Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - Last night was full of Fail...

I know you aren't supposed to talk about your girlfriend in front of your wife, but there is another cycling forum I post at. Some members there have been putting together a series of greenway rides every Wednesday night. I've never attended but I have a greenway bike so I wanted to try it for a while. Yesterday one member posted that he was nursing an ankle injury so he would be riding slower than usual. Excellent I thought, I always ride by myself but this is my chance to enjoy the company of others while on two wheels. I've never met any of these forum people in real life but they posted it would be a "relaxed pace" ride so I went.

Big mistake.

I showed up at the starting point and started unloading my bike. There were 5 or 6 other people there decked out in full thermal gear unloading bikes that cost twice but weighed half of what mine did. No one even looked up when I pulled in so to make sure I was in the correct place I pedaled over and asked one of the guys if this was the ride I was looking for. He said it was but immediately went back to whatever he was doing in the back of his SUV. I just kind of stood there awkwardly as the other people talked got their bikes and gear together. No one really ever introduced themselves or even troubled themselves to say hello to me. I just stood around, awkwardly, in the cold, hoping that maybe once we started riding it would get better.

Just before we pulled out of the parking lot one guy pedaled over and informed me that this was a "loveless ride" and that if i couldn't keep up I'd be dropped. Fair enough I thought to myself, as long as the pace is "relaxed" I'll be fine. We rolled out of the parking lot and I positioned myself at the back of the pack, we started at about 12-15mph but within a half mile the pace was increasing to the high teens/low 20's. Within the next mile I'd fallen back out of sight of the other riders. I considered just cutting my losses and riding back to the car but instead I pedaled my arse off and caught back up to them in about another mile down the trail. As soon as I was behind the group again they sped up and took off. So again I was left to ride alone, in the dark, w/ temps in the low teens. I tried to rally again and catch the group but my right calf began cramping causing an unscheduled and not-so-graceful dismount and my toes had stabbing pains from the cold (i don't have shoe covers). I walked the cramp off and kept riding but at my own, much slower pace. I rode on alone for about 4 or 5 more miles but my leg still hurt and it was obvious that the group was gone. As I turned around to pedal back to my car, my left foot began to cramp. I just wanted to be back at the car so I rode on in spite of the cramp and eventually my foot went completely numb except for a stabbing pain from the cold in a few of my toes. It was very dark on the greenway and my dynamo and aux lights did little to give me confidence at any speed. I rode the long way back to the car to avoid some very slick muddy patches I had crossed early in the ride. I loaded up my bike and went home, cold, tired, sore, and very humble. My toes are a little frostbitten but i think they'll recover.
My ego on the other hand, is irreparably damaged.

A list of last nights Fail broken down by responsible party:

Ryan's Fail:
• trying to ride with people who are much faster than I am
• bringing a knife to a gun fight (my bike vs. the bikes of others in attendance)
• thinking it was a good idea to go riding with a group of strangers, in the dark, when it is 20something degrees out.
• lack of shoe covers [MegaFail]

Forum Members Fail:
• misrepresenting the ride as being "relaxed pace"
• going that extra mile to make sure it is awkward and unwelcoming for the new guy (not a single "hey glad you could make it" or "Hi, I'm So-and-so")

Act of God Fail:
• total darkness in the woods before 7PM
• temps in the low teens w/ bicycle induced wind chill

Sorry to here about your bad experience with the club. Here is my experience- http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=365505&highlight=barabus Usually, the mid week rides are drop rides. Maybe you should look for a Sunday, no drop ride. For some of the animals, low twenties is a relaxed pace since they pull at 30. I think that if I would have tried a Tuesday ride with the same club then it would have turned out a whole lot different. In most clubs you have to work your way up from the Sunday slow (but not too slow) recovery ride to the Saturday (I'm a main stream club rider now) ride to the mid week (I'm an elite club rider). Along the way you make friendships and pay your dues.

Wow. That sucked. Forget the Sunday ride with those 'hats. I'd look for another club (or start your own).

I don't understand the attitude of serious bikers.

Wow. That sucked. Forget the Sunday ride with those 'hats. I'd look for another club (or start your own).

I don't understand the attitude of serious bikers.

