What 'Exactly" is VC?

[joejack951]

the way this basically plays out in city core traffic is that I'm a half block ahead in no time.

So how long does that keep you ahead for? If the next light is green, normal speed city traffic (that I'm used to) will have all caught up to you. You'll now be getting passed again by the same people who had to get by you in the first place for you to pass them. I'm sure they'll be getting happier and happier as they repass you every other block because you keep running the red lights.

I will generally not take the lane in it's entirety unless conditions are horrible (snow storms come to mind). The onus is that overtaking vehicles are the responsible parties.

That's quite a different attitude (referring to the responsibility part) from Robert Hurst who you seem to like to agree with a lot. Why else do you generally avoid taking lanes? Or is that it?

I'm not weaving all over but maintaining a straight line for the most part. To pass me from behind at speed is alot safer than having to share the curb lane from the get go. This way I have a say in the matter, if it's not a good time to pass I can with a slight movement close the door on them if I must.

Why couldn't you just not share the curb lane from the get go (which is a lot easier than trying to close the door on a driver at speed when you were previously sharing, like when they decide not to cooperate) and only begin to share the lane if you can't keep up with traffic? If you are moving faster than/as fast as traffic, there's no need to ever share a lane. I don't see why you seem to think it's required to share a lane.

I see further ahead then most drivers, I can see the parked cars, the cab waiting areas, all of which occupy the curb lane. To be in front is to be in a sweet spot.

Why do you care about all that when traffic is STOPPED all around you? Once it gets moving, then those things become more important. If you are in front, you still need to pay attention to that plus what's going on behind you (to some extent). If you in the middle of the pack, things aren't much different but you have the added benefit of not being so exposed to cross traffic.

When jamming heavy traffic in the DT core every block is different, think of it more like white water rafting...you may have a general line to like but many factors can change your line at any moment. Give yourself as many escape vectors as possible and try to always leave yourself an out b/c half the time the drivers don;t have a clue where they're going. Left turns from the right side and vice versa are not unusual . It's all good fun once you get used to it. As was stated above , these days many messenger look alikes are giving the "pros" a bad name. Most drivers barely notice the messengers as they are blurs in a mirror or side window. Grouper fish swimming with sharks.

I don't know when the discussion became messenger specific but maybe in your mind it always has been. What do you suggest for the average ride, such as the average rider who won't be a half block ahead in no time? Is the front still the sweet spot? Or is the added danger of attempting to move to the front all the time no worth the minor (in my opinion) benefit of being there, especially if it's really short lived?

One of my disclaimers when I ride with ppl is don;t follow me as there is barely room for one let alone more. My gaps can close as I'm riding through them. you'll rarely see several messengers riding the same line together.

Sounds like you bring a lot of trouble you have in traffic on yourself. That's fine if you are ok with the risks (not much I can do about even if I did care) but earlier you seemed to be describing your style as something for everyone. I hardly think that's the case.

[LittleBigMan]

The problem is that the old axiom "easier said than done" applies to VC, and that so much of our behavior in traffic is done thoughtlessly. That's why describing it in words sounds so foreign and complicated. But what we're doing is quite complicated, we're just not thinking about it, so we don't realize how complicated it is.

I've been paying attention to how much I read motorists lately, and it's much more than even I realized, and I'm sure I'm still not catching all of it. Yesterday I was merging left. I was already controlling the rightmost lane, and was signaling left and looking back to negotiate for the ROW in the next lane to the left. The car approaching slowed, I think, but I couldn't tell for sure. I waited until I was sure, and then moved in front of him, then into my left turn pocket. After I turned left and thought about it, I realized that I hesitated because, since it was dark, all I could see was the head lights of the car, it was harder for me to judge, subconsciously, whether he was actually slowing for me or not. The point is I never consciously think "okay, now he has slowed, so I can go". It's all subconscious. I signal, when it's clear, I go. If the situation happens to include a car in the other lane, then the assessment of whether he has slowed down to let me in, which is a prerequisite to moving left, of course, is all subconscious. I do it every day without thinking about it. Yet when I force myself to think about it, look at how many words it takes to describe it, and even then I bet it's still confusing (especially to Allister ;)). Yet, in practice, it's quite simple, though few cyclists know how to do it, or have the confidence to do it.

So I don't know how to communicate it in writing, and the simplicity of it, at the same time.

For another example, consider how "simple" it is to just ride a bike (that is, balancing a two-wheeler). Now, try to explain how to do it in words. We face a similar difficulty with every aspect of VC.
Serge, I feel ya.

You must know we sometimes disagree (and have the posts to prove it,) but when it comes to describing something seemingly simple, the result can become astonishingly complicated. This is something I learned in computer programming, and in writing documentation. No wonder so many programmers hate documentation. :D

Explaining something can be more difficult than doing it. Hands-on works best for me. ;)

[TRaffic Jammer]

So how long does that keep you ahead for? If the next light is green, normal speed city traffic (that I'm used to) will have all caught up to you. You'll now be getting passed again by the same people who had to get by you in the first place for you to pass them. I'm sure they'll be getting happier and happier as they repass you every other block because you keep running the red lights.

In good city traffic the rider will have caught up with the tail end of the traffic ahead, then they would do it to this grouping of traffic, thus virtually never passing or being passed by the same car twice.

That's quite a different attitude (referring to the responsibility part) from Robert Hurst who you seem to like to agree with a lot. Why else do you generally avoid taking lanes? Or is that it?

We two wheeled riders are seen as interlopers, as illustrated over and over by motorists, and by extension law enforcement's attitudes. Strength and power wins, and as long as there is the 'I'm bigger 'attitude behind the wheel, we'll always be in danger. I don't want to do a chicken/egg discussion as to how the attitudes were formed initially, I just ride the the system has grown. I get no hassles taking the lane when conditions are such that there is a high likelyhood of an accident that will impact a driver. (nasty storms and such...in Toronto I'll be grateful for this). Once conditions are better for driving, it's full speed ahead and get out of my way for all the metal beasties. I've often contended for years that if we had magical ACME 1 ton anvil hovering above us as we rode ready to fall on any car that got too close you'd see a remarkably differning attitude towards our cyclists, picking on the weak is much much easier afterall it seems

Why couldn't you just not share the curb lane from the get go (which is a lot easier than trying to close the door on a driver at speed when you were previously sharing, like when they decide not to cooperate) and only begin to share the lane if you can't keep up with traffic? If you are moving faster than/as fast as traffic, there's no need to ever share a lane. I don't see why you seem to think it's required to share a lane.

