But cheeky impoliteness is the other half of your charm!

Actually, I reread your post and you didn't actually say that the costs of fuel and food were unrelated. Sorry!:o

Yeah, I pretty much shrugged off the price of gas, since it's so much cheaper than what we were paying in Australia, and it's such a tiny portion of our budget. Then a close friend of mine that doesn't even own a car pointed out that higher fuel costs have affected her grocery bill in a very negative way. So my point was the raising the price of gasoline could have a substantial impact on non-motorists as well.

I don't see anyone suggesting that doubling food prices will solve America's obesity problem. I would like to see fast food priced less attractively, to make unprepared food an even better alternative. But I don't see that happening either.

No sadder than the state of our education system, don't you think?

Of course, they should be teaching money management at the age of 5 if that's what it takes. I tell the young kids all the time, save your gawdamn money! If I was 18 and had to do it all over agin, I would have put every dime into the bank for my first house instead of a car and stereo. You might not be able to drive, but at least you have a place to live

I would like to see fast food priced less attractively, to make unprepared food an even better alternative. But I don't see that happening either.

That will never happen. People's lives get busier, fast food chains market their products more aggressively. Even traditional meals are marketed now as being "ready in only two minutes!"

That will never happen. People's lives get busier, fast food chains market their products more aggressively. Even traditional meals are marketed now as being "ready in only two minutes!"

Last night I served sauteed mushrooms over steamed chicken breasts. Tomorrow is linguine with garlic shrimp. Even when I need to give in and eat fast food, the experience is worse than the food.

Last night I served sauteed mushrooms over steamed chicken breasts. Tomorrow is linguine with garlic shrimp. Even when I need to give in and eat fast food, the experience is worse than the food.

True, true. Last time I went, it took more than 10 minutes to get my food, and it tasted like crap. The tables are dirty, you have to clean them yourself. The rag they give you is dirty, and you need to go wash your hands in the "bathroom" which is a term I use loosely. Trying not to touch anything, you make it back to your table, eat, then feel like crap 20-30 mins later. Not a great experience myself. I prefer the small coffee shops anyways, ones that will make you a fresh sandwich with your choice of veggies & sliced deli meats.
I just see so many items in the frozen foods section at the grocer that are these instant varieties. I mean, they have full pasta meals that can be nuked in the microwave for 4 mins. UUGGGHHH.

Yeah, I pretty much shrugged off the price of gas, since it's so much cheaper than what we were paying in Australia, and it's such a tiny portion of our budget. Then a close friend of mine that doesn't even own a car pointed out that higher fuel costs have affected her grocery bill in a very negative way. So my point was the raising the price of gasoline could have a substantial impact on non-motorists as well.

I don't see anyone suggesting that doubling food prices will solve America's obesity problem. I would like to see fast food priced less attractively, to make unprepared food an even better alternative. But I don't see that happening either.

Actually, this does seem to be happening already. I just read an article that said the price of organic and local food is already starting to decrease in relation to commodity type foods. I know that I pay $5 for a two pound loaf of organic bread that's made from the baker's own wheat. That price hasn't changed in the last year, but the price of better quality WW bread in the grocery store is going up so fast that it'll soon be $5, if it isn't already. I pay $3.20 a gallon for organic locally produced milk, about the same as supermarket milk.

Wheat is bad, so that's not a worry. Oh crap! There goes my favorite summer beer. :(

Actually, this does seem to be happening already. I just read an article that said the price of organic and local food is already starting to decrease in relation to commodity type foods. I know that I pay $5 for a two pound loaf of organic bread that's made from the baker's own wheat. That price hasn't changed in the last year, but the price of better quality WW bread in the grocery store is going up so fast that it'll soon be $5, if it isn't already. I pay $3.20 a gallon for organic locally produced milk, about the same as supermarket milk.

When I switched to an organic diet my food bill went up initially but then went down significantly because I wasn't buying 'crap' junk food any more. In season veggies and fruit are normally within a few cents of the other stuff.