What is the "attitude" of a serious biker? From how I see it, it was a mid-week ride, the riders are usually scrambling to get there from work. The culture of a mid week ride is not very social but one of business. Weekday time is hard to come by so lets make the most of this workout. Those same guys on a Sunday or Saturday ride could be friendly as can be.

To be honest, it sounds like they started off at their normal pace and then sped up to lose you, then slowed back down to their normal pace and you caught them again. So yeah, maybe it is a relaxed ride if you're not there. But seriously, if the group is like that, why would anyone want to ride with them?

I know you aren't supposed to talk about your girlfriend in front of your wife, but there is another cycling forum I post at. Some members there have been putting together a series of greenway rides every Wednesday night. I've never attended but I have a greenway bike so I wanted to try it for a while. Yesterday one member posted that he was nursing an ankle injury so he would be riding slower than usual. Excellent I thought, I always ride by myself but this is my chance to enjoy the company of others while on two wheels. I've never met any of these forum people in real life but they posted it would be a "relaxed pace" ride so I went.

Big mistake.

I showed up at the starting point and started unloading my bike. There were 5 or 6 other people there decked out in full thermal gear unloading bikes that cost twice but weighed half of what mine did. No one even looked up when I pulled in so to make sure I was in the correct place I pedaled over and asked one of the guys if this was the ride I was looking for. He said it was but immediately went back to whatever he was doing in the back of his SUV. I just kind of stood there awkwardly as the other people talked got their bikes and gear together. No one really ever introduced themselves or even troubled themselves to say hello to me. I just stood around, awkwardly, in the cold, hoping that maybe once we started riding it would get better.

Just before we pulled out of the parking lot one guy pedaled over and informed me that this was a "loveless ride" and that if i couldn't keep up I'd be dropped. Fair enough I thought to myself, as long as the pace is "relaxed" I'll be fine. We rolled out of the parking lot and I positioned myself at the back of the pack, we started at about 12-15mph but within a half mile the pace was increasing to the high teens/low 20's. Within the next mile I'd fallen back out of sight of the other riders. I considered just cutting my losses and riding back to the car but instead I pedaled my arse off and caught back up to them in about another mile down the trail. As soon as I was behind the group again they sped up and took off. So again I was left to ride alone, in the dark, w/ temps in the low teens. I tried to rally again and catch the group but my right calf began cramping causing an unscheduled and not-so-graceful dismount and my toes had stabbing pains from the cold (i don't have shoe covers). I walked the cramp off and kept riding but at my own, much slower pace. I rode on alone for about 4 or 5 more miles but my leg still hurt and it was obvious that the group was gone. As I turned around to pedal back to my car, my left foot began to cramp. I just wanted to be back at the car so I rode on in spite of the cramp and eventually my foot went completely numb except for a stabbing pain from the cold in a few of my toes. It was very dark on the greenway and my dynamo and aux lights did little to give me confidence at any speed. I rode the long way back to the car to avoid some very slick muddy patches I had crossed early in the ride. I loaded up my bike and went home, cold, tired, sore, and very humble. My toes are a little frostbitten but i think they'll recover.
My ego on the other hand, is irreparably damaged.

A list of last nights Fail broken down by responsible party:

Ryan's Fail:
• trying to ride with people who are much faster than I am
• bringing a knife to a gun fight (my bike vs. the bikes of others in attendance)
• thinking it was a good idea to go riding with a group of strangers, in the dark, when it is 20something degrees out.
• lack of shoe covers [MegaFail]

Forum Members Fail:
• misrepresenting the ride as being "relaxed pace"
• going that extra mile to make sure it is awkward and unwelcoming for the new guy (not a single "hey glad you could make it" or "Hi, I'm So-and-so")

Act of God Fail:
• total darkness in the woods before 7PM
• temps in the low teens w/ bicycle induced wind chill

Actually relaxed pace is relative, if your normal pace is 40MPH then 25MPH may be, in fact, a relaxed pace. Clubs and forums need to say what they mean by what kind of ride, so that new folks know what they mean, for example one local club has it defined on their web site under ride classifications (http://www.tbn.ca/cycling/rc.htm).

The value of your bike has little to do with it.

