I think this is more or less what they have in most of developed Europe. Seveal third-world countries are going down this path as well - Brazil has 100%+ tax on cars, Singapore forces you to retire cars over 10yrs old, an Accord costs $70k...

I'm a fan of freedom of choice, and not a fan of attempting to legislate social morality.... but that's just me:rolleyes:

Cheers

And I assure you, pricing cars sky high doesn't work as well as you think it would. Most people aren't actually outpriced here, although it does cost a lot. This wonderful thing called financial management combined with payment by installments means that car ownership is within the financial reach of almost anyone who holds a decent, regular job.

Singapore has been trying for ages to price cars above the reach of the average person to reduce congestion on the roads. 130% import tax on cars, auctioning the right to car ownership (don't you love supply-side economics), 10% increase in road tax for every year after the tenth year up to 150% (this does not work. People just buy new cars in the 7th or 8th year. My dad just bought a Toyota to replace our six-year-old Kia) and now $5 toll charges a pop during peak hours, but the authorities are still struggling to get 80% of cars moving at 40km/h on highways during peak hours. On arterial roads, the goal is 25km/h during peak hours. That's how many cars are on the road!

Never mind that forcing car prices up beyond the reach of the lower-middle class would be a huge political no-no. I'll tell you the problem. It never occurred to me that commuting by bike was a viable option until I came to BF and saw the Commuting and LCF forums. If people - non-cyclists - cannot fathom the thought of commuting by bike, they're going to view motor transport as their only option, and they'll factor it into their expenses. You can try and outprice them, but in this country the #1 priority is housing and #2 is the car, and they'll just keep trying to find the money to keep the car going, no matter how much it costs.

Singapore has been trying for ages to price cars above the reach of the average person to reduce congestion on the roads. 130% import tax on cars, auctioning the right to car ownership (don't you love supply-side economics), 10% increase in road tax for every year after the tenth year up to 150% (this does not work. People just buy new cars in the 7th or 8th year. My dad just bought a Toyota to replace our six-year-old Kia) and now $5 toll charges a pop during peak hours, but the authorities are still struggling to get 80% of cars moving at 40km/h on highways during peak hours. On arterial roads, the goal is 25km/h during peak hours. That's how many cars are on the road!

What about not just a fee-based permit to buy, but an application for permission to own a car? You'd have to make a case to the Private Motor Transport Board (or whatever the committee were called) that you needed a car, and that alternative transportation modes were not adiquate for your situation.

http://www.cagle.com/news/GasPrices08/images/deering.gif

http://www.cagle.com/news/GasPrices08/images/lowe.gif

I, for one, would like to see this car-centric living impossibly expensive and as inconvenient as possible.

I like to see these policies implemented, it's not going to happen in North America, but we carfree people can only dream.

$20 per gallon for gasoline and diesel sounds like a good number.
However, there should be subsidies for the following:
- transportation for products (shippers)
- occupation requiring the use of automobile (contractors, landscapers, etc)
- large item deliveries

A 200% tax on every new automobile sold.

Excessive parking fees, or better yet, no parking spaces at all. I don't fancy seeing people's property parking on public road. Just think of how less land is required with there were no parking spaces.

What do you think?

I usually post on Commuting since I'm only car-light, not car-free... but I've got to pose a big question here:

What about handicapped people?

Excessive fees and taxes levied against personal automobiles and fuel would be a direct slam on the pocketbook of every mobility impaired person in the country. Is it justifiable to charge a 200% tax on a vehicle or $20/gallon gasoline when the driver in question doesn't have the option of self-powered or public transportation?
No parking spaces? Again, a direct slam against the increasing numbers of individuals with mobility impairments... a number that will continue to rise as the Boomers reach their golden years. Where's the justificaiton for denying public access for an entire section of the population?

My fiancee and I are already working with her employer and our City Council to remedy accessibility and parking problems based on outdated statistics and legislation. We don't need any more problems to deal with.

I usually post on Commuting since I'm only car-light, not car-free... but I've got to pose a big question here:

What about handicapped people?



