Electric Bikes - Must Read: Some Definitions of Electrically Assisted Bicycles

There appears to be some confusion among some members of this forum as to what regulators define as an electrically assisted bicycle. Since my area of interest is Ontario, I have collected this information concerning vehicles sold in Ontario. Other members may wish to post government regulations in their jurisdictions.

It is my hope that this post might become a sticky, so that members considering a purchase will be aware of regulations in their province/state/country.

For the assistance of new members, I ask that posters stick to the post topic and not use this to attack other members or regulators. If you don't like the rules, post your own thread.


Definitions
According to the Highway Traffic Act (Ontario)
Bicycle
Includes a tricycle and unicycle but does not include a motor assisted bicycle

Motor assisted bicycle,
(a) means a bicycle that is fitted with pedals that are operable at all times
(b) weighs no more than fifty-five kilograms

Vehicle
Includes a motor vehicle, trailer, traction engine, farm tractor, road building machine, bicycle and any vehicle drawn, propelled or driven by any kind of power, including muscular power but does not include a motorized snow vehicle or a streetcar.


Ontario Power-assisted bicycle Trial definitions

power-assisted bicycle

A power-assisted bicycle is also known as an "electric bicycle" or "e-bike."
An e-bike is a bicycle with an added battery powered electric motor that does not exceed 500 watts and can assist the cyclist up to a speed of 32 km/h.
It can also be driven like a bicycle without any power assist.
The addition of the power assist enables the rider to pedal with less effort, to achieve a greater distance, to climb hills and ride against the wind more easily. In its size, weight, speed and the driving skills required, the e-bike is similar to the conventional bicycle
Has steering handlebars and is equipped with pedals
Is designed to be propelled primarily by muscular power and to travel on not more than three wheels
Has a motor that has a power output rating of 500W or less (note: the motor is electric, and is incapable of propelling the cycle at speed of 32km/h or greater on level ground, without pedaling.)
Must bear label indicating vehicle as a "Power-Assisted Bicycle".

here ya go :)

karma posted a sticker (sadly not legible) that must be on all ebikes in Ontario stating that the vehicle passes federal safety regulations. These regulations are Canadian standards. Provinces get to trump these standards as they are the regulators.


MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY ACTAn Act to regulate the manufacture and
importation of motor vehicles and motor vehicle equipment to reduce the risk of death, injury and damage to property and the environment

"power-assisted bicycle"« bicyclette assistée »
"power-assisted bicycle" means a vehicle that:

(a) has steering handlebars and is equipped with pedals,
(b) is designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground,
(c) is capable of being propelled by muscular power,
(d) has one or more electric motors that have, singly or in combination, the following characteristics:
(i) it has a total continuous power output rating, measured at the shaft of each motor, of 500 W or less,
(ii) if it is engaged by the use of muscular power, power assistance immediately ceases when the muscular power ceases,
(iii) if it is engaged by the use of an accelerator controller, power assistance immediately ceases when the brakes are applied, and
(iv) it is incapable of providing further assistance when the bicycle attains a speed of 32 km/h on level ground,
(e) bears a label that is permanently affixed by the manufacturer and appears in a conspicuous location stating, in both official languages, that the vehicle is a power-assisted bicycle as defined in this subsection, and
(f) has one of the following safety features,
(i) an enabling mechanism to turn the electric motor on and off that is separate from the accelerator controller and fitted in such a manner that it is operable by the driver, or
(ii) a mechanism that prevents the motor from being engaged before the bicycle attains a speed of 3 km/h.

This is some good info

http://www.icbc.com/registration/reg_rules_low_pwr_mtr_asstd_cycles.asp

Stokell I respect your opinion and all but I must sadly 100% DISAGREE with you. These are indeed E-BIKES and nothing more.

You are quite persistant...I will give you that much. LOL!!!!!!!

