Road Cycling - Aluminium, Ti, or Carbon

I was just on another BB and there was a debate about frame materials. The question was "Aluminum or carbon, which is better for a road bike." The consensus was by multiple form aluminum riders who were now on Giant composites or Trek 5200's that carbon was much, much superior.

Some said that the new Lemonds with a mixture of steel and carbon or some of the other bikes that are mixtures of aluminum and carbon are just as good.

So, what do people on this board think?

With my recent bump to my road bike fund, I am up into the 5200 arena and am definately considering carbon, and have elevated my Cannondale fave to the R2000, and added in the Ti Lemond Arivee and the Steel/Carbon Maillot Jeaune. All but the MJ, which is Dura-Ace, are all Ultrega and all are about the same price, right around 2500 - 3000 or so.

For that kind of money why not get a bespoke (made for you) bike from Dean or HH Racing Group or Waterford or one of the other U.S. custom builders? HHRG is only a couple of hours north of you (Media, PA) and you could get fitted in their shop. Why ride what others ride? Get your choice of color and components for $3000. Certainly as high quality as anything you are considering. Check them out on their websites. Good friend just purchased a steel Dean with carbon seatstays and fork and raves about its ride qualities. And I agree that nothing rides as well as steel. Most of the custom builders will build in Ti or aluminum as well as steel. Show your strong, all-American, rugged individualist streak by riding something the guy next to you doesn't have.

Seriously. Check them out. There are enough Treks, Giants, Litespeeds, etc., out there to go around. Dime-a-dozen.

I have had steel, aluminum, ti, and carbon fiber bikes. Given a choice (and the funds) I would either go with ti or carbon fiber. Both of these materials soak up "road buzz" to such a degree that you feel like you are floating. Currently I am riding the 5200 which is unbelievable. When I first bought it I was worried somewhat because of my weight, but this has not even been a factor up till now.
The only bike material I have owned in the past that I would not go for again is aluminum. To me it just gave to harsh a ride.

i agree with what paramount said, if you're thinking about going for Ti, or anything in the $3000 range, you should definitely thnk about going for a custom frame. Independent Fabrications is another good company to check out. their paint jobs can't be beat, and their Ti frames are seriously beautiful.

Get a Moots or Litespeed Ti bike, and you'll never have to worry again. The are the best quality bikes for reasonable money.

given the same dimensions, same fit and all that stuff, I would go with a carbon bike. I own a Ti and a Carbon bike as well as a steel and I think the Carbon is the best of both worlds, being light, smooth, and corrosion free, it's almost a toss up between Ti or carbon. Perhaps it is easier to make a sexy monocoque carbon frame than a welded Ti one? Dunno, but I just love my carbon bike..

Jay

custom is the way to go! I know trek, cannondale, litespeed and specialized have some pretty cool stuff, but they are still mass produced. Small builders can make you a bike that is truly custom. its hard to beat the weight of a trek carbon, but take a look at calfees. And speaking of weight, a litespeed is not that much lighter than modern steel bikes. :)

Thanks, all. I will definately take PS's advise and check out HHRG. I had not even considered Moots and had heard of but am not familiar with Calfees. That gives me something new to think about.

Thanks again.

I agree with PS, (Waterford) is simply the best way to go for that kind off cash. Dean also makes some great frames as mentioned as does IF as mentioned. IMHO it would be close to IF or Waterford but I would have to go Waterford.
I also agree that there are enough big name manufacturers out there now. There are better frame builders that can give you exactly what you want, instead of some mass market same as your next door neighbor bike.

Given that Ti & CF are destructive to our environment to produce & are non-recyclable, i'd stick with steel. If it's a new bike, made someplace that has pollution controls & labor laws.

Can you really get a whole ti BIKE, custom made, in the $3K range? Or is that the frame only we're talking about, then add another thousand or so for the group, seat, post, wheels etc? If so, go for it. If not, I'd say go with Litespeed. I have a Tuscany that I love and feels great, even after miles of chipseal roads.

Well, years ago, the notions of the differences of the various materials: carbon fiber, titanium, steel and aluminum made more sense.

However, the engineers have learned how to design around the limitations of all of the above materials. You can get an excellent frame made of any of the above.

Aluminum. Carbon fork.

If you're inclined to go with carbon and want a custom frame then Calfees are a pretty good choice. Craig Calfee is pretty good at keeping in touch with the Internet community from what I understand and has even been known to answer questions on the spot as well as participate in discussion in the various USENET neswsgroups although admittedly, I haven't seen him posting in quite a few years. I've heard nothing but good things about his frames. His Ti counterpart seems to be Mark Hickey of Habenaro Cycles who also participates in USENET discussions, seems quite accessable and offers custom Ti frames for a very reasonable price.

