are sometimes not even noticed by others. I can't think of a good bike example but I do know of a good car example. There's a technique to slow a car while downshifting without making the engine do that "rev up to catch up to the car's speed" thing. You probably experience this if you ever shift into second approaching the turn, let the clutch out, and feel the car slow due to the engine increasing revs to match the clutch.

At the limit (say in a car race), letting the engine increase revs simply by dumping the clutch will cause the drive wheels to lose traction. So you have to rev the engine ("rev-match") so when you let the clutch pedal back out, the engine doesn't change rpms.

So you have to:
1. push brake pedal (you're slowing for a turn)
2. push in clutch pedal (you're shifting)
3. push in gas pedal (you need to rev-match).

That's 3 pedals of feet and you only have two feet. So you have to use one foot to manipulate two pedals. Since the clutch is a long throw pedal and the other two are relatively short throw, the car decides what foot does what:
Left foot: push in clutch
Right foot: big toe side pushes in brake, heel side pushes gas pedal.

It's called "heel and toe" in the car racing world and it's a common technique, sort of like double shifting in the bike world (where you shift both derailleurs at once to get the next gear down or up... you do do that, right?).

Done properly, heel and toe is transparent. You notice nothing because the car slows firmly, the engine blips, and you're suddenly accelerating out of the turn in the correct gear. Ditto, double shifting is transparent. You approach a hill in the 53x19, you hit your two shifters, and now you're in the next lower gear, the 39x15. No one notices, your speed drops a hair as the incline increases, your rpms stay the same, and everyone is happy.

So heel and toe sounds like a "racing" technique, right? I mean, if you're going 70 into a tight turn (like an exit ramp) and you have to slow to 30 but still accelerate out, then perhaps heel and toe is for you. Not necessarily true. I heel and toe to park the car - I shift into first gear and ease the car into a spot. I heel and toe to turn into the driveway. You can apply this technique almost anywhere you slow your car but very few people will notice.

Likewise, you can use tactics all the time. You may not think of them as tactics, but any time you do something to help your riding/racing, that's a tactical move. This includes staying on your friend's wheel when he slithers up the middle of the field, or taking the wheel of the guy slithering up the middle of the field.

The reason why I like bike racing so much is that, in most flat/rolling races, racing is essentially 100% tactical. There's some fitness required, but it's not like running where you have to be fit to vie for the win. If I run a 7 minute mile, no matter what I do, I run a 7 minute mile. And the guy who runs a 6 minute mile will beat me by a minute or so. Bike racing is not like that. I am definitely in the bottom 10% of racers relative to fitness but I can still contest races, even win them sometimes. But put me in a time trial or hill climb and forget it, my true abilities rapidly dissipate any illusion of strength.

This holds true for group rides too, because the dynamics that drive the way a race develops typically drive a group ride as well. You let the no-hopers go because they'll chase themselves back into the group, chase the strong guys, and maybe make a move or two when you feel like it.

Knowing the tactics is the first step. Using them in a subtle way is the second. They should become second nature to you.

Okay, I'll hop off my soap box now.
cdr

Done properly, heel and toe is transparent.

Yeah, a while back I asked my wife if it bothered her that I heel and toe on most corners. She said "you do what?"

"Oh, nothing. So where do you want to eat after we peel you off that door there?" :D

Yeah, a while back I asked my wife if it bothered her that I heel and toe on most corners. She said "you do what?"

"Oh, nothing. So where do you want to eat after we peel you off that door there?" :D

lol. I now have a standing promise to teach four people how to heel/toe - my wife, my teammate who introduced me to her, and her bridesmaid and her husband. I'm just thinking of which clutch to sacrifice.

I should add that when you screw up a heel and toe, it's painfully apparent. That's when I get the looks like "wtf are you doing to the car".

cdr

Likewise, you can use tactics all the time. You may not think of them as tactics, but any time you do something to help your riding/racing, that's a tactical move. This includes staying on your friend's wheel when he slithers up the middle of the field, or taking the wheel of the guy slithering up the middle of the field.

The slither you mention is one of the tactics I'm thinking about. Particularly in a keirin on the track, if you're trying to guard your position behind the moto, you'll use a slither movement on your rear wheel. This will keep the overtaking rider from trying to muscle you out of your position. I've seen this used in crits, albeit inadvertently, and it was very effective. However, it earned the rider the official title of "squirrelly".

A good wheel-taking tactic is the highside, or hook. You position yourself on the inside for a corner (shoulder to hip works best), gradually drift out for the start of the corner, then sprint for the inside. The opposite is the dive, or chop, where you position yourself on the high side, but cut in at the beginning of the corner. Either one of these will earn you a tongue lashing from a competing road racer, as I've experienced. The dive isn't so much a direct copy from the track or BMX, because you'll have additional riders to worry about. The hook works well whenever you have a rider that won't take a long enough pull at the front of a break.

