Socially acceptable

[Pete Clark]

There is an unwritten law that controls most of us. We don't admit it, but even those of us who flaunt the written code will be afraid of breaking the law of "social acceptability."

For example, we often behave differently around some friends than others, simply because we know some of our friends wouldn't understand, or couldn't handle it.

Also, many people won't do something they might otherwise do in a crowd unless they see someone else do it first.

I believe this is the problem on the road with traffic today. Speeding and driving recklessly has become socially acceptable.
No one is afraid to break the law, because the law of social permissiveness has granted them the freedom to drive dangerously. Everyone else does it, so I can, too.

Finally, those of us who don't feel comfortable driving dangerously fast sometimes find ourselves doing so anyway, just because we are afraid of the rest of the traffic whizzing past us. We figure it's better to keep up with traffic, even if it is going 15 mph. over the limit. (I don't, but I know people who feel this way.)

So if everybody does it, does that make it ok? How can one go against the tide of social pressure?

I would like to see law enforcenment do the job they are there for. They are the ones with the authority; they are the ones who have the power to do it. Why don't they? They seem to have the time to ticket people who wrongly use the multi-passenger lane, or who have an expired tag. Yet do these things cut back on traffic accidents?

I look back to the days when I was pulled over for doing 70 in heavy traffic on a rainy night (I was about 20, then.) The officer said to me frankly, "Sir, we are tired of scraping people off the pavement." I took that literally.

Where has this kind of officer gone?

[MisterJ]

Peter,

Well said and a good question. I find it very interesting when driving on 316 out here in Gwinnett county the number of times that I am passed by out of jurisdiction policemen driving to make a prisoner transfer, or even in jurisdiction policemen hurrying to a non-emergency call.

That's the example that is set.

Why should anyone obey when the police themselves do not?

[megaman]

That's a great question! I find it interesting that I drive about 3 mph over in the open country(faster in busy freeway city driving to keep up with the flow),but I notice as soon as everyone else going faster(sometimes, much faster) sees a cop, they slow down below the speed limit. Yeah sure, you should slow down for various reasons if someone is over on the side of the road, but don't most of those idiots know by the time you see a cop he already knows your speed.

[Bikedud]

I equate it to a ball game. I know, sorry about the sports metaphor but give it a chance. If the referees in a game let the players get out of hand early then the results will be a game full of infractions, injury, danger, and poor sportsmanship. Conversly if the refs. deal with infractions and unsportsmanlike behavior immediately and correctly, everyone enjoys a better and safer game.

My point is basicly the same as yours (I think). The law has let speeding get out of control, on our interstates especially. Drivers expect to be able to drive 10-15 mph over the speed limit as they routinely do. Of ourse when the law does try to crack down it is for too short a period (too little /too late) and the crack down is met with loud complaints from citizens.

I apologize for the rant but you have struck a chord. I hate to drive on the interstate. Too many idiots, driving too fast, doing too many stupid things, while hurling a two ton (or 20 or 70 ton) missle down the hwy.

Thank God for two lane blacktop and bicycles.

[John E]

First there was fiscal inflation in the late 1970s.
Then there was grade inflation in the 1980s.
Then there was speed inflation in the 1990s.

Does anyone have a sharp object to fight all this inflation?

[willic]

Surely....This state of affairs covers life in general now. Fast driving only reflects everyones need for haste in todays lifestyles. From work to play its just one crazy dash.

[jester69]

Originally posted by Pete Clark
I believe this is the problem on the road with traffic today. Speeding and driving recklessly has become socially acceptable.

And how, there is this group or "gang" in St. Louis that plays with their sportbike motorcycles at high speeds on the public roads here, specifically on highway 44 for those that know the area, I saw one of the morons the other day riding a wheelie in traffic.

On this page (http://www.streetfighterz.com/video_page.htm) they have trailers of their "movies" where they document all of this lawbreaking and illegal activity. Press on any of the "play trailer" links and you get to see their stupidity.

All I can say is when they do crash and burn, I hope they don't take anyone else with them.

has anyone seen anything stupider? I can't believe a) anybody likes this merde much less buys their videos and b) the videos themselves haven't been used as evidence to prosecute these nimrods.

Anyway, that their videos sell is evidence that not only has speeding and driving reclessly become socially acceptable, its looked up to. Just look at movies like Fast & furious etc. They have to scrape a drag racing teenager and their friend out of the car with a spoon every few months here.

take care,

Jester

EDIT: The trailer for "CandI" I found to have the most idiocy per second, and some wrecks and ignoring police for good measure. They are all chock full of morons though.