Hello Stokell, I would really like to see a link to where you got this from

Motor assisted bicycle,
(a) means a bicycle that is fitted with pedals that are operable at all times
(b) weighs no more than fifty-five kilograms


A motor assisted bicycle is also know as a Moped and must be licensed and insured. An e-bike as of yet does not have a defined wieght limit in Ontario.

Hello Stokell, I would really like to see a link to where you got this from

Motor assisted bicycle,
(a) means a bicycle that is fitted with pedals that are operable at all times
(b) weighs no more than fifty-five kilograms

A motor assisted bicycle is also know as a Moped and must be licensed and insured. An e-bike as of yet does not have a defined wieght limit in Ontario.

My authority is none other than the Highway Traffic Act. Every law enforcement officer in Ontario has a short form. You can buy one from a book store or read it on-line at:
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90h08_e.htm

Stokell I respect your opinion and all but I must sadly 100% DISAGREE with you. These are indeed E-BIKES and nothing more.

You are quite persistant...I will give you that much. LOL!!!!!!!

This thread deals with law. If you disagree with the law, I advise you to contact your politician.

If you disagree with me posting this thread; start your own.

I am not opposed to this thread....I am opposed about the incorrect information stated in your post. Veloteq Ebikes are exactly that...E-BIKES. They follow every defination of an Ebike and therefore are indeed E-Bikes. Nothing more nothing less.

power-assisted bicycle

A power-assisted bicycle is also known as an "electric bicycle" or "e-bike."
True...which is what my Veloteq IS.
An e-bike is a bicycle with an added battery powered electric motor that does not exceed 500 watts and can assist the cyclist up to a speed of 32 km/h.
Ditto
It can also be driven like a bicycle without any power assist.
It can be a little hard but ditto on this as well.
The addition of the power assist enables the rider to pedal with less effort, to achieve a greater distance, to climb hills and ride against the wind more easily. In its size, weight, speed and the driving skills required, the e-bike is similar to the conventional bicycle
Framewise....ditto.
Has steering handlebars and is equipped with pedals
Ditto
Is designed to be propelled primarily by muscular power and to travel on not more than three wheels
Depends on the rider...otherwise ditto.
Has a motor that has a power output rating of 500W or less (note: the motor is electric, and is incapable of propelling the cycle at speed of 32km/h or greater on level ground, without pedaling.)

Ditto
Must bear label indicating vehicle as a "Power-Assisted Bicycle".

Also ditto as well.


Defeated by your own reasoning bud. :D

The law passed by the Ontario Legislature which defines a power assisted electric bicycle is totally harmonized with the Federal Regulation, MVSA Subpara. 2.1. It makes no reference to the use muscular power, nor is there any reference to weight or configuration. This is the empowering legislation, verbatim. If one is compliant with this definition, there is no need for confusion.

ONTARIO REGULATION 473/06
made under the
HIGHWAY TRAFFIC ACT
Made: August 24, 2006
Filed: October 3, 2006
Published on e-Laws: October 4, 2006
Printed in The Ontario Gazette: October 21, 2006
PILOT PROJECT — POWER-ASSISTED BICYCLES
Definition
1. (1) In this Regulation,
“power-assisted bicycle” means a bicycle that,
(a) is a power-assisted bicycle as defined in subsection 2 (1) of the Motor Vehicle
Safety Regulations made under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada), and
(b) bears a label affixed by the manufacturer in compliance with the definition
referred to in clause (a).
(2) A power-assisted bicycle is deemed to not be a motor vehicle under the Act.
Pilot project re power-assisted bicycles
2. A pilot project to evaluate the use of power-assisted bicycles on highways is
established.
Regulation of power-assisted bicycles
3. (1) Under this project, any person who is 16 years old or over may ride or drive a
power-assisted bicycle on a highway.
(2) No person who is the owner or is in possession or control of a power-assisted
bicycle shall permit a person who is under 16 years old to ride or drive the power-assisted
bicycle on a highway.
(3) Subject to subsections (1) and (2) and despite the definitions of “bicycle” and
“motor assisted bicycle” in subsection 1 (1) of the Act, the Act applies to a power-assisted
bicycle and the riding or driving of a power-assisted bicycle as if it were a bicycle and not a
motor assisted bicycle or motor vehicle.
(4) Despite section 5 of Regulation 610 of the Revised Regulations of Ontario, 1990
(Safety Helmets) made under the Act, no person shall ride or drive a power-assisted bicycle on a
highway unless he or she is wearing a bicycle helmet as required by subsection 104 (2.1) of the
Act.
Revocation
4. This Regulation is revoked on the third anniversary of the day it is filed.

