Fifty Plus (50+) - Thoughts on frame options

So I am thinking seriously about going with a custom build, or something close to it. Based on a mountain bike frame, but one with a shorter top tube than most MTB frames. Plan on using a rigid carbon fork.

So far I've found three good candidates.

The Gunnar Rock Tour, an "off-road touring" frame that is very much in the line of what I'm looking for. Made of OS X steel. A bit pricey at $975, but had lots of nice braze-on options.

http://www.gunnarbikes.com/rocktour.php

From Salsa the Ala Carte frame, uses OS X steel in the main triangle, with fewer braze-ons, for example it only takes disc brakes. A Minnesota company that has the frames made in Taiwan. Much cheaper at $550, which includes the cro-moly fork. Also available as a complete bike that is very close to what I'm thinking about, except for it having a steel fork, and a couple other changes, like thinner, smoother tires, and a more upright stem.

Also from Salsa, a nice looking aluminum/carbon combo, the Moto Rapido. I find these frames to have a ride very similar to an all-steel frame, with the carbon seat stays smoothing out the vibrations nicely. I believe this one lists at $750.

http://www.salsacycles.com/frames.html

The complete Salsa Ala Carte bike is a pretty sweet deal at $1470.
http://www.webcyclery.com/product.php?productid=18268&cat=79&page=1

Anyone have any thoughts on these frames? Other suggestions?

The steel is True Temper OX Platinum. I think Gunnar/Waterford refers to their spec of that tubing as OS. Salsa does not.

You are planning to castrate some damn nice offroad bikes (imho). :(

I will be providing a home and some usage for a poor, unused, unsold frame.

MTB frames fit my needs better than road bike frames. The geometries are closer to my needs, they can be more readily modified to my desired riding position, they have lower standover heights.

And it is easier to match my desired components to them, such as MTB compatible shifters, cranksets, derailleurs, cassettes.

So if I'm going to go in that direction, why get an all aluminum hardtail frame & fork? I don't want that. Might as well get something nice and that yields the smoother ride that I desire.

I could go with the stock Salsa Ala Carte bike and then if I'm not satisfied with the cro-moly fork, I could replace it with a carbon fork. Well, stock except for changing the tires. I sure don't need 2.3" knobby tread tires. Would go with a 1.25-1.50" slick or semi-slick.

If you ever wanted racks and fenders on the Salsa bikes, you would have to use alternate mounting methods as they don't have eyelets.

Thanks for the link - the new Salsa bikes are interesting. If you want eyelets, what about their Salsa Casseroll cyclocross bike? You said you were going to put on "smaller" tires anyway -- it will take tires up to 38c; has disc brakes; appears to have eyelets and braze-ons for fenders. w/knobby cyclocross tires would appear to be solid off-road; w/smoother tires would make a great commuter. (see link at webcyclery address you provided above)

The geometry on the Casseroll is off for me. The frame that has the right top tube for me, has a standover that is about 30-35 mm too high. And the complete bike Casseroll Triple is a road bike. It has all kinds of components that I don't like, like drop bars, brifters, road triple crankset, etc.

So that bike is not the one for me. Nor is any road bike.

If you ever wanted racks and fenders on the Salsa bikes, you would have to use alternate mounting methods as they don't have eyelets.

Yes, this is what I was trying to say in my original post. One of the reasons why they can offer some of their frames at lower prices is by stripping them down to basic frames.

Of course as none of my present bikes have fenders or racks, that's not a high priority. But it is nice to have the option.

Yes, this is what I was trying to say in my original post. One of the reasons why they can offer some of their frames at lower prices is by stripping them down to basic frames.

Of course as none of my present bikes have fenders or racks, that's not a high priority. But it is nice to have the option.

Braze ons don't add much cost. These frames are not stripped down to be cheap. They are stripped down to be racing frames, which is what they are. Earlier versions of the Ala Carte had V-brake bosses. They were removed because most racers use discs and the bike is cleaner without unused braze ons.

<edit>
Not saying the Ala Carte won't be good for your purposes, just noting that it was designed for something else. But steel MTB frames are versatile. This one slightly less so due to being more purpose built. I don't think the Moto Rapido would be as good a choice with its Scandium frame.