[Pete Clark]

Originally posted by jester69
...there is this group or "gang" in St. Louis that plays with their sportbike motorcycles at high speeds on the public roads here, specifically on highway 44 for those that know the area, I saw one of the morons the other day riding a wheelie in traffic.
I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw exactly that the other day--a man (or kid, I'm not sure) doing a wheelie at what seemed like a very high speed in rush hour traffic.

About 20 minutes later, I saw what looked like this same guy, being attended to by paramedics.

[r600aero]

good glad to hear it...:) I just hope he didn't hurt anyone else...
Ryan

[lsits]

I think that one of the reasons that motorists drive faster than they used to is that auto manufacturers are promoting their vehicles as "safer". (Volvo has done this for years). With the emphasis on front and side air bags and protection during a crash I think a lot of motorists have a feeling of invincibility when they're behind the wheel. They think that even if they hit something they will be safe and secure inside their "bumper cars".

[randya]

Originally posted by willic
Surely....This state of affairs covers life in general now. Fast driving only reflects everyones need for haste in todays lifestyles. From work to play its just one crazy dash.

Actually, I think the reason is a little different. Everyone sees jerkoffs like Ken Lay of Enron, and others like him, break the law and get away with it, even profit from it. This fosters a feeling that laws can be flaunted and broken for personal gain, and there are no consequences.

I also agree that speeding and other unsafe behavior has become acceptable simply because 'everyone does it'.

And it doesn't help that cars and trucks are advertised based on their speed and power, and are almost never shown in traffic in advertisements. Car makers could certainly do a lot more to promote safe driving behavior; instead they base the appeal of their products on the abilities of their product to be used unsafely.

Finally, cops don't enforce the speed limit, because they participate in this general lawlessness as motorists, as well.

[lamajo25]

Pete, I would like to add to that a bit. Why do people then slow when they see a police officer, highway patrolmen, or sheriff's deputy?

Surly they don't think they are all going to get stopped.

I can answer the question of why don't police do more about traffic speeding.

You can't pull them all over, and one out of a crowd doesn't make a big enough impact. News agencies try and make it more known that more and more people are dying in high rate of speed accidents and making them more graphic for the viewers.

But as I said it's not making an impact.

Another reason is there just isn't enough law enforcement officers to go around.

Large example here in Arizona. Arizona Highway Patrol is called D.P.S. Department of Public Safety. There is one highway patrolman for every 50-70 mile stretch. You nearest back-up unit may be 20-40 miles away in each direction. You have 7 speeders, say like the motorcyclist you mentioned. You catch one, the next unit catches the next possibly and the rest get off scot free. Nothing can be done until the next time.

I urge you to call 911 when these vehicles that are going at an un-excusably rate of speed and get them their just deserve. Be a witness stop and sign the ticket and go to court and do us as law enforcement a favor.

One problem that I have noticed here in my town is, nobody wants to be a witness or a victim. As the old saying goes "No Victim, No Crime." We can't prosecute crimes if the victim doesn't show.

The next time that a proposition comes up on the ballot to give you more law enforcement officers, communications operators, and traffic enforcement officers, vote yes. We can all use them.

[Chris L]

Originally posted by randya
And it doesn't help that cars and trucks are advertised based on their speed and power, and are almost never shown in traffic in advertisements. Car makers could certainly do a lot more to promote safe driving behavior; instead they base the appeal of their products on the abilities of their product to be used unsafely.

I have noticed this too. However, if they actually used accurate advertising, how many do you think they would sell? I don't think too many advertisers would be content to show drivers sitting in traffic on the Sundale Bridge for two hours every afternoon, yet this is exactly what happens in the real world. Maybe the laws about false advertising could use some enforcement.

Originally posted by randya
Finally, cops don't enforce the speed limit, because they participate in this general lawlessness as motorists, as well.

Sometimes the cops have a perfectly legitimate reason for participating in this lawlessness. I know that if I was being held hostage in a seige, I'd want the cops there as quickly as possible.

[Chris L]

Originally posted by lamajo25
Pete, I would like to add to that a bit. Why do people then slow when they see a police officer, highway patrolmen, or sheriff's deputy?

Surly they don't think they are all going to get stopped.