I am not opposed to this thread....I am opposed about the incorrect information stated in your post. Veloteq Ebikes are exactly that...E-BIKES. They follow every defination of an Ebike and therefore are indeed E-Bikes. Nothing more nothing less.

power-assisted bicycle

A power-assisted bicycle is also known as an "electric bicycle" or "e-bike."
True...which is what my Veloteq IS.
An e-bike is a bicycle with an added battery powered electric motor that does not exceed 500 watts and can assist the cyclist up to a speed of 32 km/h.
Ditto
It can also be driven like a bicycle without any power assist.
It can be a little hard but ditto on this as well.
The addition of the power assist enables the rider to pedal with less effort, to achieve a greater distance, to climb hills and ride against the wind more easily. In its size, weight, speed and the driving skills required, the e-bike is similar to the conventional bicycle
Framewise....ditto.
Has steering handlebars and is equipped with pedals
Ditto
Is designed to be propelled primarily by muscular power and to travel on not more than three wheels
Depends on the rider...otherwise ditto.
Has a motor that has a power output rating of 500W or less (note: the motor is electric, and is incapable of propelling the cycle at speed of 32km/h or greater on level ground, without pedaling.)

Ditto
Must bear label indicating vehicle as a "Power-Assisted Bicycle".

Also ditto as well.


Defeated by your own reasoning bud. :D


Take a deep breath, then read this thread thoroughly. It's not about you. This is a post about law. You don't argue about law, you change it. If you don't like what has been posted, then start your own post called "Why I Don't like the Law".

I have posted no incorrect informatiom in this thread and I consider any suggestion as a personal attack.

We all love electric bikes. That's good. We all would like them to be legal that's good.

In Ontario in October, 2009, our government will decide which ebikes allowed will be allowed after the test phase as well as which will be regulated and which will not. This thread, as explained at the beginning is not about opinion. It is about current regulations.

As I hope this post becomes a sticky, I respectfully ask you to post your opinions on a separate thread.

I have posted no incorrect informatiom in this thread and I consider any suggestion as a personal attack.
.

Sorry but that is just plain wrong and self rightous.



As I hope this post becomes a sticky, I respectfully ask you to post your opinions on a separate thread.

Freedom of speech is a good thing no? :P

Sorry but until you realize that what you are spouting out is incorrect I cannot sit by.

Yesterday I want to my local Licence Bureau and brought my Ebike with me. I then asked them what it is truly classed as....guess what....they agreed with me that it is an Ebike and nothing more. Sorry to say that I will take their word over yours any day...respectfully. Same with Veloteq. They designed them and they know what they designed...an Ebike...nothing more.

Sorry to say this but you need to stop being so Elitest and get with the program bud. I am not attacking you....just telling you the truth.

.

In Ontario in October, 2009, our government will decide which ebikes allowed will be allowed after the test phase as well as which will be regulated and which will not..

This is the key thing, I think. At this moment, they are Ebikes, the government, if it so wishes, could change that. Of course, that would be stupid, and governments never do anything stupid, right? :p

Here is the Alberta definition, the restrictions are on the next page.
http://www.infratrans.gov.ab.ca/1030.htm

This is the key thing, I think. At this moment, they are Ebikes, the government, if it so wishes, could change that. Of course, that would be stupid, and governments never do anything stupid, right? :p


Well I have NEVER known a Government to do anything right....that for sure. :(

Coldfeet....that is a Gas Powered Model.....we are debating over the Electric versions known as Ebikes.

