This was one of the threads that got deleted through a change over of servers :crash:. We had got it rollin too with quality info on how Whey Protein effects a cyclists/weightlifters performance through supplementation. Can't really remember where we got to... I had most of my ?'s answered in the last thread and I have memorised them but I just have a couple more.
After reading the quality article at http://www.lancearmstrong.com/lance/online2.nsf/htmltdf03/ccrest1, It tells you a little bit about the nutritional demands of a 3 week tour rider by Chris Carmichael, Lance Armstrongs coach...
In the article it states Lance Armstrong aims to get 70% of his calories from carbohydrates (CHO), 15% from protein, and 15% from fat. I'm never gonna argue with this, I believe its 100% correct, BUT....
My questions are, What would happen if I was to wake up on an empty stomach (naturally), take a full Whey Protein shake first thing along with a smaller carbohydrate breakfast (Muesli) and another Whey Protein shake straight after my ride???...
Would I increase my chances of bonking during the ride through a higher protein to carbohydrate ratio of nutrition in my pre-ride breakfast/meal from an intense 3 to 4 hour ride???...
Also, If I was to increase my chances of bonking through a higher protein to carbohydrate intake, Would I inturn see better gains in terms of adding more muscle mass to my Quads, Hams, Glutes, Calfs, Hip Flexors etc with the Pre-Post workout meal I just mentioned above OR Would I see better results in terms of adding mass by adding more carbs to the Pre-Post ride meal which I mentioned above???...
Take into account the article also mentions Protein is also an important nutrient for endurance athletes. Riders derive 10-15% of their energy from protein, and it is also essential for tissue repair and immune system health. Since tissues are the main storage form of protein, riders have to make sure they ingest enough to prevent the body from breaking down muscle or connective tissue for energy, cellular repair, or the immune system.
Hope I can get some answers, Cheers...
Croak
10-13-03, 10:29 AM
Will you be more likely to bonk? Yes.
Will you build more muscle? No.
The protein is not going to be able to sustain the energy requirements from the ride. That is where the high levels of carbs (CHO) come in. With a slow release CHO source, your muscles are constantly using their glycogen stores, which are replenished from sugars in the blood, which in turn get replinished from food. You need this chain while undertaking such arduous endurance applications.
The best approach if you want to maintain or grow while cycling is to utilise a slow digesting protein (casein, micellar if possible) with a slow digesting CHO (oats are great) pre-ride. During, keep sugars up with a quality sports drink or gel. Post, drink a shake consisting of hydrolysed whey protein isolate (~50g), dextrose(~50g), maltodextrin(~50g), BCAA's if possible and some glutamine peptides (not l-glutamine, there is a big difference!)
Edit:
Also, remember the ratios of protein:carbs:fat isn't for every meal. Maximum carbs should be consumed around ride time of just after. Save fat for later on. Try not to mix large amounts of fat and carbs.
Bobsled
10-13-03, 01:32 PM
I bought some Soy Protein yesterday. Lower in fat than Whey. Haven't tried it tho.
late
10-13-03, 03:40 PM
Hi,
Mama Nature has been around for a while, and knows what she's doing. Get some milk protein here. http://www.proteinfactory.com/in_milkprotein.htm# It mixes well, it's cheap, makes a good shake, and provides an appropriate blend of fast and slow digesting proteins. If you want to jazz it up a bit, make soy protein 20-30% of the mix. They have all kinds of additives and flavorings, I just get the milk protein isolate. For muscle growth, what you want is a positive nitrogen balance. Oddly enough, whey isn't good for sustaining positive nitrogen balance; it's too fast. Also, it is way too easy to overemphasize protein in your diet. My breakfast is a fruit shake, and I need a little protein in it. After workouts, they say your snack should be mostly carb with a little protein.