I can answer the question of why don't police do more about traffic speeding.

You can't pull them all over, and one out of a crowd doesn't make a big enough impact.

I think it would if we had appropriate penalties. This is part of the problem, most people are quite happy to cop a couple of speeding tickets here and there because they can afford it -- after all, the repayments on the car they use to go at those speeds are much higher anyway and they seem to ignore those easily enough.

Originally posted by lamajo25

News agencies try and make it more known that more and more people are dying in high rate of speed accidents and making them more graphic for the viewers.

But as I said it's not making an impact.

I think the impact has just worn off. For years people have been using so-called "shock tactics" to try to make people slow down in this country. However, the problem is that once you've seen a car accident on TV (or anything else for that matter) enough times, it just wears off, one just becomes desensitised to it. Unfortunately, the authorities who rely on "education" didn't think of this.

Originally posted by lamajo25
Another reason is there just isn't enough law enforcement officers to go around.

<snip>

I urge you to call 911 when these vehicles that are going at an un-excusably rate of speed and get them their just deserve. Be a witness stop and sign the ticket and go to court and do us as law enforcement a favor.

I agree on the point about the numbers of law-enforcement officers. However, I think that stricter penalties could help to mitigate this particularly in the extreme examples you mention above. Quite regularly around here there are cases of people doing in excess of 200km/h in areas where the speed limit is only 60km/h. This is not something people do by accident. I really don't see why extreme cases like this can't be punished with an instant cancellation of licence and a vehicle confiscation. There really is no excuse for it.

I think if people figured something like that was a possibility, they would watch their behaviour a little more closely.

Originally posted by lamajo25
One problem that I have noticed here in my town is, nobody wants to be a witness or a victim. As the old saying goes "No Victim, No Crime." We can't prosecute crimes if the victim doesn't show.


The other problem is that it's sometimes very difficult to prove in court. I know this, from having reported things to the police in the past. I can take down a number and dob someone in, but if there is no physical evidence, or if there has been no "accident", there really is little the police can do apart from giving them a lecture - which is likely to be of limited value.

I think this is the problem with the whole speeding issue. If someone breaks a speed limit by a ridiculous amount, the mere act of someone calling the cops on them is unlikely to result in a ticket until an accident happens. By then it may well be too late. Hence we need proactive action, such as greater enforcement and stricter penalties.

[joeprim]

What is so majical about the speed limit? I don't believe t's speed, but in attemtion that caused wrecks. Relative speed may be important i.e. staying at a speed that keeps you away from the clumps that a lot of folks seem to like to drive in seems to me to be better than some number on a sign. And of course weaving through traffic can be dangerious, but just speed - do you guys really know how to drive?

Some folks are likely safe going fast as it keeps their attention on driving.

As for the sport bikes oh well gene pool clean up.

Joe

:beer:

[jester69]

Originally posted by joeprim
but just speed - do you guys really know how to drive?
Some folks are likely safe going fast as it keeps their attention on driving.


Yes, I know how to drive. I used to compete in SoloII autocross racing and have gone to a BMWCCA track day driving school. I probably drive better than you as I tended to win or place more highly than people thought my car should be able to.

Motorsport is for off road in a controlled environment. Driving on the road is for getting safely from A to B. If you are pushing it you are endangering others. Sure going a few miles an hour over the speed limit on the interstate doesn't seem to be risky, but I was almost killed when I was driving an older car that went just over the minimum speed and had a semi truck pass me ON THE SHOULDER going at least 85 in a 70 zone. If he had come up on me at the speed limit, my 50 mph speed would have given him time to react, but with him going 85, it was pass me on the shoulder or cream me (the fast lane was also occupied.)

That being said, many areas have EXCESSIVELY low speed limits for revenue purposes, I tend to drive the speed limit there as a way to not let them ticket me rather than as a safety issue.

All drivers probably occasionally speed on the highway, and elsewhere. I think a little drift over or below the speed limit is to be expected, but when it gets to unsafe territory like 15+ MPH over, that is indefensible. Even if the speed is safe for the road, the difference in speed with the other traffic is problematic.

If you need excessive speed to keep your attention on driving, turn in the license, you are unfit to drive.


As for the sport bikes oh well gene pool clean up.