Of the two, I'd incline toward the Gunnar -- if only because it's quite clearly designed from the outset to be 'road' as well as 'off road' friendly (one e.g. the chainstay positioning of the rear disc mount for rack clearance).
Two more possibilities: 1) Rocky Mountain Blizzard -- Reynolds 853/rack mounts/a long pedigree; 2) Jamis Dragon Comp (08 model) -- complete bike, but Reynolds 631 frame/rack mounts etc/easy to swap out parts as desired/good pricing.
Still, if I could afford it I'd look at the Gunnar.

How about the Nashbar 853 tube frame? Heck of a deal for under $300. I have their Chromoloy Version that I paid $40 bucks for last year, and I'll tell ya, I LOVE that bike! I have an LX touring crank, wide range rear cassette running a SRAM X-7 rear and an LX Front derailluer. Bought the Nashbar Carbon fork with Disc mounts on it and run Avid BB5's front and rear. I just changed out from 2+ inch nobbies to a Michelin Country Rock in a 1.75 width.

Set up like this, The bike is stable and fast for what it is. Might not be the lightest thing on 2 wheels, but she's my solid Clyde Bike!

Chris

I've read multiple posts that claim the Rocky Mountain Blizzard frame is essentially the same frame as the Nashbar 853. I've looked at the Nashbar and it is a very good value. Haven't eliminated it as yet.

Braze ons don't add much cost.

I don't think the Moto Rapido would be as good a choice with its Scandium frame.

Braze-ons add some cost if you get them from Waterford/Gunnar! Add V-brake mounts is $75. Others are around $50/pr.

From what I've read, Scandium (aluminum alloy) has a bit more vibration dampening than a standard aluminum frame. As the Moto Rapido comes with carbon seat stays, and then say we pair that with a carbon fork, and a carbon seat post, I think it would yield a smooth ride.

Obviously the proof is in the pudding and one would need a test ride to confirm. But the parts suggest that it would have a nice ride. My experience in riding on aluminum frames with carbon stays, fork, and seat post was that those had smooth rides. I thought they were smoother than the four all-steel bikes that I rode.

Of course it also depends upon how the frame was tuned. If for performance, then it would likely be more rigid and thus less smooth.

That's what leads me back to the Gunnar Rock Tour, which I have been told by Richard Schwinn, was tuned for longer distance riding comfort, in both its geometry and ride. It's design is closer to a Rivendell'ish riding philosophy. I think this frame is almost spot-on what I'm looking for. But even in a standard color, stock frame w/o fork, it's $975!!

Similar to you Tom in that I am short. I do give you an inch or so on leg length but I have been riding compact frames for around 8 years now. The Bianchi MTB is only a 15" frame and this was bought after the bypass to give me a more upright stance on the bike to take the strain off the chest. Then when I went road- I got a small compact frame again. In fact- I did go too small and the TCR was the next size up. I know you have probably looked at the geometry and sizing- but link to the Giant specs are below. In fact my first Giant- The OCR- was an XS and the TCR is an S. Now both of these bikes feel right to me- but on the OCR I put on a longer stem- 80mm to 110 but with a higher rise aswell.

And just in case it worries you- There is a lot of standover clearance on each of these bikes- If I ever get off the saddle.


http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-US/bikes/road/1236/29253/

Braze-ons add some cost if you get them from Waterford/Gunnar! Add V-brake mounts is $75. Others are around $50/pr.

From what I've read, Scandium (aluminum alloy) has a bit more vibration dampening than a standard aluminum frame. As the Moto Rapido comes with carbon seat stays, and then say we pair that with a carbon fork, and a carbon seat post, I think it would yield a smooth ride.

Obviously the proof is in the pudding and one would need a test ride to confirm. But the parts suggest that it would have a nice ride. My experience in riding on aluminum frames with carbon stays, fork, and seat post was that those had smooth rides. I thought they were smoother than the four all-steel bikes that I rode.

Of course it also depends upon how the frame was tuned. If for performance, then it would likely be more rigid and thus less smooth.

That's what leads me back to the Gunnar Rock Tour, which I have been told by Richard Schwinn, was tuned for longer distance riding comfort, in both its geometry and ride. It's design is closer to a Rivendell'ish riding philosophy. I think this frame is almost spot-on what I'm looking for. But even in a standard color, stock frame w/o fork, it's $975!!

