Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Track hubs on road

Just ran across this article on Sheldon's website: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/record-track.html

To sum, it talks about the failure of Campy Pista Record hubs being used on the road and that they will not be under warranty if something goes wrong off of the track.

I'm thinking about building a new wheel set and was planning on using either Record or Dura Ace track hubs. Is this a bad idea? Should I use regular road hubs as I plan to use the bike 99% of the time on the road?

Has anyone experienced any of the above problems?

Please advise.

-Steve

nope, you are good. The problem is with c-rec 'sheriff star' hubs. Most often when they are radially laced. They tend to fail at the flange. Overall, while people put down $$$ on them, they are pretty weak structurally.

Other than those, you have a whole host of descent hubs to choose from DA 7600 hubs, Phil hubs, LF c-record, etc are all great options. Even vintage hubs like Campy Record, Suntour Superbe Pro, Suzue Pro Max, etc will all run fine on the street.

nope, you are good. The problem is with c-rec 'sheriff star' hubs. Most often when they are radially laced. They tend to fail at the flange. Overall, while people put down $$$ on them, they are pretty weak structurally.


That sheldon posts indicate otherwise. Running campy or dura ace track hubs on the road voids warranty by the way.

Just ran across this article on Sheldon's website: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/record-track.html

To sum, it talks about the failure of Campy Pista Record hubs being used on the road and that they will not be under warranty if something goes wrong off of the track.

I'm thinking about building a new wheel set and was planning on using either Record or Dura Ace track hubs. Is this a bad idea? Should I use regular road hubs as I plan to use the bike 99% of the time on the road?

Has anyone experienced any of the above problems?

Please advise.

-Steve
If you plan on riding in the rain or in wet conditions you might want to look one of the many fixed hubs which were designed to be ridden on the road and not the track.

"most often" means just that. Most often then fail when they are radially laced. Almost everyone I have seen fail is radially laced. Yes, sheldon's post shows a 3 cross, and yes those do fail as well. Wasn't contesting that.

So if it voids your warranty, what do you suggest running on the road? When properly laced, DA, low flange recs, etc are fine. As far as voiding the warranty, well you would have to tell the manufacturer you were running them on the road now, wouldn't you? Otherwise they would be hard pressed to prove it.

I dunno, I would trust a set of DA or campy hubs over some cheap formulas that were 'made' for the road. Phil and Paul are another trustworthy option. But as long as you maintain your hubs properly and take the appropriate steps if you ride in the rain, you should be fine.

I dunno, I would trust a set of DA or campy hubs over some cheap formulas that were 'made' for the road. Phil and Paul are another trustworthy option. But as long as you maintain your hubs properly and take the appropriate steps if you ride in the rain, you should be fine.

What's not to trust about Formula hubs? I've been banging the hell out of mine on cobblestone streets for quite awhile now with no issues. They are excellent hubs and a great value.

...

most people's issue with them is that they're not expensive, Italian, nor do they have an obscure stamp on them, and they are still produced and widely available.

That makes sense, all of the things that makes them practical are considered drawbacks to buying them. I love my forumals, even if they aren't considered "bling". I actually think they look just fine.

Hey.... I ride suzue pro max cf bling hubs on my nicer bike (hopefully they don't explode because I ride them on the street) but I love Formula Hubs on my beater.

What's not to trust about Formula hubs? I've been banging the hell out of mine on cobblestone streets for quite awhile now with no issues. They are excellent hubs and a great value.

Are you serious. Have you rode anything other than formulas extensively? And I mean not just your buddies bike around the block, but really road them? There is a reason Campy or DA hubs are move expensive, or phil for that matter. Yes, I concede and say SOME of the price is due to name cache, but overall they are just better hubs.

The aforementioned hubs are built to stricter tolerances. They use better materials, they have smoother races, threads that don't go south if you change your cog more than once, lockrings that last. Axle, cone and bearing quality is a million times better than a formula hub.

I'm not saying that formulas are not a good value and yes you can get wear and tear out of them, but longterm, I'll take a marquee brand hands down over an OEM hub. Let's talk 10 years from now and see who's hub is in better shape.

