Touring - Ortlieb Classic vs Plus fabric

Have you considered that the "big bang" "explosion" that scientists believe they have detected could have been simply when God created everything? And that it wasn't billions of years ago (google the fallacy of carbon dating)?

If you accept that you can't explain the origin of energy or the reason for the "explosion" from science, you by default have accepted that there is a supernatural being. You have confirmed that God exists.

BTW.... you have more to lose here. If I'm wrong, I've lost nothing. If you're wrong, you go to hell.

First of all, carbon dating only works on the timescale of thousands of years. Carbon isotopes decay over time, until you get to a point where the difference in the amount of carbon 12 and 14 is so small that it no longer is useful for dating things. Other isotopic dating methods, using isotopes with longer half lives, are used for dating things on longer timescales. But that is neither here nor there, as there are no isotopic dating methods that could establish the age of the universe in the first place. Isotopic dating requires the existence of heavy elements, and the big bang theory predicates that no heavy elements exist at the beginning of the universe in the first place. What scientists do to measure the age of the universe is get very big telescopes that can look extremely far (and looking far also means looking back in time, as light travels at a finite speed, so the further away a things is that you are looking at, the longer ago the light that you are observing was emitted).

No, a supernatural being is inherently more complex than any other possible explanation for the origin of the universe. Science can't simply rule out the possible existence of some kind of intelligent creator, but there is not a single shred of evidence to indicate that some kind of complex mind is behind the origin of the universe. And an infinite number of competing hypotheses are just as valid as the judeo-christian god hypothesis, such as the flying spaghetti monster hypothesis. So jumping from "we don't yet know the ultimate cause or source of the universe," to "the lack of knowledge is an obvious indication that the universe must have been created by something that we cannot know," is a fallacy in and of itself. But it is an even greater magnification of that fallacy to then jump to the further conclusion that the origin of the universe is not only unknowable, but it's origin must be due to a specific being, about which people people claim to have knowledge, even though you are basing your entire argument on the basis that the origins of the universe are ultimately unknowable. You can't have it both ways.

And it's not exactly true that you lose nothing if christianity is confirmed in it's falsehood. You have to factor in the opportunity cost of time wasted in worshiping a false deity. But don't for a minute think that Pascal's wager is going to sway anybody other than the weak minded. That argument has been rejected by philosophers and theologians for centuries. And anyway, you run the same risk as a christian that an atheist does. If it turns out that another religious doctrine is correct, and that you have been worshiping the wrong god all along, your punishment would be just as great as the punishment would be for an atheist if a christian god did exist.

...Other isotopic dating methods, using isotopes with longer half lives, are used for dating things on longer timescales. But that is neither here nor there, as there are no isotopic dating methods that could establish the age of the universe in the first place...

This is incorrect.

Read the wikipedia entry for "Radiometric dating."

{thread hijack mode fully engaged**

It is actually not ridiculous. See Genesis. The earth was in fact, made for us only days before the first man was created. This earth is not some accident of evolution or whatever other convoluted theory modern science is pushing these days. I am in in fact a scientist myself and used to buy into the whole evolution thing until I did some research. There are so many holes in the whole "big bang" theory. I could spend 2 hours talking about them all.



Please take your proselytizing elsewhere.

Man, Neil! To think this all could have been avoided had you only gotten some Arkels instead! ;>)

Read the wikipedia entry for "Radiometric dating."

To what you are referring is ambiguous. However, in a previous post brotherdan said "...there are no isotopic dating methods that could establish the age of the universe in the first place...". In fact, isotopes of rhenium-187 has a half life of the order of the age of the universe, decaying to osmium-187 with a half life of 46 billion years. This can be used to corroborate other methods to give an age of about 15 billion years.

Al Gore and the UN invented Global Warming anyway. Get the PVC. Don't worry about the cat thing, they are ecologically unsound anyway with all the cat litter going to land fills.

R.C.

To what you are referring is ambiguous. However, in a previous post brotherdan said "...there are no isotopic dating methods that could establish the age of the universe in the first place...". In fact, isotopes of rhenium-187 has a half life of the order of the age of the universe, decaying to osmium-187 with a half life of 46 billion years. This can be used to corroborate other methods to give an age of about 15 billion years.

I thought you were questioning the very idea that there are other types of radiometric dating beyond carbon dating.

