Just found this forum and it looks great. Thanks for letting me be part of your community. I have a Rodriguez AL 26 Tandem about 1990 vintage that I have been using on and off road for at least 15 years. It is time to upgrade components and I am looking for suggestions. I would like to keep total cost under $1k. Being a realist and knowing my stoker who I plan on keeping for many many years, I know we won't be going off road on this bike anymore. Currently the bike has a well used Shimano XT group on it. Flat mountain style bars and slicks. The shifting is getting sloppy and I would like to change out the whole drive train for starters. I would like to switch the bike to a road configuration (with 26 inch wheels). I have many questions but don't want to ramble. What are your thoughts on:
Drivetrain group- xt /105/something else?
Wheels- front disc or do I have to stick with the 90's vintage cantilevers
Can I get something more than the current 6 cog cluster in the rear.
Carbon fork?
Look forward to your input as I research the wealth of information you have on this forum.
"Looking for direction"
Tim
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
What's the rear drop-out spacing?
What size headset?
What kind of riding do you plan to do?
Do you want drop-bars or flat bars?
Are you your own mechanic or will you need someone to do the work?
Are you willing to buy second hand components to stay within your budget?
Aemmer
I will check spacing when I get home.
Believe headset is 1 and 1/8 will confirm when I get home.
Road riding on country roads around home. 1-5 hour rides with only few friends rarely group rides. We do do the ms 150 ride on the tandem and this year signed up for the Seattle to Vancouver ride.
Contemplating drop bars up front with change to drive train.
My own bike mechanic but I also have a great friend who owns a bike shop. He checks my work. Unfortunately he is 150 miles away. I feel comfortable working on my own bikes as long as it doesn't include turning spokes (the wrath of my aforementioned friend he banned me from this over 20 years ago).
I would not buy brake or drivetrain components used unless only very slightly.
Thanks again for your input
Tim
zonatandem
Upgrades can be co$tly, however deals can be found if you are not in a rush.
Getting new 'last year's' hot components can $ave.
For on the road, vintage cantis are fine or do V-brakes. Upgrade cassette/deraileurs/cranksets to what's available at a good price in the Shimano line.
New wheels aren't cheap and that will eat up 1/3 of your budget, at least. Got $$ left over? Maybe could get a c/f fork.
Check and see what your bikeshop friiend has sitting around in road bars, etc.
Check some of the on-line bargain places for components.
Good luck!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
swc7916
Take it back to R+E and ask Scott or Smiley for their advice.
Xanti Andia
First you need to decide if you are going to drop bars or not, then the range you want on the cassette (which will narrow down your rear derailleur choices), once that is decided you can ask some more questions. Sloppy gearing is more likely the result of chain / cassette /chain wheel wear and cable housings (all cheap) vs the derailleur and shifters themselves (more $). You might hold the derailleur changes for last, and go at the changes incrementally to see how each change affects your bike.
On a road group, I have 105 on my single 11-26 9sp cassette and Ultegra on the tandem with an XT rear derailleur on an 11-36 10sp cassette, and can't feel any appreciable difference in shifting between the two. Rear shifting on my road single is quicker but that is to be expected because of the tighter cluster. Difference between 105 and Ultegra might only be durability, which comes into play only if the tandem is going to do a lot of miles.
Rodriguez is a Campagnolo fan, if you will change the drivetrain you might think of Campy, more money but more eventual resale value if that is a consideration. Maybe call Rodriguez for suggestions.
specbill
This response got way longer than expected…. Sorry!
+1 on everything zonatandem said above particularly be patient and shop smart.
Additionally it is a bit challenging trying to offer specific suggestions for your upgrade project because we are all so different in our tandem related goals and set up preferences. However, fwiw I’m a couple of months into a major upgrade to my ’91 vintage Cannondale road tandem. I started the project with an original budget and original component group quite similar to yours.
Here are some random opinions I’ve developed through this process along with some specific upgrades performed and the reasons for doing them. I hope some of this may add some value.
Initially I insured there was a clear plan for what I wanted the bike to be when completed so that I would stay on track and avoid needless purchases. This forum, plus other sources found on thetandemlink.com and other sites helped me do a lot of valuable home work in that regard.
