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Just curious as to how much saddle set back y'all are using on your tandems and to know if you use more or less than you do on your single bikes?
Specifically,
1. How tall are You
2. What's your Inseam
3. What's your Shoe Size
4. How much Saddle Set-Back do you use on your single
5. How much Saddle Set-Back do you use on your tandem
http://www.bikeforest.com/CAD/faq/saddle_setback_dimension.gif
In the spirit of giving, I'll offer up my own...
1. How tall are You: 5'8"
2. What's your Inseam: 30:
3. What's your Shoe Size: 42 (Euro)
4. How much Saddle Set-Back do you use on your single: 6 cm
5. How much Saddle Set-Back do you use on your tandem: 6 cm
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1. 6'1"
2 34.5 cycling inseam
3.45.5
4.8.3 cm
5.8.3 cm
I believe that my position is my position,whether road,mtb,cross,or tandem.I think I have better endurance/performance when I set the bikes as close as possible.
Just curious as to how much saddle set back y'all are using on your tandems and to know if you use more or less than you do on your single bikes?
1. How tall are You: 5' 8 1/2"
2. What's your Inseam: 30 inches
3. What's your Shoe Size: 8 1/2 American or 42 Euro
I have different saddles on my single and tandem and they are different lengths so I don't know how useful the set-back measurement will be but
4. How much Saddle Set-Back do you use on your single: 5 cm (with a Performance E3 on a Kestrel Talon)
5. How much Saddle Set-Back do you use on your tandem: 5.5 cm (with a Terry Fly)
Bloomington, IN
Santana Niobium (Medium, Medium)
1. 5'10" and shrinking
2. I don't know, I only know what height my saddle should be set to.
3. why is this relevant, just asking
4. and 5. Two inches
I am with dfcas, my riding position is my riding position on every rode bike I own. The only bike that it is different on is my TT bike (I do not MTB).
Height ..5' 11"
Inseam...31
Shoe....45 euro or 10.5 US.
Set back on my touring/cross bike = 4.0 cm
Set back on my road/tri bike = 4.8 cm
Setback on my C'dale Tandem = 4.2 cm
Regarding seats with shorter or longer noses. The measurements shown above were "trued up" using the Terry Fly seat on the tandem as a base. I measured the"nose to sit bone" distances on it and campared it to the others That distance was shorter on the touring bike seat so I adjusted the actual distance for that in the answer you see above. The Sella on the raod bike was the same as the Terry Fly so no adjustment was needed on that one.
TG, Thanks for your surveys in general, as well as questionds like these because I find them thought provoking, educational and they frequently lead to things that make our tandem and cycling experience a little more fun.
Bill J.
3. why is this relevant, just asking
It's one of the key dimensions used in bike fitting that most folks will know right off the top of their heads... whereas femur length and hip socket to floor aren't. I'm simply going for the low hanging fruit that might offer some context for the different set-back that folks might report.
1. How tall are You: 6'4"
2. What's your Inseam: 37.4" or 95 cm
3. What's your Shoe Size: 48 (Euro) 13 (US)
4. How much Saddle Set-Back do you use on your single: 10 cm
5. How much Saddle Set-Back do you use on your tandem: 10 cm
You didn't ask but I run 85.5 cm, center of crank to top of saddle.
I also have all my measurements and bike set if you want any of it.
The reason why this is important is #1. because if you are too far forward you limit the pedal stroke and will be less efficient. #2. You can't use the saddle as the anchor point to push from.
Picture the right crank arm as a clock face. If you are too far forward your stroke will start as late as 3 o'clock. The farther back you are the sooner you can start the stroke which is more efficient. Mine starts at 1:30.
Also you can slide back on the saddle, wedging your butt there and use the saddle as an anchor point (like the seat back on the leg press at the gym) to push forward on the pedal by gettting behind the pedal with your heel down.
It doesn't matter if it is a single or tandem.
You want more power you got it. If you are bobbing your head and upper body (compensating because your riding style leaves you without and anchor to push from) your setup/fit/style needs to be changed.
The proper way to set this up is to plumbbob a string from the bone just below your knee down to the pedal with a level crankarm. The string should be just aft of the pedal axle. Careful, you can go too far, and hyperextend your knee. When you slide the saddle backward you will have to adjust height down. Because of the angle of the seat tube. If you are running anything more than 73.5 degree seat tube you are robbing yourself of this setback advantage. (all those small frames) except for Orbea, Look, and some Lemond. Check the mfg spec before you buy.
Once your get the seat right the stem is next, to adjust your reach.
Womens specific designs suck, because when they shorten the top tube to be womens specific they stand the seat tube up. Where is all of a woman's power? In her legs, the lack of setback prevents her from getting all the power she can. You see a lot of women bobbing up and down because of this bad setup. Anybody bobbing up and down should be told unless you race against them, or are the club big mouth smartass.
Where is all of a woman's power? In her legs, the lack of setback prevents her from getting all the power she can. You see a lot of women bobbing up and down because of this bad setup. Anybody bobbing up and down should be told unless you race against them, or are the club big mouth smartass.
Heck they shouldn't even let women ride bicycles!!
You gotta love the first day sign-up trolls :).
Rats, and I told you. Sorry to the rest of your group/:)
Geeios, you must be a proponent of KOPS. A good starting point but far from the be all end all of power positioning on the bike. KOPS is really old school, so you must not really be a newbie.
