Advocacy & Safety - Argument about cyclist following traffic laws

Figured this would interest many of you. Link (http://reddit.com/info/678t6/comments/).

Woken up by a group of cyclists talking as they pass his house Saturday morning.

What could be worse?

When I'm leading club rides in residential areas, I try to yell the commands loud enough for people in their homes to hear.

where I live I would say about 98% of the traffic
doesnt obey laws in the passive, semi un- threatening way...
Rolling 15mph over the speed limit, never using indicators, etc.
What is scary is the percentage who are dangerously agressive.
I would rate that at about 25%. So for every bicycle in my area
I see, I also see about 25 cars doing something that could cause
serious bodily injury, but cyclists are the what these people worry
about.
Yeah, I get it :rolleyes:

Woken up by a group of cyclists talking as they pass his house Saturday morning.

What could be worse?

For that person, I'm guessing a lot, like profanity on tv, vulgar images, gays, teens, single mothers, the internet, kittens, rain, wind, bm's, and of course pupppies.

“Sorry if we got in your way back there. I wanted to catch you and apologize and try to make sure you didn’t drive away mad and take it out on the next bike you see. It’s dangerous for us when drivers are mad. You can kill us.”That a great way to educate people and make them look like such a badguy for being angry, ha ha!

Apparently they usually apologize too, which shows that they've probably learned something, and probably a bit of respect.

Looks like all the usual diatribes.

Oh Woes! Cyclists shouldn't be on the road!

Oh Woes! Cyclists shouldn't be on the footpath!

Oh Woes! Cyclists go too slow and delay cars!

Oh Woes! Cyclists go too fast and startle pedestrians!

You can't reason with these people. Just ridicule them, and move on.

Ride right. Be visible. Assume that the unexpected is going to happen. If you're in such a hurry that you need to ignore danger, find another way to get there 'cause no bicycle is that fast. Pity the riders that don't have the energy to accelerate from a stop more than once or twice during a ride.(The nonsense of justifying running signs and signals because it means one must pedal harder from a stop.)

As an equal opportunity rider, I see just as many dumb performances by bikers as I see by car drivers.

The craziest are those that think that they have the right to challenge bigger vehicles for space on the road. Kind of reminds me of all those little dogs with big barks.

Best way to enjoy cycling and surtvive....be a COWARD!

where I live I would say about 98% of the traffic
doesnt obey laws in the passive, semi un- threatening way...
Rolling 15mph over the speed limit, never using indicators, etc.
What is scary is the percentage who are dangerously agressive.
I would rate that at about 25%. So for every bicycle in my area
I see, I also see about 25 cars doing something that could cause
serious bodily injury, but cyclists are the what these people worry
about.
Yeah, I get it :rolleyes:

Yep, lately I've taken to counting the number of cars that make FULL stops at stop signs (much easier counting the ones that stop than the ones that don't), you know, the wheels at a complete stop that is technically how you are supposed to do it. If I get past one, its unusual.

The "obey stop sign laws to the letter of the law" nannies on the forum need to wake up. As long as a cyclist (or a car for that matter) doesn't interfere with anyone's right of way when they roll through a stop, no harm no foul. Its just the way traffic flows. So why shouldn't cyclists do the same thing as cars and flow with traffic?

[QUOTE=
The "obey stop sign laws to the letter of the law" nannies on the forum need to wake up. As long as a cyclist (or a car for that matter) doesn't interfere with anyone's right of way when they roll through a stop, no harm no foul. Its just the way traffic flows. So why shouldn't cyclists do the same thing as cars and flow with traffic?[/QUOTE]

Can we assume that you plan to teach your children that the laws are negotiable? They are, but not moment by moment.

Typical position...if it's inconvenient, I'll just proceed since everyone else does it.

Anarchist?

And quoting Robin Hood???

Yep, lately I've taken to counting the number of cars that make FULL stops at stop signs (much easier counting the ones that stop than the ones that don't), you know, the wheels at a complete stop that is technically how you are supposed to do it. If I get past one, its unusual.

The "obey stop sign laws to the letter of the law" nannies on the forum need to wake up. As long as a cyclist (or a car for that matter) doesn't interfere with anyone's right of way when they roll through a stop, no harm no foul. Its just the way traffic flows. So why shouldn't cyclists do the same thing as cars and flow with traffic?

Hey I follow the laws as best I can no matter what vehicle I'm driving.

Al

Can we assume that you plan to teach your children that the laws are negotiable? They are, but not moment by moment.

Typical position...if it's inconvenient, I'll just proceed since everyone else does it.

Anarchist?

And quoting Robin Hood???

We are not talking about laws against electrocuting live puppies or throwing little old ladies in front of moving trains, we are talking about traffic rules that are designed to promote an orderly flow of traffic for the sake of safety. Traffic rules are not moral imperatives, they are rules just like a myriad of other minor rules we deal with every day.