I bake my own organic bread - which took a while to find a recipe that actually made good bread for sandwiches that wasn't real heavy. And, I get my milk from a local creamery that sells not only organic but, cream line (non-homogenized) milk, half-n-half, cream, ice cream and butter.

The cost of any organic food is going to be artificially inflated because so much shipped food is actually subsidized, creating a false "cheaper" cost for say, wonderbread. Oddly enough I saw a blog today chastizing a wonderbread delivery truck for thousands of parking tickets illegally blocking a bike path here in NYC. The overall damage to how we get food is over-looked. Local doesn't always mean "organic" (even though it is) because the FDA has strict regulations on what can be labelled organic which ironically many small farms don't sell "organic... as stated by the FDA". But the trend towards fresher, less chemically challenged foods is something I do wish any candidate would speak up on... since how the government handles farms and how food is taxed etc. is something of grave concern. Then of course, there's the fresh water table but that's another story...

As for people learning to live closer together in more town-city set-ups is going to take a long time to establish because our country was built by frontiersman and that rather ancient ideology still persists... that's why someone buys a stupid SUV called a Ranchero. So they can pretend they punch cattle and be badass pulling up to their McMansion.

Of course all of this begins to sound like socialism and that makes many people freak out, run out and buy a steak and a gun, hehe.

I bake my own organic bread - which took a while to find a recipe that actually made good bread for sandwiches that wasn't real heavy. And, I get my milk from a local creamery that sells not only organic but, cream line (non-homogenized) milk, half-n-half, cream, ice cream and butter.

Can you PM me the recipe? :) All the recipes I tried bread turned out too umm "heavy".

What do you think?

I think you should try to avoid deep thinking, you'll pull a muscle.

I don't see anyone suggesting that doubling food prices will solve America's obesity problem. I would like to see fast food priced less attractively, to make unprepared food an even better alternative. But I don't see that happening either.

I'm definitely in agreement there.

I can go to the poorest store in town and spend $100 on food. I will come home with three or four bags of junk, loaded with sugar (I read a label on some juice that my roommate bought: 83g of sugar!), preservatives, additives, high-fructose corn syrup and food from companies that are known to use GMOs in their food. But, I will still have A LOT of food.

Or i can go to McDonalds/Burger King and get a full meal for $2. I could probably eat for a whole month on $100.

Or, I can go to the natural foods grocer, spend the exact same amount of money, buy only oats, rice, vegetables, fruits, soup mix and only have enough food to eat for maybe three or four days. For that same $100.



But no, I don't see it happening either.

Or we could let people make their own choices and suffer the consequences, good or bad.

But butting out is so unfashionable these days...

If you want to curb sprawl, ... remove the tax deduction on mortgage interest on notes that exceed 110% of the mean U.S. home price.....

so-take away people's mode of transportation, force them into the larger cities, and then make it harder to own their own place, so that they need to rent from the large commercial property owners.

And since infrastructure does not appear overnight, city overcrowding erodes quality of life, goods and services are too expensive, mass transit cannot handle the inflated demand-general cost of living has escalated, but it doesn't matter because people cannot afford anything, since property owners have been essentially granted a monopoly on lodging.

See? I can speak in hyperbole too.

And since infrastructure does not appear overnight, city overcrowding erodes quality of life, goods and services are too expensive, mass transit cannot handle the inflated demand-general cost of living has escalated, but it doesn't matter because people cannot afford anything, since property owners have been essentially granted a monopoly on lodging.


That happened in Vancouver, except there's no such thing as overcrowding. Goods and services are manageable. People didn't use mass transit, they walked. Quality of life is good as ever as families living in city centres don't commute long distance to get home, along with well designed open spaces and parks to accommodate healthy living.

Anti-trust laws should be used to curb monopoly of housing. Housing is affordable, it just depends on how much square footage you want.

I, for one, would like to see this car-centric living impossibly expensive and as inconvenient as possible.

I like to see these policies implemented, it's not going to happen in North America, but we carfree people can only dream.

