Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - Clyde Drafting

The topic of drafting is being discussed in the commuter forum, but I think it's worth bringing up here as well. Having both drafted and taken a pull, I have some questions on the practice:

1. What speed do you need to reach to successfully pull for someone? I've been able to pull for fellow Clydesdales on the slight upgrade and head wind of the Schuylkill River Trail from Philadelphia to Audubon, but in many cases I can't manage to climb hills above 7 MPH. I doubt there's any benefit from following me at that speed aside from amusement value.

2. Should I expect a smaller rider to take over pulling when I tire? For example, Neil F., who weighs 60 pounds less than me and is at least 4 inches shorter.

3. Is if OK to draft a stranger? Should I ask first? I've twice drafted folks without asking (one Clyde and one tandem), but that's because they weren't close enough for me to ask - I was too out of breath to do anything but struggle to keep going.

1. I don't think drafting really help unless you going 15mph or more or if you have a really strong head wind.

2. A smaller rider will definately cut the wind for you but see #3.

3. You have to be within a foot maybe two of the person to actually be getting any benefit from drafting. If you are farther back than that you aren't drafting. This is why drafting is such a heated topic becuase it can be dangerous because the riders are so close together. Many of the roadies that run in the pelaton will actually overlap tires so bike handling skills are uber imporant.

1. What speed do you need to reach to successfully pull for someone?

You just need to go at a safe and steady speed, not faster then the draftee. If you go 7 mph up hills and the draftee goes 7 mph, then you are fine. Obviously the faster the pull the more the wind resistance but every little but helps.

2. Should I expect a smaller rider to take over pulling when I tire? For example, Neil F., who weighs 60 pounds less than me and is at least 4 inches shorter.

Makes no difference. Of course as the bigger guy you offer more resistance but the little guy can still give you a break. Every one should take their turn.

3. Is if OK to draft a stranger? Should I ask first? I've twice drafted folks without asking (one Clyde and one tandem), but that's because they weren't close enough for me to ask - I was too out of breath to do anything but struggle to keep going.

Mmmm close call. I would say no unless you ask. In a club ride or an organized rides, I tend to draft without asking because well it's more expected. If you are out on a solo ride, always ask. Alot of people aren't comfortable with drafting. I usually ride forward, ask if they mind if I "tag along" and then suggest I pull awhile.

I never ride in groups, so I'm just not used to drafting. I expect that's part of the problem with drafting in general.

Wow, where to start? I like to call myself the "Architect", because everyone else is my draftsperson. I wouldn't have kept riding road bike if my 155lbs. friend didn't draft me everywhere. So yes, smaller guys put off nearly as good of a draft as larger ones.

I suck off the wheel of anyone I can get in my sights, but I always ask first. And, I always offer drafting in return if they want it.

I'm 6' and 215-230lbs. People have been able to catch a draft 6-8 feet behind me without fear of running into my back tire. I have also found drafting to work as low as 10-12mph on a calm day, but I will run 2" off the side of your back wheel if you let me.

If someone is riding stronger than you, let them pull and vise-versa. I don't think it matters what size, gender, or condition they're in, people are social creatures and want the company (accept - crotchety ones who think everyone is better than them, or training racers who are working on intervals).

The one thing that freaks me out though is sudden movements from the one pulling. I've ridden with inexperienced pullers and they forget you're right behind them when they take there hands off the bars for a rest. I've never crashed, but I think I've left stains on my crotch pad avoiding the probable. So, if you ask someone to pull, also ask them if they've pulled a draft before.

I have heard 17mph was the min. But I have felt the benefits as low as 12 mph.

If I am drafting, I will be around 2-5 inches just to the side of the back wheel.

I have only drafted off people I was riding with, I haven't found anyone while I was just out riding. Not a lot of riders in my area.

A friend and I discussed this one day after a ride. We both agreed that we had to be going 20 mph to have really noticeable benefits.

I had someone draft off me the other day , I laughed and thought it was a compliment

I'm 6'-3", and have freakishly broad shoulders.

Every club ride, someone goes out of their way to say 'you're really fun to draft.' As in, 'yeah, I just have to pedal three or four turns every five seconds or so.' EVERY RIDE. Do they reciprocate with a pull? Rarely.

I should start charging.

1. What speed do you need to reach to successfully pull for someone? I've been able to pull for fellow Clydesdales on the slight upgrade and head wind of the Schuylkill River Trail from Philadelphia to Audubon, but in many cases I can't manage to climb hills above 7 MPH. I doubt there's any benefit from following me at that speed aside from amusement value.