Adding options to hand made frames vs. building them in as standard equipment in a production environment are very different things. You could probably find a qualified welder to add fender and rack eyelets to the Ala Carte frame for that or less.
My doubts about the suitability of the Moto Rapido are based more on the durability of a race designed lightweight Scandium frame with its super thin wall tubing. A test ride won't tell you that. I have no doubt that it would be comfortable.

The Ala Carte complete would be very hard to beat for value. Buying components of that quality to build up a Nashbar frame would likely cost more.

I agree. My preliminary estimate for a Nashbar 853 build is very close to the cost of the Ala Carte complete. Thus the attractiveness of the Salsa option.

Stapfam, I've ridden several Giant bikes, and frankly, haven't fallen for any.

Only one left on my "consideration" list is the XTC Alliance. If I had the suspension fork replaced by a rigid carbon fork, then it's in the neighborhood of what I'm thinking about. I'd have to change out some of the minor parts, like the Shimano clipless pedals & the fat tires, but I'm sure my LBS would do these at no cost at the time of sale.

FWIW, I can comment on Giant: my bike is a 3-year old Rainier (U.S. 2004.5 model/Canadian 2005), which I've modified/upgraded over time, and which I use pretty much exactly in the way you're contemplating. I've yet to change out the stock (and heavy, though functional) susp. fork, but that's this Spring's project -- to a rigid (White Bros. or Bontrager) carbon disc fork. I've been putting between 4 and 5,000 kms. on mine each of the past three seasons, using it as a 'daily driver' commuter and for fitness/distance rides. Although I have a very good wheelset on it, with v. good 1.5" folding road tires, now, I've never noticed any particular harshness to the (all alu.) frame. I do use a carbon seatpost, and a saddle w/titanium rails, and to my mind these things cumulatively (correct fit, wheel/tire quality, seatpost and saddle quality) make more difference to 'ride' than does frame material, PROVIDED the frame is at least 'very good' to begin with (i.e. butted/tapered etc., and not plain-gauge).

I've ridden three bikes equipped with the Bontrager Elite carbon disc fork, the one with the round carbon tubes. Took them over several bumps, gravel, broken pavement, metal drainage grills, and it handled them all very nicely. I really like that fork.

It is standard on the Gary Fisher Mendota bike, which is the bike I would get if I wanted an aluminum frame. It is also found on the LeMond Poprad Disc cyclo bike.

Other options out there are to find special deals on hardtail mountain bikes that have comfortable geometries. Scanning lists like this one from Jenson USA:
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/sub/153-Hardtail.aspx

A frame like the one on the 2006 Jamis Dakota Elite, aluminum but with carbon seat stays. The top tube is a bit on the long side, but not terribly. A pretty good deal at close to $700 off.

OK, I've done some more pricing comparisons.

Salsa Ala Carte vs Gary Fisher Mendota

- Put the Bontrager Switchblade carbon disc fork on both.
- Same saddle
- equivalent tires
- slight edge to Salsa on wheels, but nothing that would make any difference to me.
- Mountain bike crankset of equivalent quality to hybrid 48/36/26 crankset on Mendota

The Salsa would have a small edge in the following components
SRAM X.9 vs SRAM X.7
Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes vs Avid BB5

Mendota has a carbon seat post vs the alloy post on the Salsa

All of these add up to give a small edge to the Salsa

Now we come to the major difference ... the frame

Salsa frame uses OX Platinum steel in the main triangle, standard 4130 cro-moly on stays

Mendota frame is Fisher's higher grade aluminum.

Overall "fit" to the frame's geometry looks to be a bit better on the Mendota, unless I could find an '07 Ala Carte 17".

Final price difference is approx $700-$750 higher for the Salsa - Final cost of around $1750 vs $1000.

For the most part, the small differences in the derailleurs, brakes, etc., would make little to no difference in my usage.

So how much is a mostly OX steel frame worth over aluminum frame, with the same fork and essentially the same wheels & tires? I suspect the ride difference would be slight.

(note my evil practical side is influencing me ... which it always does if I give it enough time)

OK, I've done some more pricing comparisons.