$20 per gallon for gasoline and diesel sounds like a good number.
However, there should be subsidies for the following:
- transportation for products (shippers)
- occupation requiring the use of automobile (contractors, landscapers, etc)
- large item deliveries

A 200% tax on every new automobile sold.

Excessive parking fees, or better yet, no parking spaces at all. I don't fancy seeing people's property parking on public road. Just think of how less land is required with there were no parking spaces.

What do you think?


You're thinking is so F****** stupid thank God you are not in power! You want society to go backwards into the dark ages not forward.
$20 per gallon gas, what are you an idiot!? the cost of every thing is tied into oil! I don't know about you , but the dark ages would suck and this Punitive Liberal thinking is stupid, this we can't drive our SUV's and we can't live like we want, sorry pal that is not the life for me. This is the type of oppressive thinking that will ruin this country.
Lets look at the theme of this whole flawed concept here, I think the evil cars are ruining the earth, so let's punish car drivers. I swear some of this stuff is written by losers that can't afford much so their pissed off at the world, so let's ban cars. You people could qualify for disability as Liberalism is defiantly a mental illness.
OK mods Ban me from the Bike Forums if you must as Liberals must quickly silence anyone that is in opposition and not in lockstep with the Liberal agenda.

You're thinking is so F****** stupid thank God you are not in power! You want society to go backwards into the dark ages not forward.
$20 per gallon gas, what are you an idiot!? the cost of every thing is tied into oil! I don't know about you , but the dark ages would suck and this Punitive Liberal thinking is stupid, this we can't drive our SUV's and we can't live like we want, sorry pal that is not the life for me. This is the type of oppressive thinking that will ruin this country.
Lets look at the theme of this whole flawed concept here, I think the evil cars are ruining the earth, so let's punish car drivers. I swear some of this stuff is written by losers that can't afford much so their pissed off at the world, so let's ban cars. You people could qualify for disability as Liberalism is defiantly a mental illness.
OK mods Ban me from the Bike Forums if you must as Liberals must quickly silence anyone that is in opposition and not in lockstep with the Liberal agenda.

I COMPLETELY agree with you, Specialized. There is no ounce of sense in this man's thinking.
mrbubbles, what makes you think $20/ga for gas or 200% tax on car sales will help anything? It will do nothing but hurt the economy and make things worse in the long run, even for car-hating freaks such as yourself. Just like Specialized, I wouldn't get rid of my SUV. Both my Tahoe and Cadillac CTS are MUCH safer vehicles than any gas saving, treehugging puny little Yaris.
Your idiotic post sounds more like hatred towards people who can actually afford to own an automobile. Because you simply can't afford to own, drive, or upkeep an automobile, you lash out on all those who can. You had a hard life growing up as a kid; getting picked on and steadily building up hate because you watched the girl you wanted in school jump in the front seat of another guy's sports car while you rode your bike. What is wrong with you, seriously? Is it that hard to just enjoy your bike and ride along carelessly without wishing hard times on others? Really, get a life.

OK mods Ban me from the Bike Forums if you must as Liberals must quickly silence anyone that is in opposition and not in lockstep with the Liberal agenda.

I rarely ban people, let alone those that I agree with.

Trekker, I don't see the logic in your statement that a Tahoe or Cadillac is safer. Safer than what? And for whom?

You're thinking is so F****** stupid thank God you are not in power! You want society to go backwards into the dark ages not forward.
$20 per gallon gas, what are you an idiot!? the cost of every thing is tied into oil! I don't know about you , but the dark ages would suck and this Punitive Liberal thinking is stupid, this we can't drive our SUV's and we can't live like we want, sorry pal that is not the life for me. This is the type of oppressive thinking that will ruin this country.
Lets look at the theme of this whole flawed concept here, I think the evil cars are ruining the earth, so let's punish car drivers. I swear some of this stuff is written by losers that can't afford much so their pissed off at the world, so let's ban cars. You people could qualify for disability as Liberalism is defiantly a mental illness.
OK mods Ban me from the Bike Forums if you must as Liberals must quickly silence anyone that is in opposition and not in lockstep with the Liberal agenda.

