Astana out of the Tour?

[marin1]

Maybe

http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/13954.0.html

[Porter20]

I have trouble believing the Tour would turn down two podium finishers from last year. Sounds like some people are just trying to sell some papers.

[bikeoutfit]

The Tour de France owners are known for stupid moves. I would not be surprized if they did this, but it really seems stupid. In 2006 and 2007 TdF sent me letters to tell me to stop using "Tour de France" on my web page and to sell my tours to their event . . . unless I licence use of their name. I can not even use pictures I took of their event to promote my tours. Now this seems stupid. What I did was to bring Americans over to France to spend money including buying Tdf shirts etc.

While I love France and live there near half time, they have the most amazing ability to shoot themselves in the foot. I have a Pyrenees and Alpes TdF tour on my web site but I can not include the name Tour de France. go figure!!

My conclusion is that they will not keep Astana out . . . we shall see.

Dick Powell, www.outfittetours.com

[Green Jager]

Okay what is the problem with a cheating team not being included. To me it seems that the Tour management did exactly what they needed to do. Why would they let a known cheating team into the Tour even though it is under new , but very tainted management. Astana should not be on the Tour much less any race the team should have ceased to be last year. The Team its owners and management should be banned for life.

[Namenda]

Okay what is the problem with a cheating team not being included. To me it seems that the Tour management did exactly what they needed to do. Why would they let a known cheating team into the Tour even though it is under new , but very tainted management. Astana should not be on the Tour much less any race the team should have ceased to be last year. The Team its owners and management should be banned for life.

By that convoluted reasoning, the TdF should also ban Cofidis, High Road, Liquigas, Caisse D'Epargne, CSC, Gerolsteiner, Lampre, Milram, Quick Step, Rabobank, Saunier Duval, and Silence-Lotto. After all, they each have connections to riders or managers with tainted histories. I've likely missed a few. As a matter of fact, I'm sure of it.

Gonna be a pretty thin field at the Tour this year, eh?

[logdrum]

Asanta trains in Albuquerque New Mexico and sorrounding area --- I am really proud of that...

I heard from the local grapevine that they will be in the TDF in spite of this rumor!

I am really glad these guys are here so we could finish the velodrome!

[Green Jager]

Okay you have a point that all the teams have had their problerm children. So should we throw them all out well maybe. I think the difference is that with Astana and Disco it was part of the team culture, the management knew about it, they probably helped the process.

[ckelly49]

By that convoluted reasoning, the TdF should also ban Cofidis, High Road, Liquigas, Caisse D'Epargne, CSC, Gerolsteiner, Lampre, Milram, Quick Step, Rabobank, Saunier Duval, and Silence-Lotto. After all, they each have connections to riders or managers with tainted histories. I've likely missed a few. As a matter of fact, I'm sure of it.

Gonna be a pretty thin field at the Tour this year, eh?


+ T-Moblie

[Namenda]

+ T-Moblie

T-Mobile = High Road

[ckelly49]

T-Mobile = High Road

still also a tainted team, regardless of the name.

[Green Jager]

To be honest if it took banning all these teams and starting over it might be better then another scandal this year at the Tour. I mean how many scandals can the sport take, or for that matter how many can any sport take, before people go somewhere else.

[jaxgtr]

Okay what is the problem with a cheating team not being included. To me it seems that the Tour management did exactly what they needed to do. Why would they let a known cheating team into the Tour even though it is under new , but very tainted management. Astana should not be on the Tour much less any race the team should have ceased to be last year. The Team its owners and management should be banned for life.


Last time I check Astana of old, was blown up and they rebuilt with all new personnel.

[bikeoutfit]

I previously said on this thread that I did not think Astana (and others) would be excluded. Well the Giro d'Italia did exclude 5 Pro-Tour Teams including Astana and the former T-Mobile, High Road. There has been a war between the ProTour and the owners of the 3 major tours, Giro, TdF and Vuelta. I think the "tainted" teams have given the owners the opportunity to flex their muscles and put it to the Pro Tour. I now think it is quite possible they will be excluded form the Tour de France and Vuelta as well as the Giro. Seems like shooting yourself in the foot, but that is quite common it seems.

