Living Car Free - Living money-free

What's wrong with money is that I never have enough of it. :D

Seriously, economies went through this already. If you don't want to be hunters-gatherers, or a primitive clan system (in which you have a rigidly defined role you're supposed to fulfill - so much for individual freedom), you need money. Most societies until very recently have managed very fine without cars (or bikes for that matter). None, however, apart from a few isolated (and usually pretty primitive ones) managed without money. This forum scares me sometimes. You don't need to be a political wacko to live without a car... but I bet you that's not the impression this forum creates.

As Machka pointed out, living car-free typically means more money in your pocket, not less. That's one of the major reasons I do it.

Don't be too scared. I think most people envision the money free lifestyle as a goal for themselves, rather than a goal for society at large. (I could be wrong of course!)

Money is just a convenient means of exchange, kind of a glorified barter. The Bible is misquoted to say "Money is the root of all evil." IIRC, it actually says that "the LOVE of money is the root of all evil." It's really more of a psychological problem than an economic problem!

I would like to be job-free. As it is, by being carfree I work one less day per week and maintain the same standard of living as my colleagues with cars. I calculated that I could maintain my standard of living by working three days a week, but I would have to eliminate the money I give to others, and I don't want to do that.

Well, sorry again for starting an "off-topic" thread. I must say though, I'm surprised that almost all of us link car-free life with the environment, but many of us won't make the leap to talking about the economy.

I don't think you need to apologize. The Utility Cycling forum was created to provide a "politics-free" board for those who want that. I have two suggestions for people who use this forum:

First, when you start a thread, make sure the title accurately reflects the content of the thread.
Second, if the title of a thread doesn't sound interesting, don't click on it.

Don't be too scared. I think most people envision the money free lifestyle as a goal for themselves, rather than a goal for society at large. (I could be wrong of course!)
Maybe most, but certainly not all.
My impression is that there are some idealogues here who are not personally interested in putting in the work, toil or sacrifice in personal time/pleasure to earn the money needed to support a lifestyle beyond minimal (AKA "simple") and disparage those who choose to partake in those dirty activities like hard work and planning to achieve a higher living standard. Casting such lifestyle choices as black and white moral decisions is part and parcel of the sophistry employed to maintain their position on their high horse.

Don't be too scared. I think most people envision the money free lifestyle as a goal for themselves, rather than a goal for society at large. (I could be wrong of course!) I am not scared. However, given the number of political threads on here, I think many posters want the whole society to become less car dependent (which is great, I think). However, a lot of people also tend to think that "car-free" also means "money-free", "electricity-free", "civilization-free" and on and on and on.


Money is just a convenient means of exchange, kind of a glorified barter. Exactly. So, firstly I question why anyone would like to move away from it towards less convenient means of exchange. Secondly, I wonder what any of this has to do with cars or bikes.


I would like to be job-free. As it is, by being carfree I work one less day per week and maintain the same standard of living as my colleagues with cars. I calculated that I could maintain my standard of living by working three days a week, but I would have to eliminate the money I give to others, and I don't want to do that. :beer: Sounds good. :)

It is no sin to live beyond the subsistance level.

One may choose to take a 'vow of poverty', but that is a choice; not all of us are called to such a life. "There are many gifts, but the same spirit, and a variety of service but the same Lord," as the Apostle says.

It is no sin to live beyond the subsistance level.

One may choose to take a 'vow of poverty', but that is a choice; not all of us are called to such a life. "There are many gifts, but the same spirit, and a variety of service but the same Lord," as the Apostle says.

Please excuse me: I want to clarify again that I don't equate money with real wealth. Money only has value as long as it is kept in limited supply.

Ironically, we are all robbed of wealth as the Fed gives us more and more money every day. Inflation. Taxes. Interest. This is the system I'm trying to escape.

...to enslave us by debt, and I'm trying to figure out an alternative.
K,

To respond to this part of your original post: Yes, it seems that a lot of people fall into enslavements to debt (some people have called them 'debt traps').

There are certainly people who profit from this enslavement, and who promote it to serve their own interests. People are often basically tricked, and then work very hard and spend many years of their lives at it, not so differently from slaves. A lot of money is generated by this forced labor, and there are people living off of it.

It isn't entirely or exactly forced, but people fall into obligations. They don't realize what they are getting into before they sign on. They don't read the fine print or examine the consequences of their choices. It sounds like you are looking for ways of staying clear of these sorts of contracts and obligations.

Goodonya!

*******
"Wild animals have their own agendas, and their desires can play havoc with your life" may apply here as well.

There are certainly wide varieties of ways to fall into enslavements, and various individuals and companies (and states) who want this. There seem to be many alternatives as well. No one can really be forced. You never have to buy these tickets they are selling.

It seems that there is no one right answer, but rather a range of possibilities.

A non-enslaved relationship with money is among them.

Exploring money-free alternatives is another.

You might be interested in some of the writings of Peter Coyote, and approaches to free economies that are also free of money -- ones that are based on the spirit of free giving that is in most human hearts (and can be given more room and more opportunities to express itself). The Diggers have explored this and put it into practice, and there are some others as well.

You might be interested in some of the writings of Peter Coyote, and approaches to free economies that are also free of money -- ones that are based on the spirit of free giving that is in most human hearts (and can be given more room and more opportunities to express itself). The Diggers have explored this and put it into practice, and there are some others as well.

The actor?

Here is one of his books, Sleeping Where I Fall,

http://www.amazon.com/Sleeping-Where-I-Fall-Chronicle/dp/158243011X/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202250562&sr=1-6

*******
While his developing acting career and romantic misadventures comprise a great deal of the narrative, an even larger part dwells on his life as one of The Diggers, the band of anarchistic counterculturalists who fought against commercial culture's ability to co-opt the superficial elements of youthful rebellion by rejecting the very notions of ownership and extrinsic value. "The Diggers," writes Coyote, "understood that style is infinitely co-optable. What could not be co-opted was doing things for free-without money." ...Coyote recounts the lives and times of poets, actors, farmers, and philosophers who participated in a profound cultural experiment that tested....