Salsa Ala Carte vs Gary Fisher Mendota

- Put the Bontrager Switchblade carbon disc fork on both.
- Same saddle
- equivalent tires
- slight edge to Salsa on wheels, but nothing that would make any difference to me.
- Mountain bike crankset of equivalent quality to hybrid 48/36/26 crankset on Mendota

The Salsa would have a small edge in the following components
SRAM X.9 vs SRAM X.7
Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes vs Avid BB5

Mendota has a carbon seat post vs the alloy post on the Salsa

All of these add up to give a small edge to the Salsa

Now we come to the major difference ... the frame

Salsa frame uses OX Platinum steel in the main triangle, standard 4130 cro-moly on stays

Mendota frame is Fisher's higher grade aluminum.

Overall "fit" to the frame's geometry looks to be a bit better on the Mendota, unless I could find an '07 Ala Carte 17".

Final price difference is approx $700-$750 higher for the Salsa - Final cost of around $1750 vs $1000.

For the most part, the small differences in the derailleurs, brakes, etc., would make little to no difference in my usage.

So how much is a mostly OX steel frame worth over aluminum frame, with the same fork and essentially the same wheels & tires? I suspect the ride difference would be slight.

(note my evil practical side is influencing me ... which it always does if I give it enough time)

You might be over thinking it.

I think that it's just like picking a presidential candidate. You select the one that you want based totally on image, then fish around for an objective reason to justify your choice.

Tough call. That's a big difference in price. I think the Salsa has a bigger edge in quality of frame and components than you suggest, especially the wheels, but is it $700 better? I don't know. If the Mendota had carbon seat stays, it would be easier to choose. I would expect the steel Salsa frame to be significantly smoother than a full aluminum frame over sharp jolts. Possibly a bigger difference than the carbon fork vs. the OX Platinum steel fork. And of course, keeping the stock fork on the Salsa would make the cost difference smaller.

Only comparing test rides would tell you for sure. Is there a stocking Salsa dealer near you?

I think that it's just like picking a presidential candidate.


Oh no! Don't say that!

I'm much worse when it comes to that.

Only comparing test rides would tell you for sure. Is there a stocking Salsa dealer near you?

Nope. Closest one is about 250 miles away.

One factor that is influencing me is that I did once ride the Mendota and a 2007 Jamis Coda Elite (631 cro-moly steel with carbon fork) on the same day and the Mendota had a noticeably smoother ride. The Jamis had 700x28 tires vs the Mendota's 700x32, which made a difference for sure, but the 28mm's on the Jamis are known for being smooth riding and I had them at 100 psi.

OTOH, my rides on a Gunnar Rock Hound, with steel fork, were very smooth.

Tough call. That's a big difference in price. I think the Salsa has a bigger edge in quality of frame and components than you suggest, especially the wheels, but is it $700 better? I don't know.

There may be a greater difference on the wheels than I portrayed, but I happen to like the wheelset on the Mendota. Well, except for them having Presta valves. I know they are a bit heavy and they are just Bontragers with a list of $280/set. But I've ridden bikes with them on several occasions and liked them. And I know two guys who raced them in cyclo races and they worked great for them.

They are same wheels as found on the $1650 Lemond Poprad Disc cyclo bike. And on the $1700 Trek Portland.

Your preferences are what counts in choosing your bike. I just don't like low spoke count wheels. XT hubs with Salsa rims and 32 DT db spokes would be a big plus for me. That's the kind of wheel I would build as an upgrade. Trek and others are putting wheels on most of their road and cyclocross bikes that I would automatically replace. They may be plenty strong, but I wouldn't trust them.

Tom. Have you contemplated building your own from a bare frame?

At this point you have reams of data about size and fit and prefered components. Your more than halfway there.

maddmaxx, where have you been in this thread? Building from a bare frame is where I started in post #1 and where much of the discussion has focused.

Your preferences are what counts in choosing your bike. I just don't like low spoke count wheels. XT hubs with Salsa rims and 32 DT db spokes would be a big plus for me. That's the kind of wheel I would build as an upgrade. Trek and others are putting wheels on most of their road and cyclocross bikes that I would automatically replace. They may be plenty strong, but I wouldn't trust them.

I know of where you speak. I pursued this very issue with both the owner and a mechanic at the LBS selling the Mendota last fall. Both of these guys are straight shooters and have criticized some of their own bikes to me in the past. I've been a customer of that store for 15+ years.