in sydney we have the dumbest ebike law that states we can only use a pedal assist electric powered bike yes its not called a vechile over here and that peddle assist bikes motor must not exceed a tiny 200 watts lol this is one of thos cases where some idiot got it so wrong and didnt take into acount 200 watts isnt even as fast as pedaling a normal bike geeee man you dont need to be a rocket scientist to work this one out,hopefully they will change this silly law very soon as people do want to use these electric bike but they all say 200 is usless

ps nomal rider can put out 750 watts by his legs i am told

http://www.veloteq.com/links_to_laws.htm
Veloteq has a link page to ebike regulations in both the US and Canada.

This isn't quite so black and white. Legally, the style of e-bike as a pseudo scooter such as the Veloteq is indeed still within legal boundaries. If you consider it from a point of view which takes abstract human logic into effect rather than a simple yes/no (which personally, I find both you Stokell and you Digikid, to be guilty of), then the answer is quite simple: grey area.

Veloteq meets the basic guidelines, and in the area concerning "primarily designed for muscular power", this particular section can be considered as useless as the definition of "Has a motor that has a power output rating of 500W or less (note: the motor is electric, and is incapable of propelling the cycle at speed of 32km/h or greater on level ground, without pedaling.)"

As we all know, 500w of output can have drastically different results based on setup, and is for all realistic purposes a useless definition.

The same can be said of "Is designed to be propelled primarily by muscular power", as you simply cannot state simply due to design that this is violated: I simply see no way that you could legally define something which, when all things being relatively even, is up to the rider, and not the vehicle. Unless there is a clear cut case (such as the forementioned faux scooter e-bikes with *completely* non-functional pedals), one cannot justify this point.

The closest limitation that the Veloteq comes near violating is "In its size, weight, speed and the driving skills required, the e-bike is similar to the conventional bicycle"

Now, the weight is a clear disparity and cannot even come close to compare. Veloteq's weigh as much as 8 normal bicycles. If you really wanted to nab Veloteq on something, this would be it. But wait, go read the Canada Gazette, 2001 edition section, Vol. II, April 11th release, and go down to SQR 117
http://canadagazette.gc.ca/partII/2001/20010411/pdf/g2-13508.pdf

So, what do you see mentioning weight?

Absolutely nothing aside from wording. There's no solid upper limit set by the government of Canada. Here in Alberta there is one, one which the Veloteq violates, I believe, but there you are. Now, i'll have a counterpoint to my own point in a bit, but I must go work on this Paquet before its due. Will continue this on later, but ultimately my point is going to be, you're both right *and* wrong. Sort of. Be patient. Back in a bit.

Alright, so i've returned.

Now, as mentioned, there is currently no weight limitation for an electric-assist bicycle in Canada unless provided distinctly through *provincial* legislation. However, its well worth noting, that as in this post:

Hello Stokell, I would really like to see a link to where you got this from
Motor assisted bicycle,
(a) means a bicycle that is fitted with pedals that are operable at all times
(b) weighs no more than fifty-five kilograms

A motor assisted bicycle is also know as a Moped and must be licensed and insured. An e-bike as of yet does not have a defined weight limit in Ontario.

Motor assisted bicycles currently *do* have a weight limit, one which is 55kg (20kg lower than the limit here in Alberta, where the Veloteq is over the limit. This would place the Veloteq style of scooter FAR above the limit, were this also imposed on e-bike legislation)

They fall in line with e-bike laws at the moment, but as demonstrated by the poorly thought out regulations of:

Is designed to be propelled primarily by muscular power and to travel on not more than three wheels
Has a motor that has a power output rating of 500W or less (note: the motor is electric, and is incapable of propelling the cycle at speed of 32km/h or greater on level ground, without pedaling.)

its apparently obvious to me, that the e-bike regulations here in Canada are poorly thought out *to begin with*

It also seems to be notable that they had the insight to provide limitations for the motorized bicycle class, but failed to set solid guidelines on e-bikes, leaving nothing but unenforcable murk.