Levi, Horner, Hincapie and other USA stars are affected. These guys are clean . . . no drug history that I am aware of. That is sad. This is not about drugs or tainted teams, it is about power politics between the Pro-Tour and ASO (owner of TdF & soon the Vuelta) and the Giro owners. It is really hypocritical for any Italian or Spanish organization to complain about tainted teams . . . the owners are as much a problem as the teams and riders. Like all big money sports, it is the culture that caused and condoned doping.

I think the right actions have been taken to clean up the future of the sport. To pull the type of stufff the race owners are now doing justs creates more bad press and keeps the whole bad history alive. It would have been much better to just move ahead.

ASO and L'Equipe Sports Magazine are in cahoots and putting it too the organization that won the TdF 7 + 1 = 8 times is also what this is about.

The riders should just refuse to race the 3 big races. But, they have to eat, and that will not happen. Slipstream will get in and we will have our American Team again. Whatever happens, it will again be an exciting race. The sport of bike racing is bigger than a few naysayers, greedy owners and ProTour politicians.

Dick Powell, www.outfittertours.com
bikeoutfit@aol.com
Founder & Former Owner of The Bicycle Outfitter of Los Altos, CA

[marin1]

Last time I check Astana of old, was blown up and they rebuilt with all new personnel.

Check again, 18 out of 30 riders from last year are returning


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astana_Team

[marin1]

I previously said on this thread that I did not think Astana (and others) would be excluded. Well the Giro d'Italia did exclude 5 Pro-Tour Teams including Astana and the former T-Mobile, High Road. There has been a war between the ProTour and the owners of the 3 major tours, Giro, TdF and Vuelta. I think the "tainted" teams have given the owners the opportunity to flex their muscles and put it to the Pro Tour. I now think it is quite possible they will be excluded form the Tour de France and Vuelta as well as the Giro. Seems like shooting yourself in the foot, but that is quite common it seems.

Levi, Horner, Hincapie and other USA stars are affected. These guys are clean . . . no drug history that I am aware of. That is sad. This is not about drugs or tainted teams, it is about power politics between the Pro-Tour and ASO (owner of TdF & soon the Vuelta) and the Giro owners. It is really hypocritical for any Italian or Spanish organization to complain about tainted teams . . . the owners are as much a problem as the teams and riders. Like all big money sports, it is the culture that caused and condoned doping.

I think the right actions have been taken to clean up the future of the sport. To pull the type of stufff the race owners are now doing justs creates more bad press and keeps the whole bad history alive. It would have been much better to just move ahead.

ASO and L'Equipe Sports Magazine are in cahoots and putting it too the organization that won the TdF 7 + 1 = 8 times is also what this is about.

The riders should just refuse to race the 3 big races. But, they have to eat, and that will not happen. Slipstream will get in and we will have our American Team again. Whatever happens, it will again be an exciting race. The sport of bike racing is bigger than a few naysayers, greedy owners and ProTour politicians.

Dick Powell, www.outfittertours.com
bikeoutfit@aol.com
Founder & Former Owner of The Bicycle Outfitter of Los Altos, CA

The organization that won the tour 8 times doesn't exist anymore. 5 riders and a manager does not make this discovery channel in a new uniform. I don't think this has anything to do with americans on the team, I think a couple americans joined a team that was disgraced last year and are feeling the effects of a team being punished for previous problems. If you want a new american team to cheer for try High Road. Or you could cheer for riders who show character and passion regardless of the country they happened to be born in.

[bikeoutfit]

The organization that won the tour 8 times doesn't exist anymore. 5 riders and a manager does not make this discovery channel in a new uniform. I don't think this has anything to do with americans on the team, I think a couple americans joined a team that was disgraced last year and are feeling the effects of a team being punished for previous problems. If you want a new american team to cheer for try High Road. Or you could cheer for riders who show character and passion regardless of the country they happened to be born in.