They told me that these particular 24-spoke (blade spokes) wheels have been nigh bulletproof for them. They never need trued, they never fail. The owner recommends them to 300 pound riders (I'm 210) because he is so confident that he won't have to deal with warranty or service issues.

He wasn't claiming that they were the lightest, highest performance wheels at all. But he looked me right in the eyes and stated that he was 100% confident that I would never have a problem with these wheels. He was very surprised that they are included on the $969 Mendota, as they aren't found on any other sub-$1500 Trek.

I agree that the wheels on the complete Ala Carte bike are better, but I'm unsure if they are just more overkill over a wheel that is already good enough.

maddmaxx, where have you been in this thread? Building from a bare frame is where I started in post #1 and where much of the discussion has focused.

Oops........my mind wandered there.........I was contemplating trivets! :)

Tom. Have you contemplated building your own from a bare frame?


Going back to this ... of course there will be little "building" on my part. I'm not going to assemble a bike. I might pay my LBS to do it from a bag of parts.

I am putting together a list of parts, pricing what I could get them for from eBay and on-line stores.

One LBS told me that if I purchased the frame & all of the parts from them, that they would build the bike for free.

Another one told me that if I purchased a Gunnar frame through them, and brought in all of the rest of the parts, they would build it for $100. I could have them order the Salsa frame too, if I went that route, as Salsa will ship through any dealer.

So far the second option looks cheaper, because the prices that LBS#1 quoted me on parts were extremely high, most of them about 2X what I would pay off of eBay. For example for SRAM X.9 RD, FD, and Twistshifters, they quoted me $300. I can get those for about $150.

I want to come up with a complete price for a Gunnar Rock Tour before I make a decision. The frame & a carbon fork would set me back about $1250 right out of the gate. That's one reason why I'm stepping back to reconsider the Gary Fisher Mendota bike, which is $969 complete with the same fork that I would be using on the Gunnar. And if I had the LBS upgrade the Mendota X.5/X.7 group to X.9, it would probably add about $100 to the Mendota, making it $1069 with the same fork and group set as I would have on the Gunnar.

I would rather be riding on the Gunnar, but at some point one has to look at it and decide if that difference is worth paying another grand.

Part of the potential for saving money is to treat the build as a project. Get your lists of parts in order including alternates. Have solid price estimates attached along with where those prices are from and then shop like crazy, buying parts when and where they come in under your estimates.

For example, you may have the best price on parts from XYZ but in another month or so, XYZ will have its traditional spring sale. As long as XYZ doesn't raise the price of your parts for the weekend of the sale then you will do well to wait. (There are shops in this business that do just that to improve their performance).

Option 2 is to price the same parts as take-offs (from a bike breaker who parts out complete bikes) from some of the more reputable Ebay houses. (Or Jenson USA who are very good for take-offs).

Option 3 is to price last years parts instead of this years although I suspect that you have already done this with the X.9 stuff based on your price. I am presently awaiting my brand new PG980 cassette from Cambria at """"34.95""""" :D because it is a new 2006 piece. In this case I have been looking at several high end SRAM cassettes for quite a while on Ebay and through several IBS's. When I saw this price I knew how much lower it was that all other options.

Once the box is full then you can negotiate with the LBS for the build.


What I ment to say in the earlier post is why don't "you" try the build yourself. If you have a problem or a difficult piece of the puzzel to do, the LBS will still be there to perform that task. This looks like one of those once in a lifetime (yea right I know the N+1 rule) builds and you can make it completely yours.

Option 4 is to look into buying a "build kit" as opposed to each individual component. These can be simply the major drivetrain components or a complete "everything but the frame" kit. Several of the parts distributors that work with your LBS offer various kits at a significant savings compared to individual components. Most allow a certain number of deletions or variances from the standard kit.

Then again, other than saddle, tires and maybe a crankset swap, I would think the Salsa Ala Carte complete bike would have pretty close to what you are wanting at a price I don't think you could beat. You could ride it with the steel fork and change to the cabon fork later, if you still wanted to.

Then again, other than saddle, tires and maybe a crankset swap, I would think the Salsa Ala Carte complete bike would have pretty close to what you are wanting at a price I don't think you could beat. You could ride it with the steel fork and change to the cabon fork later, if you still wanted to.