If there is no traffic to interfere with, then how does violation of a rule rule have any effect on SAFETY, which is what traffic laws are all about?

The craziest are those that think that they have the right to challenge bigger vehicles for space on the road. Kind of reminds me of all those little dogs with big barks.

Best way to enjoy cycling and surtvive....be a COWARD!

Your law-of-the-jungle analogy is inconsistent with traffic laws, which state cyclists have equal right to the road.

Which is odd, given how much following stop signs, another traffic law, seems to mean to you.

Your law-of-the-jungle analogy is inconsistent with traffic laws, which state cyclists have equal right to the road.

.

Which law of the jungle?

We are not talking about laws against electrocuting live puppies or throwing little old ladies in front of moving trains, we are talking about traffic rules that are designed to promote an orderly flow of traffic for the sake of safety. Traffic rules are not moral imperatives, they are rules just like a myriad of other minor rules we deal with every day.

If there is no traffic to interfere with, then how does violation of a rule rule have any effect on SAFETY, which is what traffic laws are all about?

Sounds like the tree falls theory. If I won't get caught it must be okay. Sure, it's reasonable to assume it's okay if no one else is impacted.

Creating a habit is difficult. Breaking one is easy.

Oops! I guess there was someone else was approaching. Too bad I didn't see them until it was too late.

Yep, lately I've taken to counting the number of cars that make FULL stops at stop signs (much easier counting the ones that stop than the ones that don't), you know, the wheels at a complete stop that is technically how you are supposed to do it. If I get past one, its unusual.

The "obey stop sign laws to the letter of the law" nannies on the forum need to wake up. As long as a cyclist (or a car for that matter) doesn't interfere with anyone's right of way when they roll through a stop, no harm no foul. Its just the way traffic flows. So why shouldn't cyclists do the same thing as cars and flow with traffic?

I do this too. If you include coming to a full stop at or behind the white line, the count on my little 4 mile commute is often zero.

Best way to enjoy cycling and surtvive....be a COWARD!



Cowardice, no, knowing when to choose your battles, yes. Whenever I have done what I deem as cowardly acts when riding my bicycle, it seems to entice an even more boorish nature from motorists around me, sort of like when a dog senses your fear.

Which law of the jungle?

I'll spell it out.

The clever "small yappy dog" remark combined with your explicit disdain for cyclists that "think that they have the right to challenge bigger vehicles for space on the road".

They don't just think they have the right to space on the road, they are legally entitled to it. The size of the vehicle is utterly irrelevant.

If you want to hide in the gutter, knock yourself out. But your position has no legal basis, and a dubious basis in safety.

Ride right. Be visible. Assume that the unexpected is going to happen. If you're in such a hurry that you need to ignore danger, find another way to get there 'cause no bicycle is that fast. Pity the riders that don't have the energy to accelerate from a stop more than once or twice during a ride.(The nonsense of justifying running signs and signals because it means one must pedal harder from a stop.)

As an equal opportunity rider, I see just as many dumb performances by bikers as I see by car drivers.

The craziest are those that think that they have the right to challenge bigger vehicles for space on the road. Kind of reminds me of all those little dogs with big barks.

Best way to enjoy cycling and surtvive....be a COWARD!

No, being a coward can get you killed. If you are riding in a narrow lane, too narrow for both a bike and a car at the same time, and you are cowering by the gutter out of fear, you are inviting cars to make unsafe passes and exposing yourself to right hooks.

Riding assertively is actually safer. Now of course, you have to be very aware and if someone is going to violate your right of way, you give it to them. But when its safe to do so, asserting your right of way and taking the whole lane when appropriate is safer.

[/B]

No, being a coward can get you killed. If you are riding in a narrow lane, too narrow for both a bike and a car at the same time, and you are cowering by the gutter out of fear, you are inviting cars to make unsafe passes and exposing yourself to right hooks.

Riding assertively is actually safer. Now of course, you have to be very aware and if someone is going to violate your right of way, you give it to them. But when its safe to do so, asserting your right of way and taking the whole lane when appropriate is safer.

Yeah, I basically agree with this line of thinking. I find myself all too often working very hard on my ten mile commute, just to stay ahead of the fray. I find that riding hard and aggressive gets me seen, as well as gets me out of the danger zones.

Yeah, I basically agree with this line of thinking. I find myself all too often working very hard on my ten mile commute, just to stay ahead of the fray. I find that riding hard and aggressive gets me seen, as well as gets me out of the danger zones.


But the reality is that this type of "hard work" is what isolates cycling from "the masses." Folks don't want to put that much effort (either mental or physical) into "going to work."

Thus it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy that cycling is "hard work." We work to function in an environment that is not friendly to us, and prevail at it in such a way as to make it look difficult to others.