Speeds below about 15mph don't offer too much aerodynamic benefit with drafting. However, going uphill slowly at less than 15mph, following someone else's wheel is a great idea: it's called setting the pace. It's a great motivator at any speed. Professional & amateur racers do it all the time (myself included). So yes, there is still a benefit from following a wheel at slow speeds.

2. Should I expect a smaller rider to take over pulling when I tire? For example, Neil F., who weighs 60 pounds less than me and is at least 4 inches shorter.

In drafting, those behind do not come around, the leader gets out of the way. And yes, smaller riders do offer draft benefits. I outweigh my 12 year-old (and some smaller women riders) by 140-pounds, but I still get draft benefits and I will suck their wheels without hesitation! :D

3. Is if OK to draft a stranger? Should I ask first? I've twice drafted folks without asking (one Clyde and one tandem), but that's because they weren't close enough for me to ask - I was too out of breath to do anything but struggle to keep going.

If you're on an organized--or club--ride, there's probably no need to ask--it's expected. But, if you're out by yourself and happen upon someone else or they overtake you, ask first. Just a simple, "Mind if I draft?" will suffice. I doubt anyone would say no. If you've never ridden with this person, stay back a bit--about one wheel diameter--until you see how smoothly they ride. If they're fluid and smooth, go ahead and snuggle in nice and tight. If not, stay back! And then, unless you can't hold a straight line to save your life, after you've recovered, pull through and share the workload!! Nobody likes pulling someone else all day! Also, if you're drafting only one person, the aerodynamics peeter out around 4-5 feet or so. But if you're in a large enough group...you can be 10-20 feet back and still get some draft.

EDIT: Never, ever, ever let your front wheel overlap the back wheel of the person you're drafting off. :eek: Trust me on this. Don't do it!

I'm 6'-3", and have freakishly broad shoulders.

Every club ride, someone goes out of their way to say 'you're really fun to draft.' As in, 'yeah, I just have to pedal three or four turns every five seconds or so.' EVERY RIDE. Do they reciprocate with a pull? Rarely.

I should start charging.

You should pull over to the side, then, and force them to take a hint and start pulling. Or, start freewheeling. I did this in a race once. Found myself on the front & didn't want to be there. So I stopped applying any sort of pressure to the pedals and pulled over a bit. Eventually, somebody else pulled through. (I got 2nd in that race, too! :D)

You don't like being a personal domestique? :eek: Never heard of such a thing ;)
I'm 6'-3", and have freakishly broad shoulders.

Every club ride, someone goes out of their way to say 'you're really fun to draft.' As in, 'yeah, I just have to pedal three or four turns every five seconds or so.' EVERY RIDE. Do they reciprocate with a pull? Rarely.

I should start charging.

Think more about airspeed when asking is drafting effective. 15 mph or so seems to be a pratical limit.

I've a riding friend who is 14" shorter & 120 pounds lighter. I can get some benefit off drafting her, but it is a small one (apun, perhaps?). She tucks in behind me & goes "Wind, what wind?"

Don't draft strangers. I ride differently when I know someone is drafting me, pointing out hazards, talking about speed & direction changes, and the like. And I only draft someone I know & trust.

I also think that there is not enough benefit under 15 mph or so, and that drafting one smaller person does not do that much either. I would also be hesitant to draft off of random people that you meet while riding with them, unless you openly discuss what you are doing. There is a lot of trust, both ways, in drafting and riding together, and it is better to be very clear about what you both expect.

I would suggest that you go on some local group rides in your area, and practice drafting with people that ride at your level. Not only will you not be either significanlty faster or slower than your drafting partners, but I have found that it is better all-the-way-around to practice drafting in paceline or group situations. Nothing teaches you the techniques faster than riding with a group, and it will keep you from becoming accustomed to a limited range of riders and conditions that could spell trouble later on, when you are riding with less-familiar riders during an organized ride. Another huge benefit for us larger riders, is that you get a much better "pull" behind a line smaller riders, as opposed to trying to draft off of just one dude.

Have fun out there!

all great advice. never draft if they dont know your there and ask. i am 5'9" 255 and i am used to people drafting me all the time. and they comment on how wonderful the rest is before pulling again, if they do lol. i take great pride on being a stronger rider than many people 50-60 pounds lighter than i:D . my buddie will kick my butt on the trails all day but on days we ride road hes always the first in line to draft:roflmao:

I get drafted a lot too. Especially on downhill sections. Even on extended slight-downhill sections, they love to get behind us clydes. Whoosh.

