rjemery
01-31-08, 09:55 AM
I am seeking to purchase a stock steel (CroMoly or Reynolds 501) MTB hardtail frame and fork, new (not used).
What or who would be a good source for same?
What or who would be a good source for same?
Mountain Biking - Source for Steel MTB Frames
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01-31-08, 10:08 AM
Surly and Salsa both make them, Nashbar might have one as well?
mx_599
01-31-08, 12:59 PM
I am seeking to purchase a stock steel (CroMoly or Reynolds 501) MTB hardtail frame and fork, new (not used).
What or who would be a good source for same?
how about columbus steel? columbus is good. cove makes a great columbus steel hardtail.
What or who would be a good source for same?
how about columbus steel? columbus is good. cove makes a great columbus steel hardtail.
born2bahick
01-31-08, 01:04 PM
Gunnar (http://www.gunnarbikes.com/rockhound.php)
Sirrobinofcoxly
01-31-08, 01:04 PM
I had a Surly 1x1 at one point that I really liked. SS, but was really nice to ride. I would be interested in trying out a Karate Monkey (http://www.surlybikes.com/karatemonkey.html) (but it's a 29er).
rjemery
01-31-08, 01:05 PM
mx,
Do you have any contact information for Columbus? A URL perhaps?
Do you have any contact information for Columbus? A URL perhaps?
born2bahick
01-31-08, 01:22 PM
I believe Marin uses columbus tubing on their steel frames.
mx_599
01-31-08, 01:22 PM
mx,
Do you have any contact information for Columbus? A URL perhaps?
http://www.columbustubi.com/
looks like the english part is down at the moment. i have the zona something steel tubing by them. i love them...but i am not a metallurgist or anything.
ask the guys in the frame building section about steel brands. a guy named falanx or something like that is good with metals i think. you might want to pm him.
also try a columbus search in the frame building section too...
i am not saying their stuff is better...but i like their white dove emblem. i have a carbon road fork by them as well... it is very light and seems to be an excellent fork.
cove are made in british columbia, that is kind of cool as well.
Do you have any contact information for Columbus? A URL perhaps?
http://www.columbustubi.com/
looks like the english part is down at the moment. i have the zona something steel tubing by them. i love them...but i am not a metallurgist or anything.
ask the guys in the frame building section about steel brands. a guy named falanx or something like that is good with metals i think. you might want to pm him.
also try a columbus search in the frame building section too...
i am not saying their stuff is better...but i like their white dove emblem. i have a carbon road fork by them as well... it is very light and seems to be an excellent fork.
cove are made in british columbia, that is kind of cool as well.
bmalmquist
01-31-08, 01:32 PM
I believe Marin uses columbus tubing on their steel frames.
+1. They used to make some killer steel bikes out of Columbus Zona and Thron. Now they just make a killer bike out of Zona - Marin Pine Mountain.
+1. They used to make some killer steel bikes out of Columbus Zona and Thron. Now they just make a killer bike out of Zona - Marin Pine Mountain.
junkyard
01-31-08, 01:50 PM
steel is real.
had to say it.
had to say it.
scelia
01-31-08, 02:05 PM
Gunnar (http://www.gunnarbikes.com/rockhound.php)
+1
+1
kcham16
01-31-08, 04:48 PM
it depends on what type of bike you're wanting to build. if you're going budget, Nashbar's is pretty good, and a lot of time they're on sale for under $100. plus, they are generically painted, which is a plus.
Hasselhof
01-31-08, 05:57 PM
Soma Groove
On-One Inbred
Voodoo Bizango / Wanga / Erzuile
On-One Inbred
Voodoo Bizango / Wanga / Erzuile
tizeye
02-01-08, 07:29 AM
Gunnar (http://www.gunnarbikes.com/rockhound.php)
+2 on the Gunnar, available in either 26 or 29. Uses TT XO Platinum steel which is far more refined than generic cromoly. Am not certain Reynolds still makes the 501 which was their lowest, and heaviest, grade in the 80's. I think the current lowest grade is 531 from the same era, but now used in specialty products like forks that will carry loads carbon can't handle. Gunnar frames - mountain and road - have a very positive reputation.