Dogonnit...I know all of you! You're the ones who think ego trumps sense. Since I do about 15,000 miles a year on my little roadie and have yet to have a serious encounter with another vehicle of any kind, my riding style must be wrong. "Proving" that one has as much right to the road as any other vehicle is a tactic taken by a lot of 'small' people so I can see how you're offended by the little dog big bark example.
My biggest danger has always been bad practices...I don't expect very much from car drivers.

[/B]

No, being a coward can get you killed. If you are riding in a narrow lane, too narrow for both a bike and a car at the same time, and you are cowering by the gutter out of fear, you are inviting cars to make unsafe passes and exposing yourself to right hooks.

Riding assertively is actually safer. Now of course, you have to be very aware and if someone is going to violate your right of way, you give it to them. But when its safe to do so, asserting your right of way and taking the whole lane when appropriate is safer.

Evidently your definition of coward must be the one from old cowboy movies. My definition has to do with using good judgement, not challenging automobiles, taking the lane when appropriate but never letting anger or ego supercede sense even when in the right.

^^ you'll never make it big here in A&S then :D

^^ you'll never make it big here in A&S then :D

I guess instead of posting, I'll go riding...I'll show those motorized monsters who's boss!:D

Since I do about 15,000 miles a year on my little roadie and have yet to have a serious encounter with another vehicle of any kind, my riding style must be wrong.

The drivers on your planet may be a lot nicer than they are here. By the way, what's the conversion of your miles to earth miles?

The drivers on your planet may be a lot nicer than they are here. By the way, what's the conversion of your miles to earth miles?

One earth mile is equivalent to one Scriptworld foot. Of course, the average height of a Scriptilian is 4.2 inches. The drivers first have to ride a bicycle for 10 to 15 years before they can take a drivers test. But even with that, most car drivers still forget where they came from. Wait a minute! Don't most earthlings learn how to ride a bicycle first? And aren't they trained to be agressive and ignore signs and signals because they 'have the same rights' as the car drivers?

Fifteen. Nice. There are pros that don't ride that far in a year.

Fifteen. Nice. There are pros that don't ride that far in a year.

Pretty perceptive for a little dog.

Word.

Good to know you've figured out the whole crowd here two weeks after joining.

Regardless on how many miles one rides a year, sometimes you have to stand up for your rights. For example, last night I had a motorist closely tailgate me for a few blocks. The motorist had two open adjacent lanes, and I had to pass a long row of parked cars, should have I quickly pulled in to the nearst open parking spot and stopped to let him by?

Regardless on how many miles one rides a year, sometimes you have to stand up for your rights. For example, last night I had a motorist closely tailgate me for a few blocks. The motorist had two open adjacent lanes, and I had to pass a long row of parked cars, should have I quickly pulled in to the nearst open parking spot and stopped to let him by?

Yep

^^^ No.

Word.

Good to know you've figured out the whole crowd here two weeks after joining.

No, just those that always have the answer.

Confession...tried working, tried fishing, tried golfing, tried bowling, etc. Turned out they were all too easy. Bicycling is the most difficult endeavor and I have a great respect for all who do.

Sorry if I offended you or anyone else. Since I've only been part of this forum for a week or two, I have no right to have an opinion, particularly one that doesn't match the community's.

I'll try harder to toe the party line.

Regardless on how many miles one rides a year, sometimes you have to stand up for your rights. For example, last night I had a motorist closely tailgate me for a few blocks. The motorist had two open adjacent lanes, and I had to pass a long row of parked cars, should have I quickly pulled in to the nearst open parking spot and stopped to let him by?

I'd more likely slow, slow, slow down, eventually into a trackstand.

^^ please dont. Read, interpret advice, join in debate, but please don't just blend in because you feel you must.

No point having a forum if everyone just agrees, or continues to have the same disagreements between the same individuals.

No, just those that always have the answer.

Confession...tried working, tried fishing, tried golfing, tried bowling, etc. Turned out they were all too easy. Bicycling is the most difficult endeavor and I have a great respect for all who do.

Sorry if I offended you or anyone else. Since I've only been part of this forum for a week or two, I have no right to have an opinion, particularly one that doesn't match the community's.

I'll try harder to toe the party line.

You didnt know ? Posting here makes you an expert.
The more posts you put up your experticity rise accordingly........

A good way to speed along the process might be to start a "do you take the lane"
or " My brothers bestest friends sisters brother got hurt cuz of his helmet" thread.

:beer:

A good way to speed along the process might be to start a "do you take the lane"
or " My brothers bestest friends sisters brother got hurt cuz of his helmet" thread.

:beer:

Wow! How didja know I was gunna ask those questions? You must be the most intelligentest of all on the forum.:D

Yep



That answer would only apply if the motorist started ramming my bicycle.