I ended up with four major upgrade areas for the project. In order of priority they were: Gearing – I wanted a 9 or 10 speed cassette instead of a 7 spd freewheel setup along with better gearing for hills to replace my original flatlander combination used when we lived in Long Beach, Brifters instead of ‘bar-end shifters’ because the older I get the more I hate moving my hands that far from the hoods or upper parts of the bars particularly on difficult surfaces, Carbon Fiber Fork for weight savings and comfort (‘ have them on my cross/touring bike and like them a lot), and Overall Weight Reduction of the bike to the extent my budget would allow for carbon bars – stems - seat posts etc because I love carbon fiber goodies…even if they are not all that cost effective. I specifically stayed away from super light weight wheelsets because I prefer bombproof stuff for the rough roads and remote locations that we ride. Regarding tires on our 700c’s, I followed the advice of Mark Johnson at Precision Tandems www.precisiontandems.com/arttiresbymark.htm (http://www.precisiontandems.com/arttiresbymark.htm) and have not regretted it one bit.
Regarding the issue of what level of components to consider….well.. it got pretty narrow for this project because the early ‘90’s XT component group and M730 cranks that were already on the bike were really good quality parts back in the day and still work well now. So I decided to replace them only with new or near current day XT/XTR or Dura Ace/Ultegra level components, otherwise I would feel like I was down grading my ride.
To insure I did the Brifters and Gearing upgrades with the correct combination of parts for my 140mm rear spacing I went with the help of an expert – Mel Kornbluh of Tandems East. His knowledge and help in this area was invaluable. I went with nos 9sp Dura Ace Brifters along with better ratio ramped and pinned, chain rings.
The hardest big money step for me was the rear wheel because my original and expensive (even in ’91) Phil Wood freewheel hub had to go and be replaced with a cassette compatible style hub. There was no other option if I was going to get the 9 sp cassette setup that I wanted. So I stepped up and asked Mel to build a bullet proof rear wheel with a new style Phil Wood hub. I could have gone with different brand of hubs and saved some money but I already choose Phil’s stuff on the bike originally and just could not step away from his quality products now and feel good about my upgrades.
On the weight savings side, I have a strong bias for Easton carbon stuff so E Bay has netted me several nice EC90 carbon pieces already mentioned and I continue searching for others, plus a certain XTR rear derailleur to replace my old, but still well functioning XT long cage.
I’ve given up on a Carbon fork replacement completely because my frame has a 1”steer tube and the only carbon forks I’ve found in that size are for single bikes and there is no way I would consider that, particularly on the roads we frequent with our tandem.
For brakes we did change out the original (and well performing) canti brakes for some V brakes (Avid SD 6’s) with travel agents for operating with STI. Probably won’t go the disc route if extra braking is required, just a lightened drum but could change my mind on that.
As you might have guessed by now, I have already slightly exceeded the $1k budget plan. Worse yet, I’m now considering a new and final phase of the project and that is lighter crank sets and BB’s. The BB’s are easy, they’ll be Phil’s in stainless for stoker and maybe Ti for the captain. The cranks are a tougher decision because, as I mentioned earlier, I’m a carbon junkie and might go that way but the daVinci’s are beautiful aluminum pieces that I really like sooo...well I still have time to decide on that one as I’m in no hurry to complete the process.
Finally, while I prefer new parts, I definitely do buy “near new” used pieces if the savings opportunities are in balance with the risk. I’ve used E bay since’02 and can be relentless chasing internet retailer for good buys. E Bay has produced great savings on numerous
carbon pieces that I would never pay full retail for, but there can be risk with E bay deals that must be mitigated with disciplined home work and a little good fortune.
Bottom line is I’m having fun doing the upgrades to our sound 90’s frame that we love. I’ll probably have $1500 or more in upgrades before I’m done. Cost effective??? Quite debatable for most folks I’m sure….but it works for me because I prefer doing my own work and riding the results. I do know that a comparably configured tandem in today’s market certainly could not be had for like money.