Also, in the same $800 price range is the Habanero Ti. Granted, it is not steel - but it is definately not aluminum or carbon, and closer to steel as an alternative.
+2 on the Gunnar, available in either 26 or 29. Uses TT XO Platinum steel which is far more refined than generic cromoly. Am not certain Reynolds still makes the 501 which was their lowest, and heaviest, grade in the 80's. I think the current lowest grade is 531 from the same era, but now used in specialty products like forks that will carry loads carbon can't handle. Gunnar frames - mountain and road - have a very positive reputation.
Also, in the same $800 price range is the Habanero Ti. Granted, it is not steel - but it is definately not aluminum or carbon, and closer to steel as an alternative.
rjemery
02-01-08, 07:56 AM
Am not certain Reynolds still makes the 501 which was their lowest, and heaviest, grade in the 80's. I think the current lowest grade is 531 from the same era, but now used in specialty products like forks that will carry loads carbon can't handle.
Time marches on. As I have discovered, the 501 is not offered by Reynolds any longer, while the 531 is. 531 is presumably their lowest grade steel. Reynolds currently offers a number of different steel tubing products or grades: 953, 853, 631, 725, 525, 753 and 531.
However, it is not just about strength. It's also about flexibility. That's one reason their 501 tubing was so popular in the 1980's.
At a time when both 501 and 531 were offered, I recall reading something somewhere that said 531 was stiffer than 501 and therefore not suitable for touring bicycles.
I have had a life long battle with LBSs whose personnel all seem to be racers and who can think only in terms of racing. Most often, what's good for a racer is NOT good for a tourer. They claim to be able to service a tourer, but it soon boils down to pushing whatever is in the shop.
Time marches on. As I have discovered, the 501 is not offered by Reynolds any longer, while the 531 is. 531 is presumably their lowest grade steel. Reynolds currently offers a number of different steel tubing products or grades: 953, 853, 631, 725, 525, 753 and 531.
However, it is not just about strength. It's also about flexibility. That's one reason their 501 tubing was so popular in the 1980's.
At a time when both 501 and 531 were offered, I recall reading something somewhere that said 531 was stiffer than 501 and therefore not suitable for touring bicycles.
I have had a life long battle with LBSs whose personnel all seem to be racers and who can think only in terms of racing. Most often, what's good for a racer is NOT good for a tourer. They claim to be able to service a tourer, but it soon boils down to pushing whatever is in the shop.
redtires
02-01-08, 08:07 AM
Looks like Nashbar still has a full range of sizes in their 853 hardtail. Reynolds, pretty light, AND orange! :) Not a bad deal for under 300 bones.
paul emick
02-01-08, 08:44 AM
Looks like Nashbar still has a full range of sizes in their 853 hardtail. Reynolds, pretty light, AND orange! :) Not a bad deal for under 300 bones.
The Nashbar frame is made by Kinesis, and is the same as the
Jamis Dragon 853 frame. I've been considering this myself.
The Nashbar frame is made by Kinesis, and is the same as the
Jamis Dragon 853 frame. I've been considering this myself.
Oleanshoebox
02-01-08, 08:48 AM
jenson has em.
Staggerwing
02-01-08, 09:40 AM
However, it is not just about strength. It's also about flexibility. That's one reason their 501 tubing was so popular in the 1980's.
[Soap Box]
Don't take personal offense, because you are likely repeating something you heard, but that is total and complete CRAP.
Garden shovels, knife blades, bed springs, truck frames, I-beams and bike frames are all made of steel that has basically the same "stiffness" factor. In other words, steel is steel, from a stiffness perspective. In the engineering world, the stiffness term is Modulus of Elasticity (E), and for steel, 29 x 10^6 psi. Higher grade steels, heat treating, and better processing (forging, cold working, etc.) get you higher yield strength (stress at which plastic deformation first takes place), and ultimate strength (stress that will generate complete failure). From a strength perspective, there are large differences.
