Road Bike Racing - Vuelta

Laggard, I see your Vuelta thread was eliminated. I misposted that the ITT was today. I didn't know then that Nozal had beaten Igor. Sorry. Your observations about Nozal being the true team leader were correct.

The odd thing about the Vuelta is the inconsistency the winners tend to show in this race from year to year. Has anyone won this race 2 years in a row or even twice in the last ten years. I haven't looked at the records, but I'll bet the last rider to win it more than once was Indurain.

Originally posted by don d.
The odd thing about the Vuelta is the inconsistency the winners tend to show in this race from year to year.

I have thought so too, but a closer look shows that, with the exception of Aitor Gonzalez and Jan Ullrich, the recent winners have been on the podium at least twice:

Casero was second in 2000, before winning in 2001.
Roberto Heras has been in the top six (including three podiums: 3rd 1999, 1st 2000, 2nd 2002) every year since 1997.
Ullrich has not finished the Vuelta since winning 1999 (in 2000 he used as preparation for the Olympics and dropped out).
Abraham Olano was second in 1995, and won 1998.


Has anyone won this race 2 years in a row or even twice in the last ten years.

Tony Rominger won 1992, 1993 and 1994.
Alex Zülle won 1996 and 1997.


I haven't looked at the records, but I'll bet the last rider to win it more than once was Indurain.

Surprisingly, Indurain was never better than second in the Vuelta (1991).

/Csson

I was so damn proud of Heras for finishing 7th in the ITT. Riding like that he could win the TDF. When Lance decides not to do it any more that is.

Did you see that Lombardi is going to Fassa Bortolo? What a devestating combination that will be. The worlds best sprinter and one of the top lead out men around. Like Petacchi needs any more help.

Anyway, Nozal is the man of the moment. Just a flash in the pan?

In one way, it only makes sense that Lombardi would go to FB (provided Petacchi doesn't leave), but then you'd also expect Lomardi would want to go to a team where he was *the* sprinter, instead of the lead-out man.

There are two things about this race that have suprised me: The lack of any steep climbs in the tour route... and Nozal.

The field gave Nozal a minute in stage 4. I guess they made a boo-boo.

With the form that this guy has first shown, I would love to see him continue as a great grand tour rider through the years. I don't like it when a rider has a GREAT grand tour and then rides sub-par for the rest of their career.

*realizes he is thinking about the TDF '04 already * ... Simoni... Ullrich... Nozal... :D

Has anyone noticed that Nozal looks like he is 1/2 dead at
the end of a stage?
After the Pandera yesterday he had to be helped into the
team bus.
I think he is about to crack, anyone else care to forward
an opinion?

Heras looks too tenative to me, I think he should have put
the hammer down at least 1km earlier on the last climb, and
never should have allowed Sevilla and Valverde to bridge up.

Marty

I definately think that Heras is capable of putting a lot of time on Nozal. When Heras attacked yesterday, Nozal looked like he was about ready to fall off his bike. Perhaps ONCE should have stopped his water carrying duties a few stages earlier?

Tuesday will show who's going to win all.

If this were about 5 days earlier in the tour I'd say look out
for Valverde, kids gonna make a name for himself!
I think Heras can do it, I'm really thinking the uphill time
trial is where he is gonna shine (although he shone big time
in the 53km ITT).
I figure that USPS has to really keep the hammer down, and
not let Nozal recover. He's too new, doesn't have the experience
to be able to really pull it off.
Once again ONCE has been killing its riders controlling every
stage, pulling every break even where not needed.
Yup, Nozal should have been the protected rider since getting
out of the Pyrenees.
Marty

Originally posted by Laggard
I definately think that Heras is capable of putting a lot of time on Nozal. When Heras attacked yesterday, Nozal looked like he was about ready to fall off his bike. Perhaps ONCE should have stopped his water carrying duties a few stages earlier?

Tuesday will show who's going to win all.

Apparently George Hincapie doesn't think Roberto is going to win:

"There is still a chance that he'll win." - so he leaves the race? (http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/5015.0.html)

I see thatas a knock on USPS. Hincapie leaving makes it more obvious than it already glaringly was that the team exists for LA and the TdF only.

Would Hincapie had even thought of that in France?