Are you serious. Have you rode anything other than formulas extensively? And I mean not just your buddies bike around the block, but really road them? There is a reason Campy or DA hubs are move expensive, or phil for that matter. Yes, I concede and say SOME of the price is due to name cache, but overall they are just better hubs.

The aforementioned hubs are built to stricter tolerances. They use better materials, they have smoother races, threads that don't go south if you change your cog more than once, lockrings that last. Axle, cone and bearing quality is a million times better than a formula hub.

I'm not saying that formulas are not a good value and yes you can get wear and tear out of them, but longterm, I'll take a marquee brand hands down over an OEM hub. Let's talk 10 years from now and see who's hub is in better shape.

Yeah but the issue isn't exactly bling vs. basic, it's road hubs vs. track hubs. I'd be nervous about taking some DAs out on the road just because I am primarily a high mileage, **** weather commuter. Hubs with cartridge bearings and intended for road riding would seem to stand more of a chance than hubs meant to be ridden indoors and out of the rain. If you could get rubberbooted XT fixed hubs I'd be down like a clown. :)

Agreed. Has nothing to do with bling, whatsoever.

My opinion (and an opinion is all that it is), is that Formula hubs can take a beating, won't break the bank and do just fine. I guess I just look at it longer term. If I am gonna put money down on hubs, I would rather spend the extra money on some cartridge bearing Miche or Suzue disco hubs over forumlas.

Sheriff star's aside, you hear way more stories of f'd up formulas then you do (if at all) about Phils, Pauls, DA, etc.

Are you serious. Have you rode anything other than formulas extensively? And I mean not just your buddies bike around the block, but really road them? There is a reason Campy or DA hubs are move expensive, or phil for that matter. Yes, I concede and say SOME of the price is due to name cache, but overall they are just better hubs.

The aforementioned hubs are built to stricter tolerances. They use better materials, they have smoother races, threads that don't go south if you change your cog more than once, lockrings that last. Axle, cone and bearing quality is a million times better than a formula hub.

I'm not saying that formulas are not a good value and yes you can get wear and tear out of them, but longterm, I'll take a marquee brand hands down over an OEM hub. Let's talk 10 years from now and see who's hub is in better shape.

Jaa, I also have a Campy Record wheelset. All the above might hold true for the velodrome, but we are discussing hubs for street use. If you've ever taken a Campy Pista hub apart you'll notice a lack of seals. Not so great for riding in the wet......

Sheriff star's aside, you hear way more stories of f'd up formulas then you do (if at all) about Phils, Pauls, DA, etc.

Probably because there are way more people with Formula hubs. BTW, how many of those stories are due to user error?

Riding the latest version of the Campagnolo Pista hub on the road doesn't void the warranty.

Radial lacing does though.

Seven year old news. Thanks

Riding the latest version of the Campagnolo Pista hub on the road doesn't void the warranty.

Radial lacing does though.

Same for DuraAce.

That sheldon posts indicate otherwise. Running campy or dura ace track hubs on the road voids warranty by the way.

are we talking about buying used goods? or new?

would campy even have a warranty still for NOS items? like sheriff hubs?

You can radial lace phils and they are still covered under warrenty.


Buy phils. Best hubs ever made for riding a track bike on the street.

So expensive though. I will probably look into it in a few years, but it just seems a little outrageous to spend that much money.

Buy phils. Best hubs ever made for riding a track bike on the street.

When you factor in cost, this statement is clearly wrong, but anyone who has wasted their $ on Phils will make such a claim to justify the amount paid just to have a fashionable hub.
I can make the same claim about my Surly hubs, which were a third the cost and work equally well. If you are telling me that you can tell a difference between Phil hubs or any other well-maintained budget fixed gear hub, you are either a sensitive princess or delusional.

When you factor in cost, this statement is clearly wrong, buy anyone who has wasted their $ on Phils will make such a claim to justify the amount paid just to have a fashionable hub.


I totally agree with that. There are other hubs available that will last just as long, cost way less and easily look better. (I swear they didnt even try to make them look nice.)

The Campy track hubs are too fragile for the road?