At the same time….it is safe to say that since the bike already performed quite well, particularly on the flats, with the original XT package and Phil Wood pieces, I certainly will never see a performance increase in balance with this much money but then I never expected to ..just getting a little better climbing and a little more comfortable ride and some cool new bits and pieces is satisfaction enough.
Good luck with your project and have fun. Let us know what you do and how it turns out.
Bill J.
Aemmer
real quick. Twice now I have written a book of information only to be logged out before i post (slow typist). I do appreciate all your input. I will try to reply in more depth when it isn't so far past my bedtime.
Short form:
140mm
1 1/8
Yes I want to change to drop bars.
TandemGeek
Appreciate the additional details on your current bike.
I went to Jenson USA for pricing and availability just as a ref. point for your budgeting purposes on a few things and then pulled a few others out of the thin air. But, in general, what you want to do is possible either buying new Yeoman's grade components, or a mix of second hand / take-offs from Ebay.
Drivetrain group- xt /105/something else: Shimano 105 9 speed STI would work fine ($160) with a Shimano XT M761 Top-Normal Rear Derailluer ($61) and a Shimano 105/FD5603 front derailleur ($40) unless your current XT model will work (50/50 chance). Any 9 speed MTB-grade cassette ($40) should work and, well, you'll need a new chain ($20). Your older cranks 'should' work with the 9 speed chains... but you'll probably want to change out the chain rings from the MTB sizes (48/36/24 or whatever came on it) to something more roadworthy (55/46/34) for a 26" road tandem. Sugino will probably be your best bet for 110 BCD chainrings in the sizes you'll need and I'd budget about $100 for a full set of 3.
Wheels- front disc or do I have to stick with the 90's vintage cantilevers: Stick with the cantilevers: front disc is a budget buster and the juice isn't worth the squeeze on a project like this. You'll spend more on a disc fork, wheelset, and brakes than the frame's value. Cantilevers are more than adequate for tandems, they just need to be set-up correctly.
Can I get something more than the current 6 cog cluster in the rear. Yes and there are two or three options here. I believe Shimano still makes the HF08 in a 140mm rear-spaced version and from a budgeting standpoint that's also your best-value in an excellent and durable tandem hub. You're looking at maybe $235 for the entire HF08 hubset, which is less than the other 140mm rear tandem hubs on the market, e.g., Phil Wood, DT Swiss Someone like Mel Kornbluh will sell you a nice 140mm Shimano XT / Mavic wheelset for $440 which ain't bad given that even if you built them yourself you still have to buy rims and spokes. I'm sure R&E would have a similar offering. Now, while it's a bit ugly, I suspect you could squeeze a 145mm-spaced rear wheel into your aluminum frame's 140mm rear drop-outs without doing any harm. I'm not talking about cold-setting here, this is just a tight-fit approach that sometimes works and opens up your options for hubs / wheelsets if you happen to stumble onto a used 145mm tandem wheelset that's dirt cheap relative to your budget. Of course, there are usually a few spaces on most 145mm rear hubs that can be removed to narrow the axle which would be option #3: shorten a 145mm rear hub axle to 142.5mm or 140mm to get a fit. If you go used wheel shopping you may find some NOS Hugi or Coda hubs / wheelsets out there with 140mm rear spacing and they'll work; however, the ratcheting mechanism needs to be cleaned an lubricated on a regular basis to keep them trouble-free.
Carbon fork? If you're working to a budget, this would likely be a budget buster that would easily consume 40% - 50% of your projected budget, assuming you don't need a new headset and can salvage the baseplate from your original fork.
You'll still need the drop bars ($35 if you shop wisely), bar ribbon, and if you also go with drop bars for the stoker a set of stoker rests ($35). You can save a few bucks on the stoker's bars by using the bullhorn style bars. You'll also need a new cable set -- housing and cables.
So, is it do-able? Yes, but you'll have to be a savvy shopper to bring it in under $1,000 or have an inside connection who can get you parts at wholesale / OEM pricing and, well, you'll need to do the work yourself.