Consider, Hincapie's getting up there in years, and *does* have his own cycling career. Riding a grand tour this close to the worlds is already impacting his chances, IMO.

The main place where he might provide assistance is in a team TT... I think those are over with. He can't really provide tempo for Heras in the mountains. Finally, it's not entirely his decision... I'm sure Bruyneel had input.

Originally posted by roadbuzz
Consider, Hincapie's getting up there in years, and *does* have his own cycling career. Riding a grand tour this close to the worlds is already impacting his chances, IMO.

The main place where he might provide assistance is in a team TT... I think those are over with. He can't really provide tempo for Heras in the mountains. Finally, it's not entirely his decision... I'm sure Bruyneel had input.

Exactly. George did more than his share of work and like you said, he's not really an assett to Heras in the climbs. Beltran is more than capable of pacing and helping Roberto.

And if Lance wasn't on Postal, George still wouldn't quit the TDF. I'm willing to bet that if Lance had done the Vuleta that George still would have gone home. The TDF is just so much bigger than the Vuelta that no one would voluntarily quit. Well, that is unless you're an italian sprinter.

I do think Heras has a chance because of how Nozal looks. He is still holding on well, but I think this last week may be harsh on him, as he does seem to be a bit burnt out by now. If he continues like this though, Heras probably won't put any time into him on the Seirra Nevada.

We will see how the mountain TT goes, though. Heras looked great on those long, flat TTs... so I would figure he will be even better in the last 'mountain' TT. Who knows how much Nozal will have left by stages 19 and 20, where he could lose a lot if he isn't ready.

Originally posted by roadbuzz
The main place where he might provide assistance is in a team TT... I think those are over with. He can't really provide tempo for Heras in the mountains. Finally, it's not entirely his decision... I'm sure Bruyneel had input.

Yes, but he could still be used (along with the team) to force tempo @ the front on the flats, and chase down breaks. You are probably right regarding Bryuneel, though. I'm not stating that it's a bad move, just that USPS has pretty much given up on Roberto's chance for the top podium finish this year.

Originally posted by Walter
I see thatas a knock on USPS. Hincapie leaving makes it more obvious than it already glaringly was that the team exists for LA and the TdF only.

Would Hincapie had even thought of that in France?

I don't think that USPS has kept this strategy (win le Tour over all other objectives) a secret. Have they? :confused:

Does anyone see Nozal challenging Lance (or Ullrich, Hamilton and Vino for that matter) in the 04 Tour?

As someone pointed out, some of these Vuelta riders are so inconsistent that Nozal may never win anything else again. Nozal is still really young and probably has some more developing to do before he's at a TDF winning level.

Lance's competition will be the usual suspects. Ullrich, Beloki, Hamilton, etc.

Think that a large amount of the inconsistancy shown in the Vuelta is due to the fact it is the third of three and many of the riders have either ridden in the previous two or have spent a long summer in competition. So it is pretty much of a crap-shoot who will end up on the podium. Look at Simoni's result in the TdF. For my part, I am surprised that the ONCE and USPS folks are doing so well after a tough TdF (at least for USPS).

And, who can blame GH. He has done a good job thus far with his help for Heras/Beltran. But neither seems to have the legs to do what is needed in the mountains. Too much TdF, perhaps?

The USPS team is strong. But it has one goal. And hopefully we see it fulfilled at least one more time.

Originally posted by lotek
Heras looks too tenative to me
Heras has been hard to figure, this year. He did little outstanding work in the TdF, so I was thinking he was pacing his efforts in preparation for the Vuelta. But instead, he TTs decently (unheard of for a climber) and climbs moderately well, but not like the guy who won on L'Angliru (sp?) last year.

Originally posted by roadbuzz
Heras has been hard to figure, this year. He did little outstanding work in the TdF, so I was thinking he was pacing his efforts in preparation for the Vuelta. But instead, he TTs decently (unheard of for a climber) and climbs moderately well, but not like the guy who won on L'Angliru (sp?) last year.

Heras was diagnosed with Bronchitis in the TDF.

It appears he has worked very hard on the TT; evidence his results in the Tour de Catalunya with a second inthe TT on the final TT. Perhaps the old theory that a pure climber loses alot in the climb by trying to be a good TT'r is evidenced in Heras?