Being ahead is better than being beside, however not always possible. Being able to share is a key skill indeed, the sharability of the curb lans changes as one travels in the city. Ppl turning off and on, parking, exiting parked cars, racing for the open centre lane from the curb lane, cabs diving for fares et al, are why I DO NOT want to be beside a car in the core.... "I'm sorry I didn't see you" might be a legal excuse that works, but if you get hit from behind.. then you can so easily call their skill as a drive into play as the ONUS IS ON THE OVERTAKING VEHICLE, this seems to be the one tenant of driving all ppl on the roads agree with, incl. law enforement. If a car crashes me by squeezing me into parked cars, turning on me, or some such looniness..I'm beside him in his blind spot, legal limbo.. kill/maim and get away. My personal space gets weirded when a car gets to within less than 6 inches, if I can reach out and tap ya without stretching then you are too close. IF I have run up to him this closely then it's not really his fault, but I can;t expect him to move for me, so I make sure I am in harm's way for as little time as possible


Why do you care about all that when traffic is STOPPED all around you? Once it gets moving, then those things become more important. If you are in front, you still need to pay attention to that plus what's going on behind you (to some extent). If you in the middle of the pack, things aren't much different but you have the added benefit of not being so exposed to cross traffic.

They NEVER stop! Cars pull out from parking, exit cars, change lanes at lights, preturn, cross turn (I've had my worst accidents with cars turning across stopped oncoming, but failing to see me still being oncoming.. usually in the rain) Gridlock is the lack of forward momentum by not all momentum.

I don't know when the discussion became messenger specific but maybe in your mind it always has been. What do you suggest for the average ride, such as the average rider who won't be a half block ahead in no time? Is the front still the sweet spot? Or is the added danger of attempting to move to the front all the time no worth the minor (in my opinion) benefit of being there, especially if it's really short lived?

Around post 178, where "pro messengers" were differentiated from scofflaws. For the average rider, I'd recommend not being a gutter bunny, if you ride like you belong you'll be much less picked on.. BUT BUT BUT, you have to know when to hold 'em and when to fold'em as it were and this takes practice. Be adaptable and don;t ever expect to be treated like a car, EVER!! What would amount to a fender bender, could result in massive injuries or death for you. WE ARE NOT CARS!! In many instances in high volume situations in the city we are the fastest things around, faster than transit, faster than all but emergency vehicles

Sounds like you bring a lot of trouble you have in traffic on yourself. That's fine if you are ok with the risks (not much I can do about even if I did care) but earlier you seemed to be describing your style as something for everyone. I hardly think that's the case.

Oh my :lol: hardly, sorry to give you that impression. I hardly ever get honked or hassled considering the amount of time I'm riding in core traffic. Sure everyone gets the knob, or sometimes I'm the knob, but for the most part it's easy sailing. This way of riding I've become adapted to over twenty years ago. I ride as if I'm invisable plain and simple b/c that's all I ever heard after confronting motorists for their bad "sharing". So I stopped expecting to be considered, but refused to run from them. Guess what .. it worked. Now I wouldn't go riding this way in high speed arterials though. Like I said grouper fish with sharks.

[Bekologist]

(paraphrasing)...inexperience questioning messengers with decades of collective experience riding big city traffic

:roflmao:

joejack, like I said earlier in this thread, if you don't understand the benefits to bicyclists getting in front of traffic at intersections in urban riding, you don't understand traffic dynamics yet!

anyway,

it appears more and more that vc is staying out of the way of cars as much as possible, encouraging unsafe passing by curbhugging narrow lanes while politically styming the infrastructure proven to increase cyclist transportation share and safety in cities around the world. this vc political platform seems on the surface to be pro-bicyclist but is really about motorist conveinence.

[AlmostTrick]

While I love reading the inner city cycling accounts from those who are obviously experienced and good at it, the reality is it bears little resemblance to the suburban/semi rural conditions that some of us cycle in. Around here the average motor speeds on the slowest roads is around 40 mph, and it can be a mile or more between controlled intersections. No cyclist is going to be keeping up with, or going faster than, the cars. Under my conditions, there is no benefit to the rider by running a red, as there are usually never more than a few cars waiting at a light, and once they go they will never be in the way again.

Maybe I'll toss the bike on the train and head down to Chicago (downtown Elgin is pretty tame) and see if I don't get squashed! Actually, my bigger fear would be getting lost. :o

[genec]

While I love reading the inner city cycling accounts from those who are obviously experienced and good at it, the reality is it bears little resemblance to the suburban/semi rural conditions that some of us cycle in. Around here the average motor speeds on the slowest roads is around 40 mph, and it can be a mile or more between controlled intersections. No cyclist is going to be keeping up with, or going faster than, the cars. Under my conditions, there is no benefit to the rider by running a red, as there are usually never more than a few cars waiting at a light, and once they go they will never be in the way again.


Agreed... the bigger issues for me are the speed limits and traffic density. Around here it is not uncommon to find that 40MPH traffic or faster, with the near density of inner city traffic, and multiple lanes.

I know in places around Phoenix it is also pretty much white knuckle driving... fast speeds coupled with wide boulevards and cars racing about at 45+ if not 50MPH. Not exactly bike friendly.

This is not the kind of traffic one "takes the lane" in... and the perhaps the only way to make a left (as I saw a cyclist doing this morning) is waiting for the brunt of traffic to move on, then pounce on that left from the bike lane (as crazy as that might seem**). Where no bike lanes exist... well, good luck.

HH will jump in any second and tell us how he rides in 6 lane traffic with no BL and therefore I must be lame... of course few other cyclists do it... as the comfort level is zilch... only the bold and daring... which excludes the majority and thus makes cycling in such traffic an "elitist event."


**and yes, I too have done this... just last Saturday while running errands... I looked to make a left and there was no way to "merge," yet, when traffic stopped for the light (a long line of cars), I was able to snake between the first two cars and move into the left turn lane and make the turn with the traffic. Otherwise, I would have gone up to the corner and waited, and eventually pushed the walk button... and acted like a ped... as there were no other options (and the damn lights do not sense even my heavy steel bike, with racks... sigh.) Oh BTW, that was light traffic...