I had never even heard of rhenium before. I guess that would be a good way to calibrate other methods of determining the age of the universe. It's not likely that any elements of that weight were present until at least several million years after the big bang, though. But measuring rhenium/osmium ratios could help to make sure that we're in the right ball park.

Don't get me wrong; I have a feeling more people will be compelled to buy PVC by my constant arguments against it than dissuaded. But, I had to say it. It's the truth, and someone's gotta say it.

Personally I had no idea how bad PVC was for the environment until I read this thread I'm in the market for everything, a bike, racks, panniers, and I was planning on getting the Ortleib classics but now I'm thinking the Plus would be the wiser way to go. Looking forward to a time when a good set of waterproof hemp panniers are made (preferably in an ethical way).

Personally I had no idea how bad PVC was for the environment until I read this thread I'm in the market for everything, a bike, racks, panniers, and I was planning on getting the Ortleib classics but now I'm thinking the Plus would be the wiser way to go. Looking forward to a time when a good set of waterproof hemp panniers are made (preferably in an ethical way).

Thank you. If one person has read this thread and decided to make a thoughtful and considered choice based on more than just their wants, then it has accomplished something.

So many comments have been made here that individual actions do not matter because they have such a small impact on the total situation. I believe that each of us must make wise choices and not rely on "everyone else" to solve a problem. Of course a product's functionality, practicality and cost must be weighed, but please add environmental factors to the decision matrix.

Now, perhaps this thread should be renamed as The OTHER "PostThat Never Ends" :)
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=284442&highlight=ends+thread+never

So many comments have been made here that individual actions do not matter because they have such a small impact on the total situation. I believe that each of us must make wise choices and not rely on "everyone else" to solve a problem. Of course a product's functionality, practicality and cost must be weighed, but please add environmental factors to the decision matrix.

I may be reiterating what has already been said but...

One individual's actions don't matter that much. But if enough (not all, just enough) people make the decision to do the right thing when it comes to their buying habits then two things happen, the products that are better for the environment and or the people that make them become more widely available, and the price of those products drops. Basically, our economy is driven by the market, if the market for goods that destroy the environment dries up manufacturers will stop making them, and move to more ecologically sound products and methods of manufacture. Everyone has a personal responsibility to do the right thing.

Are your front classic style panniers the rolltop kind? If so, I'm curious as to how the classic pvc has dealt with the frequent rolling. I've heard that it has a tendency to weaken in areas of constant folding because it is stiffer, which eventually causes those spots to fatigue....

Neil

I have a pair of Ortlieb roll tops that I bought used 12 years ago and no creasing or cracking has occurred with them, They don't leak even in the heaviest downpours. I once was touring with a group of 11 in Quebec. It rained for 4 days straight, everyone's gear was soaked but mine. I probably could have sold those panniers for $1000 .

I have a pair of Ortlieb roll tops that I bought used 12 years ago and no creasing or cracking has occurred with them, They don't leak even in the heaviest downpours. I once was touring with a group of 11 in Quebec. It rained for 4 days straight, everyone's gear was soaked but mine. I probably could have sold those panniers for $1000 .

Thanks! That's encouraging. I think Ortlieb USA is going to be supplying me with a new set of Classic roll-top panniers, a Classic handlebar bag and a Classic rack bag. I'm looking forward to using this gear and comparing it with my old "Plus" panniers. Should be interesting!

[QUOTE=kdiehl;6173156]Thank you. If one person has read this thread and decided to make a thoughtful and considered choice based on more than just their wants, then it has accomplished something. QUOTE]

Right, convince the large construction companies to stop using PVC than you've accomplished something.
But changing somebodys mind from buying a quality set of panniers that will not need replacing for the next 15 years or more is something else, like a drop in the ocean. I guess as long as you feel beter than its OK :D

Right, convince the large construction companies to stop using PVC than you've accomplished something.
But changing somebodys mind from buying a quality set of panniers that will not need replacing for the next 15 years or more is something else, like a drop in the ocean. I guess as long as you feel beter than its OK :D

This is a mindset which plagues so many people, the old 'One person can't make a difference'.

Wake up.

This is a mindset which plagues so many people, the old 'One person can't make a difference'.

Wake up.

Actually the problem I see with this classic vs plus pannier discussion is people making decsions without any information to substantiate it. Does anyone actually know:

- what environmental impacts result from the manufacturing of classic and plus material?
- the performance & lifespan of each type of pannier?
- what environmental impacts result from disposal of each material?