In one of their videos it shows them going 140 MPH on a public roadway. If they hit a car going 55 the bike will tear through the sheetmetal of that car like a bullet. Anyone in the back seat would almost certainly be killed, perhaps those in the front seat. I don't think you really understand physics and just how much force 6-800 pounds of metal & meat has at those speeds.

take care,

Jester

[greywolf]

Good subject Pete , all I know is that I've become a more tolerant driver since I've re-joined the cycling fold ,I stop & wave waiting traffic into the main stream ,much to the annoyance of the cars in my rear , what differance does it make to our progress in heavy traffic ?? vertualy nil. (Im talking about when Im driving ,when Im on my bike I give no quarter, any sign of weakness & you're lost) :( :rolleyes:

[Pete Clark]

Originally posted by greywolf
...I've become a more tolerant driver since I've re-joined the cycling fold ,I stop & wave waiting traffic into the main stream ,much to the annoyance of the cars in my rear , what differance does it make to our progress in heavy traffic ?? vertualy nil.
Me too. Since I've become a cyclist, I've learned that speed between traffic stops means nothing.

Speeding in urban areas offers little advantage due to the short distances travelled and the "law of diminishing returns," which means that the faster you are travelling, the less any increase in speed will make a difference.

As an experienced driver (like most of us,) I've taken many long trips by car.

For example:

570 miles at 60 mph. takes 9 1/2 hours.
570 miles at 70 mph. takes 8 hours, 1 1/2 hours less.

That really saves time--90 minutes.

But in short-distance urban travel:

35 miles at 60 mph. takes 35 minutes.
35 miles at 70 mph. takes 30 minutes, 5 minutes less.

Wow, I can save 5 minutes by speeding (maybe, if I don't hit a traffic jam.) I could save 5 minutes by getting up earlier.

Yet, slightly faster speeds in cars have a significant effect on fatalities and injuries in crashes.

______________

The following examples are quite realistic.

On my commute, by car:

15 miles at 25 mph. takes 36 minutes.
15 miles at 30 mph. takes 30 minutes, 6 minutes less.

On my commute, by bike:

15 miles at 14 mph. takes 64 1/2 minutes.
15 miles at 15 mph. takes 60 minutes, 4 1/2 minutes less.

You can see that in a car, 5 mph. faster saved 6 minutes on my commute. On a bike, 1 mph. saved 4 1/2 minutes.

This is the "law of diminishing returns."

Anyway, being a cyclist has changed my whole perspective on average speed. I wish some of our local truckers would understand this concept when they are in urban areas.

[lamajo25]

I think it would if we had appropriate penalties.

You are absolutely right.

For example, here a speeding ticket for 5-10 mph over the speed limit is anywhere from 25-75 dollars. A ticket for 15-20 over is anywhere from 100-180. (I got a ticket doing 75 in a 50 about a year ago). It's easy to pay for a lower end ticket.

The officer's go for the higher ended tickets (Now don't take this wrong) because the department gets more money out of those tickets than the lower ended tickets. Most all departments these days don't have quotas. It's not about how many tickets that are issued, it's more about how much you got them for.

[Cyclepath]

Cutbacks have affected law enforcement too (Always money for tanks & bombs, however). One option would be making use of video cameras on overpasses & at intersections to catch offenders. Much less trouble proving cases.

Virtually every TV commercial for a motor vehicle of any kind shows it being driven reckessly &/or at high speed. But there are other ways of advertising them other than showing them stuck in traffic.

"MORE!" is the operative principle of consumer society - more money, more possessions, more status, more excitement, more speed....what happens on the highway is simply a reflection of the dominant culture as a whole.

[AdrianB]

Originally posted by willic
Surely....This state of affairs covers life in general now. Fast driving only reflects everyones need for haste in todays lifestyles. From work to play its just one crazy dash.

But they get out of their car and walk so slowly!

[Chris L]

Originally posted by Cyclepath
Cutbacks have affected law enforcement too (Always money for tanks & bombs, however). One option would be making use of video cameras on overpasses & at intersections to catch offenders. Much less trouble proving cases.

But what about speed cameras? We even have those in Queensland these days! These are more than capable of taking a photo of someone exceeding the speed limit. The problem is, as I said before, that the fines are not sufficiently high enough to act as a deterrent anymore. They may have been once, but they've simply failed to keep pace with inflation.

Originally posted by Cyclepath
"MORE!" is the operative principle of consumer society - more money, more possessions, more status, more excitement, more speed....what happens on the highway is simply a reflection of the dominant culture as a whole.