Ok - so you are saying that walkable neighbourhoods are to the disadvantage of mobility/sight/hearing impaired people??? What is easier and safer for a person with these conditions to navigate: pedestrian areas with no stairs (elevators and ramps) - like a shopping mall, newer subway stations, airports, etc, or large arterial roads?

The whole point of increasing tariffs on personal motor vehicles is to encourage people to use the facilities that are nearby, and encourage the development of more and the same.

Bottom line: if you are mobility impaired or visually impaired cars are a deadly hazard, not a convenience the less they interact with you, the better off you are.

I usually post on Commuting since I'm only car-light, not car-free... but I've got to pose a big question here:

What about handicapped people?

The usual answer is that the fees and taxes on private automobiles can be directed towards improving public transportation systems.

However, as I said in a previous post, the last few years of his life my late father could not walk more than a few yards. He couldn't make it to the nearest bus stop. If it weren't for his car--driven by himself or by me--he would have been housebound.

Ok - so you are saying that walkable neighbourhoods are to the disadvantage of mobility/sight/hearing impaired people??? What is easier and safer for a person with these conditions to navigate: pedestrian areas with no stairs (elevators and ramps) - like a shopping mall, newer subway stations, airports, etc, or large arterial roads?

I should have been more specific: Mobility impaired. Sight and hearing impairment, while they do make daily travels very difficult, do not necessarily restrict the distance a person can travel under their own power. A walkable neighbourhood with no parking facilities near any businesses is an impossibility to someone with a severe mobility impairment. For instance, you mention shopping malls and airports. Imagine that you have to use a walker, and your crippling arthritis limits your ability to walk to a distance of about 100 yards before you need to rest. The store you want to shop at after work is in the dead center of the mall, (or your flight leaves from a terminal) at least 200 yards walking distance from the current nearest handicap parking access. Make this a daily concern: Will I be able to find parking close enough that I can go to the <insert any business>?

The whole point of increasing tariffs on personal motor vehicles is to encourage people to use the facilities that are nearby, and encourage the development of more and the same.

"Nearby" is a relative term, depending on your mobility. I consider my 15 mile (one way) commute to be a relatively short bike ride. My fiancee can't walk to the mailboxes in our apartment complex because they're 150 yards away up a slight hill.

Bottom line: if you are mobility impaired or visually impaired cars are a deadly hazard, not a convenience the less they interact with you, the better off you are.

If you live where public transit isn't an option based on either pickup or dropoff points relative to your home or businesses you wish to frequent, a car is a necessity for a mobility impaired individual who doesn't wish to be a permanent shut-in. While I agree that there is a greater degree of danger in pedestrian trafficked areas which allow vehicular traffic (like a street through the center of a "walking mall"), I disagree with your ideas of removing all personal vehicular access from such areas because it is an unreasonable change which would limit accessibility for a large part of the population.

Your main point that it's hard to be carfree in rural areas is true enough. Although millions of farmers did it in the 1800s, I don't imagine it was an easy or happy life for many of them. But where have you ever heard anybody say that it should be against the law for rural people to drive cars? Unfortunately, if (when) gas gets to be very expensive, rural people will suffer a lot if no alternative is found. That's why we'll start looking now, if we're smart.

Are you honestly suggesting that we go back to horses? I understand that with feed and veterenary bills, horses are very expensive, not to mention quite labor-intensive.

When cars first became common they were hailed as being cleaner than horses--no manure to shovel.

If you live where public transit isn't an option based on either pickup or dropoff points relative to your home or businesses you wish to frequent, a car is a necessity for a mobility impaired individual who doesn't wish to be a permanent shut-in. While I agree that there is a greater degree of danger in pedestrian trafficked areas which allow vehicular traffic (like a street through the center of a "walking mall"), I disagree with your ideas of removing all personal vehicular access from such areas because it is an unreasonable change which would limit accessibility for a large part of the population.

Precisely. Now, if things get so bad that a car becomes an expensive luxury, perhaps we will have more permanent shut-ins.