[iltb-2]

Maybe I'll toss the bike on the train and head down to Chicago (downtown Elgin is pretty tame) and see if I don't get squashed! Actually, my bigger fear would be getting lost. :o

Lots of biking choices in Chicago. If you get tired, go see the U 505 or the Art Institute.

[Script]

This topic is officially closed! :crash:

Should anyone insist on adding any more gas, your connection will implode, leaving you with a teeny black hole that will start absorbing whatever intelligence you may have.

On the other hand...Exactly What is Intelligence?

You don't need to remind me, Ed Holland or buzzman, that there's probably very little here.

[AlmostTrick]

Lots of biking choices in Chicago. If you get tired, go see the U 505 or the Art Institute.

I know. Part of me tells myself it should be fun, but most of me just wants to avoid "The Big City" as much as possible. Whenever I have to go there for something, I always breath a little easier once I'm out. Different strokes I guess.

Gene is right on about the speed differential. While I'm fully aware that the inner city has it's own dangers for cyclists, I can't help but be a little jealous of those riding in an environment that allows for easier speed matching.

Should anyone insist on adding any more gas, your connection will implode, leaving you with a teeny black hole that will start absorbing whatever intelligence you may have.

My connection implodes all the time... No fear here dear.

[TRaffic Jammer]

No way to put all riders' needs into one methodology and trying to sell it to the masses as one is foolish.
My suburban riding is indeed different from my city riding.
Sometimes I'm grateful for a red out of the city. :)

[Helmet Head]

Crashes like the D.C. one described in this thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=384342) up in A&S illustrates why I think we all should be advocating vehicular cycling.

This cyclist is typical. He thinks riding on the right side of the lane is "doing everything he could have been doing" to avoid a crash. I can't blame him, because that's the current zeitgeist out there. And that's what we should be changing. If we're ever successful, then maybe we can get rid of the term "vehicular cycling" because that will have become the default. But until then, I think we need it to convey that we're talking about something substantially different from the way most cyclists currently ride much of the time.

[TRaffic Jammer]

..... but was hit anyway by a driver who decided not to look before pulling out or signal his intentions.

Other than hardly moving or having spidey sense and carving right/or last instant breaking around the back of him I can't see much he could have done. If dude is determined to pop out of a parking spot, there isn't a heck of alot you can do. I'm not sure of too many cycling methodologies that could have addressed that one.

[genec]

..... but was hit anyway by a driver who decided not to look before pulling out or signal his intentions.

Other than hardly moving or having spidey sense and carving right/or last instant breaking around the back of him I can't see much he could have done. If dude is determined to pop out of a parking spot, there isn't a heck of alot you can do. I'm not sure of too many cycling methodologies that could have addressed that one.

HH will come back and say "move left." Guaranteed.

[Helmet Head]

..... but was hit anyway by a driver who decided not to look before pulling out or signal his intentions.

Other than hardly moving or having spidey sense and carving right/or last instant breaking around the back of him I can't see much he could have done. If dude is determined to pop out of a parking spot, there isn't a heck of alot you can do. I'm not sure of too many cycling methodologies that could have addressed that one.

We do not know that to be the case. Clearly he did not look well enough to notice a cyclist coming in the right side of the right lane, but that does not mean he "decided not to look before pulling out".

Anyway, my full response is in that thread. And, yes, Gene, of course I recommend riding in a more conspicuous lane position - further left - especially when faster same direction traffic is not present. It's to reduce one's chances of a broken clavicle.

[TRaffic Jammer]

from the author that you quoted in that thread:

"My point - everyone please be careful. I think I was doing everything I could have done to not get hit, but was hit anyway by a driver who decided not to look before pulling out or signal his intentions."

I'll trust the OP on this as the culprit waited, thanks there HH. I read that you even doubted the OP's report of the incident.

HH's doing... " It's certainly possible that he would have pulled out even if there had been a motorcyclist or even a bus passing you at the time, and thus crashed with him too, but what seems to me much more likely is that he did look, but only enough to make sure the lane was clear, and did not pay attention to the "right side of the right lane", because he probably did not expect to find traffic there. Sure, in retrospect, duh, that's where most bicyclists ride, but bicycling is relatively rare, and if he was in a hurry, he could have easily just quickly checked the traffic lane, noticed that it was clear, and gone for it."

Dude, that makes it not looking, a quick check of one of two lanes and not making sure completely. You don't get half points for one lane looks. Careless, or failure to make sure it was clear to proceed. Buddy is busted up and you give him that?

[Helmet Head]

from the author that you quoted in that thread:

"My point - everyone please be careful. I think I was doing everything I could have done to not get hit, but was hit anyway by a driver who decided not to look before pulling out or signal his intentions."

I'll trust the OP on this as the culprit waited, thanks there HH. I read that you even doubted the OP's report of the incident.

HH's doing... " It's certainly possible that he would have pulled out even if there had been a motorcyclist or even a bus passing you at the time, and thus crashed with him too, but what seems to me much more likely is that he did look, but only enough to make sure the lane was clear, and did not pay attention to the "right side of the right lane", because he probably did not expect to find traffic there. Sure, in retrospect, duh, that's where most bicyclists ride, but bicycling is relatively rare, and if he was in a hurry, he could have easily just quickly checked the traffic lane, noticed that it was clear, and gone for it."

Dude, that makes it not looking, a quick check of one of two lanes and not making sure completely. You don't get half points for one lane looks. Careless, or failure to make sure it was clear to proceed. Buddy is busted up and you give him that?
A couple of weeks ago I almost hit a cyclist while driving. It was totally my fault. I looked, and I didn't see him. Best I can tell is my rear view mirror blocked my view of him at the moment I looked right. I was at a stop sign, intending to turn left. The cross street, going downhill from my right to left, had no stop sign. The cyclist was coming down the hill from the right, intended to turn left onto my street.

It should be noted that this is an intersection near my house, one I've turned left at easily several thousand times, and encountered a cyclist there only once or twice. There is usually very little traffic of any kind (it's all residential).