With regards to the strategy of USPS in the Vuelta, I thought when Heras signed on that the hype was Heras for Lance in the TDF and Lance for Heras in the Vuelta. It really hasn't been completely like that. At least USPS shows up for the Vuelta, and I would think that the riders do their best to support Heras.

Originally posted by bac
I don't think that USPS has kept this strategy (win le Tour over all other objectives) a secret. Have they? :confused:

No it's not much of a secret and I'm "old school" enough to not be in complete accord with it as a fan. Obviously it's been a successful strategy but we see LA in a few tune-ups in the Spring, win in July and DNF in San Fran and that's his season. A very lucrative season to be sure but I feel a bit lacking. Yes, I realize the days of Eddy Merckx are gone and this is the age of specialists but I can still feel wistful for champions who ride all season.

IMO Heras deserves complete committment even if the only thing Hincapie can do is ride tempo before the climb starts and try to put Nozal under some pressure. Not to be,I guess and no doubt Bruyneel OKed it. It's not the end of the world for Heras and USPS has held together better than most teams in the Vuelta and that's to their credit.

I hope Hincapie does do well at the Worlds b/c there's not a huge record otherwise. 1 Classic win? Let's face it he'll be remembered as LA's lieutenant, not for his own record. A rainbow jersey would help change that and he probably deserves it though riding for LA has probably earned him more than most team leaders in the peloton and $ is important.

:beer:

Originally posted by Walter
No it's not much of a secret and I'm "old school" enough to not be in complete accord with it as a fan. Obviously it's been a successful strategy but we see LA in a few tune-ups in the Spring, win in July and DNF in San Fran and that's his season. A very lucrative season to be sure but I feel a bit lacking. Yes, I realize the days of Eddy Merckx are gone and this is the age of specialists but I can still feel wistful for champions who ride all season.


The thing with Lance is, he doesn't need to ride for a career. I think that ended in 1996. He rides because he wants to win the TDF. Its not like he is thinking "I need to support myself by racing all year." Its more like "I want to win one race, and specify in that one race: the TDF." He seems to be in complete control over the decisions of his career.

Heras may be a bit burnt from being sick in the TDF this year. It is hard for me to say that he is riding sub-par since he is in third, but I'm sure he would be in better form if he wasn't sick, or in the TDF. I know the others that he is racing against have done a grand tour as well, but even Simoni looked way off form in his second grand tour of the year. It sounds like a tough schedule, in my mind!

Anybody see Millar's ride, Wednesday? He just made it look so effortless... smooth as silk the whole ride, riding away from the rest of the breakaway on the climb. It wasn't until he sat up at the end that he showed any effort.

Originally posted by roadbuzz
Anybody see Millar's ride, Wednesday? He just made it look so effortless... smooth as silk the whole ride, riding away from the rest of the breakaway on the climb. It wasn't until he sat up at the end that he showed any effort.

I knew (or atleast hoped) that he had the win, when he went off the front. It seems like great TT riders become uncatchable when they get free on a lone break. That was a great ride by him... two great moves... the decision to bridge across to the front, and the power to make it there, and then attack and clear the front group.

That was one hell of a descent.

Does anyone see Nozal challenging Lance Not in a million years. :)

Heras took over a minute out of Nozal's lead today (stage 19). He attacked hard on the last climb and Nozal went into difficulty. Heras formed a group with an early breakaway that raced down the decent to the finish, a little over a minute ahead of Nozal's group.
Nozal still has a 2 minute lead, and he probably has the race. But I'm not too sure. Heras has looked great in the TT's, and his form seems to have gotten better in this last week, while Nozal's has declined (not suprising, considering what a grand tour rider Heras is). Nozal has started to look a bit weak in the mountains (although he has held on well), and this uphill TT may not be to his liking.
The stage isn't very long at all though, and I don't know if there will be any decent sized time gaps. We'll see! its going to be interesting :D

****. Why was there no spoiler warning?? I was trying so hard not to know what happened today. Oh well, guess it's my fault.

Originally posted by CarlJStoneham
Not in a million years. :)

They'll be too old then! :D

Originally posted by Laggard
****. Why was there no spoiler warning?? I was trying so hard not to know what happened today. Oh well, guess it's my fault.

Why did you check the thread about the Vuelta if you didn't want to know results? I think its really annoying to put results in the thread title... but come on... what do you think we would be talking about? Football?