Where you actually failed:

Not finding out what "relaxed pace" really means,
Not being dressed properly for conditions.
Not being properly equipped for conditions.
Not realizing they were a bunch of roadie snots.

It sucks to hear that you were treated like that. I guess it is a good reminder that we ask what someone means by "relaxed." How much talking had you done with these guys before you went and rode with them? Did they chat well with other people on the forum? Sometimes that is a good clue as to how they are going to act with others. It would have been nice if they would have been friendlier with you.

If you are going to cheat make sure they are prettier then the rest of the guys on this section;) I would say me but that does not take much:)

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I was mistaken in my wording. I went back and checked the thread, i was incorrect in my phrasing, the ride was described as a "leisurely paced effort".

Actually relaxed pace is relative, if your normal pace is 40MPH then 25MPH may be, in fact, a relaxed pace.

This ride is just a loose formation of riders who live around here, it is not a sanctioned club with a leader or rules or anything, just a casual thing some of the forum members do sometimes on Wednesday nights.


Not finding out what "relaxed pace" really means,

I did ask. I was told quote: "leisurely paced effort" would be defined as something slightly slower than the lead group. I could not get anyone to offer a more precise answer. (like avg. mph or something)

Not being dressed properly for conditions.

I don't own shoe covers, i admitted this was my own fault and I don't blame the other riders for my cold feet. Other than cold feet I had on a pair of aerotech pro shorts, non-cycling thermal tights, an under-armor shirt, a long sleeved T shirt, and a polarfleece jacket, cycling gloves w/ liners, and a baklava. Other than my toes, I was toasty warm.

Not being properly equipped for conditions.

Not sure what this means? I brought my 08 Raleigh Detour Deluxe to a ride on a greenway. If I'm not mistaken, this would be one of the finest production bicycles available for a "leisurely paced effort" on a greenway trail?

Not realizing they were a bunch of roadie snots.

roadie, cyclocross, and MTB snots. Almost everyone there was on a cross bike w/ high end components.

I did receive the following PM from one of the riders:

I hope you made it back safely last night? It's not our intention to drop or leave fellow riders behind. I guess in the future we should make it more clear as to the pace and motivation of our greenway rides. It's just difficult to explain as a mph/avg pace estimate doesn't translate regarding urban rides. I saw you at the Neyland crossing and we waited to regroup at Calhoun's but after several minutes we assumed you went in a different direction? Anyway, it was nice meeting you and I hope you had a good ride despite our rudeness.

Reminds me of my favorite Mark Twain quote when asked to join a club: "I refuse to join any organization that would accept me as a member."

Pace is a very personal thing. The same problem believe it or not is present in motorcycle clubs. Having ridden a motorcycle for over 30 years I have been in many clubs and groups. That being said, I can rarely ride with any of them. Some go too fast, some too slow, some stop all the time, some never stop. In the end, 99.9% of my riding is by myself....

In this case, it seems like you ran into a group of jerks (I would use stronger words, but not on a public list). You are better off without them. Their loss.

I've never met any of these forum people in real life but they posted it would be a "relaxed pace" ride so I went.


It sounds as if they seriously misrepresented the ride. I've been in a situation like that. Bicycle Club of Philadelphia held a "beginner's instructional ride" in which I was dropped. While I did raise heck with the club and they did get rid of the ride 'instructor' responsible for dropping me, my revenge has been riding well. I logged over three thousand miles last year, many of them on days BCP has canceled club rides because of the weather. Handsome Ryan, I suggest you drop those forum folks and ride well.

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I was mistaken in my wording. I went back and checked the thread, i was incorrect in my phrasing, the ride was described as a "leisurely paced effort".


This ride is just a loose formation of riders who live around here, it is not a sanctioned club with a leader or rules or anything, just a casual thing some of the forum members do sometimes on Wednesday nights.

I did ask. I was told quote: "leisurely paced effort" would be defined as something slightly slower than the lead group. I could not get anyone to offer a more precise answer. (like avg. mph or something)


Relaxed pace, leisurely paced, same difference, these are relative terms, if a group normally rides at 40MPH then 25MPH would be a leisurely pace.