Knowing these moves will make things difficult for riders to take your wheel, as long as you're used to riders leaning on you.

The slither you mention is one of the tactics I'm thinking about. Particularly in a keirin on the track, if you're trying to guard your position behind the moto, you'll use a slither movement on your rear wheel. This will keep the overtaking rider from trying to muscle you out of your position. I've seen this used in crits, albeit inadvertently, and it was very effective. However, it earned the rider the official title of "squirrelly".

A good wheel-taking tactic is the highside, or hook. You position yourself on the inside for a corner (shoulder to hip works best), gradually drift out for the start of the corner, then sprint for the inside. The opposite is the dive, or chop, where you position yourself on the high side, but cut in at the beginning of the corner. Either one of these will earn you a tongue lashing from a competing road racer, as I've experienced. The dive isn't so much a direct copy from the track or BMX, because you'll have additional riders to worry about. The hook works well whenever you have a rider that won't take a long enough pull at the front of a break.

Knowing these moves will make things difficult for riders to take your wheel, as long as you're used to riders leaning on you.

I think CDR is talking about threading through the pack, while you're talking about an intentional "shimmy." This really does work nicely. If you think you'll need to make a move soon, doing a rhythmic weave for 5s or so will guarantee you a wide berth to either side. :beer:

Somewhere, there's video of McEwan doing this from a helicopter view. Space just opens up around him like he farted last week's rotten eggs.

I can't believe I didn't think of that before. F*** me and call me sally.

I'll work on bumping a friend of mine when the season starts up and I can ride an MTB on non-frozen grass-soil. Bumping drills on grass now would be as bad as taking a dive on the tarmac.

lol. It must suck living where it gets that cold. 40 degree celsius here tomorrow.:p

I think CDR is talking about threading through the pack, while you're talking about an intentional "shimmy." This really does work nicely. If you think you'll need to make a move soon, doing a rhythmic weave for 5s or so will guarantee you a wide berth to either side. :beer:

Somewhere, there's video of McEwan doing this from a helicopter view. Space just opens up around him like he farted last week's rotten eggs.

I posted about that ages ago. Its known in Australia as 'swinging on the wheel'. Probably not a good idea in the cats 4s and 5s. :)

I posted about that ages ago. Its known in Australia as 'swinging on the wheel'. Probably not a good idea in the cats 4s and 5s. :)

Yeah, that was the thread - I couldn't remember where it came from. I started using it mid-season, and it worked great (Cat 3, M35+ ;))

I should add that when you screw up a heel and toe, it's painfully apparent.
But when you have a camera in your pedal box, it's something to brag about. :D I love the in car shots at the races like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUXLTjDVgWc

Essentially, to take the wheel, I moved to a spot halfway between the Pro and the Cat 2, waited for the Pro to move over a bit toward me (I figured he'd move based on the course, other racers, etc). The Cat 2 was surprised to find me there, couldn't move over because I was in his sphere of safety, and suddenly I was on the Pro's wheel. The Cat 2's first error was he was not trying to "keep" the Pro's wheel, he was simply following it.
Another thing is you can sit right beside him and yell at the rider in front of him to switch in your direction. In essence the wheel you want moves onto your front wheel. The rider who was on the wheel has to go through you to get the wheel they want. This works really well in tight or twisting roads where the group is strung out. The line that is being set will do the work for you.I've found this is the easiest way to take a wheel. You don't even need to have any cooperation from the guy ahead whose wheel you want to take! :)

Let's way you've got a train of 2 guys and you want to sweep off the 2nd guy to follow the front guy for the leadout. Easy way is to take his wheel as he drifts out of a corner. So if there's a right corner coming up, you position yourself on the left on the outside even with the 2nd guy. Then as all three of you exit the right corner, the lead guy will drift out wide to the left. You don't drift as wide and both you and the 2nd guy carve a slightly tighter curve. The lead guy will automatically move over in front of you and leave the 2nd guy out in the wind... hah, hah, hahahahahaa!!! ;)

As for taking guys off your wheel, I find that by cornering faster and tighter than those following, you can get them off your wheel easily in the corners. I purposely practice cornering by leaning my body inwards more and keeping the bike upright. This lets me pedal deeper into the corners and start pedaling earlier than the others. I can easily get 5-6ft gap opened up in the corners without much effort at all.

As for taking guys off your wheel, I find that by cornering faster and tighter than those following, you can get them off your wheel easily in the corners. I purposely practice cornering by leaning my body inwards more and keeping the bike upright. This lets me pedal deeper into the corners and start pedaling earlier than the others. I can easily get 5-6ft gap opened up in the corners without much effort at all.