Croak
10-13-03, 08:14 PM
Hi,
Mama Nature has been around for a while, and knows what she's doing. Get some milk protein here. http://www.proteinfactory.com/in_milkprotein.htm# It mixes well, it's cheap, makes a good shake, and provides an appropriate blend of fast and slow digesting proteins. If you want to jazz it up a bit, make soy protein 20-30% of the mix. They have all kinds of additives and flavorings, I just get the milk protein isolate. For muscle growth, what you want is a positive nitrogen balance. Oddly enough, whey isn't good for sustaining positive nitrogen balance; it's too fast. Also, it is way too easy to overemphasize protein in your diet. My breakfast is a fruit shake, and I need a little protein in it. After workouts, they say your snack should be mostly carb with a little protein.
It depends completely on your goals.
Whey protein is not 'too fast'. Every situation requires a different solution. Post exercise, whey protein is ideal to flush the body with nutrients which will speed recovery. The idea is to spike insulin while having high levels of amino acids in the blood, this will allow the body to supercompensate.
Casein and milk protein isolates (which is just a combination of three caseins and whey) are fantastic for meals where your protein is lacking.
Just remember that when it is reccomended that you get only 15% of your daily calories from protein, you are still meant to be getting 1g per lbs of lean body mass (not body mass, subtract your fat mass).
Steer away from soy protein unless you are female. It contains xenoestrogens which raise estrogenic activity in the body. This will slow recovery and may cause things like depression.
late
10-13-03, 10:03 PM
Hi,
I would like to see some documentation on the xenoestrogen. Sounds like bodybuilder mythology to me.
Croak
10-13-03, 11:58 PM
Hi,
I would like to see some documentation on the xenoestrogen. Sounds like bodybuilder mythology to me.
Weber KS (2001). Dietary soy-phytoestrogens decrease testosterone levels and prostate weight without altering LH, prostate 5alpha-reductase or testicular steroidogenic acute regulatory peptide levels in adult male Sprague-Dawley rats. J Endocrinol Sep; 170 (3): 591-9
Strauss L (1998). Genistein exerts estrogen-like effects in male mouse reproductive tract. Mol Cell Endocrinol Sep 25; 144 (1-2): 83-93
Lohrke B (2001). Activation of skeletal muscle protein breakdown following consumption of soybean protein in pigs. Br J Nutr 2001 Apr; 85 (4): 447-57
Nagata C (2000). Inverse association of soy product intake with serum androgen and estrogen concentrations in Japanese men. Nutr Cancer; 36 (1): 14-8
Irvine CHG (1998). Phytoestrogens in soy-based infant foods: concentrations, daily intake, and possible biological effects. Proc Soc Exp Biol Med1998 Mar; 217 (3): 247-53)
late
10-14-03, 04:10 AM
Hi,
yes I am aware of that. Here is a contrary opinion, I am not aware that this is a settled issue.
"Soy protein BAD, I don't think so.
By Alex Rogers, Proteinfactory.com
Recently, an article was written by a certain Net Magazine, claiming that soy protein was a "Bad" Protein to use if you were a bodybuilder looking to add lean muscle mass. The article concluded with the use of research studies, that soy proteins' phytoestorgens actually lowered testosterone production in animal studies. Hence lower testosterone levels, higher estrogen levels, no muscle gains.
But of course there are always two sides to the story, and I think I have a better case, jury listen up!!!
I would have to disagree, and nutritional experts agree, that soy protein is an excellent protein to use if you're a bodybuilder using the protein to gain muscle mass. Here are a bunch of reasons.
Hormonal Studies
1) A study found that soy protein isolate (daidzein) may have a gender specific normalizing effect on sex-hormone prduction. Male lab animals experienced greater testosterone and growth-hormone excretion as well as muscle growth" This contradicts the study that found that genestein decreased testosterone serum.
2) Another study found that soy may be actually antiestrogenic. . They may also act as antiestrogens by competing for the binding sites of estrogen receptors or the active site of the estrogen biosynthesizing and metabolizing enzymes, such as aromatase and estrogen-specific 17 beta-hydroxysteroid oxidoreductase (type 1).
3) Probably the best research study contracting the one used by the author of "The bad protein" is this.