How about a hub designed specifically for off road?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v390/blickblocks/kogshub.gif

Granted it's low flange, but I'm just saying track-specific hubs aren't your only options for a quality fixed hub.

in general, is lacing any campagnolo track hubs radially a stupid idea?

Same for DuraAce.

No, this does not apply to DA high flange track hubs, only the low flange ones.

universal cycles has a good price on miche primatos (fixed/fixed). anyone use these? i'd like to upgrade from formulas to a higher-end hub. wonder if these are a good enough step up.

With my riding style, both my vintage pista and sheriff's star hubs have a million-in-one chance of failure on the street. I'm not concerned. They've been fine for over ten years so far.

Miche hubs are nice, but I don't think I would spend the money to upgrade from Formula (which I think are actually very nice). The one exception might be if I was going to use my old wheels to build up another bike.

...

Miche hubs are nice, but I don't think I would spend the money to upgrade from Formula (which I think are actually very nice). The one exception might be if I was going to use my old wheels to build up another bike.

my goal is to upgrade the entire wheelset (dtswiss 1.2 rims are what i really want). so i'll most likely sell my old set (velocity fusions) on craigslist and use the money to offset this upgrade. i just really like the miche hubs as far as being super high flange and the price seems so good. for twice as much i could get phils. age-old question: are phils worth it over miches?

Miche hubs are nice, but I don't think I would spend the money to upgrade from Formula (which I think are actually very nice). The one exception might be if I was going to use my old wheels to build up another bike.

my goal is to upgrade the entire wheelset (dtswiss 1.2 rims are what i really want). so i'll most likely sell my old set (velocity fusions) on craigslist and use the money to offset this upgrade. i just really like the miche hubs as far as being super high flange and the price seems so good. for twice as much i could get phils. age-old question: are phils worth it over miches?

***off topic: spokes (i'm heavy and ride hard) dt straight gauge 2.0, dt double butted, or dt revolution? what do u think?

are phils worth it over miches?


Unless you need custom hole drilling or slotted holes, then no.

universal cycles has a good price on miche primatos (fixed/fixed). anyone use these? i'd like to upgrade from formulas to a higher-end hub. wonder if these are a good enough step up.

What don't you like about the Formula hubs that you wish to upgrade?

Are you serious. Have you rode anything other than formulas extensively? And I mean not just your buddies bike around the block, but really road them? There is a reason Campy or DA hubs are move expensive, or phil for that matter. Yes, I concede and say SOME of the price is due to name cache, but overall they are just better hubs.

The aforementioned hubs are built to stricter tolerances. They use better materials, they have smoother races, threads that don't go south if you change your cog more than once, lockrings that last. Axle, cone and bearing quality is a million times better than a formula hub.

I'm not saying that formulas are not a good value and yes you can get wear and tear out of them, but longterm, I'll take a marquee brand hands down over an OEM hub. Let's talk 10 years from now and see who's hub is in better shape.

Stricter tolerances? Are you a qualified machinist with the tools to determine this, or did you just read this somewhere? If so, where?

The materials are better? It's the same steel and Al, really it is, I promise. There isn't some VIP section of the periodic table you can't get access too for under $100 a hub, and the types of alloys used in this stuff don't differ enough in price to talk about. I will give you that the formula lock nuts are made from steel that is a little too hard and brittle, but this can be remedied for $2.

The races are smoother? Apples to oranges, with a faint whiff that you don't even know what you're talking about. The formula hubs most of us use are cartridge bearing, the races are in the bearing itself. What's machined into the hub are the bearing seats, which I've looked at and they're primo.

Thread quality? Please describe for us the tools you used (or would use) to tell the difference in threading quality between formulas and more expensive hubs.

Lockrings that last? Newsflash: most formula hubsets and prebuilt wheels don't come with lockrings, and the ones that formula does sell are perfectly good. Some complete bikes do come with cheesy stamped lock rings on fomula hubs, but whose fault is that?

Axle, cone, and bearing quality is a million times better? I've never heard of any issues with the axles on formulas. Campy axles are nothing to get excited about, DA are stainless which looks great but isn't necessary, and phil uses hi-ten steel just like formula. Formulas don't even really have cones, not sure what you're talking about there. The bearings are very, very good, and when they go they can be replaced with the highest grade out there for not much money. Also, the nice thing about formulas (and phils) is that the bearings going out can't ruin the hub. If a Campy or DA hub gets run dry the races can pit, and then it's done for.