I was referring to Team Manager Johan Bruyneel, not the Discovery riders. My sense is that he is not well liked by ASO because he has been perceived as a bit pushy over the years. I think ASO does not think Contador is clean and would be happy to not have him in 2008 as well.

I must admit I do tend to root for American riders. I truly respect talent regardless of where it comes from. I for one was taken in by Vinokoroff, he fooled me and I was rooting for him. But . . . . he cheated. I don't, however, go along with the idea of a "disgraced team". To me you fix the problem and move on. What happened last year, under different leadership, is irrelevant.

All this said, I will be pulling for Slipstream at the Giro, my first tour in 2008. We will be in the Dolomites for several stages and see it again at Gavia & Mortorolo. I do wish Astana and the others would be there as well. But, Slipstream will do for now. I would like to see Tom Danielson do something this year.
Dick Powell

[HigherGround]

It looks like Alberto, Levi, and Andreas will have some extra time on their hands in July: http://www.velonews.com/article/72000.

[maddmaxx]

My guess is that between now and the tour you will see a revolt from the pro tour teams.

[maalea]

As far as politics, big money and bicycle racing go, just check out how Pro Bet were jerked around last year.

[RockyMtnMerlin]

Bummer for those on the current Astana team who were apparently clean racers. I do have to wonder, though (as have other above) where ASO draws the line and why and how they do it. Seems like the most damaging thing PR wise last year were the Riis and Rasmussen debacles. Should CSC and Rabobank get excluded? And if you go down the list of who did what leading up to and during the le Tour, there are a lot of teams who damaged the Tour and cycling in general.

[RockyMtnMerlin]

As far as politics, big money and bicycle racing go, just check out how Pro Bet were jerked around last year.
I think you mean Unibet?

[FatguyRacer]

Gonna be a pretty thin field at the Tour this year, eh?


No French winner since Hinault. I'd say more like stacking the deck. :p

They could put in all French teams and a Frenchman still wouldnt win it.

My feelings about the Tour have been tempered quite a bit over the last few years. As grand tours go, the Giro has been the better event these last few years. If the organizers and RAI would step up the production values on par with the Tour, it could be just as big.

[maalea]

I think you mean Unibet?


Correct.


Thanks.

[marin1]

I have trouble believing the Tour would turn down two podium finishers from last year. Sounds like some people are just trying to sell some papers.

:rolleyes:

[ninjaman]

ASO has shown that they will not be bullied, and I applaud them for that. They didn't want Astana in this year before all the signings, then Astana turned around and signed 2 podium finishers in order to force their way in. ASO has not wavered, and I think you should all appreciate that a bit more. ASO are actually trying to do something positive for the sport, even if it doesn't all turn out perfectly. Case in point: Rassmussen.

[marin1]

ASO has shown that they will not be bullied, and I applaud them for that. They didn't want Astana in this year before all the signings, then Astana turned around and signed 2 podium finishers in order to force their way in. ASO has not wavered, and I think you should all appreciate that a bit more. ASO are actually trying to do something positive for the sport, even if it doesn't all turn out perfectly. Case in point: Rassmussen.

Nice to see someone going with their brain instead of their heart

[ninjaman]

Thank you. And it's not that ASO are turning down Contador or Leipheimer, I'm sure if they can get themselves to other teams, they will be welcomed.

[RockyMtnMerlin]

ASO has shown that they will not be bullied, and I applaud them for that. They didn't want Astana in this year before all the signings, then Astana turned around and signed 2 podium finishers in order to force their way in. ASO has not wavered, and I think you should all appreciate that a bit more. ASO are actually trying to do something positive for the sport, even if it doesn't all turn out perfectly. Case in point: Rassmussen.
You may have a point here but not sure about Rasmussen. I thought his team pulled him out of the Tour not ASO or UCI.

[adam]

Check again, 18 out of 30 riders from last year are returning


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astana_Team

You have to wonder if they changed the team name in the off-season, made changes to their drug testing, etc. and made big news about 'we are going to change - this is how' they wouldn't be in this mess.