Precisely. Now, if things get so bad that a car becomes an expensive luxury, perhaps we will have more permanent shut-ins.

Which brings up a new question: With a (hypothetical) increasing population of shut-ins due to lack of accommodations, will companies which provide necessary services such as groceries and medical care be afforded automotive subsidies for home delivery to customers who previously obtained these things on their own?

Which brings up a new question: With a (hypothetical) increasing population of shut-ins due to lack of accommodations, will companies which provide necessary services such as groceries and medical care be afforded automotive subsidies for home delivery to customers who previously obtained these things on their own?

Good question. Of coruse some of these goods/services could be delivered by bicycle.

Which brings up a new question: With a (hypothetical) increasing population of shut-ins due to lack of accommodations, will companies which provide necessary services such as groceries and medical care be afforded automotive subsidies for home delivery to customers who previously obtained these things on their own?

Hopefully some things will revert to the way they were around the late 1920's. FWIW I grew up in a neighborhood that was built between 1920 and 1950. We had a neighborhood grocery and drug store that both delivered, by both bicycle and car. In fact I can remember the drug store using a 3 wheeled enclosed Cushman scooter to deliver in the surrounding area. Those are long gone now. It will take a consumer attitude shift for anything to really happen. People will have to get over the Walmart mass marketing mentality and learn the true value of things. I have actually done cost comparisons between shopping at my local (1.5 miles) grocery store and the nearest Super Center. Yes the local costs a bit more...but I more than make up for it in time saved, gas saved, and hassle.


Aaron:)

I should have been more specific: Mobility impaired. Sight and hearing impairment, while they do make daily travels very difficult, do not necessarily restrict the distance a person can travel under their own power. A walkable neighbourhood with no parking facilities near any businesses is an impossibility to someone with a severe mobility impairment. For instance, you mention shopping malls and airports. Imagine that you have to use a walker, and your crippling arthritis limits your ability to walk to a distance of about 100 yards before you need to rest. The store you want to shop at after work is in the dead center of the mall, (or your flight leaves from a terminal) at least 200 yards walking distance from the current nearest handicap parking access. Make this a daily concern: Will I be able to find parking close enough that I can go to the <insert any business>?



"Nearby" is a relative term, depending on your mobility. I consider my 15 mile (one way) commute to be a relatively short bike ride. My fiancee can't walk to the mailboxes in our apartment complex because they're 150 yards away up a slight hill.



If you live where public transit isn't an option based on either pickup or dropoff points relative to your home or businesses you wish to frequent, a car is a necessity for a mobility impaired individual who doesn't wish to be a permanent shut-in. While I agree that there is a greater degree of danger in pedestrian trafficked areas which allow vehicular traffic (like a street through the center of a "walking mall"), I disagree with your ideas of removing all personal vehicular access from such areas because it is an unreasonable change which would limit accessibility for a large part of the population.

Dude, you don't get it - I live in a house with a yard, and I have a supermarket, dentist, doctors office, greengrocer, restauraunts, pubs, and a medical lab less than 200 yards from my front door, I don't need a handicapped parking spot to get to any of these places, and any of them would be a very reasonable trip for a blind person or someone in a wheelchair or scooter.

If you widen the radius to 1000 yards you've got pretty much anything you like - add in a big park, high school, elementary school, library, both indoor and outdoor pools and two more supermarkets.

If you are mobility impaired, or have some other impairment, it is better to live in a walkable neighbourhood where you don't need to cross high-speed car corridors.

If you don't need to drive, you don't need to park...

Dude, you don't get it - I live in a house with a yard, and I have a supermarket, dentist, doctors office, greengrocer, restauraunts, pubs, and a medical lab less than 200 yards from my front door, I don't need a handicapped parking spot to get to any of these places, and any of them would be a very reasonable trip for a blind person or someone in a wheelchair or scooter.

If you widen the radius to 1000 yards you've got pretty much anything you like - add in a big park, high school, elementary school, library, both indoor and outdoor pools and two more supermarkets.

If you are mobility impaired, or have some other impairment, it is better to live in a walkable neighbourhood where you don't need to cross high-speed car corridors.

