Touring - Help design a touring bike for production.

I've been posting here for a while and greatly admire the level of expertise and range of opinions here. I have a small business set up and I'm looking to produce a top-notch touring bike. I have some bike building abilities and know where to find great people in my area but I don't want to trust the design to just one or two "experts" because everyone comes with their own pre-conceived notions of how to build a bike. So, taking inspiration from Open Source software design I am opening up the design phase to you all.

I've set up a website with a small forum specifically for discussions about the bike design and to help us hack out the best solution given all factors (cost, reliability, serviceability, performance, etc).

It's at MojoBike.com (http://mojobike.com) .

I hope you all will come over and participate in the discussions about each part of the bike. If you are an expert on brakes then there is a board for that, the same with frames, lighting, etc.

I realize that some of the discussions there will duplicate discussions on BF but the difference is that on the MojoBike forum we have a goal of making a producible bike with all the parts fitting together. We'll have polls to decide various elements of the bike and probably some heated debate when one component doesn't work with another. It will be fun.

I am serious about getting this bike produced and sold via the Internet (and maybe local shops eventually). I'm already working on getting discounts from vendors for parts. There may even be awards given to top contributors (buy a bike at cost).

Please note, I'm not looking to take people away from BF. The forums on MojoBike will close once a final design is worked out.

(Note, the website is so new that it may not appear for all people right away.... give it a day or so if you can't see it).

If you need design and graphics, I'd be glad to help. These samples are old, but I haven't gotten any worse. They just happen to be what I have on hand. I'd dig doing some bike graphics.

I try something in my spare time.

Very nice. The bike company name is Mojo but the bike can be named anything we like. I was trying to think of something semi-related to BikeForums without using that name itself. Maybe some word with B and F in it?

Will the bike be distributed according to Open Source too, if so I'll have one

Heh... Well, the design specs obviously won't be a secret but we're looking to make a little bit on the bike. Steep discounts for people that contribute in a meaningful way are anticipated though.

Seriously though, I'm more motivated by making something that is respected and something that you can recommend to people when they ask about what bike to buy.

Maybe all we get out of it is a parts list for a complete bike that people can build themselves but I hope to work out some quantity discounts with suppliers so that we can offer a complete bike for about the same or less than you'd spend building it yourself. After all, most people can't put a bike together from scratch. I'm anxious to see what we come up with.

Very nice. The bike company name is Mojo but the bike can be named anything we like. I was trying to think of something semi-related to BikeForums without using that name itself. Maybe some word with B and F in it?

Nice site and a great idea. Have you narrowed down the style of the bike yet, is it going to be a sport tourer, something like a LHT or a MTB/expedition tourer like a Thorn Nomad or Exxp. Maybe it will be something new.

The only decision so far is that it's to be a serious touring bike and of a standard two-wheel design (sorry recumbent fans). I'd like it to notch above the LHT and I personally like the idea of a Rohloff-equipped bike but that's not set in stone yet either.

The only decision so far is that it's to be a serious touring bike and of a standard two-wheel design (sorry recumbent fans). I'd like it to notch above the LHT and I personally like the idea of a Rohloff-equipped bike but that's not set in stone yet either.

What about a Rohloff equipped XO-1ish frame but with slightly longer chainstays.

How about a tourer w/26-inch wheels?

There have been a series of threads over at "crazyguyonabike" for the past few months for a an American-made, steel-framed tourer suitable for loaded and/or expedition-style touring but with 26-inch wheels.

The Surly LHT has 700c wheels in larger sizes; there are custom builders who do it (expensive); bikes like Thorn in Europe (expensive).

The consensus over there seems to be that your best option is to get a steel-framed mountain bike and convert it to a tourer. Would be nice to see you think about something that offers at least the option of 26 inch wheels in larger sizes at a cost that could compete with the Surly LHT (or a "notch" up, as you say, without going up to the range of other custom frames -- which seem to be about $1400 to $1600.

The only decision so far is that it's to be a serious touring bike and of a standard two-wheel design (sorry recumbent fans). I'd like it to notch above the LHT and I personally like the idea of a Rohloff-equipped bike but that's not set in stone yet either.

I posted my ideas on the site. It's a nice looking site without flash trash and thanks every so much for that!:D

You would need special dropouts for a Rohloff hub. this would necessitate Rohloff frames and standard frames. They only come with 32 holes for spokes. I would rather have a standard 26" wheels and "get parts anywhere" drive train. 40 spoke Tandem hubs and rims for bullet proof reliability is another option. Busting a spoke on the rear wheel is about the worse mechanical breakdown to fix on a tour.:(

How about a tourer w/26-inch wheels?

There have been a series of threads over at "crazyguyonabike" for the past few months for a an American-made, steel-framed tourer suitable for loaded and/or expedition-style touring but with 26-inch wheels.