Maybe TdF don't want the general public thinking "I remember Astana last year, Vino, etc. - aren't they the ones who got caught doing all the doping". As simple as a new team name could have helped them...

You assume Levi, Alberto, Johan, etc. all thought about this before moving over for this season and thought 'no way are they going to deny the TdF champion's team'.

This will get interesting.

[ninjaman]

You may have a point here but not sure about Rasmussen. I thought his team pulled him out of the Tour not ASO or UCI.

Yes, you're right. But ASO had been putting pressure on Rabobank before they sacked Rassmussen, and also stated that they wouldn't have allowed Rassmussen to compete in the TDF if they had known he lied about his whereabouts. Rabobank did their best to distance themselves from him, and make it seem like their immediate reaction. ASO decided it is better to preemptively remove the maillot jaune than to have a scandal after it's been won.

[madli]

The lack of consistency by the ASO in excluding teams tainted by doping, tells me be the riders of Astana were caught in the middle of the ongoing power struggle between the UCI & ASO! I applaud neither as it is a power-play pure and simple! Greed and politics! Only the fans and riders tainted by association are truly punished! Probably end up in some courtroom.

[bbunk]

Why is it just Astana? Cofidis dropped the whole team from the Tour last year also due to dopping problems, or is it okay because they are a French team?

[bikingshearer]

Nice to see someone going with their brain instead of their heart

Using an ad hominem attack, even a fairly mild and somewhat indirect one, on people who disagree with you is not exactly cricket. This is one where reasonable minds can, and obviously do, disagree.

On your side, the Astana name has, in the past two years, been badly tainted. And with reason. And ASO is saying that they trusted Astana last year when they implemented changes, and Astana still fouled the proverbial nest. That supports ASO's decision to bounce them. Sayng it's a case of "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" oversimplifies things, of course, but it's a pretty powerful and legitimate point.

On the other side of the coin, Astana appears have made wholesale changes in the entire structure of the team, including making for a more transparent doping control operation. Their big guns of the past are gone. Their big guns of this year have no (Leipheimer, Kloden) or, at worst, vaguely rumored with zero real back-up (Contador) connection to past doping issues. This supports a conclusion that this is unfairly punishing the present team for the transgressions of past riders and management who are no longer there to suffer the consequences. (Something that that NCAA has specialized in over the years, BTW.)

There are more facts and factors than these on each side. Ultimately, it comes down to how you weigh those factors in the balance. You think ASO was correct. Others disagree. But both sides in this have a logical, reasonable basis for their respective positions. Saying or implying that those who disagree with you do not does a disservice to the discussion.

[GGDub]

Astana needed to be much more proactive with their doping plan. To me at least, they have made it seem like they are begrudingly accepting someone else's plan (Team CSC), rather than developing their own, very high profile plan. T

[Gee3]

Astana needed to be much more proactive with their doping plan. To me at least, they have made it seem like they are begrudingly accepting someone else's plan (Team CSC), rather than developing their own, very high profile plan. T

I can't say I totally agree. Why develop your own plan when Daamsgard, I think his name is, already has a top tiered program with CSC that everyone has applauded. If you want to shed the past, that is one way to do it. Why reinvent the wheel when a very good one is already available? Especially since it'll take a pretty penny to come up with and implement a whole new wheel?

Also, I think for the ASO to say they are excluding them for past incidents is a weak arguement. Someone else brought up Riis and CSC, Rabobank, Cofidis, and others as still being allowed to ride. Yet they had just as big, if not bigger, an impact on the negative image of the tour last year. Yet they still get the invite. If they wish to be fair they should clear the whole board, not just single out one team.

Or maybe Astana needs to be more vocal about their doping program and image. They need to let everyone know that they are a new and cleaner team with an excellent doping program. Come to think of it, they seemed pretty low key unlike CSC, T-Mobile, Slipstream and others touting their programs. Maybe that's the problem. They didn't play the game to show that their image is clean. Maybe that's the team PR's fault for not yelling it from the top's of the mountains?