If you don't need to drive, you don't need to park...

Problem is a lot of areas don't have these types of neighborhoods, they have been destroyed in the name of progress. Yes they exist, and they even attempt to build new ones, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Aaron:)

Dude, you don't get it - I live in a house with a yard, and I have a supermarket, dentist, doctors office, greengrocer, restauraunts, pubs, and a medical lab less than 200 yards from my front door, I don't need a handicapped parking spot to get to any of these places, and any of them would be a very reasonable trip for a blind person or someone in a wheelchair or scooter.

If you widen the radius to 1000 yards you've got pretty much anything you like - add in a big park, high school, elementary school, library, both indoor and outdoor pools and two more supermarkets.

Lucky you.

And 1000 or even 200 yards is too far for some people, such as my late father the last few years before he died.

Lucky you.

And 1000 or even 200 yards is too far for some people, such as my late father the last few years before he died.

I don't get it - he DROVE 200 yards??? No one does this, not if they have a motorized wheelchair.

Fact is for a distance of 200 yards a motorized wheelchair is way easier for a person with limited mobility to use than a car is - not to mention a blind person.

second thing, while you are right that few people live in such an area, the point is - DONT LIVE SOMEWHERE WHERE YOU HAVE TO GO 1000's of yards to get to a supermarket/doctor/library/pharmacy/school/whatever if you don't want to. Most of the readers of this forum live in democracies where you do not need papers to live in a particular neighbourhood - fight the bolshevik hordes and insist on the free market in choosing where you live. Many people have died for this right -exercise it...

I'm not telling you where to live, I'm asserting that you have the choice - if you want something, go for it. Don't you tell me that I don't have the choice, and don't tell anyone else that they can't live within a 3 minute walk from any service they want - if you do, you are not being truthful

Another thing,

I'm not lucky, I just chose to live somewhere where I was happy. I think everyone in a democracy should have a fighting chance to do so. I would argue if you don't have access to a lifestyle that suits you, you should move to some place that values 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'.

Precisely. Now, if things get so bad that a car becomes an expensive luxury, perhaps we will have more permanent shut-ins.

wouldn't it be fairly easy to set up van pools, at a relatively low cost? Even now, such services are offered in most cities. There could even be a stipend for that; just fund it through an extra couple of cents for gas, or a few extra dollars for car registration.

I don't get it - he DROVE 200 yards??? No one does this, not if they have a motorized wheelchair.

Fact is for a distance of 200 yards a motorized wheelchair is way easier for a person with limited mobility to use than a car is - not to mention a blind person.
I'm glad you can state that as a definite for certain fact, without having seen everyone's situation. 200 - 1000 yards is an attrocious trip to make in a wheelchair (motorized or not) when it's pouring rain. There's no way it's going to happen after a heavy snow and the sidewalks haven't been cleaned.

second thing, while you are right that few people live in such an area, the point is - DONT LIVE SOMEWHERE WHERE YOU HAVE TO GO 1000's of yards to get to a supermarket/doctor/library/pharmacy/school/whatever if you don't want to. Most of the readers of this forum live in democracies where you do not need papers to live in a particular neighbourhood - fight the bolshevik hordes and insist on the free market in choosing where you live. Many people have died for this right -exercise it...
Not everyone can find accessible and affordable housing that fits their living needs AND is within 1/8 mile of every service they could possibly need, including their place of employment. (Remember, not all mobility impaired individuals are retiree octogenarians.)

Not everyone can find accessible and affordable housing that fits their living needs AND is within 1/8 mile of every service they could possibly need, including their place of employment. (Remember, not all mobility impaired individuals are retiree octogenarians.)

Bingo! From what I have found in my part of the country the housing that is available in the "walkable" communities, in many cases that is a stretch, are usually the upscale planned developments that are out of financial reach of a large portion of the population.

Aaron:)

I don't get it - he DROVE 200 yards??? No one does this, not if they have a motorized wheelchair.