I have formulas, campy record road hubs, and a lot of good shimano stuff, and under no circumstances have I ever been able to feel the difference in any quality hub while riding. Anyone who thinks they can is full of it, hubs just don't contribute anything significant to road feel.

What don't you like about the Formula hubs that you wish to upgrade?

Nothing. I've never had better than formula so I don't know. But again, i'm wanting to upgrade the entire wheelset mostly because I want bomb-proof dt swiss 1.2 rims.. so, this is a chance to start over with a quality hub while I'm at it. I'm only brainstorming and gathering opinions. Next I'll start adding costs, etc. Maybe I'll simply leave the formulas on and have the wheels rebuilt only w/new rims.

Nothing. I've never had better than formula so I don't know. But again, i'm wanting to upgrade the entire wheelset mostly because I want bomb-proof dt swiss 1.2 rims.. so, this is a chance to start over with a quality hub while I'm at it. I'm only brainstorming and gathering opinions. Next I'll start adding costs, etc.

Unless you have money burning a hole in your pocket, or can get a good deal on boutique hubs, Formula are just fine quality wise. Mine laced to Open Pro rims are a nice wheelset for city riding. You can also replace the bearings with Phil Wood bearings for around $20.

please don't read your nice track bikes on the street.

For suntour superb pro hubs..is the flange strong??? I wouldnt want to abuse the hub...

Admitedly, i want to look at my entire wheelset and know i've got the best. Call me a poseur. I admire bikes that have it together. When I see big flange Miche , DA, or Phils, I feel jealous inside. So perhaps that is my real reason for upgrading. You can start insulting now - but at least I admit it! Another thing... I may have less than Formula. I have just assumed that my Milwaukee hubs are Formula.

Admitedly, i want to look at my entire wheelset and know i've got the best. Call me a poseur. I admire bikes that have it together. When I see big flange Miche , DA, or Phils, I feel jealous inside. So perhaps that is my real reason for upgrading. You can start insulting now - but at least I admit it!

Then get some Phil Wood hubs, they are very nicely finished with an excellent guarantee.

For suntour superb pro hubs..is the flange strong??? I wouldnt want to abuse the hub...

very soft. worst idea evar. don't do it. btw, sell them to me if they are 32h. thanks

Admitedly, i want to look at my entire wheelset and know i've got the best. Call me a poseur. I admire bikes that have it together. When I see big flange Miche , DA, or Phils, I feel jealous inside. So perhaps that is my real reason for upgrading. You can start insulting now - but at least I admit it! Another thing... I may have less than Formula. I have just assumed that my Milwaukee hubs are Formula.

MKE = Dimension hubs, perfectly good stuff, just not as many of them out there as formula.

very soft. worst idea evar. don't do it. btw, sell them to me if they are 32h. thanks

I could get another set of 32s for u...pm' me (just so u know I am from Sydney).
But i dont think they are very soft, may be I love my wheelset too much. I abuse my formula/deep v badlee and its holding up very well.

Stricter tolerances? Are you a qualified machinist with the tools to determine this, or did you just read this somewhere? If so, where?

The materials are better? It's the same steel and Al, really it is, I promise. There isn't some VIP section of the periodic table you can't get access too for under $100 a hub, and the types of alloys used in this stuff don't differ enough in price to talk about. I will give you that the formula lock nuts are made from steel that is a little too hard and brittle, but this can be remedied for $2.

The races are smoother? Apples to oranges, with a faint whiff that you don't even know what you're talking about. The formula hubs most of us use are cartridge bearing, the races are in the bearing itself. What's machined into the hub are the bearing seats, which I've looked at and they're primo.

Thread quality? Please describe for us the tools you used (or would use) to tell the difference in threading quality between formulas and more expensive hubs.

Lockrings that last? Newsflash: most formula hubsets and prebuilt wheels don't come with lockrings, and the ones that formula does sell are perfectly good. Some complete bikes do come with cheesy stamped lock rings on fomula hubs, but whose fault is that?