Better steel simply means you can use less of it, and can stress it higher before bad things begin to happen. Note also that stiffness of frame has as much to do with geometry, both of the tube and the construct, as the Modulus of the selected material. This is why a featherweight frame of beer can thickness aluminum can rattle your fillings out, and a twice as heavy steel frame may just be the most comfortable frame that you've ever experienced. FWIW, the modulus and density of aluminum are about 1/3 that of steel. Yield strength of a couple of the alloys, 2024 and 7075 come to mind, are well into steel territory. Doesn't make it better or worse though.
[/Soap Box]
[Soap Box]
Don't take personal offense, because you are likely repeating something you heard, but that is total and complete CRAP.
Garden shovels, knife blades, bed springs, truck frames, I-beams and bike frames are all made of steel that has basically the same "stiffness" factor. In other words, steel is steel, from a stiffness perspective. In the engineering world, the stiffness term is Modulus of Elasticity (E), and for steel, 29 x 10^6 psi. Higher grade steels, heat treating, and better processing (forging, cold working, etc.) get you higher yield strength (stress at which plastic deformation first takes place), and ultimate strength (stress that will generate complete failure). From a strength perspective, there are large differences.
Better steel simply means you can use less of it, and can stress it higher before bad things begin to happen. Note also that stiffness of frame has as much to do with geometry, both of the tube and the construct, as the Modulus of the selected material. This is why a featherweight frame of beer can thickness aluminum can rattle your fillings out, and a twice as heavy steel frame may just be the most comfortable frame that you've ever experienced. FWIW, the modulus and density of aluminum are about 1/3 that of steel. Yield strength of a couple of the alloys, 2024 and 7075 come to mind, are well into steel territory. Doesn't make it better or worse though.
[/Soap Box]
mx_599
02-01-08, 01:49 PM
not sure about marin, but another thing i considered while looking for a steel HT was NO brake bosses on the rear stays.
believe it or not, this is harder than you think to find. Cove was disc specific and clean...
believe it or not, this is harder than you think to find. Cove was disc specific and clean...
rjemery
02-01-08, 03:11 PM
... steel HT was NO brake bosses on the rear stays.
What are brake bosses? These facilitate what?
And by rear stay do you mean the chain stay or the seat stay?
If you are strictly into disc brakes for a HT, why would this type of brake be needed in all but the most extreme riding situations?
What are brake bosses? These facilitate what?
And by rear stay do you mean the chain stay or the seat stay?
If you are strictly into disc brakes for a HT, why would this type of brake be needed in all but the most extreme riding situations?
tizeye
02-01-08, 03:27 PM
Time marches on. As I have discovered, the 501 is not offered by Reynolds any longer, while the 531 is. 531 is presumably their lowest grade steel. Reynolds currently offers a number of different steel tubing products or grades: 953, 853, 631, 725, 525, 753 and 531.
At a time when both 501 and 531 were offered, I recall reading something somewhere that said 531 was stiffer than 501 and therefore not suitable for touring bicycles.
They were misleading you. I still ride my 531 road bike I bought in 1985, and the general complaint about 531 road bikes today is that they were not stiff enough for racers. 501 was the less expensive model and generally 'entry level', while 531 was a step up in performance. 501 was one step above the HiTen steel used in Huffy's, and probably equal to Tange and CroMo.
At a time when both 501 and 531 were offered, I recall reading something somewhere that said 531 was stiffer than 501 and therefore not suitable for touring bicycles.
They were misleading you. I still ride my 531 road bike I bought in 1985, and the general complaint about 531 road bikes today is that they were not stiff enough for racers. 501 was the less expensive model and generally 'entry level', while 531 was a step up in performance. 501 was one step above the HiTen steel used in Huffy's, and probably equal to Tange and CroMo.
mx_599
02-01-08, 07:45 PM
What are brake bosses? These facilitate what?
