Your post inspired me to check the original National Geographic article. I found that I was wrong, the "true cost" of gas is a lot more than twice the pump price. At the time of publication (June, 2004) a gallon of gas cost $1.57 (Ah the good old days--2004 ;)).

The true cost by NG's estimate was $4.03:

HIDDEN GAS COSTS = $2.46

Leaking oil from refineries = .02Risk of macronoeconomic disruptions = .12Global warming cost of carbon emissions = .12Local pollution; health effect = .40Traffic accidents = .80Congestion, time wasted, fuel wasted = 1.00_______________________

U.S. GAS COSTS = $1.57

State & Federal taxes (avg.) = 27%Crude oil = 48%Refining = 15%Distrib. & mktg. = 10%

And I don't think that includes the mega bucks in tax breaks and incentives that have been given to the oil companies for research and other "improvements" that they have failed to complete.

Aaron:)

And I don't think that includes the mega bucks in tax breaks and incentives that have been given to the oil companies for research and other "improvements" that they have failed to complete.

Aaron:)

Nor does it count the cost of the war in Iraq. I estimate 60 % of that debacle could be chalked up to oil lust.

Nor does it count the cost of the war in Iraq. I estimate 60 % of that debacle could be chalked up to oil lust.
Weren't both Iraq wars 100% oil-centric? What other angle is there in having troops in Iraq besides the desire to control the world petroleum resource? So the total cost of the war should probably be covered by those who need the resource.... you need to revise those figures upward.

I was just thinking since no one wants to pay more gas taxes, how are we going to pay for our roads which are getting more and more expensive? Suppose everyone swiches to electric cars, wer're going to have major shortfalls in revenue for road maintenance and new construction. Guess where the money is going to come from? TAXES! (City, State, Local, Sales, 1040 taxes!)

slagjumper,
Couple of counter points...

Economy cars use less fuel and pay less tax...they are also much lighter by design and will not abuse and damage the roadways at nearly the same rate as a heavier vehicle (currently the auto driver subsidizes the damage caused by heavy trucks) IIRC the numbers a single 80,000# truck rolling over a given portion of roadway causes as much damage as 5,000 regular cars (at say an average weight of 5k#).

Most local roads are built and at least partially maintained by revenue generated from property taxes and in some cases sales taxes. All of which are paid by car free individuals and cyclists. So we do pay our way even if we don't own or operate a motor vehicle.

Aaron:)

These are good points. Another one is that the reduced consumption because of increases in efficiency will be replaced by more cars on the road. Not because of efficiency, just because of population growth. So if the car gets 30% better fuel economy tax will be paid by a new car owner. So even though there are more efficient cars, there will be more of them and so no loss, if not a gain in revenue.

I am talking about federal and state roads that are not paid for by municipal taxes. Since these local road actually bear more traffic and damage than the interstates, it is sad that more federal and state money does not do to keep them running.

In PA the privatization issue relates to turning the PA turnpike over to a private corp. to run. Also I’ve heard of a similar plan to develop a loop around Dallas, then turn it over to a private company that will run it as a for profit toll way.
--
Here's a challenge to the no tax folks--
Asside from appeals to Adam Smith or Ain Rand why not tax fuel more, if that money would go to road imporvements not overhead?

slagjumper,
There are a couple of toll roads in the Richmond, VA area. One I am almost positive was built with private dollars and will be a toll road until the end of time. The others that are there I believe were built with local funds and are paid for and the upkeep provided by the tolls. I also know that I-95 thru Richmond was a toll road for quite a while to help to raise funds to pay for the I-295 bypass around Richmond, and now the toll booths are gone. In some cases the tolls are worthwhile and are used to maintain the roads.

I believe that the NJ turnpike is such a road. I have driven both it and the parallel I-95 and the NJTP was in a much better state of repair from what I recall. Toll roads have their place if they are properly managed and not used as a revenue grab by government.