Luckily I saw him out of the corner of my eye (after I already started moving from the stop) and we both hit the brakes. He skidded out, but luckily did not fall. His face was as white as a ghost. I felt terrible. Again, it was my fault. I should have looked, waited, then looked again, or looked around the mirror or something. But what I did is look right as I was pulling up, saw that there was no traffic to my right (that's the point at which I think the mirror was blocking my view of the cyclist), stopped, looked left, and went. Normally the rear view mirror is not a problem, but since I was looking uphill to my right, it probably was. Or maybe he was obscured by shadows at the moment I looked right. Since I was going left, most of my attention was concerned with looking where I was going... left, not right where this unnoticed cyclist was coming from.

Anyway, if we had collided, it would have been awful, but mostly awful for him. And he probably would have reported that I pulled out without looking. But I swear, I looked. I just didn't see him. I really didn't see him. It happens to motorcyclists too. This is the reality that all of us encounter while we're out there. Ride accordingly.

[Bekologist]

what does you being a lousy driver have to do with vc? we're going to encounter bad drivers?

At what overtaking traffic speed does curbhugging become vehicular in narrow lanes for bicyclists?

can a cyclist fairly consistently curbhug and be a competant vehicular cyclist?

[genec]

I should have looked, waited, then looked again, or looked around the mirror or something.

Remember my commentary some time back about "looking twice?"

Folks get far too used to glancing and not actually looking. Look twice, and look for what you didn't see the first time.

[Helmet Head]

Remember my commentary some time back about "looking twice?"

Folks get far too used to glancing and not actually looking. Look twice, and look for what you didn't see the first time.
I definitely didn't do that and that's ultimately why it was why my fault.
Never-the-less, tons of drivers do that every day, year after year, without incident. Ride accordingly.

[Helmet Head]

what does you being a lousy driver have to do with vc? we're going to encounter bad drivers?
Yes.


At what overtaking traffic speed does curbhugging become vehicular in narrow lanes for bicyclists?

can a cyclist fairly consistently curbhug and be a competant vehicular cyclist?
It depends on how you are defining curbhugging.

If by curbhugging you mean "riding near the curb, but only when it's safe and reasonable to do so", then the answers are:
a) any speed. Curbhugging is not in violation of the vehicular rules of the road, so it's always vehicular.
b) it depends. If there are many long stretches of roadway without any intersections, junctions or driveways, then yes; otherwise no.

If by curbhugging you mean merely "riding near the curb even when it's unsafe or unreasonable", then the answers are:

a) at no speed.
b) no way.

If you have some other definition of curbhugging, then I'd have to know what it is in order to answer you question.

[TRaffic Jammer]

Never-the-less, tons of drivers do that every day, year after year, without incident. Ride accordingly.

Hence my peeve for drivers to learn how to drive as if what they doing is potentially a matter of life and death.
I know it can be easy to miss someone, especially with a low profile. Looking left and right several times.
When I'm behind the wheel my eyes never stop moving, scanning mirrors, I even do curb side shoulder looks to verify clear blind spots. It's not hard, it's called defensive driving. Glad you and he are alright. Despite our internet yammerings, I'd never wish a collision on anyone.

I guess I'm one of those over trained drivers, I got defensive driving hammered into me from a very young age. Then the military added some more, at one point a long time ago I had 4 different drivers' licenses.

[rando]

After commuting for a couple of years, I am WAY more observant of cyclists and peds. but still, in your big old vehicle, sometimes you forget. it happens.

[RobertHurst]

...

Anyway, if we had collided, it would have been awful, but mostly awful for him. And he probably would have reported that I pulled out without looking. But I swear, I looked. I just didn't see him. I really didn't see him. It happens to motorcyclists too. This is the reality that all of us encounter while we're out there. Ride accordingly.

Yes, and it happens even to riders in the middle of the street. I wasn't there but maybe this event was an example of how cyclist speed is generally a more important factor than lane position when it comes to being noticed by other road users.

Robert

[Helmet Head]

Yes, and it happens even to riders in the middle of the street. I wasn't there but maybe this event was an example of how cyclist speed is generally a more important factor than lane position when it comes to being noticed by other road users.

Robert
Yes, I have no idea how fast he was going because I didn't see him until he was skidding out. But it is a good downhill so odds are he was moving at a pretty good clip. But I still think the main factor was that because of the hill, he was higher than me, and blocked from my vision by my rearview mirror. Of course, that means he could not see my face either. If he was as big as a car, he would have been too big to be totally obscured by the mirror.

[JRA]

Forester inspired VC-ism is a gigantic load of crap. The association of rules of the road bicycling with the crackpot and patently absurd social, political and psychological theories of John Forester is the worst thing that has happened to bicycling advocacy in my lifetime.

[knatchwa]

The process ongoing, Vehicular Cycling, of interest. I ride regularly on the right, because there are times where I just become frustrated with the dance of the cars. And the stupidity of the drivers. Still I ride, but I do not define it as Vehicular Cycling, It is me acting like the vehicle I am. In turning, stopping and the whole bit. Simply a matter of safety of all those considered. Let us just say it is better to be safe then not.

[joejack951]

In good city traffic the rider will have caught up with the tail end of the traffic ahead, then they would do it to this grouping of traffic, thus virtually never passing or being passed by the same car twice.

First, I'm way behind on replying here. Sorry about that.

For a cyclist who can merely keep up with traffic (and not pass it like you are doing) or for a cyclist who cannot keep up with traffic. What is the benefit to be gained by going to the front at every light? Both of these types of cyclists will either be surrounded by motorists or getting passed by motorists in heavy traffic, right? For the short duration of a traffic light, what meaningful significance in terms of safety does being ahead of traffic have?

We two wheeled riders are seen as interlopers, as illustrated over and over by motorists, and by extension law enforcement's attitudes. Strength and power wins, and as long as there is the 'I'm bigger 'attitude behind the wheel, we'll always be in danger. I don't want to do a chicken/egg discussion as to how the attitudes were formed initially, I just ride the the system has grown. I get no hassles taking the lane when conditions are such that there is a high likelyhood of an accident that will impact a driver. (nasty storms and such...in Toronto I'll be grateful for this). Once conditions are better for driving, it's full speed ahead and get out of my way for all the metal beasties. I've often contended for years that if we had magical ACME 1 ton anvil hovering above us as we rode ready to fall on any car that got too close you'd see a remarkably differning attitude towards our cyclists, picking on the weak is much much easier afterall it seems

If I'm understanding you correctly, even in the worst weathe conditions, you do not have problems taking the lane. Then somehow, everything changes when the bad weather is gone. I'm having trouble figuring out how you can have any issues with taking a lane when in the paragraph above you just described how you are faster than all traffic most of the time.