The Surly LHT has 700c wheels in larger sizes; there are custom builders who do it (expensive); bikes like Thorn in Europe (expensive).

The consensus over there seems to be that your best option is to get a steel-framed mountain bike and convert it to a tourer. Would be nice to see you think about something that offers at least the option of 26 inch wheels in larger sizes at a cost that could compete with the Surly LHT (or a "notch" up, as you say, without going up to the range of other custom frames -- which seem to be about $1400 to $166).

Yeah, I am thinking that a European-style tourer for North America is the direction to go. Please enter your thoughts over on the MojoBike site so we can debate it thoroughly. There is already a thread for 700C vs 26" there.

I have already contacted Thorn and they are looking to be very easy to work with.

Yeah, I am thinking that a European-style tourer for North America is the direction to go. Please enter your thoughts over on the MojoBike site so we can debate it thoroughly. There is already a thread for 700C vs 26" there.

I have already contacted Thorn and they are looking to be very easy to work with.

OK I'll go over to Mojo, but a final idea here what about a 26" wheel, Rolhoff equipped bike similar to the new Bombadil

Great idea! My wish list includes:

1. 26" geometry available for all sizes - more easily available abroad.
2. Long wheelbase - rumored to be good for stability
3. Long chainstays - for heel clearance on panniers & stability
4. Steel frame, nice thick tubing, stiff frame for less flex under load
5. Lots of eyelets for racks, fenders etc
6. Keep It Simple - try to avoid making this yet another high-end multi-thousand dollar Uber touring machine with all the cool stuff like Rohloff. Make it a straightforward thing that uses standard parts that can be easily replaced anywhere - that's what a real touring bike should be like, in my opinion.

There are quite a few good 700C touring bikes out there (Surly LHT, Trek 520, Novara Randonee etc) but very few, if any, non-high-end, purpose built-for-touring, 26" "expedition" bikes available in the USA. So I think you'd actually be filling a niche if you did this.

Also, check out what Kogswell have to say about the rake on the fork - they favor the French style of front loading, and this is something I find very interesting. Not saying it's better, just worth taking a look at if you're designing a bike from scratch.

Just my $0.02...

Good luck!

Neil

Very good points, Neil. A custom frame is a possibility but there are a lot of perils with going that route. Let us discuss it on the MojoBike forum because that is where the decision needs to be worked out. Please post your thoughts there Neil. I value your opinion. Maybe we can find a good frame or a good (cheap) custom frame builder.

Stock, production touring bikes for very large and very small people are thin on the ground.
Thorn from sjscycles have pioneered the production of 26" and Rohloff tourers. Worth a look to see what UK riders are using.

Great idea! My wish list includes:

1. 26" geometry available for all sizes - more easily available abroad.
2. Long wheelbase - rumored to be good for stability
3. Long chainstays - for heel clearance on panniers & stability
4. Steel frame, nice thick tubing, stiff frame for less flex under load
5. Lots of eyelets for racks, fenders etc
6. Keep It Simple - try to avoid making this yet another high-end multi-thousand dollar Uber touring machine with all the cool stuff like Rohloff. Make it a straightforward thing that uses standard parts that can be easily replaced anywhere - that's what a real touring bike should be like, in my opinion.

There are quite a few good 700C touring bikes out there (Surly LHT, Trek 520, Novara Randonee etc) but very few, if any, non-high-end, purpose built-for-touring, 26" "expedition" bikes available in the USA. So I think you'd actually be filling a niche if you did this.

Also, check out what Kogswell have to say about the rake on the fork - they favor the French style of front loading, and this is something I find very interesting. Not saying it's better, just worth taking a look at if you're designing a bike from scratch.

Just my $0.02...

Good luck!

Neil

Neil you described at LHT if you can fit on a 54cm frame or smaller. If you need a bigger frame then you can get a Thorn Sherpa (http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/sherpa.html) which meets all your criteria. I ordered mine as a frame set and it arrived within a week from the UK to Canada. It costs more than a LHT, but you get a great deal of touring bike design and testing experience from Thorn as well as a solid company to deal with any warranty/support issues.

I also own a 58cm LHT [great bike] and wish Surly would make a 26" wheel touring bike in all the sizes. Who knows now that the Big Dummy is being produced and they have some free R&D time they might just tackle this idea next???

Neil you described at LHT if you can fit on a 54cm frame or smaller. If you need a bigger frame then you can get a Thorn Sherpa (http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/sherpa.html) which meets all your criteria. I ordered mine as a frame set and it arrived within a week from the UK to Canada. It costs more than a LHT, but you get a great deal of touring bike design and testing experience from Thorn as well as a solid company to deal with any warranty/support issues.

I also own a 58cm LHT [great bike] and wish Surly would make a 26" wheel touring bike in all the sizes. Who knows now that the Big Dummy is being produced and they have some free R&D time they might just tackle this idea next???