I don't see how this has to do with anything liberal, as I vote Conservative and my political ideology is far right. This isn't about saving the environment, this is about making my life easier, and making everyone else's life easier. It's purely selfish reason to limiting the use of automobile, hell, pollute the rest of the world but not my backyard.


mrbubbles, what makes you think $20/ga for gas or 200% tax on car sales will help anything? It will do nothing but hurt the economy and make things worse in the long run, even for car-hating freaks such as yourself. Just like Specialized, I wouldn't get rid of my SUV. Both my Tahoe and Cadillac CTS are MUCH safer vehicles than any gas saving, treehugging puny little Yaris.

Very mature, instead of attacking me, why don't you come up with a solution when $20/ga actually becomes reality in a decade?

Your idiotic post sounds more like hatred towards people who can actually afford to own an automobile.

Did you get all that speculation from one post? Really?

Because you simply can't afford to own, drive, or upkeep an automobile, you lash out on all those who can.
On the contrary, I can afford to own, drive, and upkeep an automobile. There's a thing call priority, an automobile isn't one of them.

You had a hard life growing up as a kid; getting picked on and steadily building up hate because you watched the girl you wanted in school jump in the front seat of another guy's sports car while you rode your bike.

Pure speculation. I enjoyed my childhood and high school life, and I didn't ride a bike in high school. I walked because it was 2 blocks away, didn't make any sense to take my bike out. Not one person in my graduating class had a sports car. I did have some sense and logic that a girl who goes for a guy with the biggest toys isn't worth wasting your time for.

What is wrong with you, seriously? Is it that hard to just enjoy your bike and ride along carelessly without wishing hard times on others? Really, get a life.

Hard times on others? I didn't make the lifestyle choice of living as far as possible from everywhere else so that a car is a necessity. You imposed that on yourself.

Can you PM me the recipe? :) All the recipes I tried bread turned out too umm "heavy".

me2! The bread I make is great for toasting, and with things like olive oil and garlic, but too heavy for sandwiches. I experiment, but that is also a bit of a waste.

a recipe PM would be very much appreciated!

As for the organic prices, while high initially, my wife and I have noticed that the prices have held steady/trended down in relation to the other rising prices. Also, since we are trying to source locally more, we are getting a great supply of veg from the organic farm up the street through the purchase of a seasonal share. Pay once, get veg all season.

I have to look into a seasonal share here.

I have to look into a seasonal share here.

Share sales have really helped out the local farms, since it gives them the capital up front, so that they can do things proper. We did one a couple years ago, but it was managed horribly, and we opted out at the first opportunity. This one is 2 miles from home, and is run much better. Our neighbor usually picks ours up for us, or I bike up.

Very mature, instead of attacking me, why don't you come up with a solution when $20/ga actually becomes reality in a decade?
I am confident that, rather than go out of business because their vehicles are too expensive for the average Joe to use, the car manufacturers will come up with a workable solution.

Certain folks will doubtless see evil in this, but whatever.

I am confident that, rather than go out of business because their vehicles are too expensive for the average Joe to use, the car manufacturers will come up with a workable solution.

Certain folks will doubtless see evil in this, but whatever.

I too am confident that the auto industry will find a way to keep the engine going. It's only a matter of time before a viable alternative replaces crude oil as the mainstream energy source to power cars.

I am confident that, rather than go out of business because their vehicles are too expensive for the average Joe to use, the car manufacturers will come up with a workable solution.

Certain folks will doubtless see evil in this, but whatever.

I suspect any day we will hear an announcement that GM is buying out Trek and will offer a new line of vehicle in 2011. I suspect they will keep the new vehicle a secret, but only disclose that it will be extremely fuel efficient.

Sorry, we have a more fundamental problem to fix...

Anyone care to calculate how big a percentage of our national debt is actually to the FEDERAL RESERVE?

Not a part of the gov't, folks...