Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - New Keirin frame brand - what options do you want?

Hi guys. I am just about to start taking orders for a new hand-built frame company in Kansai, Japan, and before I finalise the options for custom frames, I wanted some feedback from you guys......basically what options do you want to see?
So far the options are roughly as follow....and please just add any options/suggestions to this thread. Thanks!

-Frames - Keirin geometry/Keirin geometry w/toe clip clearance/Pursuit style with 650 fork.
- Seat tube and top tube length.
-Forks - 650c/700c, sloping crown w/aero tubes, flat crown w/round tubes. 35mm offset.

-High or Low BB - custom

-Fastback or Classic style seat stay joint.

-Any colour you can think of, including options of 2 or 3 colour, either masked or faded.

-Metal flake, in either rainbow, silver, gold, blue, red, green, and in both large or small sizes.

-Different colour sticker kits to suit the paint job, including prism, chrome silver, chrome gold. No stickers is another option.

-All chrome frames *no paint*....chrome/stickers/clear.

-Only 27.2 seat tube size.

-Hatta NJS Swan headset, no other options.

-Option of Hatta R9400 NJS or Sugino 75 BB.....I will also offer a Dura Ace octalink NJS option.

-Drilled front, drilled rear, no drillings, or both drilled for brakes.

-Tange no.1, Kaisei 4130, Kaisei 8630R, Columbus Spirit Keirin options. (i believe some Reynolds is available too, but not 100% sure)

whats the price looking like on these?
those options look sweet.

Kaisei 8630 feels super nice... 11.4 approved too.

Then again, Columbus Spirit is supposed to be a treat too.

The options look good to me (I'm not too picky), but some questions:
Who's making the frames?
How much are they?
Is this a group buy, as in lower-than-usual pricing, etc?
How many frames are you making and what's the wait time to get one?

They will be pretty expensive. The new brand is OCEAN, which is the old VIVALO head frame builder, minus 3 of his old staff, and plus 2 new staff. Looking to get NJS cert in 3 years time. I am looking forward to finishing the website in the coming weeks, which will include an in depth factory tour photo journal.
I expect $940 retail price, with 8630 $95 upcharge, Spirit Keirin Columbus $195 upcharge.
For a Japanese Keirin frame builder, the price is actually very good, considering Bridgestone and Panasonic (2 of the cheapest builders in Japan) charge between 125000 and 14000YEN for a custom frame. I am not referring to the retail POS frames, which at base price are not true custom frames.
I have just ordered my own frame, and 3 customer frames, so will have photos after the 2 week turnaround.....

For what it is worth, Samson is the most expensive frame in Japan, usually around 180000YEN, but often chrome under paint and columbus tubing is standard.

Possibility of a non custom "average guy" frame out of the operation?

I guess a group buy could be organised, although I am not expecting a large amount of orders to come from outside of Japan, since I see that members on here are usually looking for pretty cheap options.
I get a lot of guys emailing me through my blog looking for frames (too many requests for me to fill) so these frames will be a good option, and give people an opportunity to have a frame custom built, in the same style that Keirin Pro Riders have.

KMART - I am not having these made as stock frames, but rather as custom order only. Turnaround should be about 2 weeks, plus shipping of 5 days with EMS courier from Osaka, Japan.
I may keep 2 or 3 frames in stock in popular sizes like 56/57cm but generally it will be all about the custom order experience.

i'm not in the market for a frame at this time, but here is my feedback:

- pursuit style sloping TT, but 700c wheels (like certain khs aero tracks)
- sloping fork crown, aero tubes (eg. 3rensho super record aero)
- colours/decals depend...
- drilled fork, undrilled bridge
- kaisei tubing with optional columbus spirit keirin

i think an all chrome frame would be nice, or a solid colour with chrome fork tips and stays. if i were ordering a custom frame, i would want a say in the design and placement of the decals— which might mean that a decal sheet were supplied with the frame and i'd put them on myself.

Thanks CHASE....

Clear coat will go over decals, and it is not an easy process, so will usually be left to Kusaka San. An option will be to have the stickers supplied separately on a sheet, if a customer really wants that.

The options I listed on the first post of this thread are all definite custom options, I am just looking for additional suggested options.
Of the feedback list you typed above, all options are available, including sloping tube, with 700C wheels.....