Axle, cone, and bearing quality is a million times better? I've never heard of any issues with the axles on formulas. Campy axles are nothing to get excited about, DA are stainless which looks great but isn't necessary, and phil uses hi-ten steel just like formula. Formulas don't even really have cones, not sure what you're talking about there. The bearings are very, very good, and when they go they can be replaced with the highest grade out there for not much money. Also, the nice thing about formulas (and phils) is that the bearings going out can't ruin the hub. If a Campy or DA hub gets run dry the races can pit, and then it's done for.

I have formulas, campy record road hubs, and a lot of good shimano stuff, and under no circumstances have I ever been able to feel the difference in any quality hub while riding. Anyone who thinks they can is full of it, hubs just don't contribute anything significant to road feel.

this should be a sticky.

this should be a sticky.

Why?

Langdolier refutes the quoted post with nothing but "where's your proof" statements everywhere while providing no proof of his own counterclaims.

Let's do this one by one.


Stricter tolerances? Are you a qualified machinist with the tools to determine this, or did you just read this somewhere? If so, where?

By the same token, do you have proof that Dura ace hubs aren't made to stricter tolerances than say a formula hub? Or did you just read this somewhere? If so where?


The races are smoother? Apples to oranges, with a faint whiff that you don't even know what you're talking about. The formula hubs most of us use are cartridge bearing, the races are in the bearing itself.

And if you've ever actually replaced the stock cart 6000 bearings on formula hubs, you'd know that they SUCK at spinning. There's no comparision between a formula cartridge bearings vs the smoothness of a loose ball hub like the dura ace.


Thread quality? Please describe for us the tools you used (or would use) to tell the difference in threading quality between formulas and more expensive hubs.

By the same token, let's see some proof that expensive hubs DON'T have better threading than cheaper hubs. Please describe for us the tools you used (or would use) to tell the difference between threading quality of formulas vs more expensive hubs.


Lockrings that last? Newsflash: most formula hubsets and prebuilt wheels don't come with lockrings, and the ones that formula does sell are perfectly good. Some complete bikes do come with cheesy stamped lock rings on fomula hubs, but whose fault is that?

That point i'll concede.


The bearings are very, very good

Sure doesn't sound like you've ever worked on or had to replace (STOCK) bearings for a messengers wheelset who rides in slush, snow, rain, salted roads - The bearings don't last long and don't spin well. Of course under the same conditions DA and Campy hubs would have to be repacked nearly daily but then again the superiority claims of Formula vs bling hubs is substantially overrated.


I have formulas, campy record road hubs, and a lot of good shimano stuff, and under no circumstances have I ever been able to feel the difference in any quality hub while riding. Anyone who thinks they can is full of it, hubs just don't contribute anything significant to road feel.

Just because it "feels no different" on the road doesn't mean that there is no difference. It might not matter to you, but it matters to others.

Operator, you're missing landgolier's point in multiple places. The proffered reason to buy the expensive hubs was that they are made to "stricter tolerances", but if no one can say what those are or where they apply then this reason has no force.

I guess that cartridge bearings are more resistant than loose balls (not that this makes any difference for any of us) but you can't tell me that the bit about how "the races are smoother" (which landgolier was responding to) wasn't more or less pulled out of thin air.

I don't understand what your point about replacing messengers' bearings has to do with landgolier's saying that cartridge bearings' going out can never ruin the hub.

On the subject of very strict tolerances, here is a guy measuring the axle on a Dimension hub. This btw is a great article.

http://projekto-b.blogspot.com/2008/01/how-to-replace-your-cartridge-bearings.html

Operator, you're missing landgolier's point in multiple places. The proffered reason to buy the expensive hubs was that they are made to "stricter tolerances", but if no one can say what those are or where they apply then this reason has no force.



Well you just missed the point of my post, in multiple places no less.

If no one can say that expensive hubs are made to "stricter tolerances", what's to say that they aren't? This is no better than the original claim that expensive hubs are made to "stricter tolerances". Do you get my point now? Same reasoning goes for the rest of landgoliers post.



I don't understand what your point about replacing messengers' bearings has to do with landgolier's saying that cartridge bearings' going out can never ruin the hub.