[Green Jager]

Any way you might want to slice this it is good thing. A team that burned the race and the sports two years in a row is out of the biggest race in the world. The teams revolting , I doubt it the sponsers are not going to hear of it, the Tour is to big a show place. Remember they want their names out there that is the benefit to them. If the race is dirty it cannot help them at all.

Secondly it also sends a message to teams that if they do not race clean they are not going to get to race in the big show(s). If this in any way helps clean up the sport and maybe other sports catch on it might be the best thing we have seen in years. Once teams and individuals know that the events and the sport is serious hopefully we will all benefit. It is painful and not everyone will like it.

[GGDub]

Or maybe Astana needs to be more vocal about their doping program and image. They need to let everyone know that they are a new and cleaner team with an excellent doping program. Come to think of it, they seemed pretty low key unlike CSC, T-Mobile, Slipstream and others touting their programs. Maybe that's the problem. They didn't play the game to show that their image is clean. Maybe that's the team PR's fault for not yelling it from the top's of the mountains?

I guess this is what I was trying to get at. Since they're announcement of adopting the CSC program they've been very low key. If you go to CSC's site, their anti-doping plan is right there to see, with a summary of results. You have to dig a lot deeper on the Astana site just to find a PR saying they're planning on implementing CSC's plan.

Given they, along with Phonak, became the poster child for doping programs, you'd think the new management would've done more to dispel this image right away. Also, its not like US Postal/Discovery has/had a very good image in Europe, so just bringing Bruyneel on board, hardly changes that image.

[Hornbiker]

I am really frustrated about Astana being excluded from the Tour because of the ASO's inconsistency. Why only Astana and not Cofidis, when Christian Moreni also tested positive during the Tour? I read a quote from the ASO that said they are allowing Cofidis back because they left the race when Moreni's positive test came up, without the TdF having to ask them to leave. Oh, I see. They had to "ask" Astana to leave when Vino tested positive, but Cofidis supposedly left without that request. That's the basis they're using to differentiate the two? Lame, lame, LAME.

Astana, a team with biological passports and the same additional, independent anti-doping program as CSC, is not invited because of past problems with different team members and different management, but other teams without these strict doping controls are allowed to slip through? And other teams with doping problems by members are still invited? So much for credibility. The TdF has rendered the race nearly irrelevant.

[bikeoutfit]

ASO has shown that they will not be bullied, and I applaud them for that. They didn't want Astana in this year before all the signings, then Astana turned around and signed 2 podium finishers in order to force their way in. ASO has not wavered, and I think you should all appreciate that a bit more. ASO are actually trying to do something positive for the sport, even if it doesn't all turn out perfectly. Case in point: Rassmussen.

I can't agree that ASO is trying to do anything about the well being of the sport . . . only what gives them better sales & profits IMHO. If it happens to help the sport that is a side benefit. It is about Control and putting it to the UCI. OK, I admit they were asking for it, but working together is a much better way. I have hoped for a long time that the riders would go on strike - they and the fans are the ones that lose out in all this political/money making BS, again IMHO. I do hope Danielson does well today in California. www.cycling.tv live right now. Was at the finish in Sacramento yesterday and our Arnold gave the awards! Exciting and Cipo was on the podium. My my, we are coming of age in the USA!
Dick Powell

[Porter20]

I am here to eat a little crow; cause there was no way I would think that ASO would not allow Astana into the tour.

With that being said, I am highly disappointed that Astana is not in the tour just because of the talent on the team. Also, I think it takes away from the strength of the field of the tour. Even if the big names go to other teams, it won't be the same. You have drug testing in place by the UCI for a reason. Trust them to catch them if they are dirty and then celebrate the fact you are cleaning it up. As far as I am concerned, if the ASO is worried about them being dirty then assign testers to each member of Astana and check them before each ride & after each ride, but not allowing them in is very Busch League in my book.

[pwog]

Check this out: http://www.letleviride.com/

[bellweatherman]

They need to go after Bruyneel & anyone associated with the old USPS/Discovery team. A permanent ban on those guys would start cleaning up the drug culture in cycling.