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I don't own shoe covers, i admitted this was my own fault and I don't blame the other riders for my cold feet. Other than cold feet I had on a pair of aerotech pro shorts, non-cycling thermal tights, an under-armor shirt, a long sleeved T shirt, and a polarfleece jacket, cycling gloves w/ liners, and a baklava. Other than my toes, I was toasty warm.


You were the one who said you were cold, that indicates not being dressed properly, okay so it was only your feet, a couple of options, ALWAYS carry an extra pair of socks and some plastic bags, worst comes to worst, you put on a good pair of wool socks, then plastic bags, then other socks on top, then you shoes, even if your shoes are soaked, your feet should be OK,



Not sure what this means? I brought my 08 Raleigh Detour Deluxe to a ride on a greenway. If I'm not mistaken, this would be one of the finest production bicycles available for a "leisurely paced effort" on a greenway trail?



Well you said you had lighting issues, that's an equipment problem, I am not familiar with that particular bike, so I can't comment on the bike..... However obviously your definition of a "leisurely paced effort" and the groups definition of "leisurely paced effort" are not the same,


roadie, cyclocross, and MTB snots. Almost everyone there was on a cross bike w/ high end components.


Same difference, snots are snots......

Hey, if you want anymore abuse, send this over to the road forum and you will relive the ride all over again :)

Relaxed pace, leisurely paced, same difference, these are relative terms, if a group normally rides at 40MPH then 25MPH would be a leisurely pace.

You were the one who said you were cold, that indicates not being dressed properly, okay so it was only your feet, a couple of options, ALWAYS carry an extra pair of socks and some plastic bags, worst comes to worst, you put on a good pair of wool socks, then plastic bags, then other socks on top, then you shoes, even if your shoes are soaked, your feet should be OK,

Well you said you had lighting issues, that's an equipment problem, I am not familiar with that particular bike, so I can't comment on the bike..... However obviously your definition of a "leisurely paced effort" and the groups definition of "leisurely paced effort" are not the same,

Same difference, snots are snots......

You're spending 90% of your time nit-picking him for something that he never once blamed on anyone else.

One real issue is people misrepresenting the ride. Your straw man about 40mph (like anyone rides that fast) is meaningless, because before the ride he was told 'leisurely paced effort' but when he arrived it was 'a loveless ride and he'd be dropped.' Those are complete contradictions in tone and in spirit.

Another real issue is people being jerks. Seriously, not saying hello is about as rude as one can get. That has nothing to do with the ride and everything to do with being self-absorbed and selfish.

He has every right to be offended by those two things. With your doggedly dismissive tone, however, I don't think you'd really understand that.

You're spending 90% of your time nit-picking him for something that he never once blamed on anyone else.

One real issue is people misrepresenting the ride. Your straw man about 40mph (like anyone rides that fast) is meaningless, because before the ride he was told 'leisurely paced effort' but when he arrived it was 'a loveless ride and he'd be dropped.' Those are complete contradictions in tone and in spirit.

Another real issue is people being jerks. Seriously, not saying hello is about as rude as one can get. That has nothing to do with the ride and everything to do with being self-absorbed and selfish.

He has every right to be offended by those two things. With your doggedly dismissive tone, however, I don't think you'd really understand that.

Gee, speaking of picking nit... Your picking nits in the way your accusing me of picking nits. I don't get it, now your blaming his poor ride experience on me. Heck I can't even think of riding today, it's snowing and we expect 25cm by midnight, although given that we have 5cm already, we may blow past that 25cm quite easily.

If the OP takes nothing else from the experience, the next time they plan a ride with a group of strangers, he will ask about pace (i.e. how long is the ride, how much time will it take, (you can get average speed from that) and what is your rule about dropping. If a ride is 25 miles, and will be completed in under an hour, and it's a loveless ride, then maybe, it's not worth going unless you like that pace and style of ride.

If the OP takes nothing else from the experience, the next time they plan a ride with a group of strangers, he will ask about pace (i.e. how long is the ride, how much time will it take, (you can get average speed from that) and what is your rule about dropping. If a ride is 25 miles, and will be completed in under an hour, and it's a loveless ride, then maybe, it's not worth going unless you like that pace and style of ride.