Brent, it is customary on this site not to post results until those who work have had a chance to go home and watch the taped stage. Usually, we wait until 8-9pm or put "Spoiler" in big words. Kind of not fair to those us who can;t watch it live and don't want to go to a website, effectively ruining the suspence. Just don't do it again ;)

That is why I cant stand it when people put results in thread titles. Because if they do, it makes me think I have to avoid the whole forum. But this is a thread about the Vuelta... is there a certain time that we are allowed to talk about what happened? We arent allowed to talk about what happened until a day later or what? What is the point in going in a thread about a race that you dont want to know the results of?

Originally posted by brent_dube
Why did you check the thread about the Vuelta if you didn't want to know results? I think its really annoying to put results in the thread title... but come on... what do you think we would be talking about? Football?

I said that it was my fault. I was the idiot who opened the thread.

Anyway, if Heras doesn't win this thing, I really think he could have. If only he'd attacked earlier on some of the climbs.

There is no chance for Heras to win. Nozal is in great condition and tomorrows TT is just too short to loose 1min55seconds. Nozal is in very good condition.

Originally posted by Laggard
Anyway, if Heras doesn't win this thing, I really think he could have. If only he'd attacked earlier on some of the climbs.

I think he attacked early on many of the climbs. Every time he attacked early, he was pulled back.

It may have been that there were not enough climbs that were steep enough for him to stay away for long.

What is the point in going in a thread about a race that you dont want to know the results of? It's called "common courtesy". This thread is not here to post results, as you will see if you follow it back. lavuelta.com is there for that. This is to *discuss* the Vuelta (as 95% of the posts do). All you did was post results. Your post, minus the results, or with "SPOILER" at the top would have been fine. i.e.:


Nozal has started to look a bit weak in the mountains (although he has held on well), and this uphill TT may not be to his liking.

Now, when I go home to watch the Vuelta, I know Heras gained x amount of time on Nozal, etc. no suspense. Might as well not even watch it.

Though I understand your point, I don't see why it would have been hard to write "Spoiler" at the top of the post. Do you not see where that might be considered courteous? Your posts are the only ones w/ same-day results in this thread.

My point is this: some of us can't watch the Vuelta as it happens. If we NEED to know RIGHT NOW who won, we'll go to levuelta.com. Otherwise, we'd like to wait until we get home to watch the tape and see what happened "Live". Writing "SPOILER" at the top of the page lets us know to skip that post w/o keeping us from being able to discuss whether Nozal is a challenge from Armstrong until after we've watched today's stage.

I should clarify that I'm not really angry (a bit disappointed since I didn't get to watch the Vuelta yesterday and I was really looking forward to it today) but I kind of hate it when people complain that they shouldn't have to put "spoiler" up when they give results that other might not want to know at the time. It seems like it would the courteous thing to respect that until at least dinner time. But that's just me.

PS Brent_dude, this is also a long-standing beef of mine. I don't mean to take it all out on you :p Anyway, back to the discussion about the Vuelta, not about all this crap...

This thread is not here to post results I should say, the sole purpose of this thread is not for that (i.e. it's not labeled "Vuelta Results")

Every time he attacked early, he was pulled back But you don't think he waited too long on ?Stage 17? (the REAL steep one)?

Originally posted by Laggard
It may have been that there were not enough climbs that were steep enough for him to stay away for long.

That is probably why he wasnt able to win this thing, if he doesn't. I think his tactics were good.


Originally posted by CarlJStoneham
But you don't think he waited too long on ?Stage 17? (the REAL steep one)?

Stage 15? I think he tried to attack early on that one. I dont think he had the energy to pull away early in that climb anyway, if he tried. He was pretty worn out by the end of that climb.