I can't personally think of a reason to set a defined limitation on a vehicle designed for primarily motor driven use while leaving a primarily human powered vehicle unregulated. It seems backwards.

Until an official with the proper credentials and station of the government can effectively display how the first point can even be decided, or how the second point even serves a purpose, I consider my opinion to be valid.

Now, as i've said before, in order to define an accurate weight limitation for a human powered vehicle, testing and research would be required, and i'm not about to start spewing any numbers. What I do know personally however, is that while the scooter style e-bike might be within "legal boundaries", as far as my own personal cycling boundaries are concerned, 165lbs of too wide, too awkward is well out of line with what I feel is a "bicycle".

I believe then, that you come to a point where legally, Digikid has the ball, whereas from a human perspective, Stokell does.

Abneycat. I have no problem admitting if I am wrong....however in this case of DEFINATION I stay by my previous judgement. Yes the Veloteqs are heavy. Granted. However that by itself does not make it a non Ebike.

Good Read though. :)

It seems some posters to this thread have a clear conflict of interest. Is there anyone here who sells or works for someone directly or indirectly who sells what is currently being sold as an electric bike?

This is starting to sound like a Veloteq forum.

ps nomal rider can put out 750 watts by his legs i am told

Only if you wear blue underwear on the outside and have a big red S on your shirt.

Normal pedaling requires around 100 watts. It is said that Lance Armstrong can maintain 500 watts for about 20 minutes. My guess is the rest of us are closer to the 100 watt end than the 500 watt end. So a 200 watt assist isn't all that bad.

Eric

Is there anyone here who sells or works for someone directly or indirectly who sells what is currently being sold as an electric bike?


Yep, Me:D

The problem as I see it is that people are trying to define what a bike is when really what governments are trying to do is promote a green form of transportation. The masses will not ride open frame bikes with motors but they will use lower powered scooter style ebikes. Just ask 16 millon Chinese riders.


This is starting to sound like a Veloteq forum

Whats wrong with that;)

Well I have NEVER known a Government to do anything right....that for sure. :(

Coldfeet....that is a Gas Powered Model.....we are debating over the Electric versions known as Ebikes.

Errrm... No. Have another look.
"has a motor that produces not more than 750 watts and is driven by electricity or has an engine"

EDIT: I'm sorry, did I leave off the sarcasm tag in my original reply?:p

Motor assisted bicycles currently *do* have a weight limit, one which is 55kg (20kg lower than the limit here in Alberta, where the Veloteq is over the limit. This would place the Veloteq style of scooter FAR above the limit, were this also imposed on e-bike legislation)
.
Did you mean higher than the Alberta limits?


its apparently obvious to me, that the e-bike regulations here in Canada are poorly thought out *to begin with*
.

Got to totally agree with you there.

I'm just working on being happy we have something.

ps nomal rider can put out 750 watts by his legs i am told

But not for very long! David Gordon Wilson's Bicycling Science 3rd edition page 44 has a graph of maximum sustainable power in watts versus duration in minutes. Top world class cyclists, with Eddy Merckx (5 time Tour de France winner) being the closest data point, have maintained 500 watts for 50 minutes.

Closer to us mortals, the NASA range for healthy men is 500 watts for between about 45" to 3 minutes maximum. 750 watts for NASA's healthy man curve is about 30 seconds maximum.

Edit: I should note that the watts in the legislation may refer to watts of electricity used by the motor rather than watts produced by the motor and available to move the bicycle. I'm sure others have some figures for the efficiency of the electric motor and drive train. My guess is it is less than 90% but hopefully more than 40%. In that case, the 500 watt electric bicycle would not keep up with Merckx for a 50 minute race on the flat without some assist by pedaling.

Only if you wear blue underwear on the outside and have a big red S on your shirt.

Normal pedaling requires around 100 watts. It is said that Lance Armstrong can maintain 500 watts for about 20 minutes. My guess is the rest of us are closer to the 100 watt end than the 500 watt end. So a 200 watt assist isn't all that bad.