You are entitled to your oppinion and I'm not trying to fuel an argument, but I do want to clarify-

I tried my best to find out what the pace of the ride was before going and no one would tell me. The ride was advertised as a "leisurely paced effort" of about 25-30 miles of greenway and city riding with a stop for beer at a pub on the return trip. Any greenway ride with beer consumption mid-ride sounded pretty relaxed to me so I decided to go. This is not an organised club ride, it is just a group of local cyclist who were like "Hey, is anyone else free tonight and wanna go hit the greenway for a bit".

I was not told it was a "loveless ride" until literally a minute before the group was leaving to begin the ride. I suppose I could have pedaled back to my car and driven home right then but I thought I'd at least try it since I had come all the way out there.

And finally, I'm not blaming the other riders for my inability to keep up. I'm slow, they are fast, and that is fine. What left a bad taste in my mouth, as schnee pointed out, was that they portrayed the ride as being social (going drinking) and moderatly paced but then when I arrived it turned out to be something completly different. I'm not arguing that all other riders should slow to my pace so I don't get my feeling hurt. I'm just venting my disapointed that my first attempt at riding with a group was a complete failure.

I have learned my lesson and I will not try to ride with this group again. It is nice to hear that not all cycling groups are as unwelcoming to 'recreational' cyclists.

About my bike: the Detour Deluxe, new for the 08 lineup, is Raleighs top-of-the-line hybrid/commuter/greenway/utility/fitness bike.
http://www.raleighusa.com/items.asp?deptid=7&itemid=383

These things happen, believe me. I showed up for a group social ride and yes, it was a social ride, if you were a Cat I or II Crit rider ;) After the 3rd time they had to stop to wait for me, I just told 'em to not worry and I'd be along behind. Fortunately, the ride was a route that A) I knew and B) Was marked anyway.

Social =/= slow always. ;)

Then again, it can be hard for me to ride WITH anyone, because in peak season, I'm too slow for the fast zoomers and too fast for the recreational social riders going at my natural pace. What I CAN do though is crank those pedals all day ;)

And finally, I'm not blaming the other riders for my inability to keep up. I'm slow, they are fast, and that is fine. What left a bad taste in my mouth, as schnee pointed out, was that they portrayed the ride as being social (going drinking) and moderatly paced but then when I arrived it turned out to be something completly different. I'm not arguing that all other riders should slow to my pace so I don't get my feeling hurt. I'm just venting my disapointed that my first attempt at riding with a group was a complete failure.

I have learned my lesson and I will not try to ride with this group again. It is nice to hear that not all cycling groups are as unwelcoming to 'recreational' cyclists.

About my bike: the Detour Deluxe, new for the 08 lineup, is Raleighs top-of-the-line hybrid/commuter/greenway/utility/fitness bike.
http://www.raleighusa.com/items.asp?deptid=7&itemid=383

Yeah, I admit I've done that too, and it was worse, my brother-in-law was part of the group, he and a couple of the other riders wanted to prove who was the "big dog", me at 14 years older, really did't have to prove anything to anymore, so I tagged along the back end, about a kilometer and a half behind the rider leader. I quit riding with that group, until I could get my training up to speed. Of course by the time I got there, the group had disbanded, he had quit riding, bought a motorcycle and put on 45lbs. :eek: Your group may be the same kind of thing, once you get your fitness level up and get faster, with better stamina, then you might consider riding with that group again, although if they are not friendly, then maybe you will not want to.

A couple of things you might want to consider, if you want to do cold weather riding:

1) If you have battery powered lights, keep extra batteries inside your clothing, as close to the body as possible, batteries are affected by cold, so fresh spares allow you to swap out the cold, dead batteries for fresh warm ones.

2) Keep your head covered, there is a reason why every Canadian seems to own at least one toque, 95% of heat loss is through the head. If your head is already covered, keep an extra pair of dry socks inside your clothes, nothing warms feet better then warm, dry socks.

One thing the OP should consider- since it wasn't an organized ride, maybe they could not answer your questions on pace or any other questions except route. I know every time a group of bikes that get together and the rules are not perfectly clear, the competitive nature of cycling supercedes. My two suggestions- 1) when you think 10-20 cyclists have conspired against you to drop you (not saying you did this) you should reevaluate; and 2) organize your own ride with concrete rules (social, recovery ride limited to 17mph average over 20 miles).