[kenyan_boy]

I'm done with professional sports. All of them: Soccer/Futbol, American Football, Baseball, Ice Hockey, Basketball, Cycling, Cricket.

All the teams in my area suck:
Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Tampa Bay Lightning
Tampa Bay (Devil) Rays
Tampa Bay Mutiny (now defunct)

Drugs, scandals, etc etc etc. When you're getting paid so much, why do it? Why? Don't they realize that many of us grew up with them as idols.

Overpaid, underperforming athletes. What a waste of time, and taxpayer money (when that is involved to bring a team in and to keep them there).

I'm sticking to watching college sports. Go USF Bulls!

I thought cycling would be the one standout. Was I stupid or what?

[Donegal]

Now it comes out that T-Mobile was rotten to the core. Management, Owners, Team Doctors all the way down to the soigneurs. A sophisticated drug management program was in place for the whole team. High Road is a good name. After a few small changes, some good ass-kissing, we are going to the Tour.

It really makes sense to exclude Astana, new riders, new management, full drug testing regime. Who will miss the defending Champion, the American Road Race Champion and third place finisher last year; or even a rider who finished on the podium twice? The strength of the team is indisputable, the reason for exclusion has nothing do to with doping. Politics, egos and money. I feel sorry for Johan and the entire Astana squad.

[Donegal]

Now it comes out that T-Mobile was rotten to the core. Management, Owners, Team Doctors all the way down to the soigneurs. A sophisticated drug management program was in place for the whole team. High Road is a good name. After a few small changes, some good ass-kissing, we are going to the Tour.

It really makes sense to exclude Astana, new riders, new management, full drug testing regime. Who will miss the defending Champion, the American Road Race Champion and third place finisher last year; or even a rider who finished on the podium twice? The strength of the team is indisputable, the reason for exclusion has nothing do to with doping. Politics, egos and money. I feel sorry for Johan and the entire Astana squad.

When cycling needs a shot in the arm, ASO gives it another kick in the a*!. ASO wants to sell papers and will sensationalize any indiscretion like they are the only reason it was exposed. The Tour has been rife with drugs since inception (right or wrong) and they blame cycling. I am so tired of the B.S. bad publicity that I could puke. If there is not a problem at the Tour, they will create one. Cycling fans talk about a great ride, excellent strategy, team effort, etc. The Tour press will focus on problems, attempting to negate the UCI, and further their own cause.

[BikeDork02]

I find it amazing that they say "The 20 best teams in the world will be at the tour" That is pretty humorous considering they are inviting Slipstream. They are by no means proven as one of the best in the world, yet. Yes they have some good individual cyclists, but as a team in Europe they have yet to prove themselves. In Paris-Nice they finished behind Skil-Shimano in the overall team classification and only beat one team. So they were second to last. Im sorry, but with all do respect to Skil-Shimano but there is a reason some teams are not invited to events. The Tour is one of the fastest overall races in the world, and I wouldnt be surprised to see over half the slipstream team not make the time cut once they hit the first climbs.

[ninjaman]

I feel sorry for Johan and the entire Astana squad.

How on Earth could anyone possibly feel sorry for Johan Bruyneel, quite possibly the luckiest SOB in history? He somehow managed to escape the spotlight when all the sh*t hit the fan at ONCE, then his sophisticated medical program at USP/Disco miraculously slipped below the radar, while he wins 8 tours in 9 years as well as builds himself a nice nest egg to fall back on. Then he saves face when he couldn't find a sponsor for Disco by bowing out 'honorably' and retiring. Then he gets lured back in with a megabuck contract with Astana! And he doesn't even ride in the car anymore! How can you feel sorry for him???

P.S. he also has a plasticky barbie doll wife, he's living the dream!

[andychang]

Correct. Astana is out of the tour this year. The official list of the 20 teams is here. http://www.letour.fr/2008/TDF/COURSE/us/actus.html#zone12

GO SLIPSTREAM CHIPOTLE!