The phytoestrogens are only found in raw soy products. Not soy protein isolates, which are used as protein supplements for bodybuilders.
"There are very little data on effects of phytoestrogens in males. Estrogenic effects in wildlife have been described but the evidence for the role of phytoestrogens is indirect and seen under conditions of excessive exposure."
And what is most interesting about this study is that it was conducted by one of the same researchers at the same univeristy as the study that found genistein lowered testoserone serum levels. This researcher concluded that even though he found genestein has estrogenic effects, it really cant be concluded because of the above statement in his other reasearch findings. Hence, he found soy to be estrogenic, but it really cant be "hard" evidence because there is not enough proof and it involves ridiculous conditions.
See what I mean by two sides to every story..
Positive Benefits of soy
1) The amino acid profile of soy is excellent. If you don't know by now the Glutamic Acid level is higher than whey. Why? Mainly because it is a plant protein and not dairy.
2) Soy has been proven to lower heart disease risks and cancer. Now there are about a million studies on this statement. I not going to quote any.
3) Soy protein actually improves kidney function.
4) When soy was combined with a carbohydrate in comparison with casein. Lower bodyfat gains were observed.
Character witnessess
1) Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale , probably one of the greatest sports nutritonist authors to ever live. (and trust me on this one) quoted in Muscle Media Magazine. "I use a combination of soy, casein, and whey protein that I make up myself from three different products, each one containing on of the protein isolates in quality form"
You can find the text at www.proteinfactory.com in the soy section
Croak
10-14-03, 06:14 AM
I agree with most of what you are saying.
The problem with your source is that they are retailers of a soy product, which adds a horrible bias.
Soy isolates definately do contain genistein to a great degree, although some is filtered.
Genistein is definately anti-estrogenic in the right circumstances. Some even use it as an anti-e at the end of steroid cycles to avoid using drugs that are easily detectable. The problem being, in a healthy male trying to promote their endocrine status to aid recovery, it is not. It is a weak estrogen with high affinity for the receptor. In a placing where endogenous estrogen is high, the genistein will compete for the receptor and lower the net estrogenic effect in the body. When there is a low estrogen environment (normal, healthy male), the genistein's low estrogenic properties are still higher than normal.
I don't see why you would want to use a soy protein? It is cheaper, granted but that is about all it has going for it.
Di Pasquale was certainly a revolutionary in his time. The studies on soy have only really started surfacing in the last 5 years. Di Pasquale was at his height in the late 80's with the anabolic diet. It's just a time frame thing.
late
10-14-03, 06:42 AM
Hi,
I use soy milk because it makes a good fruit shake. Most days I am just commuting; and I don't bother with that glycogen window stuff. But I have a couple of observations. When my wife first started having hot flashes, we tried all the natural products, soy extracts, evening primrose, black cohosh, everything on the shelf. Mostly they worked for a day or two, at most, and then became useless. Her body started ignoring them. I suspect that is equally true of the MUCH smaller dose you would find in a cup of soy milk. And speaking of adaptation, I would take a look at the subject of insulin resistance.
Croak
10-14-03, 08:55 AM
Hi,
I use soy milk because it makes a good fruit shake. Most days I am just commuting; and I don't bother with that glycogen window stuff. But I have a couple of observations. When my wife first started having hot flashes, we tried all the natural products, soy extracts, evening primrose, black cohosh, everything on the shelf. Mostly they worked for a day or two, at most, and then became useless. Her body started ignoring them. I suspect that is equally true of the MUCH smaller dose you would find in a cup of soy milk. And speaking of adaptation, I would take a look at the subject of insulin resistance.
You don't really adapt to phyto-estrogen activity. It is possible for receptors to downgrade, but that is only after long term hormone therapy (or something like steroids). I also don't think the soy would be strong enough to notice a change in a few days. Did you try flaxseed meal (freshly ground, not preground)? It's properties are far stronger than soy products.