I'm not talking about a Wikkipedia entry, but some up to date information on these factors. If not then people aren't making a decision at all - they are guessing that the classic material is a worse choice than the plus, but they have no idea.

Xilios' point is valid that if you feel better buying a set of Ortlieb Plus panniers go for it - there is nothing wrong with that, but don't pretend like you actually know what the impacts are when your only source of information is a few lines of text in a bicycle forum or Wikkipedia.

The EU has taken a hard stand on many environmental issues and given the widespread use of PVC has done a lot of work on the safety of this material. I'd recommend this site which discusses (http://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/pvc/index.htm) many of the key issues and in particular this life cycle analysis of PVC (http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/chemicals/sustdev/pvc-final_report_lca.pdf).

I'm not suggesting you go one way or another, but at least arm yourself with some current in depth information before you choose or just admit your making an emotional decision not a factual one.

This is a mindset which plagues so many people, the old 'One person can't make a difference'.

Wake up.


Yawn...............

Since Neil's thread has been hopelessly hijacked already...


It's easy to get disillusioned. But I think your heart is in the right place. Why would you tour by bicycle if you weren't compassionate about environmental impacts? I don't think most people are doing this for the sore ass.

1. It's about the journey, not the destination.
2. Traveling alone in a car for several days stinks.
3. It is great excercise which allows me to eat lots of cookies and ice cream without gaining weight.
Just to list a few reasons.
Don't assume everyone you see bicycle touring/commuting has drunk the Kool-aid Al Gore is handing out. Some of us are conservative, gun toting rednecks who drive pickups and kill, butcher, & eat animals, and cut down & burn trees to heat our homes in the winter.:eek::p

people still think it's OK to have pizzas delivered to their house. But people do things that deleteriously impact the sustainability of our society all the time. Mostly, I think, it's due to a lack of education and societal norms that are shaped by marketing.

The pizza delivery option isn't the worst unless you live walking distance. They don't usually deliver one pizza at a time thus saving car trips if the delivery option wasn't offered.

Don't assume everyone you see bicycle touring/commuting has drunk the Kool-aid Al Gore is handing out. Some of us are conservative, gun toting rednecks who drive pickups and kill, butcher, & eat animals, and cut down & burn trees to heat our homes in the winter.:eek::p

Yeah, good thing Al Gore invented Fuzzy math, the internet, fuzzy science with "Inconvenient Half-Truth". His campaign for NAFTA caused the loss of hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs in the US.

See Ross Perot SCHOOL Gore in the great NAFTA debate of 1993 on Lary King LIve. Watch all 8 parts here. (http://www.youtube.com/user/naftafailure) It's hillariously funny and everything Ross Perot said came true. GORE=MORON

Hi, I'm going to be in the market for a new set of Ortlieb panniers soon, and currently I'm pondering the choice between the Classic (thick pvc) and Plus (thin coated cordura). I know the "conventional wisdom" is that the Plus is supposed to actually be tougher, but I have read the odd comment here and there that implies the Classic material might actually be more tough in the real world. The Plus is supposed to put up with being rolled up regularly better, but I've read that the Plus doesn't dry as fast, and holds onto mud and dirt more, whereas the Classic is much easier to wash off, and is, well, thicker.

I have had a set of the front & back roller plus since 1998, and did a TransAm with them back then. They seemed fine, of course. A pitbull put a hole in one of my rear ones, which I recently sent back to Ortlieb USA to have professionally fixed. They said the bag was unrepairable, due to the large amount of Seam Grip goop I had put on the thing for the temp repair. But they also said that there turned out to be a number of "pinhole" tears elsewhere on the bag. It just makes me wonder if the thicker Classic material might actually be tougher.

Anybody got any insights there?

Thanks!

Neil

I now have received a set of Classic panniers from Ortlieb, and have some initial impressions. There is a "feature" of the Classic fabric that nobody seems to have mentioned thus far, which is that because of its thickness, it is harder to close the pannier in the same way that I close my old Plus roller bags. With those, I would roll up the bag, and then simply bring the two buckles together at the top to fasten. With the Classics, this seems to be much more difficult - the thick material crinkles in such a way that it would make me worry about stress. I had not thought about this being an issue before. Maybe it'll be different once I pack them up "for real" and maybe they will soften up a bit after use, but this is just an initial impression. I think I'll have to use the "official" method which utilizes the shoulder strap buckled to the rolltop and then tucked under the little hook on the side of the bag. I never used this up to now because it seems overly fussy and the strap always seems to want to fall into the dirt when you open the bags.