Ironically, we are all robbed of wealth as the Fed gives us more and more money every day. Inflation. Taxes. Interest. This is the system I'm trying to escape.

Good luck with that. Perhaps there is a small community in the middle of a South American jungle where you might be able to find your escape ... but then again, if that small community has any sort of government in place, you can bet there'll be a form of taxes.

Good luck with that. Perhaps there is a small community in the middle of a South American jungle where you might be able to find your escape ... but then again, if that small community has any sort of government in place, you can bet there'll be a form of taxes.

Yeah...I'm really not happy when people tell me to leave my country. So I'll repeat what I said when somebody else suggested the same earlier in this thread, in case you missed it: I'm not a quitter.

I'm interested in helping to restore our society, not abandon it.


Also, I think you're silly for implying that a community where money has real value and people aren't victimized by their governments can only exist in a remote location.

Yeah...I'm really not happy when people tell me to leave my country. So I'll repeat what I said when somebody else suggested the same earlier in this thread, in case you missed it: I'm not a quitter.

I'm interested in helping to restore our society, not abandon it.


Also, I think you're silly for implying that a community where money has real value and people aren't victimized by their governments can only exist in a remote location.

Show me one example in the world today where money has "real value" (whatever that is) and where people aren't "victimized" by their governments.

Show me one example in the world today where money has "real value" (whatever that is) and where people aren't "victimized" by their governments.

I think a better example would be America, pre-1910, don't you?

I think a better example would be America, pre-1910, don't you?

Do you?

Do you?

Yes. If you have the time:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173

I think a better example would be America, pre-1910, don't you?

Ah, yes. Back when non-whites, immigrants, and women knew their place.

I think a better example would be America, pre-1910, don't you?

Ah, yes. Back when non-whites, immigrants, and women knew their place.

And benevolent corporation bosses took good care of their employees and working conditions were hunky dory, even for the 9 year old coal miners. Perhaps you should get your nose out of youtube and do a little serious reading. Start with The Jungle by Upton Sinclair

Yeah...I'm really not happy when people tell me to leave my country. So I'll repeat what I said when somebody else suggested the same earlier in this thread, in case you missed it: I'm not a quitter.

I'm interested in helping to restore our society, not abandon it.


Also, I think you're silly for implying that a community where money has real value and people aren't victimized by their governments can only exist in a remote location.

Not everyone agreed with Thomas Jefferson when he wrote the following (least of all the government in power at the time):

"...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security..."

That's a humdinger. Fortunately it's been hidden away in an obscure American state paper where few people pay attention to what it really says.

Yes. If you have the time:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173


Are you in high school ... or younger? I'm doing a presentation called Integrating Technology in the Classroom, next week, for one of my University classes, and if you are, I might like to mention that kids these days are getting their education from youtube, and that perhaps the emphasis should be less on integrating technology, and more on getting kids back into libraries. :D

And no, I don't have the time or ability with my current computing system.

Are you in high school ... or younger? I'm doing a presentation called Integrating Technology in the Classroom, next week, for one of my University classes, and if you are, I might like to mention that kids these days are getting their education from youtube, and that perhaps the emphasis should be less on integrating technology, and more on getting kids back into libraries. :D

And no, I don't have the time or ability with my current computing system.

Actually, I'm a college student. I hope that wasn't a veiled jab. It's not my place to tell you what to put in your presentation, but don't mention me as an example. I first saw this documentary on DVD.

And I highly recommend Aaron Russo's video. They probably have a machine that could run it at your local library, and (as you said) from there you'd be able to get more information on the themes presented. It's free and legal at the link I posted. If you would prefer a book on the topic, The Law That Never Was, by William Benson, is also a good one.

If you're active in your community, and your community is aware, and conscious, you really ought to consider a community currency, like the Ithaca dollar. Here's a link.

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/7813/ccs-ithi.htm
http://www.ithacahours.org/

During the Great Depression, which was deflationary, ie. less credit and money was available, community currencies flourished. There really isn't anything that replaces money, it's just a neutral thing that serves as a medium for exchange of goods, labor, and services. Unless we go back to using cows for trading. But my back yard couldn't take up that much. :p

Wow, that is terribly, terribly interesting. I wonder if Ithaca dollars are taxable. Do they violate the constitution?


Powers prohibited of States

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

Not that the USA (government or people) seems to care much about the constitution anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if they used it to squash such a revolutionary idea.

Here's another organization that got nabbed by the FBI for circulating their own currency:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/11/16/post_203.html
Their money was, however, backed by silver and gold and, presumably, intended to be used interstate. I wonder if these circumstances make any difference.

There must be something out there that could fill in this blank:

"Bikes are to cars as ______ is to money."

Just wish I could figure it out. I'm of the opinion that our economy in America is controlled by people who mean to enslave us by debt, and I'm trying to figure out an alternative.

Learn the simple concepts of "Enough" to learn how best to spend/save what you have without being
trapped by debt.

Way to many folk's never learn to say "NO" to themselves.

Bikes are to cars as ______ is to money.
I would say barter.I have been living the barter life style for the last 2 years and it works.The trick is to know how to do a bunch of different things.I can do roofing,siding,electrical,plumbing,some carpentry,I repair cars,motorcycles,ATVs,snowmobiles,bikes,vacuums,small and large appliances,computers.
I am in excellent health from the years of cycling,so I also work on some of the local farms when they need help.
I may not have lots of money but I've always got a full fridge and few worries.I don't have ANY debts.