Aemmer
You all have already given me some great direction and I have attempted to respond to each one of you individually. Unfortunately I seem to get timed out while I compose and type. When I hit the refresh button my work is lost. AAAAugh.
How long of a window should I get before i get timed out off this forum? Can I type in MS word and then cut and paste to the forum.
Thanks again.
Tim
deanack
Hi Tim,
Wordpad or notepad are better than MS Word. It would give the forum formatting it does not need. I'm watching this thread because I'm not sure if I want to upgrade or buy new.
Dean
BloomingCyclist
...Unfortunately I seem to get timed out while I compose and type. When I hit the refresh button my work is lost. AAAAugh. How long of a window should I get before i get timed out off this forum? ...
I believe my memory is correct on this but perhaps not. When I have been timed out in the past if I log in (instead of refresh) it brings back the screen I was writing on and I am able to pick up where I left off.
Bloomington, IN
Aemmer
Here are my thoughts:
The riders- I am 6'3" 230 lb Weekend Warrior in fair decent shape.
I accept the fact that family,and work committments don't let me get
out as much as I once did during the week to ride.
My stoker is very fit 5' 8" 120 lbs (teaches spin/step... classes in
the eve's several times a week just to get paid for a workout)
Together we weigh in at 350. After wasting a lot of money over the years,
I grudginly accepted the fact that lightweight bike parts were not made
for people my size.
I do prefer working on my own bikes and feel comfortable doing it with
the exception that,
I was banned 20 years ago from ever turning A spoke on one of my wheels
again (different story). I have a great friend who
owns a small independent bike shop. if requested he will always
check my work. He can get me good prices on new parts.I prefer not
to abuse this privlege. I do scrounge his shop for cool things laying around
whenever I get the chance
. I would prefer to have a good idea
of what I want before I talk to him. Also, unfortunately his shop is 150 miles away.
I will be replacing the Chains, rear cogs, chainrings, cables, housing.
I will assess the front and rear derailures before I retire them to
the spare parts box (more than likely they will be replaced).
I would like at least 8 cogs in the rear preferrably 9 or 10.
I would like to change the current front flat bar XT brakes/shifters to
drop bars with brifters.
I will assess the condition of the bottom brackets and replace if needed.
With the addition of more cogs in the rear, I will need a complete new rear wheel.
I have never spent much time on a road bike style brifters (my road bikes shifters
are on the down tube) but look forward.
I am curious about updating my cantilever in the front to disc (I love my Mtn.
bikes Hydraulic brakes For maintenance and stopping power) or at least a V.
After reading some posts on this site it sounds like Hydraulic disc's are not
good for Tandems.
If I update front brakes, I will need a new fork. I like the idea of trying Carbon fiber
if I can find one for the right price. This will probably blow my budget,
And I will probably put it off but still it's fun to dream and get ideas.
The drivetrain is where I will start. My goal is to be done with this by March.
I will try to post a before photo.
Hope this gives a bigger picture of exactly what I am seeking.
Thanks,
Tim
Aemmer
After researching your suggestions, and the web, I am coming closer to making my purchase choices. One place I am a bit befuddled with is my rear hub choices. With the limiting 140mm spacing my choices seem to be Phil Wood/Chris King or possibly the Shimano HF-08.
Phil Wood- more than I want to spend but I must admit, my last one has lasted 18 years (doubt I will have this bike in another 18 years).
Chris King- for the money I would stick with the known (to me) Phil wood.
Shimano HF-08- This is where I need your help. The price point is correct for what I am trying to accomplish. Depending on the article read, I can't determine if this is really available in 140mm.
Is this rear hub available in 140mm spacing.
Is there another good rear hub in this price point available in 140mm that I am missing?
Thanks again,
Tim
TandemGeek
Is this rear hub available in 140mm spacing.
I bought one from Mel Kornbluh at Tandems East in 2001 and I still see them listed in his catalog and on his Web site: http://www.tandemseast.com/parts/wheels.html, so I suspect that the answer is Yes.
Is there another good rear hub in this price point available in 140mm that I am missing?
No.