No. But if he had to walk that far from his parking space to the store, he couldn't do it. If there were no parking space close enough I'd drop him at the door, park, and come join him.

Because he could walk--just not very far--insurance wouldn't pay for a motorized wheelchair, and he couldn't (or wouldn't) afford one OOP.

No. But if he had to walk that far from his parking space to the store, he couldn't do it. If there were no parking space close enough I'd drop him at the door, park, and come join him.

Because he could walk--just not very far--insurance wouldn't pay for a motorized wheelchair, and he couldn't (or wouldn't) afford one OOP.

And there's the real racket. They'll pay for the bare minimum, and that's it... whether it's practical or not, that's another question.

I don't get it - he DROVE 200 yards??? No one does this, not if they have a motorized wheelchair.


The comment criticizing me for using the definite phrase 'no one does this' was correct: my knowledge is limited, there may be some people who drive from their driveway half a block to park directly at the front door of some business that miraculously happens to have a free parking space in front of it...

In my experience, people who drive have way more walking to do from their car to the front door of whatever place they are looking to go to than I do - the drivers can have their long romantic walks through parking lots and across busy streets if they want them.

Don't accept the word of people who tell you you cannot live in a walkable neighbourhood. They are wrong.

Vote with your money and refuse to accept neighbourhoods that are inconvenient,expensive and time consuming - this is the advantage of living in a free society - you don't need the approval of the central committee to move to a place that you want.

By no means do I want to minimise the difficulties/inconveniences/humiliations that our society imposes on those with disabilities - I'm just saying that surrounding every service by thousands of square feet of busy roads and parking spots makes their lives more difficult, not less.

The comment criticizing me for using the definite phrase 'no one does this' was correct: my knowledge is limited, there may be some people who drive from their driveway half a block to park directly at the front door of some business that miraculously happens to have a free parking space in front of it...

In my experience, people who drive have way more walking to do from their car to the front door of whatever place they are looking to go to than I do - the drivers can have their long romantic walks through parking lots and across busy streets if they want them.

Don't accept the word of people who tell you you cannot live in a walkable neighbourhood. They are wrong.

Vote with your money and refuse to accept neighbourhoods that are inconvenient,expensive and time consuming - this is the advantage of living in a free society - you don't need the approval of the central committee to move to a place that you want.

By no means do I want to minimise the difficulties/inconveniences/humiliations that our society imposes on those with disabilities - I'm just saying that surrounding every service by thousands of square feet of busy roads and parking spots makes their lives more difficult, not less.


And where are we supposed to live in the meantime? Not everyone has that luxury of waiting. I have a couple of bad habits, one is eating on a regular basis the other is having some form of substantial shelter that I can return to at the end of my work day. People who live on the lower end of the pay spectrum DON'T HAVE A LOT OF OPTIONS!!! They quite often have to take what they can get where they can get it.

Eventually we might get more walkable neighborhoods...but as the middle class is getting squeezed out and the lower income class increases it may take even longer. Do you really think that developers have any interest in building affordable, walkable, neighborhoods for people that can only afford to purchase/rent a $100k house? I think not.

Aaron:)

If you have little money, how the heck are you paying for a car???

As far as I can tell, it's the old-school, walkable neighbourhoods that have much of the cheap rental accomodation - basement suites, bachelor apt.'s and so-on.

Honestly, though - you can just refuse to buy a house in a neighbourhood that you find unpleasant.

There's a townhouse development close to my place where they built fairly solid houses, but with a terrible interior design (very limited interior space/big garage taking up 90% of the ground floor, etc.). Because of this - the developer has sold only one or two units out of eight over two years.

People voted with their money - if they don't like the product, they don't buy it.

At the same time, thousands of condo units have been sold, including about hundred units on top of my closest subway station. Given that a significant fraction of condo owners are saving the $30k by not getting a parking spot, it seems that at least several thousand people have chosen to buy accomodation in walkable neighbourhoods. The units are out there, and they are in demand.

maybe in Toronto but not in the middle sized town USA. The only "walkable" condo's that I can find in any city within a reasonable radius of my office are all $200k usd and up. People will pay for cars because they don't have any other choice. Also what do you plan to do if your job suddenly packs up and is shipped off somewhere else and there is no work with in your "walkable" area? I have been in that situation! I lived car free/light for over 12 years, one day my job left for Mexico (ironically that plant has now left for China) I was unable to find any job that paid close to what I was making in the same town and was forced to take what I could find, and unfortunately it required driving.