Eric
ummm it is all that bad carrying a adult rider along with 2 lead acid batteries and the wieght of the bike itself i can walk up a hill faster

It seems some posters to this thread have a clear conflict of interest. Is there anyone here who sells or works for someone directly or indirectly who sells what is currently being sold as an electric bike?

This is starting to sound like a Veloteq forum.

I’ve waited a couple of days for Digikid to post his/her conflict of interest information.

I own an e-bike which was recently stolen. I’m building up a new one for the spring. I have no interest in any business that sells, rents, imports or otherwise deals with electric bikes and / or electric scooters.

In my work life I am a trainer.

Stokell....you want proof? We have already given it to you. Stop be an elitest and look at the links that Golectric has posted....THERE is your proof.

Google helps out as well. I will NOT do your work for you.

Stokell....you want proof? We have already given it to you. Stop be an elitest and look at the links that Golectric has posted....THERE is your proof.

Google helps out as well. I will NOT do your work for you.

Obfuscation will not help you. You obviously have an axe to grind, so be open about it.

What is your connection with the industry and who do you work for?

I did it, you can too.

Obfuscation .... good word!

Obfuscation .... good word!

yeh, I looked it up in Google. (If I knew how to do it, I'd insert a smiley here.)

I work for no one associated for the Ebike industry. I am a simple living person and am just trying to show you the error of your elitest ways.

I am a Computer Technician.....thats all.

See my motto though? Learn it as I never ever relent to anyone or anything that is incorrect such as the drivel that you are trying to spread around.


Obfuscation .... good word!

There is nothing confusing about it at all bud. Quite the opposite actually.

Regarding the Federal Laws regulating electric bicycles, and their definition, there is no confusion of the part of Transport Canada. It was their intention at the beginning to give leeway with regard to the form factor of ebikes, as long as they comply with the speed criteria, in order to allow for developing technologies. They reiterated their prior position in the Canada Gazette in April, 2006, because of confusion resulting in Ontario after the commencement of the Pilot Program. Ontario does not have a sole stake in the laws regulating ebikes. The Veloteq type ebikes have been sold in B.C. and Quebec for years, since 2002 in B.C., and there is no call their for changes. The arguments making reference to weight are somewhat meaningless. What, really, is the difference between a 160 lb person riding a 160 lb ebike and a 260 lb person riding a 60 lb bicycle? Which would you rather be hit by? The ebike is likely easier to control with the light rider than the bicycle with a heavy or overweight rider. The braking systems are better and the swerve better at higher speed appoaching 32 kmh.

The arguments making reference to weight are somewhat meaningless. What, really, is the difference between a 160 lb person riding a 160 lb ebike and a 260 lb person riding a 60 lb bicycle? Which would you rather be hit by? The ebike is likely easier to control with the light rider than the bicycle with a heavy or overweight rider. The braking systems are better and the swerve better at higher speed appoaching 32 kmh.

Is this fact or speculation? If it is fact, please show your supporting information.

www.google.com (http://www.google.com)

EDIT: Okay maybe posting that was a little rude but I believe that if you cannot find this information then why should we do it for you? This Veloteq person is probably from Veloteq and maybe he CANNOT give you that information freely. If that is the case then yes I would be a little wary as well. But let me ask you this.....if you were in Veloteqs position....what would YOU say?

Is it just POSSIBLE, Stokell, that you are misinterpreting this a little? ( sorry for the mispell there. ) Just asking.

im not taking any sides :) but last summer i hit a patch of loose dirt on the road and droped my 200+ izip loaded with led acid. the pedals got me in the back of the Ackles. i couldent walk for 2 weeks. also lost 2 weeks pay. anyway all im saying is no one really cares about the weight until thay loose control than it gets there attention :( its not like just falling off a bicycle its like falling off a sportbike and it lands on you.trust me i speek from Experience




cheers

Is this fact or speculation? If it is fact, please show your supporting information.

and veloteq, others with strong ops on this post have volunteer'd to say if they work in the ebike biz.