And by rear stay do you mean the chain stay or the seat stay?
If you are strictly into disc brakes for a HT, why would this type of brake be needed in all but the most extreme riding situations?
bosses for attaching rim brakes. on seat stays.
they are not necessary, just an absolute enjoyment over rims brakes. take a look at some without bosses....they look nice and sleek if you're not going to use rim brakes.
And by rear stay do you mean the chain stay or the seat stay?
If you are strictly into disc brakes for a HT, why would this type of brake be needed in all but the most extreme riding situations?
bosses for attaching rim brakes. on seat stays.
they are not necessary, just an absolute enjoyment over rims brakes. take a look at some without bosses....they look nice and sleek if you're not going to use rim brakes.
Oleanshoebox
02-01-08, 08:46 PM
zion frames have no bosses. just saying. and they are on sale.
okay, okay, I am shutting up.
okay, okay, I am shutting up.
wompwomp
02-02-08, 02:38 PM
ultimate strength (stress that will generate complete failure)
Ultimate strength is really all I ever look for in my steel frames.
Ultimate strength is really all I ever look for in my steel frames.
bmalmquist
02-02-08, 03:24 PM
What are brake bosses? These facilitate what?
And by rear stay do you mean the chain stay or the seat stay?
If you are strictly into disc brakes for a HT, why would this type of brake be needed in all but the most extreme riding situations?
Marin again. Eldridge Grade Columbus and Pine Mtn. Check 'em out man. I have an Eldridge frame lying around somewhere . . . ;)
And by rear stay do you mean the chain stay or the seat stay?
If you are strictly into disc brakes for a HT, why would this type of brake be needed in all but the most extreme riding situations?
Marin again. Eldridge Grade Columbus and Pine Mtn. Check 'em out man. I have an Eldridge frame lying around somewhere . . . ;)
kramnnim
02-02-08, 07:34 PM
The Nashbar frame is made by Kinesis, and is the same as the
Jamis Dragon 853 frame. I've been considering this myself.
I recently bought an almost-new Dragon frame...love it. The Nashbar frame doesn't seem to look much like it, though. Seatstays are completely different...as are the dropouts, and...a lot of things, actually.
bmalmquist- Are you Ben from the REI in Charlotte? If so...I'm the guy you got the Fisher frame from today...small world, lol.
Jamis Dragon 853 frame. I've been considering this myself.
I recently bought an almost-new Dragon frame...love it. The Nashbar frame doesn't seem to look much like it, though. Seatstays are completely different...as are the dropouts, and...a lot of things, actually.
bmalmquist- Are you Ben from the REI in Charlotte? If so...I'm the guy you got the Fisher frame from today...small world, lol.
bmalmquist
02-02-08, 08:58 PM
I recently bought an almost-new Dragon frame...love it. The Nashbar frame doesn't seem to look much like it, though. Seatstays are completely different...as are the dropouts, and...a lot of things, actually.
bmalmquist- Are you Ben from the REI in Charlotte? If so...I'm the guy you got the Fisher frame from today...small world, lol.
Small world indeed. I'm gonna build that up as a rigid flip-flop singlespeed with Sun RhynoLite rims and vintage canti brakes. I can't wait. I need to find someone to anodize all my parts various bright colors.
bmalmquist- Are you Ben from the REI in Charlotte? If so...I'm the guy you got the Fisher frame from today...small world, lol.
Small world indeed. I'm gonna build that up as a rigid flip-flop singlespeed with Sun RhynoLite rims and vintage canti brakes. I can't wait. I need to find someone to anodize all my parts various bright colors.
kellefson
02-03-08, 09:31 PM
niner
Hopper
02-03-08, 10:26 PM
Ultimate strength is really all I ever look for in my steel frames.
Don't talk about things, which from my perspective, it seems you don't fully know. I could get you some polymer composites that have a very high ultimate strength, but with a low yield strength it would not be very good for a bike.