I've drafted off my bro-in-law a time or two. It helps more than I thought it would. He is about 5"8 and 175lbs where I am 6" and 220lbs. It helped enough where I could catch my breath. It works!

A buddy and I have done some drafting, even on MB at 14-15 mph it is noticeable.

I don't draft with strangers, not good form, and I don't know their riding habits.

I don't mind when someone drafts me.....even in a large group....just as long as they aren't too close.....if someone touches my wheel, that's when we're gonna have a little "discussion" ....

I was out yesterday with some friends, I was the largest. We got caught in some high winds, 30-40mph with gust to 50. Guess who everyone wanted to draft behind? One thing I have found is climbing hills into a head wind slows the smaller guys down so much that I can out climb them, again they were drafting on me.

I'm 6'4" and 205lbs and all of my riding friends love drafting behind me. I can still get a draft behind them, even the 5'7" 130lb ones.

The little guys can get me on th short hills but I grind them out on longer hills and they can't even compete on long downhills.

-J

I pull my wife from time to time when I can get her out (not at all in the winter...she and cold don't mix well)

I guess really I am pace setting for her, as well don't ever really get above 15mph. Though on a few rides where there was a BAD crossing headwind, I had her behind me and to the side a bit, with about 1 inch overlap. She said it really made a difference. I suspect that in headwinds especially you can feel the benefits of drafting at lower speeds.

The only other exp. I have drafting has been a scant few times when I picked up a fellow commuters wheel (after asking), or the same guy picked my wheel. This has only happened once or twice, and he/I stayed back about 1 ft.

I'm 6'-3", and have freakishly broad shoulders.

Every club ride, someone goes out of their way to say 'you're really fun to draft.' As in, 'yeah, I just have to pedal three or four turns every five seconds or so.' EVERY RIDE. Do they reciprocate with a pull? Rarely.

I should start charging.

Well... clydesdales are draft horses. :D

I haven't done a lot of road riding but every time I've done so in a group I've had the same reaction. So I feel your pain.

Out here on the Plains the wind blows almost every day. Any day with winds below 15 mph is considered "calm". So it doesn't take much speed on upwind routes to make drafting worthwhile.

Well... clydesdales are draft horses. :D

I haven't done a lot of road riding but every time I've done so in a group I've had the same reaction. So I feel your pain.

Hm, this thread came back from a good long sleep.

Basically, in group rides I don't mind pulling more, because I'm the one getting stronger, not them. It's paid off too, because the last ride I dropped the C++ group like a bad habit and finished with the B's. (Yes, I caught them.) I did it on the climbs as well as the descents, too. :D

I have gotten better about asking for pulls lately, too. It also helps when I'm chasing B's, because I'm basically hanging on there for dear life, and so I'm getting back a lot of the favors I've given to other people. I guess it comes around.

3. Is if OK to draft a stranger? Should I ask first? I've twice drafted folks without asking (one Clyde and one tandem), but that's because they weren't close enough for me to ask - I was too out of breath to do anything but struggle to keep going.

If you're on an organized--or club--ride, there's probably no need to ask--it's expected. But, if you're out by yourself and happen upon someone else or they overtake you, ask first. Just a simple, "Mind if I draft?" will suffice. I doubt anyone would say no. If you've never ridden with this person, stay back a bit--about one wheel diameter--until you see how smoothly they ride. If they're fluid and smooth, go ahead and snuggle in nice and tight. If not, stay back! And then, unless you can't hold a straight line to save your life, after you've recovered, pull through and share the workload!! Nobody likes pulling someone else all day! Also, if you're drafting only one person, the aerodynamics peeter out around 4-5 feet or so. But if you're in a large enough group...you can be 10-20 feet back and still get some draft.

EDIT: Never, ever, ever let your front wheel overlap the back wheel of the person you're drafting off. :eek: Trust me on this. Don't do it!

OK. I feel better about this. During my first metric century and my first MS ride I drafted. In the metric it was a tandem that was part of a group. In the MS ride it was a clydesdale who managed to make ME look small. I didn't think that was possible. He clearly knew I was drafting him, and I don't think he was too pleased about it.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g87/ronjon10/RandomRides/344775688110_0_BG.jpg

Here I am in the black/red jersey at 6'2" (with a tall torso) and 240 being drafted by 2 of my 5'1" 110 lb friends. hahaha. Someday I'd like to feel what it's like riding in that sort of draft :)