These things happen, believe me. I showed up for a group social ride and yes, it was a social ride, if you were a Cat I or II Crit rider ;) After the 3rd time they had to stop to wait for me, I just told 'em to not worry and I'd be along behind. Fortunately, the ride was a route that A) I knew and B) Was marked anyway.

Social =/= slow always. ;)

Then again, it can be hard for me to ride WITH anyone, because in peak season, I'm too slow for the fast zoomers and too fast for the recreational social riders going at my natural pace. What I CAN do though is crank those pedals all day ;)

So I just moved to Texas and they have an interesting take on the group ride. Every Saturday a bunch of roadies of various speeds and skill levels get together to ride a 35 miler. The first five miles, everyone rides together and then the group breaks up into usually 3 groups. For example, if you can't hang with first group (racers) they will let you hang in the back for as long as you can. If that doesn't work, you can drop off the back and pick up the slower group that is behind you and so on. The idea is to have a ride that allows people the opportunity to learn to ride in a group and to try to improve so that they can ride with a faster group.

Cascade Bike Club's pace rating system:

Easy: Under 10 mph
Leisurely: 10-12 mph (closest to "relaxed" that I can guess at)
Steady: 12-14 mph (maybe another approximation of "relaxed")
Moderate: 14-16 mph
Brisk: 16-18 mph
Strenuous: 18-21 mph
Super Strenuous: 22+ mph

Note: for rides described as HILLY, consider choosing a pace one step down from your usual comfort level


Maybe you can suggest to your local club that they adopt a similar rating system which uses not only a relative scale (relaxed, easy, really hard) but an absolute scale (miles per hour).

I noticed that there is a thread on the other forum for a "no-drop greenway ride" tonight. Several of the same members from the last ride have already posted that they will be there. I will not attending, but the weather is supposed to be nice for the first time in weeks so I may go ride by myself tonight.

Sorry to drag up a dead thread but I wanted to update with the new info.

Ryan,

There should have been someone there on that ride that should have been the ride leader. If it is a Club, they have a responsibility to help new members of the ride. Safety of the ride should be talked too, as well as Pace and the Drop-No Drop policy if applicable.

I sometimes ride with my Shop on the Tuesday Night Urban Assault ride through the city. The pace is usually pretty brisk and skills are taught during the ride. The Ride Leader always gives a brief as to the what and why of the ride. Asks about any new riders, and then finishes by counting off. All the riders should remember their number, and at various stops along the way you count back off to ensure you have everyone. If someone leaves, they let either the leader or someone near their number know that they are leaving.

The first one I went on I left early due to bonking and being unprepared. My Fault to be sure. The ride back to my car was lonely, but the ride offered to have someone ride back with me.

It helps to know the level of fitness and the speeds that the group wants to ride at. Sounds like this group is taking this more as a training ride than a ride along the greenway. It's a shame that they do this and miss out on the beauty along the way.

Keep asking around in town and see what you can find.

I noticed that there is a thread on the other forum for a "no-drop greenway ride" tonight. Several of the same members from the last ride have already posted that they will be there. I will not attending, but the weather is supposed to be nice for the first time in weeks so I may go ride by myself tonight.

Sorry to drag up a dead thread but I wanted to update with the new info.


Maybe set a goal in spring to ride at the club level. I set a goal of 100 miles a week and in 3 months I was riding with a club. I have noticed in checking out various clubs that the average speed is about 18mph for the easy ride, 22-25mph for the intermediate ride and 30+ for the advance rides. Those are group speeds on the flats. While riding in groups conserves energy, you should be pretty close to that before trying for a club, unless that club is very different from what we have here. My sister in law, who average 14-15 went for a easy, no drop club ride. She was so embarrassed on the 3rd wait that she begged the club to continue without her, however rules are rules. It was a lose/lose situation because she wished they would continue and leave her and the club did not want to stall 20 people, but the ride was no drop.

I noticed that there is a thread on the other forum for a "no-drop greenway ride" tonight. Several of the same members from the last ride have already posted that they will be there. I will not attending, but the weather is supposed to be nice for the first time in weeks so I may go ride by myself tonight.

Sorry to drag up a dead thread but I wanted to update with the new info.

It's not a dead thread. And how did your ride go?