Originally posted by CarlJStoneham
It's called "common courtesy". This thread is not here to post results, as you will see if you follow it back. lavuelta.com is there for that. This is to *discuss* the Vuelta (as 95% of the posts do). All you did was post results. Your post, minus the results, or with "SPOILER" at the top would have been fine. i.e.:


If I wanted to post results, I would have done this:

1º 69 SIMEONI, Filippo ITA DVE 3:51:18
2º 121 MÖLLER, Klaus DEN MIL m.t.
3º 64 MARTIN PERDIGUERO, Miguel ESP DVE a 16
4º 38 MORENI, Cristian ITA ALS a 16
5º 169 ZBERG, Beat SUI RAB a 16
6º 102 CARDENAS, Felix COL L2C a 16
7º 87 OSA, Unai ESP BAN a 16
8º 167 RASMUSSEN, Michael DEN RAB a 16
9º 98 VALVERDE, Alejandro ESP KEL a 16
10º 91 SEVILLA, Oscar ESP KEL a 16
11º 11 HERAS, Roberto ESP USP a 16
12º 147 PEREIRO, Oscar ESP PHO a 16
13º 85 MANCEBO, Francisco ESP BAN a 16
14º 128 JEKER, Fabian SUI MIL a 16
15º 186 LARA, Francisco José ESP TBI a 16
16º 48 PEREZ, Luis ESP COF a 16
17º 67 SCARPONI, Michele ITA DVE a 16
18º 125 DEL OLMO, Txema ESP MIL a 16
19º 86 OSA, Aitor ESP BAN a 16
20º 88 PIEPOLI, Leonardo ITA BAN a 16
21º 77 LAISEKA, Roberto ESP EUS a 16
22º 16 LANDIS, Floyd USA USP a 23
23º 99 ZABALLA, Constantino ESP KEL a 58
24º 53 JUFRE, José ESP CRF a 1:30
25º 184 GUIDI, Fabrizio ITA TBI a 1:30
26º 47 FOFONOV, Dmitri KAZ COF a 1:30
27º 59 REBOLLO, Jose Luis ESP CRF a 1:30
28º 208 WERNER, Christian GER TEL a 1:30
29º 29 VICIOSO, Angel ESP ONE a 1:30
30º 13 BELTRAN, Manuel ESP USP a 1:30
31º 26 NOZAL, Isidro ESP ONE a 1:30

I would have done that but I figured that would be pointless, because people could just go on other websites to find it, like you said. What I did was describe the stage and I discussed about the Vuelta.



Though I understand your point, I don't see why it would have been hard to write "Spoiler" at the top of the post. Do you not see where that might be considered courteous? Your posts are the only ones w/ same-day results in this thread.


I could have written "Spoiler" but I didn't think it was necessary. I figured that it was expected that, if I were to post today, I would be posting about today's stage.



My point is this: some of us can't watch the Vuelta as it happens. If we NEED to know RIGHT NOW who won, we'll go to levuelta.com. Otherwise, we'd like to wait until we get home to watch the tape and see what happened "Live".


I often end up doing the same thing. I watch a vcr record of the coverage. But when I didn't get to see the live results... I don't go on a forum and read a thread where people are discussing the race. I think it would be rude for me to expect other people to just halt on the discussion until I got a chance to watch it.



I should clarify that I'm not really angry (a bit disappointed since I didn't get to watch the Vuelta yesterday and I was really looking forward to it today) but I kind of hate it when people complain that they shouldn't have to put "spoiler" up when they give results that other might not want to know at the time. It seems like it would the courteous thing to respect that until at least dinner time. But that's just me.


I know how it feels. The same thing has happened to me. But come on, not everyone lives in the US, or has the same dinner time. For some people, the day is already over. I'll put a spoiler there next time, just to be nice, but I don't think I should have to.

Ohh, and, check this out, hehe, from cyclingnews.com:



Manolo Sáiz expelled from the race
ONCE-Eroski's team director Manolo Sáiz was expelled from the Vuelta after having a serious argument with the motorcycle rider of a TV cameraman in the middle of the Navacerrada climb. Sáiz became angry when he saw that the race leader Nozal was having a very bad time on the climb. The ONCE director stopped the car and started insulting and screaming at the motorcycle rider. Apparently, the rider was obstructing Sáiz's way when the director wanted to tell some of his men to help Isidro Nozal.

However the president of the race jury, Belgian Jean Michel Voets, ruled that Sáiz had not respected the commissaire's instructions during the stage. "We decided to expel Mr. Sáiz from the race until the competition is over," said Mr Voets in a short press conference. "Sáiz has badly offended the image of cycling and also the image of the Vuelta España."