Hi Vik,

Yes, I've already investigated the Surly Long Haul Trucker. In fact I own a 56cm, which is the smallest of their 700C sizes. My bike shop guy talked to Surly as to whether I would also be able to fit the 54cm, since the top tube on the 56cm seems on the long side for me (I have fitted a very short stem), but surprisingly they came back saying no way would it fit. Something about not being able to get the bars high enough, not exactly sure.

Interesting thing is, the Rivendell Atlantis is still 26" in their 56cm size. So obviously the Surly LHT is not an exact copy as some people seem to claim. I don't know why Surly went to 700C for the 56cm - I get toe overlap with the front wheel, which is kind of annoying. I think that bike would be more natural in a 26", personally. In any case, the Atlantis in a 56cm might be good for me, but I haven't done a detailed fit on that.

On the Thorn front, I've pretty much discounted going to them because of the horrendous exchange rate that currently exists between the US dollar and UK pound. Also, they are quite expensive wherever you live. It's true that they seem to make really nice bikes, but I decided to try and find other possibilities which are more "native" to where I'm living currently.

In fact, the Novara Safari (which I also have) is turning out to be a very nice bike to ride. Also people on crazyguyonabike have been pointing to various stock bikes which exist (e.g. the Diamondback Transporter) which are quite cheap and yet would seem to have the right kind of geometry for what I'm talking about.

I don't think a bike like this should have to cost thousands, or even much more than $1000 really. I'd like a no-frills design that I'm not afraid to ding around and really use. If I pay thousands for a bike then I feel like I'm more likely to sit at home cooing over it than take it out to get scratched up!

In any case, it's not an urgent matter, more of an ongoing interest. The Safari is great for now, and I may even try to convert my Kona Lava Dome to be more "expedition" ready - put a Surly Instigator fork on there to replace the current suspension fork, and it should be pretty decent.

Neil

A good possibility is to take the Thorn frames and build them up with domestically sourced parts. This is what I am leaning towards doing with the MojoBike project. We would only be dinged on the exchange rate for the frame and not all the components. Of course, we could also take an LHT frame and build that up as well. Or we could look to have a frame made for us to our specs. I noticed that Neil made it over there but I really want the rest of you to come over and hash it out on the project website (http://mojobike.com).

I love brainstorming stuff like this and I'm sure collective wisdom will come up with something cool.

Hi Vik,

I don't think a bike like this should have to cost thousands, or even much more than $1000 really. I'd like a no-frills design that I'm not afraid to ding around and really use. If I pay thousands for a bike then I feel like I'm more likely to sit at home cooing over it than take it out to get scratched up!

Neil

The customer base for touring bikes is very diverse about their wants. Some are willing to pay big bucks for the best and others will get by on cheap equipment. Most everyone has different priorities about what's necessary on a touring rig.

I believe a successful design should be flexible. That's why the LHT frame proved so popular. Everyone could build it up the way they wanted. It would be even more successful had they provided the option of 26" wheel sizes on the larger frames.

I'd like to see bikes sold with a lot of options as far as gearing, wheels, shifters, etc. so that people who don't necessarily like to swap parts on their own can get what amounts to a 'custom' setup. Customer A orders the 56cm frame with 40 spoke wheels, low gearing and barends for loaded touring while customer B can get the same bike with 32 spokes wheels, road bike gearing and brifters for credit card tours. You can do this already if you have a good LBS but it usually costs extra and is a pita. I'd like to see it as a simple 'check the boxes while ordering' type of thing.

Just a thought: You mentioned in your first post that "the forums on mojobike will close once the final design is worked out". It's difficult enough to get people to go over to regularly checking a new website for updates and getting over that initial "ghost town" feeling where nobody's there (so nobody goes, because nobody's there etc ad infinitum). But it takes a certain amount of time and effort to go use a new site, and build up the community for that... but then you're going to close it down, which doesn't sound very enticing. I certainly have my work cut out just checking a few sites for updates every day. For me there's bikeforums, reddit, slashdot, and some other minor sites, and of course crazyguyonabike. I have some experience in trying to kickstart websites, and it's definitely not a case of "if you build it, they will come". You need to give them a good reason to come, and stay, and invest their time and energy getting into something worthwhile. If you say that the forums will just be closed down, then that is a bit of a wet blanket... also, do you really think something like this will ever really be "done"? I think it'll be a constant work in progress, as frames and components change and new stuff becomes available... plus, you will always be getting new suggestions for improvements to the bike. So if you're hoping to get people over there, I would sell it as being more of a new thing that you're starting, something that will be here for the long haul (haha) and isn't going to just go away.

Neil

Good point. I have launched websites as well some successful, some not. I made that statement because I didn't want the community here to think I was trying to pull them away from BF. What will probably happen is the "design" forums would close for new posts and then we'd add support forums and community forums for the bike. I wouldn't chase people off the website if a community actually develops around this project.