You also describe motorists "picking on the weak." What are you doing that is giving motorists the idea that you are so weak as to be easy to pick on? I hate to sound like HH (only because he already talks enough about it, not that I don't agree with him), but it really sounds like your attitude is the cause of your problems in traffic. The fact that you describe yourself as an "interloper" and "always in danger" and motorists having "the strength and power" is really telling about how you ride in traffic. My experience in traffic is the complete opposite and I'm in the bottom 1% in terms of speed on the roads I ride.

Being ahead is better than being beside, however not always possible. Being able to share is a key skill indeed, the sharability of the curb lans changes as one travels in the city. Ppl turning off and on, parking, exiting parked cars, racing for the open centre lane from the curb lane, cabs diving for fares et al, are why I DO NOT want to be beside a car in the core.... "I'm sorry I didn't see you" might be a legal excuse that works, but if you get hit from behind.. then you can so easily call their skill as a drive into play as the ONUS IS ON THE OVERTAKING VEHICLE, this seems to be the one tenant of driving all ppl on the roads agree with, incl. law enforement. If a car crashes me by squeezing me into parked cars, turning on me, or some such looniness..I'm beside him in his blind spot, legal limbo.. kill/maim and get away. My personal space gets weirded when a car gets to within less than 6 inches, if I can reach out and tap ya without stretching then you are too close. IF I have run up to him this closely then it's not really his fault, but I can;t expect him to move for me, so I make sure I am in harm's way for as little time as possible

What keeps you from being able to be in front of the traffic in the same lane as you as opposed to next to it? Why are you moving to the right if it isn't safe and appropriate to do so? And please, spare me your personal interpretation of the law. Traffic law would never require someone to operate their vehicle in a dangerous manner. There are ALWAYS exceptions to the law in the situations where it describes a certain roadways position and that position is not safe.

They NEVER stop! Cars pull out from parking, exit cars, change lanes at lights, preturn, cross turn (I've had my worst accidents with cars turning across stopped oncoming, but failing to see me still being oncoming.. usually in the rain) Gridlock is the lack of forward momentum by not all momentum.

As I already asked, what then is the benefit of being out in front by yourself instead of moving along in the pack?

Around post 178, where "pro messengers" were differentiated from scofflaws. For the average rider, I'd recommend not being a gutter bunny, if you ride like you belong you'll be much less picked on.. BUT BUT BUT, you have to know when to hold 'em and when to fold'em as it were and this takes practice. Be adaptable and don;t ever expect to be treated like a car, EVER!! What would amount to a fender bender, could result in massive injuries or death for you. WE ARE NOT CARS!! In many instances in high volume situations in the city we are the fastest things around, faster than transit, faster than all but emergency vehicles

"if you ride like you belong you'll be much less picked on.." This sounds like a completely different person posting here. Previously, it sounded like there was no escaping the mean motorists. Now, you just have to ride like you belong and they'll treat you much better. And what is this about being treated "like a car"? You seem to constantly go back to this. You seem to be in the minority thinking that being treated "like a car" is better than being treated like a cyclist. I greatly prefer the treatment I get as a cyclist. Complete strangers are sometimes so happy to see me that they take the time to offer some actual words of encouragement. When's the last time that happened to you while driving?

Oh my :lol: hardly, sorry to give you that impression. I hardly ever get honked or hassled considering the amount of time I'm riding in core traffic. Sure everyone gets the knob, or sometimes I'm the knob, but for the most part it's easy sailing. This way of riding I've become adapted to over twenty years ago. I ride as if I'm invisable plain and simple b/c that's all I ever heard after confronting motorists for their bad "sharing". So I stopped expecting to be considered, but refused to run from them. Guess what .. it worked. Now I wouldn't go riding this way in high speed arterials though. Like I said grouper fish with sharks.

Perhaps riding as if you are "invisible" is another cause of some of the grief and danger you experience riding in traffic. If you truly believe you are invisible, you must be constantly trying to dodge passing motorists and always getting out of the way (ironically, in the worst weather, you somehow become perfectly visible and able to take the lane though). Do you ride with a mirror? If not, I truly believe it would be an eye opening experience for you to see just how visible you are to motorists when you ride in a visible and predictable location. The best part is that you can take the same riding style and use it on high speed arterials (reference HH's dynamic lateral lane positioning threads for a pretty good idea of how I ride).

[TRaffic Jammer]

OK JoeJack, I see VC zealotry and reading comprehension are not friends. I'll try to answer some of your queries, though I imagine it's as pointless as speaking with HH, based on your wonderful quoting skills in formulating responses where you try to pick on every phrase written not unlike some other mass quoter's here.

First off I'm not in danger or hassled on the streets very often anymore. I speak of riders I see and come across, as well as the over 20 years of daily riding, 6 of those "professionally" as a messenger on the 80's in Montreal. I know of which I speak. OK?

The benefit of being in front is you get to leave the light with what I would call wobble room. Instead of bouncing off cars, or hopping along the curb as I've you'd be on your way, out of the mass of cars. Again YOU ARE IN FRONT!!! I get to pick the line instead of having it picked for me by a bunch of motorists. I don't use what's left over of the road, I use the road. Not in a blind spot not to parked, turn, open doored etc. I don't why this is so difficult for you cats to grok. It full-on mystifies me. This however is not always possible, hence being adaptable.

"If I'm understanding you correctly, even in the worst weathe conditions, you do not have problems taking the lane. Then somehow, everything changes when the bad weather is gone. I'm having trouble figuring out how you can have any issues with taking a lane when in the paragraph above you just described how you are faster than all traffic most of the time."