Another thing that struck me is that the Classic panniers do not use the shiny PVC fabric all the way around the bag. It only seems to be on the inside and outside panels (i.e. the ones facing out to the side and inward to the rack). The front and rear facing panels appear to be made of black cordura fabric, same as the Plus but courser thread. I would think this would negate one of the previously stated advantages of the Classics, which was that the shiny PVC doesn't hold dirt and water as much as the cordura on the Plus.

All in all, having played with these bags a bit, I might say that from a pure usability point of view, the thinner Plus fabric is probably easier to work with when rolling up the panniers. I'm somewhat surprised that nobody brought this up. The debate veered off into environmentalism, which is fine as far as it goes but I was really interested in durability, usability and functionality. I'm sure these bags will work just fine, since so many people use them all over the world... as I said, these are simply some initial impressions. In the future, I'd probably stump for the Plus, for what it's worth, if only because of the easier rolling up. I'll be curious to see how I like these bags on my upcoming trip from St Louis over to Oregon.

And now, you can get back to your regularly scheduled rants about the evils of PVC, Al Gore and religion.

Thanks,

/Neil

I now have received a set of Classic panniers from Ortlieb, and have some initial impressions. There is a "feature" of the Classic fabric that nobody seems to have mentioned thus far, which is that because of its thickness, it is harder to close the pannier in the same way that I close my old Plus roller bags. With those, I would roll up the bag, and then simply bring the two buckles together at the top to fasten. With the Classics, this seems to be much more difficult - the thick material crinkles in such a way that it would make me worry about stress. I had not thought about this being an issue before. Maybe it'll be different once I pack them up "for real" and maybe they will soften up a bit after use,

Another thing that struck me is that the Classic panniers do not use the shiny PVC fabric all the way around the bag. It only seems to be on the inside and outside panels (i.e. the ones facing out to the side and inward to the rack). The front and rear facing panels appear to be made of black cordura fabric, same as the Plus but courser thread. I would think this would negate one of the previously stated advantages of the Classics, which was that the shiny PVC doesn't hold dirt and water as much as the cordura on the Plus.

All in all, having bought these bags and played around with them a bit, I might say that from a pure usability point of view, the thinner Plus fabric is probably easier to work with when rolling up the panniers. I'm somewhat surprised that nobody brought this up. ..... I'm sure these bags will work just fine, since so many people use them all over the world... as I said, these are simply some initial impressions. In the future, I'd probably stump for the Plus, for what it's worth, if only because of the easier rolling up.

And now, you can get back to your regularly scheduled rants about the evils of PVC, Al Gore and religion.

Thanks,

/Neil

I have had my bags for so long I'm used to the "official method" I haven't had any problems rolling the tops closed and as I said previously no stress fractures in the pvc coating after 12 years. I would note that the tops are easier to roll up tight on a hot day as opposed to a cold day. The method I use to access the panniers while on the bike is to stand on the opposite side of the bike and let the bike rest against my knees while I get what I need , when I roll the top back up I have two hands free al and I roll it up like a big ole doobie.

http://www.johnnyjet.com/image/PictureForNewsletterMalaysiaPangkorSpaChineseBigJointForTreatment.JPG

I gotta go, I forgot and left my Al Gore books in my PVC coated pannier at church

I have had my bags for so long I'm used to the "official method" I haven't had any problems rolling the tops closed and as I said previously no stress fractures in the pvc coating after 12 years. I would note that the tops are easier to roll up tight on a hot day as opposed to a cold day. The method I use to access the panniers while on the bike is to stand on the opposite side of the bike and let the bike rest against my knees while I get what I need , when I roll the top back up I have two hands free al and I roll it up like a big ole doobie.

I'm curious how you handle the strap method. So when you unbuckle the panniers to open them, do you unbuckle both ends of the strap and let it hang down as it sits in that little hook? Doesn't it tend to fall out of the hook? And then when you roll the bags up, do you simply do the roll, and then reach down and grap the strap, buckle one end, then reach down and get the other end and buckle that? Seems like a lot more work than simply bringing the two buckles on the rolltop together. That, to me, would be a single factor that might make me go to the Plus. But maybe I'm just being stupid and missing something obvious here - is there a quick and easy way to buckle these panniers using the strap, as it always seems to be displayed in the pictures?

