Cross Brakes

[trin2du]

My first cross frame should arrive in a week or so and I'm starting to debate some component choices. I have most of what I need, or at least know what I'm thinking of getting with the exception of the brakes.

Is there a performance difference between say the TRP Euro X or Empelle Frog Legs versus the brakes styles like the Tektro Oryx? Or is it mainly a personal choice with setup being more important than style?

[Brian T]

My first cross frame should arrive in a week or so and I'm starting to debate some component choices. I have most of what I need, or at least know what I'm thinking of getting with the exception of the brakes.

Is there a performance difference between say the TRP Euro X or Empelle Frog Legs versus the brakes styles like the Tektro Oryx? Or is it mainly a personal choice with setup being more important than style?

I have the Tektro Oryk brakes with Tektro pads. I dont think these have the greatest stopping power. I will be trying a different setup on payday. Hope this helps. Enjoy your build, there always fun.:D

[AndrewP]

Avid Shorty 6 with straddle cable. Easy to set up and with one end of the straddle cable bolted in, you wont run the risk of losing the straddle cable when you remove the wheel, which can happen with the Oryx.

[rodri9o]

i like my spooky's, but am looking to get a standard straddle cable holder.

[tvphobic]

The most critical aspect of picking 'cross brakes is being clear about how much mud you are liable to get into. There is a tradeoff between mud clearance and leverage. A brake with more leverage has less pad movement per unit of cable travel, I believe that the term 'low-profile' applies to this. They will work perfectly until the rims get muddy. There is a different category of brakes with more pad movement per unit of cable travel and this may feel 'harder' but the pads drop further away from the rim and this yields more clearance for any mud or debris. It can make a marked difference. One example of this design, thought not in every shop, and certainly not cheap, is the Paul Neo-Retro, which uses very long arms to increase 'mechanical advantage' Those of my friends who use them are very big fans.

[trin2du]

The most critical aspect of picking 'cross brakes is being clear about how much mud you are liable to get into. There is a tradeoff between mud clearance and leverage. A brake with more leverage has less pad movement per unit of cable travel, I believe that the term 'low-profile' applies to this. They will work perfectly until the rims get muddy. There is a different category of brakes with more pad movement per unit of cable travel and this may feel 'harder' but the pads drop further away from the rim and this yields more clearance for any mud or debris. It can make a marked difference. One example of this design, thought not in every shop, and certainly not cheap, is the Paul Neo-Retro, which uses very long arms to increase 'mechanical advantage' Those of my friends who use them are very big fans.


That's the answer I was looking for. Good info. Thanks.

[tvphobic]

Also, Trin, geography is destiny for 'crossers. In the mid-Atlantic states, you have a good possibility of seeing a good deal of mud in November, I am in the northeast, it's the same, as is the Pacific NW. The southwest and places like Utah, not so much. It is really a drag... pun intended... to hear your brakes scraping the crud on your rims and even tires, because they don't move much. You still see the thirty year old Mafacs out there, especially in benelux countries, no one had improved much upon them until very recently with Paul Design. My observation is that the in this geographic, the more experienced 'crossers have mostly ditched SPD as well for atac and eggbeaters, because the muddy cleat has a much better chance of engaging.

[auk]

The new Tektro CR720's are a very good and cheaper alternative to the Paul Neo's. Same basic design, good clearance for mud, and very affordable. I have both and it is hard to justify the Pauls at times.

[trin2du]

Awesome guys thanks. I was looking at the Cr-720's. I'm getting my frame (Van Dessel Hole Shot) through the shop that sponsors the road/tri club I ride with. The manager had a used bike I looked at first, too big unfortuneately,and he rode the CR's. And I've already got ATAC's on the mountain bike, so that was a given.

Any other suggestions on things to use or stay away from?

[swc7916]

How about these brakes?

[tvphobic]

The new Tektro CR720's are a very good and cheaper alternative to the Paul Neo's. Same basic design, good clearance for mud, and very affordable. I have both and it is hard to justify the Pauls at times.

It was inevitable that a someone who was in a position to utilize economies of scale would take advantage of this new niche market. Until the V-brake, cantis were ubiquitous, and since the V, cantis had been seen as quaint. There really is a cyclocross resurgence, both as a sport and a style of bicycle that many are realizing is suited very well to a general purpose bike. That Tektro Oryx is very similar to the shorty, but the CR720 shows they know that one size doesn't fit all.

[MIN]

Why don't more people run v-brakes? They stop so much better than cantis. As long as it's not mini-Vs the clearance is decent too.