If you continue pushing something past the yield strength it will be permanently mishapen, ie the frame will be out of alignment now. Ultimate stength is the point at which necking occurs which no matter what isn't a good thing to happen.
Don't talk about things, which from my perspective, it seems you don't fully know. I could get you some polymer composites that have a very high ultimate strength, but with a low yield strength it would not be very good for a bike.
If you continue pushing something past the yield strength it will be permanently mishapen, ie the frame will be out of alignment now. Ultimate stength is the point at which necking occurs which no matter what isn't a good thing to happen.
JackTheLadd
02-05-08, 12:44 PM
I recently bought an almost-new Dragon frame...love it. The Nashbar frame doesn't seem to look much like it, though. Seatstays are completely different...as are the dropouts, and...a lot of things, actually.
bmalmquist- Are you Ben from the REI in Charlotte? If so...I'm the guy you got the Fisher frame from today...small world, lol.
As I understand it the Nashbar 853 (I have one) is made by Maxway, not Kinesis, and is not the same as the Jamis Dragon. It is very, very nice though, and a real deal!
bmalmquist- Are you Ben from the REI in Charlotte? If so...I'm the guy you got the Fisher frame from today...small world, lol.
As I understand it the Nashbar 853 (I have one) is made by Maxway, not Kinesis, and is not the same as the Jamis Dragon. It is very, very nice though, and a real deal!
dminor
02-05-08, 01:03 PM
zion frames have no bosses. just saying.I have too many bosses; my frame has fewer.
What or who would be a good source for same?Get yerself some toooobs - - I'll come over an' weldeum up forya
http://stuartwright.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/s6300099.jpg
What or who would be a good source for same?Get yerself some toooobs - - I'll come over an' weldeum up forya
http://stuartwright.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/s6300099.jpg
paul emick
02-05-08, 01:39 PM
As I understand it the Nashbar 853 (I have one) is made by Maxway, not Kinesis, and is not the same as the Jamis Dragon. It is very, very nice though, and a real deal!
I must have confused the Nashbar frame with some thing else I had looked at. Sorry for the misinformation. If I can remember who had the unbranded Kinesis frame, I'll let you know.
I must have confused the Nashbar frame with some thing else I had looked at. Sorry for the misinformation. If I can remember who had the unbranded Kinesis frame, I'll let you know.
kramnnim
02-05-08, 06:49 PM
As I understand it the Nashbar 853 (I have one) is made by Maxway, not Kinesis, and is not the same as the Jamis Dragon. It is very, very nice though, and a real deal!
Cool...have you weighed it? Just wondering how they compare...I was kind of disappointed that my Dragon is over 5 lbs... (19", with headset cups)
Cool...have you weighed it? Just wondering how they compare...I was kind of disappointed that my Dragon is over 5 lbs... (19", with headset cups)
scelia
02-05-08, 10:36 PM
The Gunnar Rock Hound is 4.2lbs RAW... It's off to the powder coater tomorrow... Candy Blue...
Frame:
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6920138-lg.jpg
Bottom Bracket:
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6920135-lg.jpg
Head Tube:
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6920139-lg.jpg
Rear Dropout:
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6920140-lg.jpg
Frame:
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6920138-lg.jpg
Bottom Bracket:
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6920135-lg.jpg
Head Tube:
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6920139-lg.jpg
Rear Dropout:
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6920140-lg.jpg
Oleanshoebox
02-05-08, 10:38 PM
leave it raw. that is hot.
kramnnim
02-06-08, 07:27 PM
What size is it?
scelia
02-06-08, 07:51 PM
What size is it?
My Gunnar? It's an 17 1/2".
My Gunnar? It's an 17 1/2".
kramnnim
02-06-08, 08:09 PM
Wow. And here the Dragon's 853 tubing is supposed to be so thin/light. Wonder how much paint weighs...
scelia
02-06-08, 09:23 PM
Wow. And here the Dragon's 853 tubing is supposed to be so thin/light. Wonder how much paint weighs...