Just as well we have the wit and wisdom of the Manics! I didn't quote them in my sig because it looked good! :D

[TrekRider]

Peter,

Well said and a good question. I find it very interesting when driving on 316 out here in Gwinnett county the number of times that I am passed by out of jurisdiction policemen driving to make a prisoner transfer, or even in jurisdiction policemen hurrying to a non-emergency call.

That's the example that is set.

Why should anyone obey when the police themselves do not?

I have heard from several policemen that most roads are designed for average speeds above what is posted. For example, most thoroughfares in my area are posted at 35mph, but it is quite safe to travel at 45mph. In fact, the flow of traffic is 45mph most anytime day or night.

When it starts to creep up, the police will set up and ticket anyone over the posted limit. That usually slows everyone down - well, back to 45mph - for a few months.

As far as policemen traveling at above the posted limit, even if they are out of jurisdiction, I give them the benefit of the doubt. They may be going somewhere on a silent response.

But, your premise is correct. Speeding in our culture is considered OK.

[Stor Mand]

Cutbacks have affected law enforcement too (Always money for tanks & bombs, however). One option would be making use of video cameras on overpasses & at intersections to catch offenders. Much less trouble proving cases.

Virtually every TV commercial for a motor vehicle of any kind shows it being driven reckessly &/or at high speed. But there are other ways of advertising them other than showing them stuck in traffic.

"MORE!" is the operative principle of consumer society - more money, more possessions, more status, more excitement, more speed....what happens on the highway is simply a reflection of the dominant culture as a whole.

Yes, just what we need is to be watched more. :rolleyes:
As somone else stated, the speed limit is generally set below the actual safe level for that road. As for speeding being moreacceptible, it's is no more or less accepted now than 20+ years ago. The speed limits were higher 20 or 30 years ago also.

[cycletourist]

In Missouri there is a very stupid law that prohibits cities from aquiring more than a small percentage of their total income thru traffic tickets. I forget the actual amount but it is something ridiculous like 1%. This law is supposed to stop small town cops from preying on travellers but the actual result is that police no longer enforce speed limits.

[Erick L]

Make speeding, like smoking, socially unacceptable and your problem is solved.

[DnvrFox]

Make speeding, like smoking, socially unacceptable and your problem is solved.

And how would you do that?

Do you have a plan or a suggestion as to how this might be done? That is, besides writing to BikeForums about it, where everyone already agrees with you. Or besides "the legislature - or police - (or whomever) - should do something."

Truly, if you want change in society - what would you specifically do?

MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Driving) has certainly had an impact by their techniques on drunk driving. They did more than simply expound. They developed an action plan and implemented the plan.

So, any ideas? I would love to see speeding become "socially unacceptable." But not only speeding - tailgaiting, unsafe lane changing and a whole host of other raunchy driving habits that are now "socially acceptable."

Is "Critical Mass" an option for change?

How about the League of American Bicyclists? Could they be a change agent?

Could the power of BikeForums be mobilized?

How about personalities such as Lance?

Public Service Announcements?

Letter writing campaign?

Phone campaign?

How about getting hooked up with a bicycle section on

http://roadragers.com/index.shtml

(Thanks to Joe for the link)

How about an "Action Forum" here on BikeForums? Where folks who wanted to do more than talk could develop and implement plans to attempt to make changes? Brainstorming, plans and action. Don't think you wouldn't or couldn't make a difference. Small but bright and vocal groups CAN (and do) make a real difference in our society.

Truly - how can WE (you and I) be "change agents?"

Can we move beyond discussion to an action plan?

Would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

[cycletourist]

speaking of tailgaters... I have a special way of dealing with them. I simply take my foot off the gas. I just coast along, going slower and slower until they finally get the idea and go around me. The other day someone passed my on the right and immediately got nabbed by the Branson Police :0)

[DnvrFox]

speaking of tailgaters... I have a special way of dealing with them. I simply take my foot off the gas. I just coast along, going slower and slower until they finally get the idea and go around me. The other day someone passed my on the right and immediately got nabbed by the Branson Police :0)

If you do that around here, they will climb up on your back bumper and literally push you aside!!

To me, while driving, the absolute worst driving offense is the tailgater, cell phone in one hand, coffee in the other, driving literally 2 feet behind you in the Ford Excursion.

As a defensive measure, I generally will change lanes or even pull off the road when possible.

Sometimes I wish I had a maching gun mounted out the back window :D .