XTR is the de-facto standard.

http://www.bikemagic.com/news/images/xtr2007_vbrake_hi.jpg

[auk]

The V's will offer much better "ultimate" stopping power, however, they run very close to the rim. Also, they require you to runa travel agent in order to bring the travel ratio back to terms between a v-brake lever and the pull of the road levers.

[MIN]

isn't the cable pull requirement the same on v-brakes and mechanical discs?

[M_S]

Yes, which is why you need road-specific disc brakes on your Poprad :) .

[MIN]

Yes, which is why you need road-specific disc brakes on your Poprad :) .

Ahhh gotcha. I still don't understand why a V-brake (or a modified version) still isn't more commonplace on cross bikes. I love v-brake on the mtn bikes that I'd had. The stopping power relative to canti is staggering.

With that said, ultimately stopping power isn't a huge issue when cross racing. However, i thought I'd throw that thought out there.

[mrtornadohead]

Ahhh gotcha. I still don't understand why a V-brake (or a modified version) still isn't more commonplace on cross bikes. I love v-brake on the mtn bikes that I'd had. The stopping power relative to canti is staggering. ...

Actually, I have a set of Shimano STX's (which are no great shakes but not really bad) that have the Salsa wide cable hanger, a longer than usual straddle cable and (most importantly) Kool-stop Salmons. They will stop just as good as the linear-pull XTR's. And with the Kool-Stop Salmons, stopping in wet is no big deal.

[comradehoser]

The more I ride with my tektro CR720s, the more I like them. I even like the stock pads. Have them up front, and stock Avid Shorty 4s in back.

[Elmar Schrauth]

mini-v brakes will come !

[~stella]

+1 for the CR-720. I just got one for the front of my bike and it's been working out wonderfully! Lots of clearance, enough power, and no more fork shuddering!!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2184/2255261552_4e6a3700ba_o.jpg

[comradehoser]

oh yeah, I forgot about that benefit:

my front used to squeal and shudder like CRAZY with the avid shortys on it.

all that is gone with the CR-720s. The 720s are less powerful than the Avids, but you gain a lot of modulation.

Stella--you didn't like the stock tektro hanger?

[knucklesandwich]

comradehoser,
can you speak to how much less powerful the 720's are than Avid Shortys? I've been looking to upgrade the Shorty 4's on my Jake, but most my riding is on the roads, so I'm wondering if it's a good idea?

[~stella]

Stella--you didn't like the stock tektro hanger?

I originally set it up with the tektro cable carrier but didn't like that i needed to use three different bolts if I wanted to adjust it. I prefer using the older style carrier.

[fix]

I run the Pauls and love them. They're extremely easy to adjust as well.

[comradehoser]

stella--yeah? I kind of like that the tektro hangar locks into place. It kind of makes the adjustment screws redundant.

knucks--34.7% less powerful. No, I don't know. With this style of cantis, there are a lot of variables that affect the braking power--how close the pads are to the rim, how high or low you put the straddle, how wide the straddle is, etc. But I do think, on the whole, that the avids are stronger, if a more on/off type of brake. The 720s really give you quite a bit of modulation. Which means you don't lock up the wheel, but you don't need to lock up the wheel.

I actually think the "strength" of the avids might contribute to fork chatter and squeal. I was running the stock avid 4s with dual compound black/salmon mtb pads, and they were super grabby. Since chatter and squeal are just oscillations of pad grab and release, that would make sense. Like I said, no such problems with the 720s.

Plus, they are fairly inexpensive, and by my lights quite well-made, so what do you have to lose? However, if you are loath to spend the ducats, you may not appreciate the extra mud clearance the 720s afford, and might be just as happy with the Avids or even mini-Vs

You may also want to try the Kore brakes shipping with Jamis Supernovas and a couple other bikes (maybe the high-end Kona Jakes)

[qw1a]

Compared to simple ultegra calipers on my road bike, the Cane creek canti brakes that i've installed on my cross bike are horrible. There is zero modulation, it's either locked front wheel with fork shuddering like crazy or no stopping power at all. Adjusting the pads to have equal distance from the rim is impossible with the tube+cable straddles. There is nothing good I can say about them - so as soon as I'll hear someone saying 'I like canti brakes x' I will switch. What about all these non-adjustable euro style brakes? Are mini-v any better? What I want is the hassle-free existence similar to that of caliper brakes.

[nowheels]

mmm...... you get the modulation when you use an older style like a Spooky, 4ZA .... ect. I go a couple pair of almost new 4ZA's that I am going to posting for sale soon. But I agree whait what you are ecperiencing with the Cane creek..... the Avids also do the same thing. There are some people on this board that have had great success with the 'Mini-v's' .... But one you get a set of the older style set up... you hardle ever have to touch them.