Aemmer
TG, after searching the web going in several different directions, one thing has become apparrent. Your name comes up quite often with good advise in regards to tandems. I appreciate your time as it appears several others have been blessed with your time also. For me, if I can convince a non bike riding friend to come along on a short ride in hopes they will get the bug to ride, I feel good. You have taken this to a whole different level.
Thanks,
Tim
Aemmer
SWC, Funny you bring up R+E. t was a ride with the group from R+E back in about 1990 that convinced me to buy a Mtn tandem. A group of about 15 of us (mostly R+E employees) were at Capital forest including 4 Mtn tandems (needless to say Barely any of the singles had front suspension and none of the tandems did). We had so much fun but the Tandems were in a league of their own. By the end of that ride, I knew I needed one also. No regrets, I can't begin to recall how much fun this bike has brought me, from easy bike path cruising with my mom in the stoker seat, to almost out of control singletrack with my friend screaming "more more faster faster."
I did stop by R+E last week looking for advise. They did not seem too receptive to talk about drivetrain upgrades I could do on a 18 yo tandem. There advise was bring it in and they would take care of it (I do not blame them the profit margin isn't that high on free advise and they don't really remember that I bought 3 bikes from them in the past 1987 Fisher Hoo Koo E Koo, 1991 AL 26, and 1992 American Comp Lite. I know ownership has changed at least once since then).
Their shop looked top shelf and I am sure they do great work.
I feel a bit guilty wasting their time when I know I will buy my components elsewhere.
swc7916
I did stop by R+E last week looking for advise. They did not seem too receptive to talk about drivetrain upgrades I could do on a 18 yo tandem.
Did you talk to Smiley, Scott, or one of the shop people? Scott is probably the person who will give you the most useful advice. I stop by R+E at least once every couple of weeks, so if you want me to ask Scott about your tandem, I can. (We have spent a lot of money there over the past 6 months, so I have gotten to know them on a first-name basis.)
Aemmer
When I was there I was trying to remember who you suggested to talk to. Not sure who it was I talked to anymore. I was there a week ago Saturday. The first guy was on the sales floor and stated he had just closed the deal on 4 bikes that day, he sent me to the repair shop where the guy wanted me to bring the bike in without making any immediate suggestions. By no means am I talking down about R+E. In their defense I had a sig other along who doesn't appreciate the insides of bike shops as much as I do. I would have waited them out until things got slower but.. well you know.
I think I am coming together on my component selections.
For the most part I will go with: 9 Speed XT deraileurs, cassette.
105 Brifters.
HF08 rear hub.
Undecided yet on dropbars, front chainrings, rear rim.
My visions of disc brakes and carbon fork will have to wait for phase 2 when I can re assess how much cash I have left to spend. The more I read the more I believe my current cantalever brakes will be just fine.
swc7916
When I was there I was trying to remember who you suggested to talk to. Not sure who it was I talked to anymore. I was there a week ago Saturday. The first guy was on the sales floor and stated he had just closed the deal on 4 bikes that day.
That was probably Smiley; he is primarily a bike sales and fitting guy. Saturday is their busiest day of the week. The person you want to talk to is Scott. The repair shop people are usually pretty booked up and they get a lot of drop-in work on Saturdays; they probably can't take the time to talk about a bike that they haven't seen.
Aemmer
Just finished the frame up replace/or restoration. I will post a few pictures along with what I ended up with soon. Happy to say I kept it under $1k and finished before the snow stopped (it is snowing again today in the Puget sound region, very unusual this late in the year). In the mean time my stoker should be home in the next few minutes to take the bike out on a short chilly maiden voyage).
Thanks for all the advice.
T
Aemmer
Here is what I ended up doing:
New bearings original bottom brackets (Specialized).
New pads front rear but re used XT rear U brake and front cantilever.
New bearings XT headset.
Front wheel stayed the same. 36 spoke Sansin hub on Mavic 231.
New rear wheel 40 spoke HF08 (140mm) on 26 inch Velocity wheel, 9 speed 11/34 cassette.
5 new chainrings FSA and generic.
New chains, both sides.
Slightly used XTR rear deraileur (less than 200 off road miles) I had in my spare parts box.