They will be pretty expensive. [...]
I expect $940 retail price, with 8630 $95 upcharge, Spirit Keirin Columbus $195 upcharge.


Do you know what the spec differences are between the Ocean frames in the other thread (72,000 yen~ / $675) and the stock options you mentioned for these frames (100,000 yen / $940)?

The 'new' Vivalo frames were supposed bar-spinnable street trackers if I'm not mistaken. Besides the tubing options, do you think the other choices you mentioned for these will be included or extra?

The 'stock' Ocean frames seem to only be listed up to 570cm....

no drilling

reallly, no drilling, if they can coin out for that bike they can get mountable brakes for off the track

Holman, no drilling is an option if you want it. Read the first post.

If I'm gonna shell out that kind of money, I should be able to get it drilled if I want.

Not saying I'm going to shell out the money ... just hypothetical.

It wouldn't really fit the whole NJS thing, but a 1 1/8" threadless steerer sure would be nice...

It wouldn't really fit the whole NJS thing, but a 1 1/8" threadless steerer sure would be nice...

-1

It wouldn't really fit the whole NJS thing, but a 1 1/8" threadless steerer sure would be nice...

if the builder made the frames with a 1" headtube, then the buyer could have the option of a threaded or nonthreaded fork. that would satisfy several markets.

me, if i were buying a steel track bike, i'd want it threadless.

-1

Somehow I think we're coming at this from two different directions...

1 1/8" threadless is pretty much never going to happen with this kind of frame, but the threadless option at least would be nice.

Sorry. I guess i just dispise threadless so much. I love it for BMX but have never seen much use for it on my fixed gear road bike.
Not to mention threadless dont look classy. :)
As long as its an option and not what these all turn out to be, im fine.
I dont know about most of the people in this thread but im one of the people who are actually planning to buy one of these frames...so i do care what they end up being. :)

Well, threadless is better if you plan on riding on the track...

I think it just takes getting used to looking at. I used to think Pista Concepts, threadless stems and aero/disk wheels looked weird and unappealing. Now I appreciate them a little more.

Theyre def a stiffer set up
I guess i just like the classic look of threaded stems.
The frame will be for my wife and itll be ridden only on the street.

Yes DEATHHARE, these are Keirin style frames, so there is no chance of anything other than 1 inch threaded.

Nate. I am sure that 72000 is impossible for Keirin hand built custom frame....can you point my towards that thread please?
They may have been run-out model Vivalo frames, when Kusaka had a bunch of frames left from Keirin pro who no longer needed them post NJS. He was going to close shop, since he had 31 years behind him in the Keirin game. Since talking with a new partner, a new staff member, and myself, the OCEAN brand was started.......I am not sure if that is what you are referring to....

hey--- i was talking about the 'track bikes in tokyo' thread. DH posted up this link (http://www.handcsports.com/acce_others_pista_vivalo_oder.htm) and another poster said he knew them.

sticker-wise, it's vivalo, but they are calling them 'city pista' and have set sizes, so it seems like something that was future-oriented. are they (ocean) going to have stock frames like this as well, or only the custom stuff you mentioned above?

Ive been looking into getting a funny bike recently and this seems like a pretty nice option. I know I will have to save a bit more but Id be into going for one of these frames.

Thanks for the link Nate. I just saw that last week, courtesy of DeathHare.
I talked to Kusaka and Yoh and they said they were the excess Keirin frames from late 07.....right now there is no plan to do a stock frame. OCEAN want to offer something special, so custom seemed to be the way to go. For stock frames Panasonic seem to have it locked down for price.

I think it will be interesting to see if other builders start offering this type of product, given this Ocean business doing well. So Parkerlewis, is this price including the headset and BB?

- pursuit style sloping TT

lol u dork

I think it will be interesting to see if other builders start offering this type of product, given this Ocean business doing well.

I cant see why they would.
Most of them already have more business than they can handle.

If the demand is there, you don't think builders will want to grab a piece of that market?

If the demand is there, you don't think builders will want to grab a piece of that market?

What demand/market is there for $920 + frames that is so big they would want to jump on??? These are frames usually built by 1 or 2 guys only and not mass produced. Places like Nagasawa have a 6 month wait.

If the demand is there, you don't think builders will want to grab a piece of that market?