I don't want to compete with BF for a userbase and I want good relations with the community here. The expertise here is what has inspired the project. I already priced out advertising on this site so my support will be more tangible in the future if this pans out.

The purpose for creating a new forum is just to focus people on creating a bike as a whole integrated piece. Naturally I could take the handlebar discussions and the shifter discussions and the brake discussions from BF and try to work something out but the handlebar choice affects the brake choice which influences the shifter options and it's hard to do that here with a lot of other noise. I don't want to take over BF with this rather focused discussion because a lot of people aren't interesting in it for various philosophical reasons.

So if you are interested in influencing a real bike build project then please come over to MojoBike.com. If not then that's cool too. I'll talk about the MojoBike here and probably on other forums as well. I'm looking for a diversity of opinions about the bike in order to maximize our collective expertise.

If all that's created in the end is an online parts list for a bike that all fits together which we can refer people to when they want to buy a bike that will be okay. I'm going to definitely try to get the bike built but if it doesn't work out it won't be a waste of time to at least brainstorm this for a while.

Would this only be available as a complete bike, or would customers have the option of buying frame and fork, or frame/fork/headset, or frame/fork/headset/bottom bracket?

The customer base for touring bikes is very diverse about their wants. Some are willing to pay big bucks for the best and others will get by on cheap equipment. Most everyone has different priorities about what's necessary on a touring rig.

I believe a successful design should be flexible. That's why the LHT frame proved so popular. Everyone could build it up the way they wanted. It would be even more successful had they provided the option of 26" wheel sizes on the larger frames.

I'd like to see bikes sold with a lot of options as far as gearing, wheels, shifters, etc. so that people who don't necessarily like to swap parts on their own can get what amounts to a 'custom' setup. Customer A orders the 56cm frame with 40 spoke wheels, low gearing and barends for loaded touring while customer B can get the same bike with 32 spokes wheels, road bike gearing and brifters for credit card tours. You can do this already if you have a good LBS but it usually costs extra and is a pita. I'd like to see it as a simple 'check the boxes while ordering' type of thing.

I generally agree with most of this. The idea of being able to "check the boxes while ordering" appeals to me.

The one thing that I doubt is the assertion that the LHT would sell better if it had 26" wheels in all frame sizes. I am pretty sure that offering it only in 26" would be risky at best. Offering it as an option is almost like coming out with another whole bike. So yes they would sell some with 26" wheels in the larger sizes, but enough additional sales to warrant stocking two different frames in most of their sizes? I think that is far from a sure thing.

Some disagree, but I think the advantages/disadvantages between 700c and 26" are kind of a wash for most uses and to depart from the norm the advantage should be clear cut. Third world expedition style touring is the only place where there is a major advantage for 26" in any but the smaller sizes IMO.

Hi Vik,

Yes, I've already investigated the Surly Long Haul Trucker. In fact I own a 56cm, which is the smallest of their 700C sizes. My bike shop guy talked to Surly as to whether I would also be able to fit the 54cm, since the top tube on the 56cm seems on the long side for me (I have fitted a very short stem), but surprisingly they came back saying no way would it fit. Something about not being able to get the bars high enough, not exactly sure.

Interesting thing is, the Rivendell Atlantis is still 26" in their 56cm size. So obviously the Surly LHT is not an exact copy as some people seem to claim. I don't know why Surly went to 700C for the 56cm - I get toe overlap with the front wheel, which is kind of annoying. I think that bike would be more natural in a 26", personally. In any case, the Atlantis in a 56cm might be good for me, but I haven't done a detailed fit on that.

On the Thorn front, I've pretty much discounted going to them because of the horrendous exchange rate that currently exists between the US dollar and UK pound. Also, they are quite expensive wherever you live. It's true that they seem to make really nice bikes, but I decided to try and find other possibilities which are more "native" to where I'm living currently.

In fact, the Novara Safari (which I also have) is turning out to be a very nice bike to ride. Also people on crazyguyonabike have been pointing to various stock bikes which exist (e.g. the Diamondback Transporter) which are quite cheap and yet would seem to have the right kind of geometry for what I'm talking about.

I don't think a bike like this should have to cost thousands, or even much more than $1000 really. I'd like a no-frills design that I'm not afraid to ding around and really use. If I pay thousands for a bike then I feel like I'm more likely to sit at home cooing over it than take it out to get scratched up!

In any case, it's not an urgent matter, more of an ongoing interest. The Safari is great for now, and I may even try to convert my Kona Lava Dome to be more "expedition" ready - put a Surly Instigator fork on there to replace the current suspension fork, and it should be pretty decent.