[Scooby Snax]

I've fount that the Paul's Neo stop as well as V brakes when set up properly, i.e. getting the stradle cable at 90 degrees to the arms.
I run them on the front, with a Shimano rear Canti on the rear.

with this set up, I have enough power to get you up on the front wheel for a cossack dismount. (unless you dont clip out, then it's just plain funny or ugly depending on your point of view.)

[flargle]

Compared to simple ultegra calipers on my road bike, the Cane creek canti brakes that i've installed on my cross bike are horrible. There is zero modulation, it's either locked front wheel with fork shuddering like crazy or no stopping power at all. Adjusting the pads to have equal distance from the rim is impossible with the tube+cable straddles. There is nothing good I can say about them - so as soon as I'll hear someone saying 'I like canti brakes x' I will switch. What about all these non-adjustable euro style brakes? Are mini-v any better? What I want is the hassle-free existence similar to that of caliper brakes.I just came back from a road ride over hill and dale with absolutely zero complaints about my Cane Creek cantis. IMO they are solid and reliable and nicely adjustable (in comparison with the latest trend of Mafac clones). I have two ideas for you:
(1) not properly adjusted? Perhaps take them to the LBS that works with mountain bikes a lot, have them take a look.
(2) it might not be the brakes, but the fork. Lighter forks are more prone to shudder than heavier ones AFAIK.

[trin2du]

I'm still shopping around. I had settled on the Tektro CR720's and went to the LBS to see if they could get them. As we were flipping through the distrbiutors catalog we came across these. (http://74.8.32.132/nondealer/product.phtml?p=22505&large=1)

Anyone have any experience with Origin8?

[auk]

They are light, and a copy of the Empella/Froggleg/etc., but they suck at adjustments. They offer no toe adustment unless you bend the pad posts.

[trin2du]

Don;t you have the same issue with the TRPs and some of the other brakes?

[auk]

TRPs are the same way. The CR720's have a adjustment options.

[poprad]

Consider this another vote for the Paul's NR cantis. Love 'em, but I haven't gotten into any good mud yet. I followed the directions to the letter, and ran the straddle cable at the full length as found in the package. They stop on a dime. I'd put them as having stopping power somewhere between my road discs and dual pivot road calipers.

They're also stone simple to install and adjust.

[doubled]

I run the frog leggs on my cdale. I would have been much easier to run shorty 6 or some other non post style brake. However when I convert the pads to BBB carriers i should be able to run road brake shoes in my empellas which would allow really easy pad changes between carbon wheels. Empellas offer alot of power and clearance. But youve probably heard that, its the obvious reason.

[fogrider]

Ahhh gotcha. I still don't understand why a V-brake (or a modified version) still isn't more commonplace on cross bikes. I love v-brake on the mtn bikes that I'd had. The stopping power relative to canti is staggering.

With that said, ultimately stopping power isn't a huge issue when cross racing. However, i thought I'd throw that thought out there.

as said, the pauls have amazing power when setup correctly...Vs are not legal in CX races and they are not designed to work with road levers. but some people do put Vs on CX bikes and make it work, its just not the norm.

[bonechilling]

as said, the pauls have amazing power when setup correctly...Vs are not legal in CX races and they are not designed to work with road levers. but some people do put Vs on CX bikes and make it work, its just not the norm.

Are you sure about that? I seem to remember reading that mini-V brake were all the rage in Europe for the past two years, and I know that I've seen US riders with them. I mean, this is the US, so the "governing body" is just happy that you can pin your number on correctly, so it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't notice your V-brakes.

[tvphobic]

As brakes are a constant subject in cyclocross, I have discussed the Paul neo-retro in this thread, the Tektro CR720 - a reasonable low-cost alternative. Since I just want to keep readers abreast of developments in the field, I rode with a buddy this weekend who had just installed the (newish)
Grenouille Cantilever brakes. This may be the one US source http://www.velo-orange.com/grcabr.html

This is a Taiwan-made ( how many bike parts aren't these days?) brake along the lines of the mafac canti.
I did not ride his bike as he was set up for speedplays and I use Atacs - and a larger frame. But his word is good - this is a chap who has placed at races in the last years. He likes the Grenouille, and I inspected it and checked out the leverage between lever and brake. Seems good- If you try them, keep us posted!

[bigskyTi]

FWIW I'll have a set of almost brand new Avid Shorty 6's coming off my Fantom Team pretty soon. I'm changing over to discs (more for looks than anything).

I've ridden the Avids once so far and they had pleanty of stopping power for my 190lbs on a MTB trail.

Cheers

Peter