Aaron:)

The part of town that I live in is affordable. One of the reasons it is cheap is that there is no place for a renter to park a car. I am mentally disabled but I can walk or ride my bike. Yet I was hit by a SUV while crossing the street with the walk lighttwo weeks ago Also two of my friends have been hit by cars this past winter. One was walking in the street as the sidewalks are plowed over with snow from the street. The other friend was also crossing with the light in the crosswalk and a UPS truck slid out of control on the ice and hit him and shattered his leg.

We all live in crime infested areas where people get robbed in broad daylight. In fact a friend of mine was hit in the head in a robbery and fell over,hit his head and died. This happened a year and a half ago just a hundred feet from the entrance to my apartment building building on a sunny morning as he was walking to the grocery store.

None of us can afford cars. Many people with cars avoid this area like the plauge for good reason. So even walking to the store or a bus stop can be dangerous. Yet on a disability check you live where you can afford to live.

Some mentally disabled people can drive safely. Some can not. Just like psysically disabled people. If you cannot afford a car it is a moot point.

If gas was made more costly a lot of the people in my area that do work need a car as the bus service is very limited for people that work nights and weekends. This would put them out of work and they would lose their house or apartment. I suppose they could turn to crime,selling drugs or living in the Mission. Losing a job can often mean the break up of the family as well.

I believe in lowering green house emissions. As well as more people bike riding or walking. Poor bus service,long winters,lousy drivers and crime are part of a older,somewhat walkable neighborhood though. Not all people can afford to have cars,even now. Why make it harder for them and their families?

Several people on this thread seem to have only a limited idea of how the world works outside of their comfortable little corner of it.

Several people on this thread seem to have only a limited idea of how the world works outside of their comfortable little corner of it.

I was going to reply to a couple of their posts, but your post seems to sum it up quite nicely. Please note that the following comments are certainly not directed at you.

Not every neighborhood or community is laid out to be convenient for non-motorists. That will not change overnight.

We don't always have the option of living close to work, especially those of us with specialized job skills. If there is no acceptable housing near the hospital, should a doctor choose a different line of work?

Not everyone that drives an SUV or even a car is worried about gas prices. There are plenty of people making enough money to shrug it off. The recent increases have cost me and my wife about an extra $6 each week in gas. Ho hum. But we've watched our weekly grocery bill steadily increase a lot more than that $6. Raise the cost of gas, and sure, I can use my car less. But what is the car-free person going to do - eat less?

To the OP. You would like to see cars and car lifestyle items priced out of everyones grasp huh? Well, here is what I would like. I would like to see you tortured to death. Your views do not mirror my own and as such I feel the need to impose my tyrannical willl over your day to day decisions. It's too bad we all can't get what we want or you'd be in a lot of pain right about now. I would also like to see food abolished because some people eat to much of it and become fat. Fat people are gross and clearly not fit for society. You are a huge moron.

To the OP. You would like to see cars and car lifestyle items priced out of everyones grasp huh? Well, here is what I would like. I would like to see you tortured to death. Your views do not mirror my own and as such I feel the need to impose my tyrannical willl over your day to day decisions. It's too bad we all can't get what we want or you'd be in a lot of pain right about now. I would also like to see food abolished because some people eat to much of it and become fat. Fat people are gross and clearly not fit for society. You are a huge moron.

Normally, I would say this post is not appropriate. But I suspect this is a bit of tongue in cheek sarcasm. And, you totally forgot about smokers. I think that if someone is caught throwing a cigarette from a car, they should be shot. Seriously.

Wow. Peace and love, people.

