I am surprised, but I think Canadians complain a lot less about their taxes... even though they pay a lot more. I'm not sure why that is. In general, I think Europeans also pay a large chunk of their incomes on income tax.

Here's a story from 2005 about rates throughout Europe and North America. Actually, the US is the third lowest.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Taxes/P148855.asp


In fact, in the US, taxes aren't really that high.... but there seems to be a feeling that most citizens are not getting what they pay for. Maybe the 19% national defense expenditure has something to do with it. Not sure...

That link (if I interpret it correctly) only accounts for federal taxes and not the local tax burden which includes; state, county and city (in my case) plus local option sales taxes, and if I eat out or stay at a hotel "accommodation taxes"

Aaron:)

Who really cares what happens to a company that can't afford to pay minimum wage? It's not exactly the bedrock of the economy.

Wrong.
1.Small buisness is the bedrock of the economy.
2.We could afford to pay them, but they were not worth any more pay.
3.Who cares about our buisness? Our 6 full time employees and their families. The 5 buisnesses that we have contracts with, and their customers.

Wrong.
1.Small buisness is the bedrock of the economy.
2.We could afford to pay them, but they were not worth any more pay.
3.Who cares about our buisness? Our 6 full time employees and their families. The 5 buisnesses that we have contracts with, and their customers.

Then you should pay your employees more than minimum wage. Minimum wage is for teenagers living at home. If adults are making money for you, they should receive enough compensation to provide happy lives for themselves and their families. If anybody should take pay cuts during a recession, it should be the owners and bosses. Parents would not eat while their child is hungry.

I think part of the reason is we know where our tax money is going and believe in what we have. None of us in this country would ever want to lose our health care system or social safety net and we know our taxes are paying for it.

But I think another reason is in Canada, we have a sense of ownership when it comes to our various levels of government. We've seen grassroots parties springing up — some within the past 20 years — and becoming major players in government when people have felt a dissatisfaction with the more established political parties. As a rule, we don't usually think of our government as a heavy-handed elitist club, attempting to manipulate us. But if things go wrong, we also can make some changes.

Many Americans believe that government can't accomplish anything of value for them. Remember that for 20 of the last 28 years we've had Presidents who were either too mean or too incompetent (probably both) to lead a working government. So we've come to believe that effective government is an oxymoron. We need to look to Canada and many European and Asian countries for inspiration. Our government is more on a par with Iraq, Pakistan and Kenya. Maybe we deserve better, maybe not.

Then you should pay your employees more than minimum wage. Minimum wage is for teenagers living at home. If adults are making money for you, they should receive enough compensation to provide happy lives for themselves and their families. If anybody should take pay cuts during a recession, it should be the owners and bosses. Parents would not eat while their child is hungry.

B.S. They were not worth anymore than minimum wage. They were barely functional individuals. In fact, in 3-5 hours a week I now do their job. Instead of them in 30.

Nobody "should" get paid anything. What you get paid is what you and your employer agree you are worth. When they took they job, they were agreeing that they were worth min wage. They were free to look for work elsewhere.

So you consider minimum wage workers to be children? That is pathetic.

Why should they owners take cuts? They owners, in my case, have, and in many cases, have risked their home, their families, and all their savings to get a buisness going. The employee when things gets tough, just picks up and moves to a new job. The owner may loose everything.
There is no great reward without great risk.

If you can get a great reward ( a good wage) for no risk, then why would anybody ever risk anything? Who would risk their savings, their home to open a buisness, if all they had to do was show up for a good wage?

If all I had to do to get a good wage was show up, and sweep floors, move boxes around, and I could get a good wage, I would have never started my buisness.
My partner would have nver bought into it, and out employees would be looking for work elsewhere.

If you can get a great reward ( a good wage) for no risk, then why would anybody ever risk anything? Who would risk their savings, their home to open a buisness, if all they had to do was show up for a good wage?