I myself ride a full carbon frame but it's not custom. It's made by Aegis who are one of the pioneers in carbon fibre bicycles. As for the "run of the mill" argument, I certainly have not seen that many Aegis around where I ride. Check out http://www.aegisbicycles.com/

Spending money on a custom frame can be the best money you've ever spent -- if you have unusual proportions that can't be accommodated by the geometries of frames made by manufacturers you'd normally consider.

But if you can get an equally perfect fit on a Litespeed or a Trek or whatever, then there has to be some other reason to go custom. Those reasons can certainly be valid -- aesthetics, relationship with the builder, an attractive value, whatever -- but most people aren't that hard to fit using standard geometries.

As to frame material, personally, as I try different bikes I continue to be unable to find differences that I can with certainty attribute to the frame material, with the exception of aluminum vs everything else (the Fuji Roubaix and Rubaix Pro are very close to the same bike except for the metal; the steel Pro is unmistakably less harsh). But even then, I've not ridden any high-end aluminum, and it's more than likely that in the $2000+ range, especially with the addition of carbon stays, the design would once again supercede the material in dertermining ride characteristics.

I do wonder if Lance's chainstay would have cracked during the Musette Bag Crash if it had been made of ti, though.

RichC

Hi,
the real question you should be asking is which bike will suit me best. If you get steel or Ti you can get a great ride and keep riding it for the next 20 or 30 years. It makes a huge difference whether you want to race, hang with fast crowd on group rides; or have a do-it-all bike. I do think you should try as many bikes as you can, and one of those ought to be a Litespeed Tuscany. Just as a passing comment, I tried a Gunnar for the first time the other day and thought it was an incredible ride for a bike that was hundreds under $2K. . There are so many wonderful bikes being made today that there are prob a hundred bikes out there that would keep you happy. Now that I think about it, perhaps you should think more in terms of having a stable rather than a horse. You could eventually have a go fast bike, a commuter,
a Mtn bike, a tourer, a......

I think that years ago when frames were mass produced in only whole sizes that
a custom frame was the way to go. I have rode all the materials and had many custom frames and really never felt a big difference as far as fit.
I now ride a Trek 5900 and it's been the best bike I have ever ridden.
I don't disagree with any of the advice here but i'm just giving you another angle to think about.
I think if I was to go for a custom frame today it would be a Seven or Spectrum.(TI) However, with the rapid change in technology coming out today and getting more for the dollar. I would not want to spend 3000 on a frame unless it gave me a great advanage. I feel that most frames today are pretty equal it's personal taste that is different. Best of luck with whatever you decide on.
Cheers..Enjoy...

Litespeed does custom frames too. Ask your dealer or email them from the link on www.litespeed.com

geez, a debate about the best material?? you may have noticed everyone has an opinion. and they're all right about what they think is the best frame material. me, i like carbon because it makes sense to me. in my mind, it provides the best balance of strength, stiffness, lightness and comfort we all want out of a bike. it's also got a high "cool" factor for me.

people will make compelling arguments for every material that comes along. put your butt on each one, ride them, and make up your own mind.

but pgreene, if they did that, then they wouldn't be able to start a debate on the internet about what the best frame material is...

but pgreene, if they did that, then they wouldn't be able to start a debate on the internet about what the best frame material is...


lol, good point.

Orbea does custom frames, too. Long lead time, but they're sweet.

I looked at Independent Fabrications and they were expensive, but I know that it might have been worth it. The thing is that you can find a bike that fits you off the shelf. Also, even custom bikes are built differently by different builders. You're still going to be on their interpretation of what fits you.

As for frame materials, with today's steel frames coming in a few grams heavier than their ti brethren, I don't get why ti is still voted as being that much better. It's too expensive, if you ask me, for what you get. Carbon always felt kind of dead to me. It muted the road as well as smoothing it out. That was on an OCLV bike about 7 years ago, but it's kept me away from carbon since. Aluminum bikes ride so much smoother now than they did just 5 years ago that it's incredible. Aluminum is fun to ride, really lively. But I'm a newly converted (on the road, at least) steel is real guy. My bike's as stiff in the bottom bracket as any I've ridden, but is crazy smooth on the rough roads and dirt roads around here. Plus, it's lighter than most bikes I looked at. Thing is, like saddle choice, everyone has a material that's right for them and not for everyone else. Makes it more fun. But, steel is real and I am right. :D

For inexpensive, custom ti bikes, check out Habanero.
you can get a custom geometry, Campy Record (the MOST expensive bike they have) for about $3500.