The consequences of building societies utterly dependent on finite and polluting resources will catch up with the western world regardless of what bickering takes place on Bike Forums. It's beginning to do so already. As I said a long time ago in this thread, artificially inflating prices is unnecessary - the consequences will be the same either way. Although I do hope that more people will abandon their myopic view of economics and start advocating solutions which will be beneficial in the long-term.

Normally, I would say this post is not appropriate. But I suspect this is a bit of tongue in cheek sarcasm. And, you totally forgot about smokers. I think that if someone is caught throwing a cigarette from a car, they should be shot. Seriously.

If not shot at least pay for the damage they do when a wild fire starts...maybe we should sue the tobacco companies for environmental damage and property damage caused by careless smokers:p then they could pass it on to the smokes in increased prices and surcharges;)

Aaron:)

If not shot at least pay for the damage they do when a wild fire starts...maybe we should sue the tobacco companies for environmental damage and property damage caused by careless smokers:p then they could pass it on to the smokes in increased prices and surcharges;)

Aaron:)

No, shot. Nothing less. As I left the grocery store today, a lady tossed her butt in the parking lot before climbing into her (entry level) Jaguar S-Type. Apparently, the whole entire world isn't as important as the inside of her car. A shot to the head, tow it, drain the fluids, crush it. Seems reasonable to me.

I'd love to see fewer cars, but if gas were to go to $20 tomorrow the entire economy would crash.

I consider the root of the problem that our government has based our economy on the housing market to a large extent. We have done everything we can to encourage home ownership, then designed/zoned cities such that people are living further and further away from a city center.

If gas prices continue to rise you eventually reach a tipping point when people start trying to sell their suburban homes. If this happens to quickly - as in a drastic price increase on gas - the value of homes starts to drop, new construction stops, jobs start to go away, people start to become unemployed in houses that they cannot sell for enough money to pay off their loans.

The fallout would make the subprime fiasco seem pleasant.

I disagree. When it's too expensive (or otherwise difficult) to drive long distances, businesses will move closer to where the people are, and there will be plenty of new construction. But instead of sprawl, it will be in-fill.

I watched this happen in southern CA over the last 20 years. What was once sprawl that required driving 10 miles to buy a toothbrush, is now neighborhoods with shopping and offices within a mile or two of just about anyone.

Old inner city neighborhood centers are coming back everywhere too.

Not every neighborhood or community is laid out to be convenient for non-motorists. That will not change overnight.

So we should just forget the whole thing? C'mon. We're not going to cure cancer overnight either, but we make progress in treating it every year.

So we should just forget the whole thing? C'mon. We're not going to cure cancer overnight either, but we make progress in treating it every year.

I haven't seen anyone saying to scrap the whole idea, put prohibitive pricing (if implemented immediately) would be an overnight change which current populations would not effectively adapt to. If there's a gradual shift in population vs. business centers as the price of fuel continues to rise, then it becomes a more manageable situation.

Since moving to Seattle I've always lived in a walking neighbourhood. Very few essential services were more than a mile away, and I could ride my bike to everything I needed. Even now, living further out from town than before, I don't consider the 5 mile ride to get to town as an excessive amount of riding for errands that I can't do at the two business parks within a mile and a half of my apartment. (Although, some medical services are up to a 10 mile ride due to my preference in doctors and who's in my insurance network.)
What really surprises me is the low amount of bicycle traffic to either of these plazas, considering all the accommodations for cyclists in my neighbourhood: Wide bike lanes, paved off-street paths, ample bicycle parking, etc.

Which brings up a new question: With a (hypothetical) increasing population of shut-ins due to lack of accommodations, will companies which provide necessary services such as groceries and medical care be afforded automotive subsidies for home delivery to customers who previously obtained these things on their own?

Subsidized or not, these services will crop up to fill the need.

The increasing population of potential shut-ins is not hypothetical, it's real. All we hear about are boomers approaching retirement! There's a huge demographic bulge that will be elderly in a few years. This is the target of the new mixed-use communities popping up all over the US, such as the Market Common here in Myrtle Beach. It's also where the resurgence in downtown living is coming from (20-30-somethings cannot afford $500k downtown condos, but empty nesters sure can). Also college towns, which attract a lot of retirees because of their compact, walkable nature, public transportation, and cultural amenities.