Neil

Neil I feel your pain with the exchange rate as I lived through a period where a $1USD=$1.5CDN...:eek:

I have to say that I'd scratch the Safari from my list of potential expedition touring bikes because off the disc brakes, as you noted in your earlier post simple and easily repairable the world over is what you want in an expedition touring bike. Plus disc brakes require a stiff fork that ends up not providing a nice comfortable ride like the steel forks on the LHT or Thorn bikes.

I also agree $1000 is a good price to shoot for and you certainly can do it IF you have the volume Surly does with the LHT AND you have the buying power of QBP behind you as Surly has to provide low cost OEM Parts. As soon as you start talking lower volumes and you don't have a parts supplier like QBP I don't see how you'd meet a $1000 price point for a business venture.

If you don't fit a 26" wheel Surly and you don't want to go the Thorn route you can certainly get rolling on 26" wheels with a number of other bikes. However, I think the many small and not so small touring design tweaks you get in a LHT or Thorn make a noticeable difference in how they ride.


A good possibility is to take the Thorn frames and build them up with domestically sourced parts. This is what I am leaning towards doing with the MojoBike project. We would only be dinged on the exchange rate for the frame and not all the components. Of course, we could also take an LHT frame and build that up as well. Or we could look to have a frame made for us to our specs. I noticed that Neil made it over there but I really want the rest of you to come over and hash it out on the project website (http://mojobike.com).

I love brainstorming stuff like this and I'm sure collective wisdom will come up with something cool.

I think the Thorn Sherpa is a great bike that fits the bill perfectly for a 26" wheeled expedition touring bike that isn't stratospherically priced, but you can buy the frame sets now and build them up. Perhaps if you buy in bulk you can get the price down for sale in North America? Honestly I would be cautious about tweaking a refined design like this unless you want to spend a 12-24 months testing the new ideas and validating they actually work.

You could also talk to Surly and Novara about making a full range of 26" wheeled expedition touring bikes. Both companies seem okay with tackling some of the smaller niche markets. Surly in particular might get jazzed about selling a full-on expedition touring bike like the Thorn EXP. It would fit right into their "style".


The one thing that I doubt is the assertion that the LHT would sell better if it had 26" wheels in all frame sizes. I am pretty sure that offering it only in 26" would be risky at best. Offering it as an option is almost like coming out with another whole bike. So yes they would sell some with 26" wheels in the larger sizes, but enough additional sales to warrant stocking two different frames in most of their sizes? I think that is far from a sure thing.

Some disagree, but I think the advantages/disadvantages between 700c and 26" are kind of a wash for most uses and to depart from the norm the advantage should be clear cut. Third world expedition style touring is the only place where there is a major advantage for 26" in any but the smaller sizes IMO.

+1 - the only place where having a 26" wheel is really important IMO is for an expedition touring bike where getting parts internationally is an issue. The problem as you note is this is a really small market. Only a few people really need a bike like this and a bunch more would ride one because they are cool, but you aren't taking a huge sales volume.

http://www.surlybikes.com/frames/images/bd_main.jpg

If you don't mind thinking outside the box the Surly Big Dummy (http://www.surlybikes.com/bigdummy.html) could make an interesting expedition touring bike (http://www.surlybikes.com/spew19.html). It takes rim brakes or disc, can carry a lot of weight, takes fat tires, 26" wheels and the long wheelbase makes it stable & provides some passive suspension. Youc an even add S&S couplers if you wanted to make it easier to ship/transport.

The complete bike is going to be in the $1600 range (http://www.xtracycle.com/blog/2008/01/11/xtracycle-big-dummy-waiting-list-is-open/), but you get a lot of utility out of it so perhaps you can justify the cost that way?

The Pleasant Revolution (http://thelazyrandonneur.blogspot.com/2008/01/kipchogie-his-big-dummy.html) guys are touring Mexico as we speak on Big Dummies.

http://www.surlybikes.com/new/images/bigdummy.jpg

Why don't we all go over to the mojobike forum, guys?

Why don't we all go over to the mojobike forum, guys?

I've got too many forums on the go. I guess I don't understand why a thread in the Bike Forums Touring section doesn't work for discussing a touring bike???

Vik, It's so that we stay on topic and with a goal in mind. The forums there are going to focus the discussion and keep us from having to monitor every forum. I plan to invite users on other forums into the discussion and MojoBike will be the meeting place. I'll still participate in this thread but all the final decisions are going to be made on the MojoBike forums through with voting being a major input into the decision (which we can't really do here without cluttering the forum). Please come over, I value your opinion and all your points have been really good so far.

I think A worthy variation on the Big Dummy would be that bike without the extracycle attachments, designed to take touring bike racks front and rear. The extracycle is a great idea but the rack parts are too beefy for panniers, great for surfers and pick up truck functions, but the frame weighs too much with that stuff installed to serve anything but a minority of tourists.