Insulin resistance occurs when the body is producing copious amounts of insulin throughout the day. Like anything, insulin needs to be utilised for it's properties, it is a transport agent. Insulin resistance is another matter all together, associated with poor dietary habbits. Spiking insulin for an hour after exercise is not going to cause insulin resistance. In fact, the net insulin needed in this window to be effective will be much less than usually required as your insulin sensitivity rises after exercise.
If you utilise your endogenous insulin, you can effectively cut your recovery period in half. If you are just commuting, there is no need to fuss. On the days when you do go for a hard session, post-exercise nutrition, stretching and cryotherapy used in conjuction can speed recovery out of sight.
jacob
10-17-03, 11:20 PM
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Protein is also an important nutrient for endurance athletes. Riders derive 10-15% of their energy from protein, and it is also essential for tissue repair and immune system health. Since tissues are the main storage form of protein, riders have to make sure they ingest enough to prevent the body from breaking down muscle or connective tissue for energy, cellular repair, or the immune system.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't agree with the last sentence.
During physical training, sometimes one must sacrifice certain tissue if a certain outcome is to be achieved. For example, I saw a kickboxing movie where a guy kicked a tree with his shins repeatedly to become a better athlete. In another martial art, the right hand is plunged into iron filings and glass to toughen it. I guess, though, that I am assuming that these techniques would be considered in the above paragraph as trying to strengthen skin and bone, not muscle. Even so, there is no storage of bone and skin, except for preexisting bone and skin themselves. So how is there a storage system for muscle? All that is stored are the basic materials, like muscle cells, water, minerals, and etc.
Jacob
Vitamin X
10-18-03, 03:34 AM
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Protein is also an important nutrient for endurance athletes. Riders derive 10-15% of their energy from protein, and it is also essential for tissue repair and immune system health. Since tissues are the main storage form of protein, riders have to make sure they ingest enough to prevent the body from breaking down muscle or connective tissue for energy, cellular repair, or the immune system.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't agree with the last sentence.
During physical training, sometimes one must sacrifice certain tissue if a certain outcome is to be achieved. For example, I saw a kickboxing movie where a guy kicked a tree with his shins repeatedly to become a better athlete. In another martial art, the right hand is plunged into iron filings and glass to toughen it. I guess, though, that I am assuming that these techniques would be considered in the above paragraph as trying to strengthen skin and bone, not muscle. Even so, there is no storage of bone and skin, except for preexisting bone and skin themselves. So how is there a storage system for muscle? All that is stored are the basic materials, like muscle cells, water, minerals, and etc.
Jacob
I definately agree with what Croak has to say about Protein. From my own personal experience with Whey and Glutamine, I have proved that Whey Protein helps prevent muscular breakdown after training and that Glutamine helps in all connective tissue for energy, cellular repair and aids immune system. During physical training, sometimes one must sacrifice certain tissue if a certain outcome is to be achieved. Yeah this is true if you want to be a good 3 week tour rider. The top riders on the tour have to sacrifice almost all of there muscle mass, both lower and upper body. Most of them guys don't take anywhere near the supplements I do to help in the prevention of muscular breakdown. But hey, I ain't getting paid thousands to ride a bike down a road, so you won't be seeing me walking the streets looking like I need to get a decent meal down me. If a guy passes me on my 28lb 1980's Raleigh with his Lightspeed, good for him, I hope he enters next years tours and becomes a millionaire.
If I was to go down that road of losing all my muscle mass, even though I don't have much, damn I'd be a great rider. If I could have my life all over again, At the age of 13 I would start cycling, I would sacrifice all my muscle mass and the look of skinny supermodel knowing I would have a great chance of becoming a top pro rider and earning alot of money...
late
10-18-03, 03:04 PM
Testify, Brother!
I just did a post ride 'snack'. We did a ride called the Lighthouse Loop, afterwards we ate at a restaurant that's right at one of the lighthouses. I had a fishburger, some fried clams, and half a choc chip cookie. It may not be scientific, but it's definiely a good life.