If all I had to do to get a good wage was show up, and sweep floors, move boxes around, and I could get a good wage, I would have never started my buisness.
My partner would have nver bought into it, and out employees would be looking for work elsewhere.
I imagine they will be looking for a job elsewhere. It's hell to work for a boss who doesn't value your contributions. Good luck with the biz, scrooge.

Have you ever received a paycheck from a poor person? I haven't.
No, I haven't. Usually, my wages have been better working for small, to medium sized companies.
As a general rule, I find that the richer the guy (or girl) at the top is, the worse they treat their employees.
Usually, that means paying them less, in one case it meant a truly horrible work environment.
That isn't aimed at you, I have no idea what you are like to work for.

To return to the original point, yes, there is a recession coming, I fear it is going to be a bad one in the
U.S. it will affect the rest of the world. Only question is how bad and how long.
For myself, I have no debts, low needs, and a job while not recession proof, is at least highly recession
resistant.

I am surprised, but I think Canadians complain a lot less about their taxes... even though they pay a lot more. I'm not sure why that is. In general, I think Europeans also pay a large chunk of their incomes on income tax.

Here's a story from 2005 about rates throughout Europe and North America. Actually, the US is the third lowest.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Taxes/P148855.asp


In fact, in the US, taxes aren't really that high.... but there seems to be a feeling that most citizens are not getting what they pay for. Maybe the 19% national defense expenditure has something to do with it. Not sure...

From what I've seen, the primary reasons Americans complain more about taxes are:
1) The U.S. health care system is atrocious... worse than many third-world countries.
2) The U.S. public education system is even worse. Last time I checked, they were just above South Africa in science rankings, some states teach creationism as if it were based on science, facilities are underfunded, etc.
3) A lot of Americans have become afraid of their own government. I can't blame them for not wanting to give money to an institution which freaks them out.
4) The 19% "national defense" (more like international offense) expenditure.
5) It's hard for a lot of Americans to go for a vacation overseas and get treated nicely. The 19% "national defense" expenditure sees to that. Most Americans are decent people who get a bad name because their government actively peeves the international community - using their tax dollars.
6) Complaining about taxes is a great American tradition. Isn't that one of the reasons they declared independence in the first place? And if the Founding Fathers did it, surely it's the thing to do!

Nobody "should" get paid anything. What you get paid is what you and your employer agree you are worth. When they took they job, they were agreeing that they were worth min wage. They were free to look for work elsewhere.

In B.C., we've got a minimum wage of $8 an hour, but that's completely irrelevant. We've also got a low unemployment rate (less than four per cent where I live and less than two per cent in some parts of the province) and there are Help Wanted signs all over the place. If you as an employer were here, you'd have to pay at least $10 an hour for the most menial tasks in order to find any employee willing to work for you. Even at that wage, you'd still have a hard time finding people.

Minimum wage is for teenagers living at home. If adults are making money for you, they should receive enough compensation to provide happy lives for themselves and their families.

I have to disagree there. Wages are not based on what you need, but what you can do.

Of course teens get minimum wages. Most don't understand the fundamentals of working for someone, nor do they have good work habits or skills.

Hopefully, as a worker, you realize this and as you work, find ways to make yourself more valuable.

Which does not mean that I object to unions. I used to be in a union myself. They can be very necessary and very valuable. And they can be useless if they don't really serve their membership.

It is by its very nature that a business wants to minimize its costs. And a worker must try to get the maximum pay for their services. There is a natural and eternal tension there. But beyond that, a business will find that happy employees are more productive, and one way to keep them happy is pay them enough. :)

I have to disagree there. Wages are not based on what you need, but what you can do.

Of course teens get minimum wages. Most don't understand the fundamentals of working for someone, nor do they have good work habits or skills.

Hopefully, as a worker, you realize this and as you work, find ways to make yourself more valuable.

Which does not mean that I object to unions. I used to be in a union myself. They can be very necessary and very valuable. And they can be useless if they don't really serve their membership.

It is by its very nature that a business wants to minimize its costs. And a worker must try to get the maximum pay for their services. There is a natural and eternal tension there. But beyond that, a business will find that happy employees are more productive, and one way to keep them happy is pay them enough. :)
Any laborer should be paid a living wage. If he's paid decently but doesn't work hard, he should be fired. He'll soon get the message.

