"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - If I flick my left elbow ...

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View Full Version : If I flick my left elbow ...

recursive
01-22-08, 08:05 AM
(I had one idea, but then I was reading some Thomas Prehn, and he had a different one, but I won't spoil it by saying which they are, although I realize if I disagree with Prehn, I'm probably not right. But still, I want to see how this breaks down)

botto
01-22-08, 08:09 AM
if you flick your elbow, and i was on your wheel, i would take it that you were signaling for me to pull through.

whether i chose to do so is another matter.

recursive
01-22-08, 08:13 AM
if you flick your elbow, and i was on your wheel, i would take it that you were signaling for me to pull through.

whether i chose to do so is another matter.

Yes, but on which side? On the flicked side? Or the opposite side?

Perhaps my poll wording wasn't clear.

jrennie
01-22-08, 08:13 AM
pull through on the left

MDcatV
01-22-08, 08:18 AM
if you flick your L elbow, I would interpret that to mean pull through on the L and you fall back on the R side of the group.

LowCel
01-22-08, 08:20 AM
Depends on which way the wind is coming from. You should pull off into the wind.

waterrockets
01-22-08, 08:20 AM
if you flick your L elbow, I would interpret that to mean pull through on the L and you fall back on the R side of the group.

+1 you're pulling to the right, and you want me to pull through on the left.

botto
01-22-08, 08:33 AM
Yes, but on which side? On the flicked side? Or the opposite side?

Perhaps my poll wording wasn't clear.

the side that the paceline/breakaway is rotating.

recursive
01-22-08, 08:36 AM
Well, that appears to be a concensus. And it's what I thought. Maybe I was reading the Prehn wrong.

Oh, and my elbow is sexy btw.

waterrockets
01-22-08, 08:57 AM

wfrogge
01-22-08, 09:10 AM
I have always used my elbow to signal the direction im pulling off to. One damn good reason to do this is if you are in a staggered paceline the folks behind you can easly see your signal. The very few track riders that I know signal the same way and we also did the same with inline speedskating. I like the signal not for saftey but to get ready....

To add..... its usually obvious (due to wind, traffic, others that have pulled off before me) what direction the leader will pull off to so I if im wrong with my elbow flick thats prob why nobody has made it an issue.

carpediemracing
01-22-08, 09:13 AM
Too funny. Sexy elbows et al.

Usually you flick the elbow on the side where you want the guy behind you to go. Reason being is that you virtually never had a direct headwind so the guy in second spot is slightly staggered to one side or the other. If the guy is to your left, he may not see you flick your right. And technically, if the guy behind is to your left, the guy in front should pull off to the right (windward side, if that's the correct term).

I rarely pull off on the wind side as I die in wind (in races or hard group rides). Best way to accomplish this safely is to not get near the front.

pull through only on slower rides,
cdr

TRaffic Jammer
01-22-08, 09:19 AM
Elbow ... pull through.
Point .. I'm goin' or watch out (hopefully with a "hole" yell)

YMCA
01-22-08, 09:45 AM
I can't believe this poll made it onto the racing forum.
Which elbow to flick is basic first week paceline knowledge.
I'm sure Prehn's book was a typo, or overlook.

carpediemracing
01-22-08, 09:51 AM
I have Prehn's book but it's in a box in storage somewhere. Else I'd check. I like his book the best among the recent spate of "bike racing" books (as opposed to training books).

I picked one "bike racing" book up at the store and flipped through it. I saw a picture of a guy descending in a very tame tuck and the caption said "for the foolhardy or very confident" or something like that. Slap that puppy right back on the shelf. If a lame *** tuck is "for the foolhardy" I don't know how the author can justify someone actually starting a mass start race.

cdr

Homebrew01
01-22-08, 10:02 AM
I don't do either elbow. If I'm on the front, that fact that I just shifted over 2 feet should make it clear to the next guy that it's time to pull through. Never been a problem. To me, the elbow is only needed for guys who don't "get it", or are wheel sucking in a race.

Keith99
01-22-08, 10:04 AM
My riding is social and this is rarely done... but... I've done a few doubles and that put me in the same social group as the other nuts, that includes one lady in the club who did Paris Brest Paris and got a coach to be ready to do it right. Forget who it was, not a big name, but a formet TDF rider. At one point they worked on pacelines. I was one asked to help, help meaning you can't practice pacelines with 2, so about 4 more of us showed up for a free lesson and as bodies. According to him..

Pull through on the side of the elbow flick.

MDcatV
01-22-08, 10:09 AM
I don't do either elbow. If I'm on the front, that fact that I just shifted over 2 feet should make it clear to the next guy that it's time to pull through. Never been a problem. To me, the elbow is only needed for guys who don't "get it", or are wheel sucking in a race.

I agree with this, I cant remember the last time I was doing any elbow flicking that wasnt when in a race breakaway situation where I (stupidly) got myself stuck on the front.

recursive
01-22-08, 10:11 AM
I can't believe this poll made it onto the racing forum.
Which elbow to flick is basic first week paceline knowledge.
I'm sure Prehn's book was a typo, or overlook.

Have mercy on us n00bs, oh great seasoned and knowledged bicycle beast.

In my defense, I did have it right, but I was confused after reading otherwise (I think?) in an otherwise excellent book.

bitingduck
01-22-08, 10:18 AM
The very few track riders that I know signal the same way and we also did the same with inline speedskating. I like the signal not for saftey but to get ready....

Most track riders I know (and it's a lot...) don't flick elbows-- they check quickly over their shoulder in the direction they're about to go, then they go. I know at least one coach who discourages the elbow flick because it's easy to misinterpret-- there are plenty of riders who are just kind of twitchy and always seem like they're flicking their elbows.