...at which point its too late.

That answer would only apply if the motorist started ramming my bicycle.
By that point it would have been too late to pull over.

If a vehicle is making you feel unsafe, get the hell out of it's way, it's not worth your well being to "prove a point" that the driver will never get. Unless you really think your life is so little value that you'll throw it away to some idiot who is impatient.

I read this article when it first came out on the site and I remember thinking "he's full of himself, and incredibly good at defusing situations." He didn't have to apologize to the other vehicle operator for breaking the law: No one caught him; this is how traffic law works these days.

He did anyway. And these brilliant motorists can't see through the egotism to realize the only thing he did wrong was run a stop sign in a group ride. Then they run off at the mouth decrying all cyclists, "they deserve it cause they break the law!" I'd bet my hard earned cash half of them have never seen a cyclist break a law they'd read.

I'll try harder to toe the party line.

There is no party line here. We often agree on little.

But to suggest cyclists have all the responsibilities of road users (i.e. stop signs) but NOT the rights (i.e. don't take a part of the road cars might want) is not advocacy.

It's like reverse advocacy. Are you really surprised to get push back?

There is no party line here. We often agree on little.

But to suggest cyclists have all the responsibilities of road users (i.e. stop signs) but NOT the rights (i.e. don't take a part of the road cars might want) is not advocacy.

It's like reverse advocacy. Are you really surprised to get push back?

Okay, I like the reverse advocacy position... YES I do suggest cyclists have all the responsibilities of road users as well as the rights. Having rights is vastly different from making dumb decisions because 'I have the right'. Not taking a part of the road doesn't compute. If ones rides with the idea of getting somewhere while minimizing risk, decisions are more about 'what makes sense to me'. Or take the zealot approach of 'it's my road, too, so I'll just occupy whatever space I want' thereby proving what the majority or car drivers already think is true....that all bikers are jackasses with no regard for safety and think they own the road. Granted, there are many car drivers (sadly many 50+ers ) who for some reason just hate cyclists. It achieves nothing to become a statistic to prove you have the same rights as a car.

Let me apologize in advance for offending whomever gets offended. :rolleyes:

Let me apologize in advance for offending whomever gets offended. :rolleyes:

It sounds like your 15,000 mile a year statistic is what pissed people off. Seriously, do you use a cyclo-computer to calculate this?
If you sustain 20 miles an hour you claim you ride an average of two hours a day? Are you a messenger? Or do you just have a _lot_ of free time?


Anyway, I can completely understand people who run stop signs (slowly). In some cities there's a ridiculous use of stop signs! No city will be a through street, it's irritating now matter what your vehicle is. Unless you're a kid who follows no laws and runs in the streets for fun. Or a parent who runs said suburb.

Luckily for me I live in a town that uses far too few stop signs.

People who run stop lights irk me. No matter what vehicle they operate.

There is no party line here. We often agree on little.
But to suggest cyclists have all the responsibilities of road users (i.e. stop signs) but NOT the rights (i.e. don't take a part of the road cars might want) is not advocacy.

It's like reverse advocacy. Are you really surprised to get push back?

No we don't.

I do my absolute best to work with motorist on my commutes, but there's no way that I can appease all of them 100 percent of the time. Years ago I tried the 100 percent appeasment routine, but all it did was to add to my commute time, stress and frustration levels. Now, by being more assertive for my rights, my commutes are quicker and go more smoothly. Maybe my riding charateristics may not be agreeable with other cyclists, but it works for me. I'm not out to "prove a point", but refering to the other night, to make a quick move into a open parking spot, and possibly getting clipped by a tailgater motorist may not have been the best option at the time either.

Or take the zealot approach of 'it's my road, too, so I'll just occupy whatever space I want' thereby proving what the majority or car drivers already think is true....that all bikers are jackasses with no regard for safety and think they own the road.

That's a lovely strawman argument that you've created. Too bad no one on this forum has ever suggested occupying any space one wants. If a cyclist has a justifiable reason to be further left than the rightmost couple of feet of the roadway, they have every right to be there. That is all that has been suggested.

^^^ No strawman. 'Justifcation' differs.
To some people a meteor crater is what they take a lane for.
To others, a meteor crater that might be there is what they lane
take for.

^^^ No strawman. 'Justifcation' differs.
To some people a meteor crater is what they take a lane for.
To others, a meteor crater that might be there is what they lane
take for.

Of course cyclists differ (we'd have little to discuss here otherwise). One thing many (both cyclists and motorists) forget is that the roads are for public use. No one has any more right to be there than anyone else (save for emergency situations). That's why there are laws about impeding the flow of traffic, to allow the slowpokes (like me) full use of the roads like they deserve but to keep them from overly slowing down the flow of traffic.