Thanks!

/Neil

I have both back and front classic rollers. I roll the tops closed and snap the strap and hook it under the plastic attachment at the bottom of the panniers. When I open them, I unclick one of the strap connectors, unroll the bag, do my business, roll the bag back up, and connect the clip I unclicked. Seems to work easily once you get the hang of it.

I have found that the sliding plastic shoulder pad-thingy on the strap gets wedged in the lower clip, holding the whole strap in place so that it all works easily. I occasionally have to untwist the strap, but, for the most part, the same number of unrolls are matched with the rolls so the strap remains just right.

Ray

Attempting to drag this back on topic...


As far as I can tell, the Classic material is quite a bit tougher in that respect than the Plus. So then it becomes a question of, What are you willing to put up with?

I can't personally provide information about Ortlieb's Plus material. I have used other waterproofed Cordura nylon products and been fairly pleased. One of my Christmas presents this year was a new backpack. It replaced a 16 year old waterproof Cordura backpack that I'd used heavily from 8th grade through college (and beyond). It continued to be reasonably waterproof for the initial 10 years, despite being driven over by a minivan and getting some tears. I would not have used it as a dry sack after that, but it was really fairly decent.

So under normal use, waterproof Cordura was really pretty damn sturdy stuff 16 years ago. Unless you *plan* on overstuffing your panniers or having them get driven over, I would expect the modern version to hold up for more than 10 years. I regularly overstuffed my backpack with books and did not see any abrasion damage except at the tears.

umm, I think dioxins are actually worse than traveling in an RV--unless there's more PVC in an RV than the PVC bags.

Dioxins are just nasty.


And, I'm a little surprised (level of 'WTF') at the analogy about poor in other countries taking apart computers and being exposed to toxins? Oy! The computer situation is NOT relevant to panniers. Double Oy!

In the case of panniers, we have a choice. No PVC or PVC.

In the case of computers, (I'm 99% certain) we don't have a choice of materials being used. We can't order a mercury/lead/silicon/etc-free computer. We can do things like cut back on how many computers in our lifetime we own, replace parts instead of buying a new computer, do research on the companies who recycle computer parts and find out what type of OSHA standards they are following/not following, and/or determine how much is recycled overseas (and thus likely no OSHA standards being followed).

Attempting to use only poison-free computers would end many of our careers. Using PVC-free panniers won't end our careers, won't end our biking, and our stuff would still be dry.


It is okay to point out the effects of non-green products, but lets not condemn those who don't have the same point of view.

So your career is more important than the environment? Everyone draws the line in the sand a little differently.

My point is that nobody likes to be preached to.

Let's all get off our collective (low-phosphate) soapboxes and talk about bikes.

All in all, having played with these bags a bit, I might say that from a pure usability point of view, the thinner Plus fabric is probably easier to work with when rolling up the panniers. I'm somewhat surprised that nobody brought this up.

...snip...

Thanks,

/Neil

I've rolled the tops on my classic panniers many times in hot and cold temps and never noticed that they were hard to close nor had any issues with stress cracks. The older set of classic back rollers I gave to a friend are going strong at 10years+. That's why I didn't mention it - I haven't had a problem to date.

I've rolled the tops on my classic panniers many times in hot and cold temps and never noticed that they were hard to close nor had any issues with stress cracks. The older set of classic back rollers I gave to a friend are going strong at 10years+. That's why I didn't mention it - I haven't had a problem to date.

Hey Vik, we just got our new classics (and after a couple training rides are very happy with them). Since you've been using the classics for such a long time would you recomend closing them by making a loop over the top or using the shoulder strap. So far we've found it much simpler to just roll them up and make a loop over the top than having to deal with the strap.

It is okay to point out the effects of non-green products, but lets not condemn those who don't have the same point of view.

So your career is more important than the environment? Everyone draws the line in the sand a little differently.

I'm entitled to my opinion, just as you are.

Nope---never said that---read again carefully. PVC panniers are luxury items....we have other options. I aruged those options from many different points.

In contrast, currently, computers are not options for many people. Disassembling computers elsewhere---like making those who use computer disassemble them---that I like. But, that's a bit off-topic, probably should be in P&R, so I didn't go there.


My point is that nobody likes to be preached to.
Then don't.



Let's all get off our collective (low-phosphate) soapboxes and talk about bikes.