Again it comes to the comprehension.... rather it's the motorists that have no issues with me taking the lane in crappy weather. This vanishes is the nicer conditions as explained in previous posts. "I get no hassles taking the lane when conditions are such that there is a high likelyhood of an accident that will impact a driver. (nasty storms and such.." When the driver thinks there is significantly higher chance of an accident they seem to back off. Merely an observation of years of daily core riding.
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/981/picture1rk8.png Take this morning, after two snow storms, a foot of snow. Curb lane sucks with snow to float on and ice from compression and straight bladed plows on graded streets. See how I'm dominating the curb lane? Not a single car came up behind me and honked. If I tried that in a few days once everything is cleared, I'd never get away with it. This seemingly keeps coming up in your posts about how I'm in front all the time... I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. Once in the core of downtown, yes..I generally am in front. Riding into it though, no, the blocks are too long and the speeds of the cars too great. I hope this clears up this misunderstanding.


"if you ride like you belong you'll be much less picked on.." This sounds like a completely different person posting here. Previously, it sounded like there was no escaping the mean motorists. Now, you just have to ride like you belong and they'll treat you much better. And what is this about being treated "like a car"? You seem to constantly go back to this. You seem to be in the minority thinking that being treated "like a car" is better than being treated like a cyclist. I greatly prefer the treatment I get as a cyclist. Complete strangers are sometimes so happy to see me that they take the time to offer some actual words of encouragement. When's the last time that happened to you while driving?


Man, you have got to stop being so literal. Read what it says...."if you ride like you belong you'll be much less picked on.." much less picked .... not, you won't be picked on. I'm not suggesting any magical panacea to cure all cyclist woes, as the VC are already trying this and making complete fools of themselves. Riding as if you were a car, is expecting to be treated as one. VC? Vehicular Cycling, biking like a vehicle... sounds about right no? So you'd bike like a vehicle with no thoughts as to being treated like one? Cyclists, in general, get no respect, from either motorists or law enforcement. So riding as if I'm in "the club" makes no sense.

"Complete strangers are sometimes so happy to see me that they take the time to offer some actual words of encouragement." :lol: This cracked me up, what magical land of unicorns and milk maidens waving at you from the fields do you ride in? I want a plane ticket, sounds like Nirvana.

"Perhaps riding as if you are "invisible" is another cause of some of the grief and danger you experience riding in traffic. If you truly believe you are invisible, you must be constantly trying to dodge passing motorists and always getting out of the way (ironically, in the worst weather, you somehow become perfectly visible and able to take the lane though). Do you ride with a mirror? If not, I truly believe it would be an eye opening experience for you to see just how visible you are to motorists when you ride in a visible and predictable location. The best part is that you can take the same riding style and use it on high speed arterials (reference HH's dynamic lateral lane positioning threads for a pretty good idea of how I ride)."

Yet again your literal interpretation with zero comprehension have let you down. I DO NOT think I am invisible, I am not that character from Soap that thought he was invisible. I ride "like" I am invisible b/c that's what was said to me over and over when people came close to hitting me, by me being beside them when they decided to turn, park, move over in the lane etc..is "I'm sorry I didn't see you", hence why I assume I am invisible, never again to trust a car to see me no matter what I do. Shoulder checks and even turn signals are something that should be hammered into drivers. This is also where I decided that being in front was where I wanted to be, much safer. After years of riding the way I ride, I have far fewer incident's than you perceive, I almost never get honked at or pressured. This is b/c the motorists don't get the chance, as I am gone in the city. You can't hit what isn't there.

Do you ride with a mirror? If not, I truly believe it would be an eye opening experience for you to see just how visible you are to motorists when you ride in a visible and predictable location. The best part is that you can take the same riding style and use it on high speed arterials (reference HH's dynamic lateral lane positioning threads for a pretty good idea of how I ride)

NO i do not ride with a mirror, I prefer shoulder checks to a square inch sight line. As a VC'r surely you can understand the benefit of actually looking back. Yea, you go ride those high speed arterials like HH says to.....dynamic lateral lane positioning..is called weaving elsewhere and that's dangerous as all hell.

ironically, in the worst weather, you somehow become perfectly visible and able to take the lane though)

Believe me, my friend, the irony that I am safer from motorists in crappy weather doesn't escape me. When the motorist thinks there is a higher likelihood of damaging themselves or killing someone, they back off. Motorists aren't evil killers. They don't want to kill you. In the gross weather I'm quite sure they think the chances of a cyclist going down are much greater, and thusly, a higher chance they will run someone over who has gone down in front of them. When it's nice and the rider isn't as likely to go down in front of them they get antsy aggressive and pushy once more. HEY this might explain VC's perceived success with dynamic lateral lane positioning...if drivers are terrified of killing weaving VC riders, they would back off. :lol:

[patc]

Again it comes to the comprehension.... rather it's the motorists that have no issues with me taking the lane in crappy weather. This vanishes is the nicer conditions as explained in previous posts. "I get no hassles taking the lane when conditions are such that there is a high likelyhood of an accident that will impact a driver. (nasty storms and such.." When the driver thinks there is significantly higher chance of an accident they seem to back off. Merely an observation of years of daily core riding.
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/981/picture1rk8.png

I normally stay out of these discussions now... but I have to jump on this. Finally an example of real-world cycling!. This is what I deal with every day... except our snow removal is not nearly as good as shown in that photo!

In very bad weather, motorists go more slowly and are more careful around cyclists. In poor road conditions - when the road is visibly too narrow to share (and heck, the car barely fits) motorists are more understanding and patient with a cyclist taking the lane. I have to question the cycling experience (or lack thereof) of anyone who doesn't know this.

[noisebeam]

In very bad weather, motorists go more slowly and are more careful around cyclists. In poor road conditions - when the road is visibly too narrow to share (and heck, the car barely fits) motorists are more understanding and patient with a cyclist taking the lane. I have to question the cycling experience (or lack thereof) of anyone who doesn't know this.

Where I live the only degraded road conditions are either due to construction or heavy rain fall. No snow here!
I've taken the lane in construction zones and been honked at only once (I showed a video a while back) out of many cases.
I've taken the far left of lane when the right 3/4 was flooded and drivers followed well back. They were also challenged by the flooding and heavy rain o overall speeds and following distances were down for most all drivers.