I'm not going to argue with this, as it is pretty much my stated position from post #4 in this thread.

What I ment to say in the earlier post is why don't "you" try the build yourself. If you have a problem or a difficult piece of the puzzel to do, the LBS will still be there to perform that task. This looks like one of those once in a lifetime (yea right I know the N+1 rule) builds and you can make it completely yours.

Me building the bike is an option that is off the table. Let's say I go with the Gunnar and assemble $2000 of parts. I can fight my way through installing part after part, adjusting each one, readjusting after the next step. Who knows how long it would take and what I would hack up. While I don't mind doing some simple things, I don't even enjoy doing some of this stuff ... like installing derailleurs, running cables, adjusting chain length, installing brakes. My LBS will assemble and tune all of them for $100. To me that sounds like a great deal!

Of all of the tempting aspects of which bike to purchase, and constructing a build kit of good deals on parts, I feel no temptation at all to build it myself.

I'm leaving that part of this process to DG!

My primary concern about the Salsa is its geometry. I know the 17.5" Mendota fits me well. The 17.5" Rock Tour seems to be very good. The 2007 Salsa 17" frame looks good. But of their '08 models, I'd have to go with their 16" frame, as the top tube on the 18" is way too long. I'd have to ride it with a lot of seat post exposed and I'm concerned that I would have a more difficult time getting the correct height on the handlebars.

I know the Mendota is fine, but it has a longer headtube than the other two. If I go the Rock Tour route, I would have them cut the steerer tube extra long, so that I could play around with it for a while and could have it re-cut later once I found where I wanted to be. On the 16" Ala Carte complete bike, the steerer tube is pre-cut and it has a shorter headtube. I don't want to drop $1500 on a bike and then have to use a stem extender.

Thus I have reservations about ordering one, sight unseen. May have to see where my travels take me in coming months and plot those against Salsa stocking dealers.

You might want to press the LBS about offering you a good deal on a build kit they can get from someone like Hawley (http://www.hawleyusa.com/Webstore/onlinecatalog.aspx). If they build many custom bikes, they should know all about where to get the best deals. If you are buying a frame and having them do the build, maybe they can cut you some slack on the build kit markup.

I've started building my build kit ... using the JensonUSA site, as they have customizable build kits that you can tweak, save, and print. Prices aren't too bad, but that is secondary right now.

My present kit contains many of the parts mentioned before in this thread: Avid BB7 disc brakes, SRAM X.9 RD & FD, SRAM X.0 twistshifter, SRAM PG950 11-26 cassette - didn't go with 11-32/34 because I'm leaning toward a MTB crankset of 44/32/22. Don't need a 32t in the back when I have a 22t in the front.

I already own stems, handlebars, saddles. Will probably go for a carbon seat post, more for vibration damping than weight savings.

Haven't decided on the crankset yet. It doesn't have to be a high end crank, I won't be pushing it that hard. Considering the new Shimano LX or going with any year of XT. There are also FSA options and Jenson has some Race Face's on closeouts. I've seen a lot of positive reviews of both the Race Faces and FSA cranks, but the safe choice seems to be Shimano.

Biggest area of indecision is the wheelset. I'm not hard on wheels. In fact, I've never had a wheel repair of any kind, not even a truing. My '87 Bridgestone still has the original wheels, spokes, etc., and has never be trued (and it is true). OTOH, I don't want to get something like a Gunnar and then put on crap wheels.

So I'm looking for advice on 26" wheelsets, and am open to suggestions on the cranksets too. I could follow the example of the Salsa Ala Carte and go with 32h XT wheels. For example, these:
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/WH707A23-Shimano+Xt+Discrhyno+Lite+Xl+Wheelset.aspx

Or better yet, these:
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/WH403A02-Shimano+Xt+Disc++Mavic+717+26+Wheel.aspx
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/WH310A01-Shimano+Xt++Wtb+Laserdisc+Trail+Wheel.aspx

Or lighter weight, 24 spoke wheels like these:
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/WH402A05-Mavic+Crossride+Disc+Wheelset.aspx

Of all of these, I guess I'm leaning toward the XT/Mavic 717 set.