This is 100% about bikes and biking. Pollution is a major factor in the biking experience, especially bicycle touring. Bicycle tourist are probably closest to the environment, biking and living right in it, eating and drinking our way through it. As bicyclists, unless we are willing to bike through the dioxin-filled regions, then, I don't think we should be using PVC.

And, the thing about dioxins, it's very nasty stuff. It doesn't go away. Once we are off our bikes, we are still living in it, training for our next ride in it, carrying our stuff to work in it, buying energy bars and other groceries in it. Not good. Not good at all.

I don't know if it matters, but I think my one and only set of panniers will be the plus fabric, even if REI doesn't sell them

Hey Vik, we just got our new classics (and after a couple training rides are very happy with them). Since you've been using the classics for such a long time would you recomend closing them by making a loop over the top or using the shoulder strap. So far we've found it much simpler to just roll them up and make a loop over the top than having to deal with the strap.

Glad you are enjoying your new panniers - you'll still be enjoying them in 2020!...;) I've used them both ways and other than not having the carrying handle handy it doesn't really matter to me which I method I use. I don't find the shoulder strap particularly cumbersome, but my panniers see a lot of non-touring action as shopping bags where the carrying them with the strap makes sense.

I need to take myself back to the TransAm I did, and remember the big lesson I took away from that - keep it simple. I really, really liked my Ortlieb panniers on that trip. I guess I'm talking myself into getting the Rollers again, and I'm curious as to whether the Classics would be more durable... seems to me they might just be, kittens aside.

So now I just need to figure out just how I feel about kittens.

:roflmao2:

I just picked up a set of front roller classics to work with my rear Arkel's, which gives me the option of waterproof and breathability. The ortliebs are pvc, but so is my messenger bag and it's been a godsend considering the bad weather its been through (protecting books, laptop, ect.) I'm not saying that its justified, but I bike everywhere now and the damage caused by my purchase is minimal considering my, hopefully, lifetime commitment to cycling over driving.

This is 100% about bikes and biking. Pollution is a major factor in the biking experience, especially bicycle touring. Bicycle tourist are probably closest to the environment, biking and living right in it, eating and drinking our way through it. As bicyclists, unless we are willing to bike through the dioxin-filled regions, then, I don't think we should be using PVC.

And, the thing about dioxins, it's very nasty stuff. It doesn't go away. Once we are off our bikes, we are still living in it, training for our next ride in it, carrying our stuff to work in it, buying energy bars and other groceries in it. Not good. Not good at all.

Flower Blossom, I'd like to thank you for putting forward the anti-PVC argument in such a cogent, logical, reasoned manner.

I have the Carradice "Super C" panniers both front and rear on my bike, and I can assure anyone who might be worried about their ability to shed water that they work just fine without any PVC. I've been through several nasty storms with them, I always wash them off in the shower, and nary a drop has worked its way inside. While it's true that I live in a rather arid region, I've noticed that most of the British touring cyclists I see use them, too. If they can handle the nasty weather common to Great Britain, it seems to me they can handle just about anything.

I agree with you that there is no valid reason to buy PVC panniers when such a good alternative is available.

I just today received my carradice super c rear panniers and barbag to match the super C front panniers I have owned for years.

They are incredible. Durable, waterproof, handmade in England. Pricey, but they will last me a lifetime of heavy use. Highly reccommended

I have the Ortlieb Classic Back Rollers, and I never remove the strap. I leave it buckled when I am rolling and unrolling the bag.

Two things.

1) I have front roller clasics that I use on the rear rack. Love 'em. The strap bugs me a little too and I have recently started just clicking the two sides together over the top like many others. That bugs me a little too though. Don't know why.

2) This forum served as material in a post I did (http://rantwick.blogspot.com/2009/04/ortliebs-inferno-descent-into-cycling.html) in April of 2009 about "cycling forum hell"... perhaps the best example of a post getting hijacked and spinning out of control ever. Thanks to all who contributed.

...See Genesis. The earth was in fact, made for us only days before the first man was created...I am in in fact a scientist myself and used to buy into the whole evolution thing until I did some research...

This should go into Wikipedia as as the prime example of an oxymoron.

Anyhow , back on topic, Utilitarian Classics. weigh more and cost less .

than the Cordura Plus Fabric, which is Custom for the manufacturer,
the liner coating needs to have thermoplastic characteristics,
as that is how they are held together,

the coating is heated and the coating glues the seams together.