NoRacer
01-22-08, 10:20 AM
I can't believe this poll made it onto the racing forum.
Which elbow to flick is basic first week paceline knowledge.
I'm sure Prehn's book was a typo, or overlook.

ilpirata87
01-22-08, 11:06 AM
yeh i read the same thing in the prehn book and noticed it as well. it must be a typo.

curveship
01-22-08, 11:28 AM
yeh i read the same thing in the prehn book and noticed it as well. it must be a typo.

Not a typo, just not terribly clear writing. I had it on my desk to loan to a new racer, so here's the quote:

You should always use your elbow to signal the direction you're pulling off to. This is because if there were any slight crosswind, the riders following, staggered downwind, would easily see the signal.
"Signal" doesn't mean "point to." And the second sentence makes it clear that you signal on the side the other rider is pulling through.

waterrockets
01-22-08, 11:39 AM
I have always used my elbow to signal the direction im pulling off to. One damn good reason to do this is if you are in a staggered paceline the folks behind you can easly see your signal.

This doesn't add up. In an echelon, you pull out into the wind so you don't sweep the rider overlapping you on the downwind side. A rider on the downwind side can't see your upwind elbow.

botto
01-22-08, 11:44 AM
I have always used my elbow to signal the direction im pulling off to. One damn good reason to do this is if you are in a staggered paceline the folks behind you can easly see your signal. The very few track riders that I know signal the same way and we also did the same with inline speedskating. I like the signal not for saftey but to get ready....

To add..... its usually obvious (due to wind, traffic, others that have pulled off before me) what direction the leader will pull off to so I if im wrong with my elbow flick thats prob why nobody has made it an issue.

if the guy behind me doesn't know when it's his turn to take over, i do a little more than flick my elbow. ;)

Cypress
01-22-08, 12:04 PM
I voted wrong.

Homebrew01
01-22-08, 12:49 PM
And furthermore ! ........... If the guy in front of me flicks his elbow as he pulls over, I feel like saying "DUH !! I can see you pulling over, enough with the elbows."

YMCA
01-22-08, 02:58 PM
I can't believe how many people voted wrong.
Probably the same people that put their left arms up at a 90 degree to signal a right turn, as though they were in a car.

recursive
01-22-08, 03:00 PM
I can't believe how many people voted wrong.
Probably the same people that put their left arms up at a 90 degree to signal a right turn, as though they were in a car.

Good thing someone made a thread to bring this lurking problem to light! Thanks OP! BTW you have sexy elbows!

bdcheung
01-22-08, 03:20 PM
This doesn't add up. In an echelon, you pull out into the wind so you don't sweep the rider overlapping you on the downwind side. A rider on the downwind side can't see your upwind elbow.

I feel like we should be using the terms "leeward" and "windward".

cmh
01-23-08, 05:50 PM
I feel like we should be using the terms "leeward" and "windward".

When riding into the morning sun in the presence of a norther, flick your starboard elbow and move slightly to the port side, signaling the rider astern to pass on the curb side (North American riding only).

Is that clear?

wfrogge
01-23-08, 10:12 PM
This doesn't add up. In an echelon, you pull out into the wind so you don't sweep the rider overlapping you on the downwind side. A rider on the downwind side can't see your upwind elbow.

The more I think about it its rare that I ever signal at all.

Bob Dopolina
01-24-08, 02:34 AM
I usually just flick the fingers of my hand (which indicates that I want the rider to pull through) and I slide over into the wind. They should know which side to come through on. I mean the whole elbow thing is a bit dramatic, don't you think?

If I want to change the direction the group is rotating in I go to the front and make a circling gesture with my hand in the direction I want us to rotate. I'll do the same thing if we're riding in a pace line and I want to start an echelon. Then I pull off the the new direction of rotation to start the process.

Pasqually
01-24-08, 05:07 AM
Lots of elbow flicks on the track indicating to swing up.

I think the head check does the trick myself.

carpediemracing
01-24-08, 06:52 AM
Probably the same people that put their left arms up at a 90 degree to signal a right turn, as though they were in a car.

Isn't that a motorcycle? Because you'd have to take your hand off the throttle to signal with your right hand. At least that's what I thought.

rode for about 3 minutes on a motorcycle but I did get a permit,
cdr

carpediemracing
01-24-08, 06:56 AM
I think elbows are good in oxygen debt situations. I quickly get to a point where it's hard for me to focus on what's going on around me (tip - if I seem aware of my surroundings in a race, I am feeling "strong"). So a more subtle sign (I also use fingers, ditto a subtle elbow twitch, or simply move over and coast, etc) sometimes doesn't register.

In addition, if I'm struggling, I'll pretend not to see the signal to pull through. Or I'll look at the guy (who's by now turned around to see who the f ck isn't pulling through) and stare at him straight in the eye and not pull through. An elbow flick at least shows the other guys around that the lead rider is looking for the second rider to pull through.

It's not always about the second rider in line - it's also about the riders in the general vicinity.

cdr

YMCA
01-24-08, 07:32 AM
Isn't that a motorcycle? Because you'd have to take your hand off the throttle to signal with your right hand. At least that's what I thought.

rode for about 3 minutes on a motorcycle but I did get a permit,
cdr

Yes, but cars without turn signals working also, as nobody will see you point a right arm inside the vehicle.

carpediemracing
01-24-08, 10:43 AM
Yes, but cars without turn signals working also, as nobody will see you point a right arm inside the vehicle.

haha I have to think outside the box.

cdr