Several people on this thread seem to have only a limited idea of how the world works outside of their comfortable little corner of it.

Absolutely. Y'all need to get out more, and see how the rest of the world works! And it does work!

The increasing population of potential shut-ins is not hypothetical, it's real. All we hear about are boomers approaching retirement! There's a huge demographic bulge that will be elderly in a few years.

Being elderly or retired doesn't make someone a shut-in, though.
The area where I live has 2 large 55+ communities and a 3rd one is being built right now. They're not walking communities by any stretch, but they're certainly convenience located in relation to the shopping centers. It's no more than a couple miles for the furthest residents to get to the nearest necessities. What really surprises me, since one of these neighbourhoods is a golf community, is that there are no facilities for golf cart parking at the plaza directly across from the neighbourhood/course. Don't quite a few retirement/golf communities make cart provisions for residents?

I haven't followed the thread but here in DC some organizations are implementing small inconveniences. The Smithsonian Museums used to open parking garages to the public, now they suggest that the public use public transport instead. This year at the cherry blossom festival the park service closed off the parking lot nearest the tidal basin and made it a vendor picnic table area. The park service shunted car drivers to other parking lots and provided shuttle service. I'm pretty sure some car people thought to themselves: "We should've taken the subway." as they waited in the chilly air for the shuttle bus out on Hains point. They had bike valet parking too.

You can try and outprice them, but in this country the #1 priority is housing and #2 is the car, and they'll just keep trying to find the money to keep the car going, no matter how much it costs.

I've heard of people getting payday loans, selling their tv's, raman noodles for a week, - just to kepp the car running...so sad:o

Are you honestly suggesting that we go back to horses? I understand that with feed and veterenary bills, horses are very expensive, not to mention quite labor-intensive.

When cars first became common they were hailed as being cleaner than horses--no manure to shovel.

Zheeesh.:mad:

You're just being coy and silly. There is absolutely NOTHING in my post implying that I want, or think there will ever be, a return to horses. Try to keep it real, Elkhound.

Not everyone that drives an SUV or even a car is worried about gas prices. There are plenty of people making enough money to shrug it off. The recent increases have cost me and my wife about an extra $6 each week in gas. Ho hum. But we've watched our weekly grocery bill steadily increase a lot more than that $6. Raise the cost of gas, and sure, I can use my car less. But what is the car-free person going to do - eat less?
You believe that current increases in food prices are unrelated to rises in fuel prices? That's charmingly naive.

Gas prices WILL continue to rise. There isn't one economist left in the world who believes otherwise. This will hurt a lot of people very much. As pointed out in this thread, some who will be hurt the most include the handicapped, the elderly, and country dwellers. I add that others who will be disproportionately hurt are poor families and people who live in inner city areas that are underserved by supermarkets and public transit.

The only silver lining that I can see is that, as people are forced to buy less gas, additional resources will be available for retooling the infrastructure and expanding public transit. In the meantime, it will be a simple matter to provide tax credits or other subsidies to those who can't use public transit as it currently exists, enabling them to continue using private automobiles if they have to.

Of course, Republicans will oppose this because it benefits people with lower incomes, but maybe yhey can get over themselves when things get to a crisis stage.

You believe that current increases in food prices are unrelated to rises in fuel prices? That's charmingly naive.

It would be impolite of me to suggest that you have a reading comprehension issue.

I've heard of people getting payday loans, selling their tv's, raman noodles for a week, - just to kepp the car running...so sad:o

No sadder than the state of our education system, don't you think?

It would be impolite of me to suggest that you have a reading comprehension issue.

But cheeky impoliteness is the other half of your charm!

Actually, I reread your post and you didn't actually say that the costs of fuel and food were unrelated. Sorry!:o

on that note, the new baseball stadium has bike valet also.

on that note, the new baseball stadium has bike valet also.


sorry forgot the quote. This was in response to the blossom fest here in DC