It's interesting this just came up now, the other day someone was asking about an MTB frame, and I suggested they look at the Nashbar in Reynolds 853 (they are on their own, I have never used it). I was struck though that if Nashbar offered their current touring frame in the same metal choice, dropped the BB to reasonable levels, and otherwise went over it with a fine tooth comb to make any "free" improvements necessary, like better braze-ons. They would have a better product than Surly does. It wouldn't need to be 853, all they need to do is get some logo for tubing on there. Reality wise Nashbar was there first so they can't be tagged with copying anyone. Now if they thought it would sell, or didn't care and were after the cred, they could do various things to Sakkit/Thorn up their offering to take it to the next level, but some of these great ideas have sold like 50 bikes so that is a consideration. I think they could sell a few improved touring bikes frames at 289!

What strikes me is that we have a number of as-exciting-as-sensible-shoes touring bikes out there that cost around 1K. What is missing is a frame that has the buzz and fun that the LHT had, now that it is the Happy Meal of the touring planet, in zooted out form. Nashbar could take that business back where it belongs if they lifted a finger to improve their frame.

I'm building a Rohloff tourer right now. I am constantly struck by the number of Ritchie Rich types who will not spring for that thing, and that is before it went up 300 bucks. Recently I met a guy (sold me a mill) who was a total bike guy had a full set-up for making bikes, mill, welder, lots of expensive bikes, etc... etc... When I mentioned I had one, it was the one thing I said that really seemed to interest him. But, just too expensive for him to get a Rohloff. Investment bankers I know won't buy it. The two markets I have noticed over here seem to be kids with rich parents, and mud hounds. There are a few people who have like 20 000 miles touring on a bike who want it also. There is a huge market for 4K MTBs, while comparatively there is virtually no market for touring bikes of any kind. Even there I could go into local shops with rack after rack of + 2K MTBs and never see even one with Rohloff.

I am also struck by how little R. has done to deserve touring business. The are after the MTB business, and the case does not suit extreme use touring, the spokes pull out, looks like a casting, not enough spokes and so forth. People will argue the point but I find it hard to believe that they would choose the current version if they were offered a 36 hole version with a flange of the strength of a Bullseye or Phil. Right at the moment I would not invest a lot of money into something like that, into establishing a Thorn brand over here when: 1) There are guys like Canondale who have the euro experience and could blow up your business plan if they thought the numbers over here existed; 2) Thorn could push more over here; 3) Rohloff even if worth it has significant price problems if the Buckaroo looses buying power; 4) Shimano and Schram are quietly trying to suck up that business. So at the very least I won't be competing for your segment. :). Knowing my luck with such things you are probably onto a good idea.

I think one thing to keep in mind about the Thorn is that the generalissimo there who believes in the Rohloff, and the frame design of the EXP, tours on 2" tires. That just isn't our thing over here. If I was running 2" tires (actually I have a lot from commuting in high surface rail density areas), I might not notice what a joke my transmission was either.

Please feel free to bring your project to the attention of people on www.crazyguyonabike.com - the Bikes forum there would be a good place if you're interested in getting those guys into the discussion too. Some of them are over here as well, but not all.

Neil

I would say no custom builds make the frame in 4 or 5 different sizes what this does is help with tooling and keeping the production costs down.

#1- Sell it as a custom build (What I mean here is parts add on's) or just sell the frames and let the customer build the bike. Most of my love affairs with my bikes have been because I've built them myself.

#2- 26 in wheels might be the way to go and you would really need disc brakes on the bike I can't count the number of times I've almost cooked a tire on a long hill because I had to ride the brake.

#3 Make the frame from steel that way if your traveling the world over and you crack or break the frame you can easily find someone to weld on the frame.

#4 Plenty of braze ons that way you can apply almost any rack thats on the market

#5 Mountain bike gearing. When I purchased my trek 520 the gearing was way to large for the california mountains. I would say run a mountain bike crankset and a cassett thats 11-32 or 34

#6 Get away from the road handle bars and go with a touring bar or a riser bar. No bar end shifters

I hope this helps if you have any questions I could help I'm a former areospace mock up production assembler I've worked on everything from Tomahawk missiles to Boeing 757 jets. And I"ve done my fair share of touring.

Why not consider alternative steels? The steels that are usually used in touring bikes are not the best.

The tubing diameters are also often not all that they could be.

Probably beyond our means for production at the moment and an exotic frame really bumps up the cost for the end user. We're not out to create the "ultimate" bike here with money being no object. We're just looking to create ... well, basically something a notch above the LHT / 520 level without having to provide people 10 year financing options. :)

Probably beyond our means for production at the moment and an exotic frame really bumps up the cost for the end user. We're not out to create the "ultimate" bike here with money being no object. We're just looking to create ... well, basically something a notch above the LHT / 520 level without having to provide people 10 year financing options. :)
I hear this.