Slightly used Dura Ace front deraileur.
Slightly used Dura Ace STI 9 sp shifters with a known history (less than 1k miles) I got for a great price.
Generic 46" drop bars and tape.
All new cables and housing.
New stem and a quill.
Kept the same fork to stay in budget (next time).
Still using the Shimano 747's (If I feel the need to loose bike weight this will be my next upgrade).
Of course Saddles/posts/cranks stayed the same.
Not as exciting as some of the awesome bikes you all post on here and certainly not the lightest, but I think it is pretty exciting and we are anxious to put some more miles on it now that spring is here.
Still trying to get the right blend of chainrings up front. I went from a 28/44/53 on a 7 speed 12/28 (26 inch wheels/175 mm cranks) to a 30/38/52 on a 9 speed 11/34 (hilly riding) . I would like to replace the 38 middle with a 42.
Searching for a quality ramped/pinned 42 tooth middle that will fit my 74/110 arms.
I will attempt to post a few pic's now.
Aemmer
68461
68462
Here is the Mutt....
Need to take one of the finished product now...
Aemmer
68466
Ready to ride.
Rodriguez AL 26. 1990 Vintage.
specbill
Nice looking finished product...thanks for posting the updates on your project...it is fun seeing how you netted out on everything after the initial posts from January. Enjoy the ride.
Bill J.
Aemmer
Bill,
Thanks for the encouragement. I took into consideration all you stated in your earlier post. Particularily the part about determining what I wanted to accomplish. With my current stoker (who I don't plan on loosing), I know my tandem riding is changing from off/on road to only on road riding. After 17 years, I still love the way this bike handles and don't feel the need (or have the extra funds) to buy a new one.
When I started thinking about what I wanted to accomplish, the real desires was to improve the shifting. I knew it was time to change the obvious- chains, cables, housing, rings, and rear cluster.
I figured if doing this, it would be a good time to change to drop bars up front and step up to more gears in the back. The front deraileur was the original XT, and the rear XT was over 10 years old. They had been abused in muddy off road Pac NW conditions for several years. As I am now only going to ride the tandem on the road, changing them out to complete the new drivetrain seems like a good investment in quality shifting. I had in my spare parts box an XTR long cage RD with a broken stopper plate. I had snapped this off my Mtn bike a few years ago on one of its first rides. I finally made the time to find a new plate and thus acquired an almost new RD for my project. A friend came up with the nine speed DA STI shifters and DA FD (sweet, like you I really didn't want to trade down). That just left me with a rear wheel to acquire. Not sure how the HF08 will hold up (trade down from the Phil Wood that was on there before). Usually I just ruin my wheels by wearing out the sides of the rims braking in muddy conditions (Mtn bike). The only past hub issues I have had was breaking an axle on my road bike several years ago. At 350 lb combined weight we will put this new hub to the test.
Found the handlebars/stem /quill on the back shelves of my buddies bike shop.
My stokers passion is actually running (AAK), but she really enjoys riding the tandem. If she continues to get into biking as she seems to be (she just got her first road bike), I see more justifiable upgrades in the tandems future.
I think we are done with changes for this season, but as I admire the old mutt resting in the garage, I can't help but think:
I wish those old Shimano 747 pedals would hurry up and break so I can get some lighter ones.
Matching his/her saddles (lighter and from this millenium of course) would be nice.
Carbon fork (never had one on any bike, but everyone else has one now including my GF on her first road bike). Not fair. Seriously, I wonder about my current fork and the abuse it has taken the past several years.
Carbon bars to match the carbon fork (why not dream big).
We have taken the bike out for a few test miles since getting it together this past weekend. It shifts great, although since this is my first set of STI's, I still need to think about it before shifting.
I like the look and feel of the drop bars.
I still need to find a quality middle chainring for the right price in the right size (the 38 I have now is too small). I need to find a 42-46 tooth 9 sp compatible middle. Harris cycles offers some I am not familiar with for $67 (TA from France?) pricey. Sugino offers some that are not ramped. I will probably bit the bullet and get the TA if I don't come up with a different option.