;)

It just makes your case a bit stronger if we know your not saying it for $.

heh i dont think stokell going hurt veloteqs sales any. with the new 2008 models coming out with the new
PowerEagle GT motor im tempted to buy one :) could always use a second bike.

What, really, is the difference between a 160 lb person riding a 160 lb ebike and a 260 lb person riding a 60 lb bicycle? Which would you rather be hit by? The ebike is likely easier to control with the light rider than the bicycle with a heavy or overweight rider. The braking systems are better and the swerve better at higher speed appoaching 32 kmh.

Now *this* is misinterpretation. How about a 260lb person riding a 160lb ebike? Don't skew your arguements.

Not as skewed as you are leading people to believe Abneycat

Electric bikes are limited to 500 watts so as you increase weight the speed will decrease. A 250 lbs rider will have a slower top speed then a 150lbs rider therefor the actual kinetic energy will remain close to the same. Kinetic energy increase's exponetialy with speed and this is fact. There are so many different factors to consider. What about the open frame bike loaded with an extra 75lbs in sadlebag's?

Not as skewed as you are leading people to believe Abneycat

Electric bikes are limited to 500 watts so as you increase weight the speed will decrease. A 250 lbs rider will have a slower top speed then a 150lbs rider therefor the actual kinetic energy will remain close to the same. Kinetic energy increase's exponetialy with speed and this is fact. There are so many different factors to consider. What about the open frame bike loaded with an extra 75lbs in sadlebag's?

You're a real spinster. http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

The difference in that case, on flat ground, is negligible at around 1-2kph depending on vehicle. On a downhill slope, your comparison works against your favour. The only considerable difference additional weight presents is on an uphill slope where speeds are considerably lower *overall*

A laden touring frame would still only be 105lbs with those extra 75lbs. And once again you ignore the fact that with those extra 75lbs, the Veloteq would weigh 235-245lbs before rider.

If you want to come on here and present points in favour of your product (which as you've admitted, you're a dealer), I find that acceptable. But present your case in a manner like this and you're not going to be taken very seriously.

What I do know personally however, is that while the scooter style e-bike might be within "legal boundaries", as far as my own personal cycling boundaries are concerned, 165lbs of too wide, too awkward is well out of line with what I feel is a "bicycle".


Just trying to keep things based on fact and not personal feelings. Did you ever wonder if riding a heavier bike could actually be safer then riding a lighter bike in some instances?

Just trying to keep things based on fact and not personal feelings. Did you ever wonder if riding a heavier bike could actually be safer then riding a lighter bike in some instances?

I'm sorry. When you base your argument upon justifying a constant (vehicle weight) with a variable (rider weight, cargo), then what you're doing is basing things on bull excrement, not facts.

As having been an owner of both an e-bike and an Xtracycle (as both a regular and e-bike cargo bike), I happen to have experience with both the weight of an open frame e-bike, and an extremely laden vehicle, and cannot think of a single instance where the additional weight is an asset. I can think of many situations however, where it is *not* an asset. My statement is based upon such, and reflects true riding experience in a myriad of situations. I have no affiliation with any brand, group, product, nothing, and my conclusions are simply based upon facts:

Increased weight, decreased drivetrain efficiency, inferior "cycling" design. This is not an opinion. The *constant* weight value of a Veloteq varies from 165-175lbs based on model, fact. The drivetrain does not provide the same gear ratio as for instance, my Xtracycle with a 44/32/22 crankset and 11-32 gearset, fact. The pedaling stance is, as reported by various users, too wide. This is the basis behind my conclusion.

Please don't speak of personal feelings when you're obviously not an impartial source of information.