The crankset I have targeted for myself this year is the Truvativ Firex team with external bottom bracket cups. See it at pricepoint.

Carbon seatposts have always been a problem for me as they tend to be slippery and to slide down. One gets nervous about overtightening the bolt and then............and then..............they get scratched. Ooooooo a scratch in my CF.......will I die?

I just avoid the whole thing and stick with an aluminium seatpost.

The wheelset of the year for last year for me were the Mavic Crossrides at the unbelievable closeout price of $150 (far cheaper than I can build my own) free shipping from Jensen. They were however the previous years model with rim brake rims on disk hubs. After a year of use they have held up perfectly. I don't know how aero the bladed spokes are but Squirrels tremble at their approach.

The Mavic Crossrides were on my link above as the lighter weight 24 spoke wheelset. I think they would work, although many recommend a 32 spoke wheel.

I have a Truvativ Stylo crankset in my present build set, it has the external GXP bearing cups. I don't know why I didn't mention it when I was writing about cranksets. I looked at the Firex, but all they had at Jenson was 175mm and I need 170mm (or 165mm). So those are on my consideration list.

The Mavic Crossrides were on my link above as the lighter weight 24 spoke wheelset. I think they would work, although many recommend a 32 spoke wheel.

I have a Truvativ Stylo crankset in my present build set, it has the external GXP bearing cups. I don't know why I didn't mention it when I was writing about cranksets. I looked at the Firex, but all they had at Jenson was 175mm and I need 170mm (or 165mm). So those are on my consideration list.

Do not worry about the Mavic Crossrides. I bought a set 8? years ago. and they are my wheel of choice on the Bianchi. Have to admit that I had a problem with them in that the freehub went too free after a particularly wet ride Not after but during. Not enjoyable haveing a freehub that turns without engaging all the time.

Then I put them at the back of the Garage to rust up. 2 years later and I took them to the LBS. New bearings and new pawls and they are still being used. They have taken every rock and Downhill on the Hills that I can throw at them and All I have done is to get them retrued every year or so.

The crossrides appear to be brutally strong even though low spoke count (I know, I was worried about that also)

Once you've gotton your tongue back in your mouth after the first 5 minutes of looking at the way the spokes are attached at the hub (looks much more impressive in person) you may begin to wonder about why we are still using elbowed spokes at all.

Well, right now, using Jenson and Performance together, using the lower price of the two, I'm up to:

Gunnar frame: $975
Carbon fork: $275
Components: $1000

And that's not including the saddle, stem, or handlebar that I've already got.

Geez Louise, that's $2250 plus $100 for assembly for $2350. Will have to compile an eBay special list next.

But it is a very nice bike.

I guess $2350 for the Gunnar option is in line with paying $1470 for the Salsa Ala Carte bike. That's a $880 difference. The Salsa frame & cro-mo fork sells for $550, the Gunnar w/carbon fork is $1250. So that explains $700 of the $880 difference. The rest of the difference is due to choices I made in the components.

The Salsa bumps up to $1800 if I upgrade it to the same carbon fork, seatpost, tires, and shifters.

And then there is the sub-$1100 Gary Fisher Mendota option.

Take a look at Price Point

1. Firex 3.3 170mm $109
2. X.9 twist shifters and RD combo $120
3. Avid BB7 front or rear $50 each
4. Avid Speed Dial 7 levers $22 each
5. Mavic Crossride UB set $200

All are 2007 models.

Sorry all others, please ignore this advertisement

Wow! Just constructed my entire set on Price Point and it is $250 less than Jenson!

Wow! Just constructed my entire set on Price Point and it is $250 less than Jenson!

Both are quality internet bike shops. On any given day you will do well at either. This is what I ment though about having a list..........checking it twice...........;) and then waiting while you shop a little more. Good buys await those who are patient.

Price Point has the Shimano XT hub / Mavic 717 wheelset at essentially the same price as the Mavic Crossride Disc set, whereas on Jenson the XT/717 set is $100 more.

Given the same price, wouldn't you consider the XT/717 the better way to go?

Your call, one is the more traditional way to go, the other suits my mechanic fancy. I did however score the crossrides at 50 less than these however and I would retrue either set right out of the box.

My head says that the way you are going, the XT/717 should be your choice.