+1 this works for me as well. Another trick I do sometimes is let a gap form in front of me so I can take the corner even faster. I make sure to exit the corner a couple cogs lower than entry, and wind up an 85% sprint, and I can reel in 5 or 6 places.

....not that the thought of me entering any races is keeping anyone up at night but....:rolleyes:

You can call me wussy or whatever but stuff like that is what keeps me from sticking my toe in the racing waters...I like my collarbones & bike just the way they are...in one piece. ;)

Wussy !! :D

I think CDR is talking about threading through the pack

yep. No iffy riding, just straight forward stuff. If you start skipping your rear wheel side to side, you're broadcasting that you're trying to do something, essentially inviting others to try and undo what you're trying to do. It gets others mad and makes them want to beat you. It's apparently the reason why football coaches and the like always praise the team they just demolished because they don't want to give motivation to that team for the next game. They praise their opponent's running game, comment they got a few lucky breaks, and the opponent was a strong team and they were honored to beat them 49-3. Or something like that.

One racer, an Olympic alternate to an earlier US Olympic road team, totally annihilated the field in an "open" (i.e. non-licensed) race the first time I ever did it. On the podium interview, he made some disparaging remarks about the other racers. Mind you, this guy was a Cat 1 and won numerous state championships (and beat me by 11 minutes in a 25 mi TT), he was a fixture on the national circuit, and he really has nothing to prove, especially in a dinky unofficial race. Yet he averaged about 27 or 28 mph for the 20 mile hilly route, soloing within a few hundred meters of the start. Strong mofo but socially not 100% so he comes across poorly.

Anyway, he didn't play the game after the race. You know, where he says things like the football coach - "I want to thank the sponsors, including the bagel place for the great bagels they gave everyone after the race, the promoter for putting on such a nice race, and all the racers for making the day challenging for me. I had to work really hard to earn this win." Instead, he cracked jokes on how it was easier than a training ride, "you call this a race?", etc. That pissed me off (as well as all of the guys who were chasing like mad the whole time, most of them Cat 3s and 4s).

So the next year, I brought a lot of Cat 3s and 4s teammates and one 2 ringer type guy, we worked together, set up the 2 for the win, and he won in a three up sprint. Mr You Call This A Race got second and a Cat 4 teammate got third. Very satisfying. During the race, Mr You Call This A Race got belligerent, calling us names, telling us doing this event was illegal (it was, since we had USCF licenses, but then again, so did he), etc etc.

Cat 2 winner played the game - "this is a great race, great course, really nice people, and a lot of nice sponsors" etc etc. My strategy was immediately apparent as we had perhaps 15 guys at the race but we raced clean, just used team tactics as best we could. Since the course is very hilly, there's some level of individual strength required, so we needed to bluff the guy until he gave up. He made the first 15 minutes living hell for us but after that the race was ok.

The following year, the Cat 2 showed up with his own full time semi-pro friends (there was a lot of money for top 3 and he figured they could win most of it), and they got first, second (barely), fourth, and something else. Mr You Call This A Race pulled off the course 20 or 30 meters short of the line - he officially DNFed, probably because he wouldn't be winning. Whatever the reason, he earned a reputation for being a sore loser.

During the race, I didn't have the same type of "shock and awe" team as the prior year. But guys who were still steamed about the way Mr You Call This A Race disparaged their efforts two years prior came up to me and asked me how they could help me out, even though they were on rival teams. They just wanted to help beat the guy that dissed them.

Anyway, the moral of the story is that I pull the cheap shots only when I'm dealing with someone who already pulled the cheap shots. I don't want to go around antagonizing everyone I race against because it's a small community and word spreads quickly. If someone does antagonize me, okay, then I need to fight back. But if I race so cleanly and so smoothly that the others don't even know I'm taking them to the cleaners, well, that's the best way to race.

The best way to race is to race clean against the cheap shot racers and beat them. It's like beating a doper - they cheated and they still couldn't beat you.

Leave the cheap shots to the cheap shotters, take the high road, and you never have to doubt your results.

cdr

+1 this works for me as well. Another trick I do sometimes is let a gap form in front of me so I can take the corner even faster. I make sure to exit the corner a couple cogs lower than entry, and wind up an 85% sprint, and I can reel in 5 or 6 places.

You post some really good stuff but I reckon thats mostly crap. A waste of time and energy in my opinion. :) Let someone behind you do that and just pick them up on the way through. Likely someone else will have the wheel behind but if you move rightward 'vigorously' they will have a sook and likely give it up. Save yourself an 85% effort. Biccies you can better use later on.