Have you ridden a Veloteq? Latley;)

Please take note of the introductory paragraph from the Backgrounder regarding power-assisted bicycles, issued by Transport Canada in April 2007. We do not know for certain, but suspect that MOT may have gone to Transport Canada for clarification with regard the Federal ebike definition. We talk with the same people in Ottawa that they do, and have had only good relations with them for about five years. Please note below that TC states, "a combination of the cyclist and a motor or by the motor power alone". They also went on the clarify that previously they were classified as limited-speed motorcycles.TC created the term "power-assisted bicycle" deliberately to include both the power-on-demand, scooter type, and the power-assisted bicycle type. They determined factors relevant to speed, their primary criterion, and determined the amount of electrical motive power required to maintain that speed by a 170 lb rider on a dry, level surface. That is where the 500W figure came from.

Veloteqs, equipped with our 750W motor and without the limiter, are capable of 26-28 mph, far in excess of the speed permitted for power-assisted bicycles in Canada. This is why we do not ship the 750W models to Canada.
Earlier, it was thought that the use of a 750W motor would enable the bikes to better surmount steep inclines. We solved that problem by changing to a gear-reduction motor which, although rated at 500W, is capable of climbing all hills intended for vehicular traffic. There is some sacrifice of range when using this type of motor, however since most trips are quite short, this can be dealt with by more frequent charging of the batteries.

All new technologies take time to implement. Everyone in the electric vehicle business thas been looking for the magic bullet, THE battery that will weight the least, and store and return the most power. We are continuing our development of a new power supply, a project in which we have been engaged with the same R&D company for over a year. They are on track and so are we. The power supply is to the point where it is being tested at our facility. Assuming that all goes well, we will have them on the market in the third quarter of 2008. The new power supply will enable us to reduce the weight of our ebikes by about 45 lbs., decrease the recharge time, enable many more recharges, and is totally non-polluting. They are not made from the much talked about, but seldom seen, Lithium Iron Phospate batteries. Those appear to be still only in the pre-production stage of development, but that is another subject.

"In 2001, Transport Canada amended the Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations to allow the introduction of power-assisted bicycles in Canada. Power-assisted bicycles are electric bicycles propelled by either a combination of the cyclist and a motor or by the motor alone. Previously, these bicycles were classified as limited-speed motorcycles; however, they did not meet the safety standards for limited-speed motorcycles, and were therefore not for sale in Canada." (Source, Transport Canada Backgrounder-Canada Gazette, April 2006)

The point is that the Federal Government knew from the beginning that new technologies would appear and did not want the form factor to be in the way of them. As much as possible, their aim is to get people out of their cars and onto some other form of transportation.

Is this fact or speculation? If it is fact, please show your supporting information.

The braking systems on the Veloteqs are automotive grade drum brakes with large ceramic brake shoes. The brakes on the vast majority of step-through bikes are simply caliper brakes made of rubber.

Step-through bikes are, by design, top heavy. The primary load is the rider, sitting atop a seat. This requires the rider lean to the side to compensate while swerving. Swerving is a term describing the action of using weight to make or assist turning. In the case of the Veloteq ebikes, the center of gravity is low because of the location of the power supply, under the deck below the rider's feet. Because of this the rider does not have to lean dangerously in order to perfrom a swerve.

The braking systems on the Veloteqs are automotive grade drum brakes with large ceramic brake shoes. The brakes on the vast majority of step-through bikes are simply caliper brakes made of rubber.

Step-through bikes are, by design, top heavy. The primary load is the rider, sitting atop a seat. This requires the rider lean to the side to compensate while swerving. Swerving is a term describing the action of using weight to make or assist turning. In the case of the Veloteq ebikes, the center of gravity is low because of the location of the power supply, under the deck below the rider's feet. Because of this the rider does not have to lean dangerously in order to perfrom a swerve.

With all do respect, stockell asked you to quote sources. What you say makes some logic, but we each have opinion. This still seems to me as opinion. My profs tell me to provide support when writing papers. I don't see it.

We could say the same for you Electrogreen.

We could say the same for you Electrogreen.

"we"? who is we? Are you speaking for someone else other than yourself?
;)

Also, if you mean I haven't come clean, then allow me now

I'm an undergrad in engineering with an intrest in sustainable transportation. I own a e-bike I built myself from parts. I mostly pedal.