There may be some steels that -- even though they are not at the current, expensive cutting edge of available steel technology -- are much stronger than the usual steels, while still being reasonably priced.

Just a possibility....

(I'm sure there are people who are just fine with the usual steels, although some of us like the characteristics of some of these other steels.)

*******
Interesting project. :)

A 26" (559) wheel sport touring style steel frame bike built around Rohloff hub available and hopefully
built in US- sign me up.

Like what? Specifically. I think my kind of bike would be just fine in 4130. But then there are people who mostly ride the bike unloaded and could tell a weight difference. I think outside of weight, there is a lot of scepticism that stronger metals create a difference that could be felt in a blind test.

Interestingly over on FF there was a touring thread for once in 29er/fixie land, and the main thing seemed to be a consensus that frames should be engineered stronger with beefier tubes, particular straight and beefy forks. There are a few prominant frame guys over there, like the winner last year, who have done extensive touring. I got some ideas I filed away. And some of it does come down to tube sizes, and NH mentioned, hard to avoid.

Anyway sounds as though different frames aren't the objective here.

Vik, It's so that we stay on topic and with a goal in mind. The forums there are going to focus the discussion and keep us from having to monitor every forum. I plan to invite users on other forums into the discussion and MojoBike will be the meeting place. I'll still participate in this thread but all the final decisions are going to be made on the MojoBike forums through with voting being a major input into the decision (which we can't really do here without cluttering the forum). Please come over, I value your opinion and all your points have been really good so far.

Had a look at the new bike forum and I see one problem. Unless you decide what kind of bike you are building - ie. what is the purpose, what will it carry, where in the world, on road/off-road or both, size range you are shooting for, cost - I don't see how you can make any determinations on the various parts since the preferable brake system for international third world on road travel, isn't necessarily going to be the one I'd pick for North American off road touring.

There isn't really a best brake system or best wheel size or best handle bar for every possible touring application. If you look at the Surly Big Dummy, 700c Surly LHT, Novara Safari & Thorn Sherpa - they are all quite different bikes. I wouldn't say one is clearly better than the other, but if you told me what kind of touring you had in mind I could tell you which bike best suited that application.

True. The general idea is to make an expedition-capable bike that slots above the LHT in components. In fact, one option being considered is just to build up a "deluxe" LHT and use some quantity buying to get the cost below what you could do yourself.

[QUOTE=Wingman115;6092746]

#6 Get away from the road handle bars and go with a touring bar or a riser bar. No bar end shifters

QUOTE]

+1

Combine drops with a butterfly design. I want lots of hand positions.

I agree with Vik, it's all horses for courses at a given budget. I think the Kogswell porteur idea worked to the extent it did because there was channeled demand for a particular vintage bike. It isn't necessarily the best bike for anything, but via the vintage market that type of bike became possible. Maybe there is enough demand for something like a Sakkit/Thorn over here, but I haven't seen any real evidence of it yet. Depends how many you need to sell, like I heard there were 30 some Sakkits sold in total. That leaves the classic touring bike, like the LHT.

Biggest weakness, or yuckness of the Thorn Rohloff frame is that it has that nasty take on an eccentric BB. There are a lot of better ways of handling that detail.

It's also a little bi on the issue of what kind of handlebar is was designed around. And the cables for the Rohloff are kinda ugly in the way they have been routed. It's also not a pretty frame, a lot of touring bikes seem to be sold on their antique charm. I would rather a Thorn, but I bet not too many people buy them to slap on wicker baskets.

On spokes, I think 40 or more screams "touring" like lugs scream "quality" to some. I doubt they are generally necesarry. My feeling is that there is a disadvantage to taking over 36 on a 700C, since finding hubs or rims can be difficult and just buying an outright replacement wheel a less likely opportunity than with 26". On the other hand 700C obviously needs the higher spoke count more.

On Bottle mounts I would prefer 4. If the stays are long enough you can fit a 4th bottle in there, and even on short stayed bikes, you can fit a carrier for stuff like oil. I don't see the point to carrying spokes or pumps outside of the panniers if one fits bags most of the time, but I do see the point to oil or gas being carried where it won't create a mess if there is a little leak or residual leak.

I think there are a variety of limitations to Rohloff hubs. higher drag, higher weight, less control over gear rations, and some others already mentioned.

I don't see any serious problems with discs on the front. it's just a mater of how they are fitted. I don't think the risk of something going wrong is anywhere near the risk of pour stopping power of other systems in certain situations. Discs on the rear seem redundant. V brakes are OK, but are harder to adjust and require more adjustment to keep in tune, and do not work as well with a wobbly wheel. I like high quality cantis properly fitted. I'm upgrading my Paul brakes to Pedersens front and back that seem to solve the problems of inadequate braking strength with road levers, and do not require coolstop pads that have a variety of adverse problems. All the above applies to road brakes, with MTB consoles everything works without difficulty.

something like a cross between a REI Novara Safri and a Trek 520...