Yeah when it is obvious the cyclist has no other choice can lead to better understanding. This can be due to weather (snow blocks sidewalk and right side of lane) or can be thru design such as a NOL. The opposite effect happens too. Road is designed with a BL, but cyclist chooses not to use it (say at intersection) the motorist may not see the reason and could be less patient.

Al

[patc]

Yeah when it is obvious the cyclist has no other choice can lead to better understanding. This can be due to weather (snow blocks sidewalk and right side of lane) or can be thru design such as a NOL. The opposite effect happens too. Road is designed with a BL, but cyclist chooses not to use it (say at intersection) the motorist may not see the reason and could be less patient.

Al

Do motorists really need an excuse to get impatient? ;)

Seriously, though, that is a genuine point when WOL or Bike Lanes are present - although it has so seldom happened to me that I feel the benefits of the BL far outweigh the potential problems.

Back to the point - I also have found motorists more understanding in construction zones (though the "bikes use full lane" signs may have helped) and any other time the conditions are poor and/or the road is unusually narrowed.

We've had a record amount of snowfall this winter... yuck... we're lucky when the RTOL is cleared!

[joejack951]

OK JoeJack, I see VC zealotry and reading comprehension are not friends. I'll try to answer some of your queries, though I imagine it's as pointless as speaking with HH, based on your wonderful quoting skills in formulating responses where you try to pick on every phrase written not unlike some other mass quoter's here.

My only reason for breaking up posts into pieces (usually like just like they were posted though sometimes not) is to make it clearer about which part of the post I am replying to. This is not a normal conversation where we each get to chime in when we want. I have to wait for you to respond to what I said (and hopefully everything I said) before I get a chance to do the same. If that annoys you then perhaps an internet discussion forum isn't the best place for you to converse with others. I have to assume that since you have stuck around a while that it must not bother you too much though. And for the record, when I do break specific phrases out of a post, I do my best to respond in context and to try and understand what the writer meant when they wrote it. Sometimes I get it wrong though.

Strength and power wins, and as long as there is the 'I'm bigger 'attitude behind the wheel, we'll always be in danger.

First off I'm not in danger or hassled on the streets very often anymore. I speak of riders I see and come across, as well as the over 20 years of daily riding, 6 of those "professionally" as a messenger on the 80's in Montreal. I know of which I speak. OK?

Ok, you didn't do a very good job of communicating that you had solved the danger issue but other cyclists have not.

The benefit of being in front is you get to leave the light with what I would call wobble room. Instead of bouncing off cars, or hopping along the curb as I've you'd be on your way, out of the mass of cars. Again YOU ARE IN FRONT!!! I get to pick the line instead of having it picked for me by a bunch of motorists. I don't use what's left over of the road, I use the road. Not in a blind spot not to parked, turn, open doored etc. I don't why this is so difficult for you cats to grok. It full-on mystifies me. This however is not always possible, hence being adaptable.

Maybe if I put it this way my point will make more sense. You seem to see that a cyclist has one of two cycling positions available:

1. In front of motorists with the entire lane available
2. in the vicinity of motorists and off to the side.

Is this correct? I'm going by your bolded statement by the way.

My view, on the other hand, is that there is a third option:

3. in the vicinity of motorists with the entire lane available (aka: taking the lane)

You claim that this is "not always possible" and that is the statement I have been challenging. When I have wanted and needed to use the full lane, I have never not been able to (aside from maybe a temporary shift right due to a close pass).

Again it comes to the comprehension.... rather it's the motorists that have no issues with me taking the lane in crappy weather. This vanishes is the nicer conditions as explained in previous posts. "I get no hassles taking the lane when conditions are such that there is a high likelyhood of an accident that will impact a driver. (nasty storms and such.." When the driver thinks there is significantly higher chance of an accident they seem to back off. Merely an observation of years of daily core riding.

I still fail to see how a motorist (or even motorists, though I highly doubt it comes close to approaching any significant percentage of motorists you encounter) can force you into a position where you cannot take the lane for any more than a temporary period where someone decided to pass closely. [Note: if you are getting constant close passes, I highly suggest looking at what you can do to make motorists give you more room.]

Take this morning, after two snow storms, a foot of snow. Curb lane sucks with snow to float on and ice from compression and straight bladed plows on graded streets. See how I'm dominating the curb lane? Not a single car came up behind me and honked. If I tried that in a few days once everything is cleared, I'd never get away with it. This seemingly keeps coming up in your posts about how I'm in front all the time... I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. Once in the core of downtown, yes..I generally am in front. Riding into it though, no, the blocks are too long and the speeds of the cars too great. I hope this clears up this misunderstanding.

That lane looks pretty wide (without the snow there). Is there a reason why you'd want to be using the full lane on a normal day? Debris, parked cars, intersections? If so, what do you mean by "never get away with it"? Would you be honked at? If so, so what? Assuming you only had to temporarily take over the full lane to get through an intersection or pass a parked car, is a single honk while doing so really that discouraging to you, especially after riding for so many years? Is avoiding the honk worth the decreased safety of being too far right at the wrong time?

My experience does match yours though in terms of motorist acceptance when a normally wide road has been narrowed by snow/ice. Motorists are driving slower and can obviously see that there's no way for a cyclist to ride further right. Without the snow, some motorists might not think about why a cyclist would be taking the lane because they don't see/care about the right turn only lane, debris, or intersection. But, where my experience does not match yours is in being forced out of a position I want to take. It just doesn't happen to me and from the sounds of it, I ride on a lot more high speed arterials (where one would expect this treatment to be more common).

Man, you have got to stop being so literal. Read what it says...."if you ride like you belong you'll be much less picked on.." much less picked .... not, you won't be picked on. I'm not suggesting any magical panacea to cure all cyclist woes, as the VC are already trying this and making complete fools of themselves. Riding as if you were a car, is expecting to be treated as one. VC? Vehicular Cycling, biking like a vehicle... sounds about right no? So you'd bike like a vehicle with no thoughts as to being treated like one? Cyclists, in general, get no respect, from either motorists or law enforcement. So riding as if I'm in "the club" makes no sense.

"much less picked on" vs. "they'll treat you much better." Is there a meaningful difference between those two statements?

A "vehicle" does not necessarily mean a car. "Vehicle" is a borad term encompassing many forms of transportation including bikes, cars, trucks, street sweepers, and horses. I wish to be treated as a vehicle which means treated as if others expect me to behave in a lawful manner on the roads because I am a lawful road user. Whether or not most motorists believe the second part, they act like I want them to so you won't hear me complaining.