I honestly dont think they care at all.

What demand/market is there for $920 + frames that is so big they would want to jump on??? These are frames usually built by 1 or 2 guys only and not mass produced. Places like Nagasawa have a 6 month wait.

Well, if they started doing larger sizes, I'm sure a decent amount of guys that previously couldn't get a keirin frame because they ride above a 56 would now be happy to get a custom, new frame at the same price that they'd otherwise have to pay when a used frame that big makes it to eBay / keirin culture every now and then.

If you ask me, i think that the options that kalavinka offers on their website represent a pretty good set of choices. For example i like that they let you pick between different fork crown lugs. they have standard flat top, aero and then donut which doesnt really have a lug. Depending on the look you want you could go classic with the flat top, or ultra clean looking with the donut fork.

http://www.kalavinka-bikes.com/image/track/track_2007.jpg

The only things that i dont see on your post that i might want are more extensive lug options. Like cutouts, chromed, styles

Most of the other things i would want are already listed like prism decals, seatback options (aero, fast back, regular), columbus tubing.

I think that youve got a great idea selling quality custom steel frames to the US for a reasonable price. You might see an order from me in the near future when you guys open up for business.

That thing you call a "donut", we call a "unicrown" and it's almost universally hated, it seems like. Bianchi Pista status.

i agree, the one on the pista looks ugly but its lower quality and you can see the steerer tube. i think that the one pictured looks good. heres a pic of the entire bike, i like the more minimal look of the unicrown.

http://www.kalavinka-bikes.com/image/track/track_2001.jpg

that is ugly
yes better than the pista or pake fork
but if i was getting a kalavinka i would never get that fork option
flat crown and aero are more sexieeeeeeerrrrrrr

If that Kalavinka had been filet brazed, the fork would look aces.

The donut is badass.

i appreciate the attention paid to a unicrown fork, since so many of them are really unattractive. it's not my favourite style but i could see how it could look nice.

I cannot remember what they are called (i can only speak to kusaka and yoh in japanese), but there is another crown available, which was popular a long time ago that has windows so you can see right through it, very minimal, and ornate.
You guys probably know the ones I mean. I lot of Katakura frames have them.
I do not think that unicrown would be an option, to be honest.

I cannot remember what they are called (i can only speak to kusaka and yoh in japanese), but there is another crown available, which was popular a long time ago that has windows so you can see right through it, very minimal, and ornate.
You guys probably know the ones I mean. I lot of Katakura frames have them.
I do not think that unicrown would be an option, to be honest.

Its called a double plate fork crown.
Like this...
http://www.kalavinka-bikes.com/picture/wonderland/2007111902.jpg

I cannot remember what they are called (i can only speak to kusaka and yoh in japanese), but there is another crown available, which was popular a long time ago that has windows so you can see right through it, very minimal, and ornate.
You guys probably know the ones I mean. I lot of Katakura frames have them.
I do not think that unicrown would be an option, to be honest.

Yea ive seen that crown on a bike my friend has from the 70's. Unicrown is sweet but i probably would get an aero lug with cutouts.

The fork crowns I was referring to...

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t216/familybrothers3/P1030680.jpg

Nice one Deathhare, beat me to it. Beautiful Kalavinka frame! Damn.

Only about 9 frames have been built so far, but I can take orders straight away, just that the website is a few weeks away still....
Here is one of the first frames. The customer wanted a straight fork that he could barspin with a 700C....it also has an indented seat tube, for fine clearance of the rear tyre. The rear bridge is raised....and there is additional clearance on the inside of the chainstays for a large street clincher tyre. Colorway has a bit of ATARI about it...
English name is for Japanese customers, exports will have KANJI on the top tube...

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t216/familybrothers3/P1030689.jpg
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t216/familybrothers3/P1030694.jpg
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t216/familybrothers3/P1030698.jpg
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t216/familybrothers3/P1030695.jpg
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t216/familybrothers3/P1030715.jpg

double plate is lookin kinda wack on that kalavinka

I will post pics of a 570 square Keirin geometry frame in a few days time.....

maybe this is abit early but how much would you estimate a pursuit frame with 75 BB and solid paint with rame. cost?

i guess the tubing is up in the air at this point

Nice! More pics. :)

that frame looks sweet, im down with that straight fork