Now, although I am not a devotee of KOPS my saddle position is surprisingly close to KOPS. I beleive that everyone has a natural position that feels right and will deliver near optimal power for their particular riding style and body type. Sometimes that places the knee over the pedal spindle, sometimes ahead or behind. Sometimes the ball of your foot is over the pedal spindle sometimes the ball is ahead. You simply cannot make blanket statements like you did and expect not to have others disagree.
Only with extensive testing and sometimes re-engineering a riders mechanics can you really find the "perfect" balance of fit, comfort and power output. In most cases with these adjustments we are only talking about fractions of watts (unless we are talking about gross errors in either technique or fit). With trial and error you can find a good enough riding position that provides for adequate comfort and power output, and that position does not necessarily require plumb bobs or laser pointers.
We got to ride with another tandem couple this past Sunday. The Stoker (respect for the Stoker makes me want to capitalize the first letter), suggested that my daughters position on the bike was wrong, that she should be more upright and the bars should be higher. My daughter all of seventeen whispered and asked me what she could be talking about. I suggested that perhaps the difference in age and flexibility was why she said those things. After our exchange, we politely told her that her riding position on the tandem was exactly the same as on her single bike and that there was no need to change it. Just goes to show, that everyone has a way to fit you on a bike and no one single way works for everyone. There is just more than one way to skin this cat.
BTW, the way her fit position was determined was on a Compu-Trainer with a coach, where things were adjusted first for comfort (I actually had her very close without the coach) and then small adjustments were made over several sessions to maximize power.
1. 5'10"
2. 32"
3. 44
4. 10.2
5. 10.2
I agree with Waldo, fit is highly personal. Physiology, riding style and even terrain,
all play an important role in how we set up our bikes. I still mess with my set up
from time to time,...always trying squeeze out alittle more power from a little less
energy.
Geek,...as said above,...I also appreciate your ongoing quest for information and
your willingness to share what you've learned.
Rich
1. 5'10"
2. 32"
3. 44
4. 7cm
5. 7cm
OK, let's say my setup is off and needs to be tweaked. After the changes are made will I see an immediate improvement in my efficiency/power transfer or will it take some time for the body to adjust? If it takes some time, how long?
OK, let's say my setup is off and needs to be tweaked. After the changes are made will I see an immediate improvement in my efficiency/power transfer or will it take some time for the body to adjust? If it takes some time, how long?
If set back is off just a little bit it usually means that a rider will find themselves sitting centered on the saddle instead of riding on the rivet (nose) or sitting off the back: the body tends to settle into a natural position. The primary change will be in comfort and that should be realized immediately.
When it's discovered that set back was substantially off, it often times takes several other changes to correct, e.g., saddle height, saddle tilt angle, stem length, and stem rise. This is why set back is always considered the starting point for bike fitting.
For example, let's assume that someone had their saddle too far forward. Moving it back would increase reach and stretch out the rider unless the stem is also shortened (or lengthened if we're talking about a stoker). As stems are shortened or lengthened the bar height also changes and needs to be corrected via spacers for a captain's fixed stem or moving the stoker's boom up or down the captain's seatpost. Moving the saddle back on the rails also lowers the saddle, so in addition to sliding the saddle back it needs to be raised.
Back to your question regarding rider impact, it depends. Some riders are very sensitive to position, whereas others either aren't or have simply learned to know how different bike set-ups should feel, e.g., moving from their road bike to a time trial bike to a mountain bike or a tandem: all four are likely to be a bit different. So, it varies. However, it has been my experience that it takes a pretty long ride to get acclimated to a new riding position and then comes the sore muscles the day after that were never sore before. That's usually your first indication that the change has actually brought muscles into use differently than they were before. It will usually be in subsequent rides that, after getting over the sore butt -- new positions come with all kinds of issues -- you can decide if the change was for the better or if some additional tweaking is needed. Again, as for how profound these changes will feel, it varies from rider to rider depending on how much gthey ride, their level of fitness, and so on.
From the average tandem team's perspective, this can also be a challenge with regard to getting stoker's riding position set properly if they're not already an avid cyclist... that is, unless you're under 40 and can still read minds. I know that I can't and I also know that my wife has a very high threshold for enduring pain and discomfort... much to her detriment as a cyclist. Therefore, it's usually when I ride behind her on our infrequent single bike rides, see photos of us on the tandem, or when she requests a change to her single bike or the tandem's riding position that I discover she's been dealing with an emerging fit issue. Of course, as you'd expect, the aging process... seasonal weight gain or loss... seasonal activity or inactivity.... all factor into how someone "feels" when they get back on the bike. In the winter when I tend to ride my single bike more often than the tandem, Debbie will invariably ask me if I've changed her saddle position after she's been off the tandem for a few weeks, even though she knows that nothing's been changed. She'll then acknowledge that she'll just have to work herself back into her fit, having learned that continually tweaking things around only leads to a never-ending-process of tweaking things around and never being able to get settled-in.
The more I read on this the more I think there are as many 'perfect' positions as people. Every coach / positioner has a slightly different view, for example the functional (i.e. what works in practice is good) versus measurement approach (i.e. dimension x should be 78.232% of dimension y).
I think the most telling argument is to take a look a sean kelly. His position was miles out of whack (saddle far too low etc.) yet he won plenty of races. Why? He did lots of training and improved his efficiency in that position. In my view it's a good idea to get it in the right ballpark using measurements then modify it to fit you based on time and experience, changing one item at a time by 2-3mm and giving it time to see if you like it.
1. 5'9"
2. 32" approx
3. 43
4. 5.75cm as the cranks are 175mm. Saddle height is also reduced by 2.5mm
5. 6cm as the cranks are 172.5mm
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