[khuon]

If you do that around here, they will climb up on your back bumper and literally push you aside!!

To me, while driving, the absolute worst driving offense is the tailgater, cell phone in one hand, coffee in the other, driving literally 2 feet behind you in the Ford Excursion.

As a defensive measure, I generally will change lanes or even pull off the road when possible.

Sometimes I wish I had a maching gun mounted out the back window :D .

I usually do the same. If it's safe to do so, I'll try and get out of their way. They can take their dangerous situation elsewhere. I however admit that in my younger and stupider days, I've been known to flip chunks of ice from a drink or even ketchup packets out my window at them. DO NOT RESORT TO SUCH ACTIONS! I don't advise it. Such actions will only provoke a roadrage incident and may by itself be considered one.

[randya]

Personally, I like the stay in front of 'em and slow 'em down approach. As with cycling, rear-end accidents are actually relatively unlikely. There are several major metopolitan areas now that have official 'pace car' programs, where drivers pledge to drive the speed limit to slow traffic down.

[DnvrFox]

Personally, I like the stay in front of 'em and slow 'em down approach. As with cycling, rear-end accidents are actually relatively unlikely. There are several major metopolitan areas now that have official 'pace car' programs, where drivers pledge to drive the speed limit to slow traffic down.

Actually, the way highways are designed, if everyone drove the speed limit, it would reduce the carrying capacity of the highway significantly. It is my personal opinion that

1. Tailgaiting is encouraged (or at least not punished) by the police so that cars can get closer together and you can get more cars on the freeway, If everyone stayed the recommended (by defensive driving courses) 2 seconds behind the car in front, you can get get only about 1/2 the number of cars on the freeway; and

2. Traffic engineers really want cars to go faster - a 20% increase in speed will increase the carrying capacity of a highway significantly. However, they must post a lower speed limit to meet federal guidelines and so police can issue tickets and increase revenue.

Yes, there are more accidents - but the increased benefits of the carrying capacity outweigh the reduction of capacity when there is an accident. One more cost/benefit analysis ruling our lives!!

Just my crazy thoughts!

[randya]

Actually, the faster you drive, the smaller the 'carrying capacity' of a road, due to the need for larger following distances in order to safely stop (one car length per 10 mph or thereabouts).

[DnvrFox]

Actually, the faster you drive, the smaller the 'carrying capacity' of a road, due to the need for larger following distances in order to safely stop (one car length per 10 mph or thereabouts).

That is true ONLY IF folks increase their distance between cars when going faster.

Around here, they don't do that. They stay the same distance behind, no matter the speed. Really. It is very tense on the crowded freeways in rush hour high speed traffic. Perhaps they drive differently in Oregon??

Colorado drivers really are not very safe.

If folks drove "safely" so they could properly stop (or be safe in other situations), we would not be having this thread.

[LittleBigMan]

I generally regard speeders (a category which includes those antsy lane-changers, who constantly jockey for position, and tail-gaters) as a rather ignorant group. Albert Einstein once noted that a primary indicator of intelligence was the ability to delay gratification.

I sure am gratified when I roll up to them at the next stop light.

:D

[Bobatin]

News agencies try and make it more known that more and more people are dying in high rate of speed accidents and making them more graphic for the viewers.

Not graphic enough. Down in Panama they put the dead along side the road until the morgue picks them up, uncovered.

[lotek]

Don't want to be the dissenting voice here, but sometimes you have to keep up with the pack or get
run off the road, literally. I know, herd mentality but also
a safety measure too.
How acceptable is speeding when porche now markets a
470 HP SUV? And they aren't the only ones.

Marty

[randya]

I agree w/ the comment about motorists and pack mentality; I was recently back in NYC, and if you drive in Manhattan and don't drive like a cab driver yourself, all the other drivers take advantage of you. Oregon drivers are generally much more polite, but not necessarily very well trained, and other cities I've lived in or visited run the spectrum between the two.

[Chris L]

I agree w/ the comment about motorists and pack mentality; I was recently back in NYC, and if you drive in Manhattan and don't drive like a cab driver yourself, all the other drivers take advantage of you. Oregon drivers are generally much more polite, but not necessarily very well trained, and other cities I've lived in or visited run the spectrum between the two.

Might explain why Victorian drivers tend to drive so much worse in Queensland than they do in Victoria. I always thought it was because Queensland had to make do with all the Victorians who had been kicked out.