Many Americans believe that government can't accomplish anything of value for them. Remember that for 20 of the last 28 years we've had Presidents who were either too mean or too incompetent (probably both) to lead a working government. So we've come to believe that effective government is an oxymoron. We need to look to Canada and many European and Asian countries for inspiration. Our government is more on a par with Iraq, Pakistan and Kenya. Maybe we deserve better, maybe not.

I think the big advantage these other countries have is the parlimentary form of government. First to some extent they lack a single individual with the sort of power and control which our goverment affords. Second should the person/people at the top lose the confidence of the people the situation can be changed without waiting for the next election cycle.

The countries you list with successful governments also seem to be ones which do not have a strong current of fundamentalist religion in their nation. While the less successful ones you list do (okay I'm not sure about Kenya). I'm not saying religion is bad. I'm just saying I want to move to somewhere with alot less of it.

looking back i'd say i've been through the worst that recessions can get. remember in the late seventies and early eighties. we had ten percent unemployment with fifteen percent inflation rate. now that is a recession. the recessions we have nowadays are like a cakewalk compared with that.

looking back i'd say i've been through the worst that recessions can get. remember in the late seventies and early eighties. we had ten percent unemployment with fifteen percent inflation rate. now that is a recession. the recessions we have nowadays are like a cakewalk compared with that.
Is there any guarantee that the current recession (BTW I think it's official now...) will be the same kind of disaster as the last half dozen?

What is it they say as they pocket your 401K money: "Past performance is no guarantee of future results."

looking back at it, oddly enough even with the recession of the late seventies and early eighties, when there was ten percent unemployment and fifteen percent inflation rate the tempo here on long island did not noticeably change. i don't really remember having an especially hard time. the government had the ceta program to give a job to anyone that wanted one. it seems the media tries to raise the specter of fear in people with the term recession but i don't remember recessions as being anymore different than any other period in my life.

Is there any guarantee that the current recession (BTW I think it's official now...) will be the same kind of disaster as the last half dozen?

What is it they say as they pocket your 401K money: "Past performance is no guarantee of future results."

Nope, its not official. In fact, we are by definition at least 6 months away from a recession.

recession
Definition

A period of general economic decline; specifically, a decline in GDP for two or more consecutive quarters.

www.Investorwords.com (http://www.investorwords.com/4086/recession.html)

As of Jan 30th, the 4Q 07 GDP growth was at 0.6%, altho' it was down considerably from the 4.9% gain in the 3Q, but technically we are not in a recession yet.

As to the 401K, who is "they"? The 401k is simply a type of account that holds your retirement savings. You can invest any way you like within it...even into a "stable value" account which should be inline with a high yield savings. You won't ever outpace inflation, but you won't see a negative on your statement.

Consider investing to to be like playing with a yo-yo walking up stairs. At any 1 time, your money, (the yo-yo) can be up or down, but in the long run you will be up. As you get older, you need to shorten the string.

Nope, its not official. In fact, we are by definition at least 6 months away from a recession.



www.Investorwords.com (http://www.investorwords.com/4086/recession.html)

As of Jan 30th, the 4Q 07 GDP growth was at 0.6%, altho' it was down considerably from the 4.9% gain in the 3Q, but technically we are not in a recession yet.

As to the 401K, who is "they"? The 401k is simply a type of account that holds your retirement savings. You can invest any way you like within it...even into a "stable value" account which should be inline with a high yield savings. You won't ever outpace inflation, but you won't see a negative on your statement.

Consider investing to to be like playing with a yo-yo walking up stairs. At any 1 time, your money, (the yo-yo) can be up or down, but in the long run you will be up. As you get older, you need to shorten the string.

It seems to me that the future is a little less certain than you think. I'm basically an optimist, but I've read enough history to understand that good times never last forever. Globally, humanity will have to make many wise decisions in order to achieve reasonable living standards in the next couple decades.