I don't know if I would say he waited to long. These are all professional racers, and they are pros at suffering. Chances are, just because it didn't look like Roberto was dieing, he probaly was. I know watching it on tv it is easy to start sreaming attack! attack! (I do it myself). However, being a racer, I know that sometimes there are points in a race when you know this is where it has to happen, but your body very simply can not do it. So yes on tv it looks like Roberto was just waiting to launch his attacks, but I would be very confident saying that he did as much as his body would allow him to do.

-Matt-

I think we forget sometimes how hard it is to do two major tours in the span of three months.

I can't even imagine.

Originally posted by Laggard
I think we forget sometimes how hard it is to do two major tours in the span of three months.

I can't even imagine.
Shoot! I can't imagine doing even one!

I could have written "Spoiler" but I didn't think it was necessary But it was too hard to type 7 letters, huh? Now, you've typed 1,000+. In the future, it might be nice (call me crazy) to warn people who might not have seen the results yet. It's not too hard for ME to do. Guess I'm just a quick typist.

Sorry, your last post, with all the results pasted in, really chapped my @$$. Most people don't consider it a major problem to type seven letters. Guess you do.

PS how about this? Koffee moderated the forums during the TdF and deliberately moved anything that was considered a spoiler to a special thread (with SPOILER in the title) unless it was posted the day after BECAUSE of all the people who taped it. i don't know how many people thanked Koffee for this simple, but kind gesture. If a moderator does it out of consideration for the users of the group, why can't you? Talk about "I" and "Me"... :mad:

Originally posted by CarlJStoneham
But it was too hard to type 7 letters, huh? Now, you've typed 1,000+. In the future, it might be nice (call me crazy) to warn people who might not have seen the results yet. It's not too hard for ME to do. Guess I'm just a quick typist.


I said that I didn't think it was necessary. That means I didn't think that it would matter to anyone. It means I misjudged what reaction I would get from people. I already said that I would do that in the future, to be nice.



Sorry, your last post, with all the results pasted in, really chapped my @$$. Most people don't consider it a major problem to type seven letters. Guess you do.


I already said that I would do so in the future. I just think its silly if people complain about others not giving the 'spoiler' warning. Don't read the thread if you don't want to know what happened.



PS how about this? Koffee moderated the forums during the TdF and deliberately moved anything that was considered a spoiler to a special thread (with SPOILER in the title) unless it was posted the day after BECAUSE of all the people who taped it. i don't know how many people thanked Koffee for this simple, but kind gesture. If a moderator does it out of consideration for the users of the group, why can't you? Talk about "I" and "Me"... :mad:

There were multiple threads about the TDF. I figured I wouldn't need to create a whole new thread just for my one post.
That was nice of Koffee. I thought he was doing much more than he should have been expected to. I figured the responsibility should be put more into the forum users, and I was frusturated about that at the time, because I didn't think the moderators should have had to do all that work arranging threads.

... I wonder what Heras' form would be if he didn't ride the tour?

Here's an idea: STOP TALKING ABOUT THE F***ING SPOILER/RESULTS/OTHER CRAP!!!!!! I saw this thread's number of post had jumped up to 43 or whatever and, just finishing watching the vuelta (notice how I went into the vuelta thread AFTER watching it) thought I would check it out, see who was saying what. Instead I'm greeted by a dozen posts about who shouldn't have stated results and what not. NO MORE NON-VUELTA RACING IN THE VUELTA THREAD!!!
On that note, what's the whole deal with the mountain time trial? Surely the riders aren't on the TT bikes right? They should be on the lightest ride they can find shouldn't they? Saw something on cyclingnews that says the time trial tomorrow is almost identical in length and grade to today's final climb. So technically Heras could get another 1:30, but would need to go a little more than today. I think it will be a helluva mountain climb one way or another.

Originally posted by Dot
There is no chance for Heras to win. Nozal is in great condition and tomorrows TT is just too short to loose 1min55seconds. Nozal is in very good condition.

Sadly, I agree.

I said that I didn't think it was necessary. That means I didn't think that it would matter to anyone. It means I misjudged what reaction I would get from people. I already said that I would do that in the future, to be nice. Fair enough. Guess I missed that. My apologies.

Originally posted by Dot
There is no chance for Heras to win. Nozal is in great condition and tomorrows TT is just too short to loose 1min55seconds. Nozal is in very good condition.

HEE HEE:D