The paint on the Gunnar weighed in at 0.2lbs (frame with paint weighed in at 4.4lbs before stripping)... The powder coating will be even less weight and much more durable. Interesting, True Temper tubes in the front triangle are 0.8mm thick at the ends and 0.5mm thick in the center, the Reynolds 853 tubes are 0.9mm at each end and 0.6mm in the center (http://www.truetemper.com/performance_tubing/ox.asp, http://www.reynoldscycles.co.uk/downloads/PARTLIST.pdf). The Reynolds had a yield strength of 180,000-210,000 psi, while the Tru Temper has a yield strength of 185,000 psi. Both are similar, but the Reynolds tubes are thicker. This might account for some of the weight.
Stay tuned for an update Sunday... When I pick up the frame from the powder coaters... Candy Blue with metallic flake.
The paint on the Gunnar weighed in at 0.2lbs (frame with paint weighed in at 4.4lbs before stripping)... The powder coating will be even less weight and much more durable. Interesting, True Temper tubes in the front triangle are 0.8mm thick at the ends and 0.5mm thick in the center, the Reynolds 853 tubes are 0.9mm at each end and 0.6mm in the center (http://www.truetemper.com/performance_tubing/ox.asp, http://www.reynoldscycles.co.uk/downloads/PARTLIST.pdf). The Reynolds had a yield strength of 180,000-210,000 psi, while the Tru Temper has a yield strength of 185,000 psi. Both are similar, but the Reynolds tubes are thicker. This might account for some of the weight.
Stay tuned for an update Sunday... When I pick up the frame from the powder coaters... Candy Blue with metallic flake.
kramnnim
02-07-08, 05:38 AM
Cool. Can't wait to see the pics. How do the Rockhound frames compare when it comes to price? I'm assuming they must retail for more than the Dragon's $750ish... (if anyone actually pays full retail...)
scelia
02-07-08, 07:42 AM
The Rock Hound retails for $800 (http://www.gunnarbikes.com/rockhound.php). One sold on eBay recently for $257. They do not show up often, but deals can be found.
Bike Lover
02-07-08, 10:21 AM
KHS has one if you're looking for a 29er.
scelia
02-10-08, 07:13 PM
I picked up the Rock Hound from the Powder Coater today... It sure looks nice. I should have it rebuilt by Friday (I am waiting for some parts in the mail). Here is the frame and some re-assembly...
After unwrapping.
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6937035-lg.jpg
Re-assembly has begun...
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6937036-lg.jpg
After unwrapping.
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6937035-lg.jpg
Re-assembly has begun...
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6937036-lg.jpg
mx_599
02-10-08, 07:38 PM
looks nice!
scelia
02-10-08, 08:53 PM
Thanks. I am hoping to get some decent pictures in better light soon.
kramnnim
02-10-08, 09:01 PM
Mmm, that's nice. How much did the powdercoat cost?
scelia
02-10-08, 10:20 PM
Mmm, that's nice. How much did the powdercoat cost?
I got the frame chemically stripped for $25 and the powder coating cost $100. Waterford (the parent company of Gunnar) charges $300 to repaint a frame (does include decals).
I got the frame chemically stripped for $25 and the powder coating cost $100. Waterford (the parent company of Gunnar) charges $300 to repaint a frame (does include decals).
scelia
02-11-08, 12:10 AM
Here is another picture that shows the metal flake in the powder coat a little better...
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6937956-lg.jpg
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6937956-lg.jpg
kramnnim
02-11-08, 05:49 PM
Is there a clearcoat on top? How much less does it weigh than the old paint?
(Sorry...I really don't know anything about powedercoating...I always thought it was the rough, bumpy "paint" on things like some lawn/outdoor furniture, etc...)
(Sorry...I really don't know anything about powedercoating...I always thought it was the rough, bumpy "paint" on things like some lawn/outdoor furniture, etc...)