1.Disc brakes...Rear mounted on the Chainstay to allow rack and fender mounting

2.The ability to use either your choice of 26" or 700c wheels in ALL Frame sizes (The disc brakes help a lot here)

3.Room for big tires and fenders

4 1 1/8 Headtube set up for a 100mm Xc fork or a steel ridged fork

5 reasonably angled top tube,not perfectly level,but not as an aggressive angle as most modern Mt Bikes
(And no bending like on the Big Dummy!! Thats Fugly!!)

6 A REAL Kickstand!!! something like the spring loaded,attched to the frame type that is common on most motorcycles...ONE THAT WILL HOLD A 70 LB BIKE UP!!

My vote:

700c wheels
36 spokes
Cantis

STI
Drop bars
Interrupter levers on the flats

105 level drivetrain
probably mountain/road mix
50/40/28
11/32-34

braze-ons for 3 water bottles
Jandd Expedition rack
Brooks seat

Jamis Aurora geometry frame

Qualifier: I'm more of a credit card tourer/commuter/city rider.

http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/Images/bikeenlargeexp.jpg

For an expedition touring rig I think Thorn got it pretty much nailed with the EXP (http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/exp.html):
- 26" wheels
- rim brakes
- lots of clearance for big tires & fenders
- strong fork, but good vertical compliance for absorbing road shock
- long wheelbase for stability and fitting large panniers in a position more inboard of the rear axle
- stable handling
- large diameter/thick tubing for carrying heavy loads
- all required braze-ons
- you can fit it with drops or a riser bar
- accepts common mtb bike transmission components

The one significant fault is that it is just too expensive for most people. I'm not sure what it would cost if they kept all the design elements and materials, but had it made it Asia.

Just a few thoughts:

1. Consider incorporating the racks into the frame itself. The rack mounts are a potential weak spot on a bike. If the racks are part of the frame, there's no chance of ever having a rack work loose or a mounting bracket fail from fatigue. (Both of these have happened to me.)

2. I've toured on an old school mountain bike and on a touring bike. Both have advantages and disadvantages. The handlebars on the mountain bike, even with bar ends, did not have as many options for hand positions as the drop bars on my touring bike.

3. You may wish to offer the bike with a choice 700 wheels or 26-inch wheels, or if only with 700 wheels, make sure the bike can accommodate wide tires. This is important for anyone who plans to ride on rough roads and trails where narrow tires may present problems.

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/frames/1_silkroad_gold_vollausstat.jpg

These bikes offered by Peter White (http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/tout-terrain.asp) do not seem to be selling like hot cakes, but they are interesting as they offer some unique design concepts - including the integrated rear rack suggested by Newspaperguy.

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/frames/tout-pana-comp.jpg

Yeah, he's not selling them because they are $4,500+. Would you buy something like the above for $2,500 maybe without the disc brakes including the Rohloff? That's kinda what I'm working towards overall.

Yeah, he's not selling them because they are $4,500+. Would you buy something like the above for $2,500 maybe without the disc brakes including the Rohloff? That's kinda what I'm working towards overall.

Ya the price is a little wacky! Well rather than modify Peter Whites bikes let's just build Thorn EXPs in Asia and sell them at 50%-60% of what an EXP frame costs in the UK. I'd buy one tomorrow. Thorn already builds the Sherpa in Asia so doing an EXP in Asia won't be a stretch. The Sherpa costs 399 UK pounds so maybe a 700 UK pound EXP fabricated in Asia???

The thing is I don't want a frame that looks like the EXP or is based on the EXP. I want an exact copy. I don't think a bunch of people off the internet will design a bike that is better than an experienced bike designed/fabricator who loves touring and has refined his designs over years of experience. And unless you are going to spend 12-24 months testing prototypes you won't really know if your ideas actually make a good touring bike in the real world. The way to short circuit all that time and expense is to use a proven design. For all we know Thorn might be happy to sell Asian built EXPs in North America. It isn't a market they have penetrated very deeply due to the cost of UK built frames.

I'm not super thrilled about the integrated rear rack. On one hand it would likely be stiffer, but a Tubus Cargo is pretty darn stiff. With a separate rack you can remove it to make shipping easier and many people already have a nice rack they like. I guess I'd buy the frame either way, but if you build an integrated rear rack it better be pretty damn fantastic [triangulated, robust and easy to use with popular panniers like Ortlieb] or you just screwed up an otherwise great touring bike.

Has anyone considered building a touring bike with a 26" wheel in the back and a 700 up front ?

Interesting idea 1TM, but what would be the advantages?

Vik, good points. I think we are on the same wavelength. Please pop over to MojoBike.com and join the discussions. You have a good pragmatic outlook and we are beginning to focus things and making preliminary decisions soon.