I've revised my quoted section so people with short attention spans know what i'm directly refuting.


I guess that cartridge bearings are more resistant than loose balls (not that this makes any difference for any of us)

Doesn't make a difference to YOU maybe, sure makes a difference to me. Again, that was the point of my last sentence in post #46.

wow.
there's been a lot of work put into this thread.
i like.

Stricter tolerances? Are you a qualified machinist with the tools to determine this, or did you just read this somewhere? If so, where?

Nope I am not, but lets use NJS as an example- there is a reason that formula hubs don't sport an NJS stamp. Despite all the hype, Nihon Jitensha Shinkōkai is still a a legitimate body with extremely strict standards for the products they approve. But we're talking about use on the road, so I digress.


The materials are better? It's the same steel and Al, really it is, I promise. There isn't some VIP section of the periodic table you can't get access too for under $100 a hub, and the types of alloys used in this stuff don't differ enough in price to talk about. I will give you that the formula lock nuts are made from steel that is a little too hard and brittle, but this can be remedied for $2.

Let's use Phil as an example here. Yes, both are made of 6000 series ai. Formula uses stock 6061 while Phil uses a proprietary 6000 series alloy custom made for them. It has a tighter grain which translates into a hub they guarantee for life against defects or breakage. That has to say something about their product- oh and no, it's not the same Al.


The races are smoother? Apples to oranges, with a faint whiff that you don't even know what you're talking about. The formula hubs most of us use are cartridge bearing, the races are in the bearing itself. What's machined into the hub are the bearing seats, which I've looked at and they're primo.

What I will say here is a did get ahead of myself and put loose ball hubs into the mix. But I must ask, by merely looking at the bearing seats, what qualifies you to decide they are "primo"?


Thread quality? Please describe for us the tools you used (or would use) to tell the difference in threading quality between formulas and more expensive hubs.

I use magical tools that gingerly caress the hub thread, but seriously, why do you wanna know what's in my toolbox? We are talking hubs, not tools. But if you must know I use a DA chainwhip and Hozan locking pliers. Hopefully those pass your tool standards. But that is beside the point. And maybe this goes to the comment above about more people having formulas, but I stand by the comment that you hear more stories of stripped formula threads then any of the marquee brands.


Lockrings that last? Newsflash: most formula hubsets and prebuilt wheels don't come with lockrings, and the ones that formula does sell are perfectly good. Some complete bikes do come with cheesy stamped lock rings on fomula hubs, but whose fault is that?

I guess I just straight up disagree with you here. Formula lockrings are crap. They are soft and easily strip. Do a google search. I'm not alone on this one- and I'm talking about the formula ones, which in my opinion fall into the category of the cheap stamped ones.


Axle, cone, and bearing quality is a million times better? I've never heard of any issues with the axles on formulas. Campy axles are nothing to get excited about, DA are stainless which looks great but isn't necessary, and phil uses hi-ten steel just like formula. Formulas don't even really have cones, not sure what you're talking about there. The bearings are very, very good, and when they go they can be replaced with the highest grade out there for not much money. Also, the nice thing about formulas (and phils) is that the bearings going out can't ruin the hub. If a Campy or DA hub gets run dry the races can pit, and then it's done for.

Again, I will admit being wrong here and jumping ahead of myself by mixing comments about sealed bearing and loose bearing hubs. However, there is no way you can compare say a campy axle to a formula axle- but that is beside the point as we are talking about sealed bearing hubs. Where I totally disagree with you is when you say the bearings are "very, very good". That is just untrue. The bearings are okay, but by no means very x2 good. And if you are buying a new set of hubs, and have to replace the bearings and lockring, why not just spend a bit more and get say a miche hub you can use right out of the box?


I have formulas, campy record road hubs, and a lot of good shimano stuff, and under no circumstances have I ever been able to feel the difference in any quality hub while riding. Anyone who thinks they can is full of it, hubs just don't contribute anything significant to road feel.

Really, I'm with Operator on this one. There is a huge difference in smoothness between say a campy record hub and a formula or phil for that matter. That is like saying you ride both clinchers and tubulars and they feel the same.