Aaron:)

I'd hate to live in a place where I had to use an expensive, short toll road frequently. As far as gas taxes go, I bet most people dont even know how much they pay in state per-gallon fuel tax.

2007 State Fuel Tax Chart (http://www.taxadmin.org/FTA/rate/motor_fl.html)

I'd hate to live in a place where I had to use an expensive, short toll road frequently. As far as gas taxes go, I bet most people dont even know how much they pay in state per-gallon fuel tax.

2007 State Fuel Tax Chart (http://www.taxadmin.org/FTA/rate/motor_fl.html)

Most of them don't know how much they spend on fuel period!:rolleyes: in a year. There was a comment about that on another thread. A car light person commented on only spending $340 or so a year on gas and a co-worker thought that was a lot of money. But I would be willing to bet that co-worker spends at least the much every 6 weeks or so on gas.

Aaron:)

slagjumper,
There are a couple of toll roads in the Richmond, VA area. One I am almost positive was built with private dollars and will be a toll road until the end of time. The others that are there I believe were built with local funds and are paid for and the upkeep provided by the tolls. I also know that I-95 thru Richmond was a toll road for quite a while to help to raise funds to pay for the I-295 bypass around Richmond, and now the toll booths are gone. In some cases the tolls are worthwhile and are used to maintain the roads.

I believe that the NJ turnpike is such a road. I have driven both it and the parallel I-95 and the NJTP was in a much better state of repair from what I recall. Toll roads have their place if they are properly managed and not used as a revenue grab by government.

Aaron:)

You're talking about the Pocahantas Parkway. Revenue has been way less than anticipated, and the company managing it reportedly wants to raise the toll, in addition to increasing traffic by building some new exits leading into new (ie not yet built) sub-divisions and the airport. I believe what will happen is the state will probably wind up footing the bill on this one. My gut tells me it's another shaft thru the wallet of Virginians, courtesy Jim Gilmore.

I believe the 195/downtown expressway tolls are gone, though I haven't been on the road in several years, despite living in RVA and riding downtown on a nearly daily basis (no bikes). They're still on the Powhite Parkway to southside, though.

Building a road with taxpayer dollars, then giving it away still bugs the hell out of me.

If you can't afford to build it, don't. If you can't afford to maintain it, don't build it.

If a private company can't afford to buy, build, and maintain a road, that just proves the economic flaw of these highways in the first place.

Generally, you're not talking about interstates, necessary for commerce. You're usually talking about suburb-enablers. Bridges and roads that allow the people who have chosen to live in bum**** to get to work. What is our motivation for enabling these people? I'm just not seeing it.

Tolls are coming folks.

Gas taxes are being rejected by Republicans and Democrates but tolls roads and selling off highways to private investors (who will build tolls) is seen as the next alternative. I still think if you tax the hell out of gas and make it very expensive (10 dollar tax) it will have the same effect as a costly toll.



No it doesn't, if there are alternative (probably slower) routes that circumvent the toll. For example, let's say you charge a toll on an expressway. People that are willing to pay and have the resources to pay will probably take the expressway. The rest of us will probably just start taking alternative routes to circumvent the toll. Further, big SUVs will probably pay the same toll as a Toyota Prius.

If you tax the gas, every commuter will pay the "toll" so to speak. And SUVs will be hit more than the Toyota Prius, so it encourages people to drive more fuel-efficient cars. Also, toll roads have higher maintenance and initial setup costs than "free" roads. Not so much with a gas tax.

I traveled over 2 bridges and 1 tunnel and paid close to $18.00 dollars in tolls and $10.00 dollars in gas for a three hour ride last weekend. It was the first time I've driven in close to a year but I was amazed at how expensive motoring has become. More reason to become car free.

The problem with your example, is that most places don't have 1 or 2 bridges/tunnels through which everyone has to go through, and there are no alternative routes. Such tolls only work in select cities like SF, NYC, etc.