If you truly believe that cyclists "get no respect" then I truly feel sorry for you and it's no wonder you ride like you do. Perhaps if you started believing that others would treat you like you want to be treated if you acted as though you expected to be treated a certain way things would improve for you. Expecting to be treated as though others don't respect you is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Yet again your literal interpretation with zero comprehension have let you down. I DO NOT think I am invisible, I am not that character from Soap that thought he was invisible. I ride "like" I am invisible b/c that's what was said to me over and over when people came close to hitting me, by me being beside them when they decided to turn, park, move over in the lane etc..is "I'm sorry I didn't see you", hence why I assume I am invisible, never again to trust a car to see me no matter what I do. Shoulder checks and even turn signals are something that should be hammered into drivers. This is also where I decided that being in front was where I wanted to be, much safer. After years of riding the way I ride, I have far fewer incident's than you perceive, I almost never get honked at or pressured. This is b/c the motorists don't get the chance, as I am gone in the city. You can't hit what isn't there.

Honestly, it sounds like you could use some defensive driver training to help you out in the city. Riding alongside a motorist puts you in their blindspot. An easy way to avoid the "I did not see you" is to not put yourself in that position, and if you do happen to get there to be extra attentive and look for a way out (such as adjusting speed). Pretty basic stuff in my book that does not require resorting to scofflaw cycling tactics (unless of course your main motivation is moving through the city quicker and not simply moving through safely).

NO i do not ride with a mirror, I prefer shoulder checks to a square inch sight line. As a VC'r surely you can understand the benefit of actually looking back. Yea, you go ride those high speed arterials like HH says to.....dynamic lateral lane positioning..is called weaving elsewhere and that's dangerous as all hell.

You have never used a mirror if you think you only get a "square inch sight line." I can see more of traffic behind me in my mirror than I can with a look back. It takes less time thus removing my attention from what's in front of me for far less time while allowing me to monitor what's behind me more often. I still use lookbacks when appropriate but I don't use them to gauge traffic behind me any more. With the mirror, I can reassign lookbacks to the task of communication with motorists where I find them far more effective.

Believe me, my friend, the irony that I am safer from motorists in crappy weather doesn't escape me. When the motorist thinks there is a higher likelihood of damaging themselves or killing someone, they back off. Motorists aren't evil killers. They don't want to kill you. In the gross weather I'm quite sure they think the chances of a cyclist going down are much greater, and thusly, a higher chance they will run someone over who has gone down in front of them. When it's nice and the rider isn't as likely to go down in front of them they get antsy aggressive and pushy once more. HEY this might explain VC's perceived success with dynamic lateral lane positioning...if drivers are terrified of killing weaving VC riders, they would back off. :lol:

Think about the bolded statement then explain to me again how you can be supposedly forced out of a lane controlling position even by an aggressive motorist (if I am incorrect with my interpretation here of your statement please correct me).

Using a dynamic position doesn't get drivers to back off. It allows me to be in a better position in case I encounter a situation where I need to control a lane suddenly but gives me the freedom to allow traffic to pass more easily when appropriate (as opposed to taking a static line either on the right edge of the road or in the traffic lane). It also make it easier for me to communicate with drivers as most understand just by my lane position how I want to be passed or if I want to be passed at all. You should try it sometime.

[Trey Merrell]

So, what'll it be, guns or knives?

Bikes are evil because they don't burn oil. But don't worry, we're working on a scheme to require oil burning smudge pots on the back of all bikes in the state of Texas.

[kleengee]

I'm not sure if this is a good place to post this:

I ride on rural roads, usually with my wife, and we obey the vehicular rules of NJ (even though I have to remind my wife about the rules). When I am following the rules, motorists are pretty respectful.

The other day while driving, I reminded a VC'er about the vehicular rules. I know, it was a bad move on my part. (Sorry bud if you're out there.) The VC'er responded by threatening me with violence, and he then took off through a red light. Bad move on his part.


How is awareness going to change by exhibiting anger and disrespect?

[Ed Holland]

I'm not sure if this is a good place to post this:

I ride on rural roads, usually with my wife, and we obey the vehicular rules of NJ (even though I have to remind my wife about the rules). When I am following the rules, motorists are pretty respectful.

The other day while driving, I reminded a VC'er about the vehicular rules. I know, it was a bad move on my part. (Sorry bud if you're out there.) The VC'er responded by threatening me with violence, and he then took off through a red light. Bad move on his part.


How is awareness going to change by exhibiting anger and disrespect?

Too bad - nobody likes to be corrected, but a jerk is a jerk... cyclist or not.

Don't fret about it.

[jakerock]

I just have a little safety / efficiency meter on the handlebars and try and keep it in the middle there someplace.

Since moving to NYC, I do a little "VC" I suppose. I take a bit of the lane instead of cowering over at the side, waiting to get doored and with my fingers on the brake lever always... gritting my teeth in humble subservience. I didnt get there very fast, seemed unsafe, and I wasnt having a good time.

Having a "little" attitude on a bike seems safer to me than the above method. Then theres the other extreme, being super aggressive and riding beyond your ability to be safe is no good either.

Its really about the local traffic. in New York they drive like ****, but are used to seeing bikes everywhere. If I was back in Louisville I know it is a whole other ballgame, and wouldnt ride like I do here.

Having said that, if I see an opening, and no cars / people, I am going to move on, no matter what the lights and signs say. I am an entitled **** in that regard. Coming to a complete stop isnt impressing anyone around here.

You have to read the minds of the drivers around you. Or they will casually drive over you with their elbow on the windowsill, talking on the phone.

[genec]

You have to read the minds of the drivers around you. Or they will casually drive over you with their elbow on the windowsill, talking on the phone.

That "need" quickly nullifies the VC mantra of "Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles.

That is my biggest complaint about the VC method... is that it is not in fact as reciprocal as one is lead to believe.

While many drivers may not actually harass me as a commuting cyclist, I am hardly an equal in their minds... I am more of an obstruction to be avoided or maneuvered around. So the VC "mantra" sort of really works out like this:
"Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles, but don't expect it, cyclist."