Habanero Cycles (http://www.habcycles.com/index.html)

I haven't ridden one, but I've heard from a few, that they are really nice bikes.

Hmm...a Steel IF Race or Sachs are damned sweet rides. With Aluminum (my personal favorite) you've got a ton of choices, top of my lists include the Colnago Dream (for me without carbon but if you're willing to put down serious cash the model with HP stays is art), Litespeed Antares, Specialized Tarmac or S-Works E5 (get the 03 the 02 had a few teething issues IMO), plus any of the custom builders. I should note I'd rather have a compact aluminum frame so I can get more use out of my carbon seat post. As for Ti and carbon...too rich and flashy for my blood, though I've never found carbon to be 'alive' enough. To each his own (I'm jealous)

ti, carbon, aluminum...what ever happened to scandium? ok, its mostly aluminum, but scandium was going to be the new black. what you think about this felt?
http://feltracing.com/2004_bikes/f15.html
:)

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions. The custom angle, Habanero, et al, definately give me something to think about.

I am, however, quite conservative (that will be a shock to some like PS) and don't like to venture to far off the beaten track. One of the benefits of buying one of the big brand names is customer service. If I buy a Trek, Cannondale, or Lemond from my LBS, I know them and trust them, and they know me and how I ride and how I have punished my current bike. If something goes wrong, then I have them to act as intermediary between me and the warranty people. Given the track record of Trek, and the majority of suggestions on carbon, the 5200 has joined the Cannondale R2000 at the top of my list, with the Steel/Carbon hybrid Zurich a very close second.

Of course, I am going to talk to my LBS about Calfees, etc., and having them build a custom for me. The Calfees Luna frame is about $1300 and the Tetra is about $1900. A Dura-Ace package from Colorado Cyclist is $2000, so I would be breaking my $3000 budget, but an Ultrega package is around $1000. If I go custom, I would want Dura-Ace 10 speed or the highe end Campy. And that doesn't count for a fork, about $500 at least for a decent one, and then the cost of having it built.

Hummmm...
:confused:

a friend of mine has a calfee and craig has gone by his house twice! now that is service!! But the 3k budget is a limiting factor...and you will get lots of bang for your buck with trek and cannondale.

Unless you are oddly sized or shaped custom offers no benefit except pre race snobbery. I ride a 5200 and love it-not only is it light enough to climb like a scared rabbit, but i consistenly pass people heavier than me on the descents too. Plus it's American made! you won't regret it.

material is irrelevant.
a good designer can manipulate any of the mentioned materials to build a great bike.
my view on material is the following:

Which material will allow the bike to:

be repairable,..........................[Ti, Steel]
allow a comfortable design.........[Ti, steel, CF and AL]
reasonably light weight..............[CF, AL, Ti and steel]
have real world cost.................[CF, AL, Ti, Steel]

as can be seen the last 3 factors are really irrelevant because all recognised bike frame materials can provide that.

So repairability becomes a driver.

I choose Ti.

Unless you are oddly sized or shaped custom offers no benefit except pre race snobbery. I ride a 5200 and love it-not only is it light enough to climb like a scared rabbit, but i consistenly pass people heavier than me on the descents too. Plus it's American made! you won't regret it.

I completely agree. I also ride a 5200 and it is the sweetest ride I have ever tried. I played around with many others before buying the 5200 including Litespeeds, Cannondales, Specialized, Klein, etc. For me (and it is VERY subjective) the 5200 smoked them all in feel, performance and looks.

Allan

Get a Moots or Litespeed Ti bike, and you'll never have to worry again. The are the best quality bikes for reasonable money.

You can get a handmade Dean Titanium frame which is just as good as Moots or Litespeed, the money you will save on the Dean frame (around $1000) will buy some very nice parts.

So repairability becomes a driver.

Just as a note, some CF can be repaired although I don't outright know of any road frames that can be repaired. My MTB being thermoplastic CF instead of thermoset can be repaired however.

I completely agree. I also ride a 5200 and it is the sweetest ride I have ever tried. I played around with many others before buying the 5200 including Litespeeds, Cannondales, Specialized, Klein, etc. For me (and it is VERY subjective) the 5200 smoked them all in feel, performance and looks.

Allan

The way I have been progressing through various budget levels, if I am very luck I may be near a 5500 by next May! At that level, of course, I hit the Cannondale R3000, the Lemond Maillot Jaune, and then a custom becomes more in line with my budget.

Darn, but bikes and stuff sure are expensive! I was checking out new winter riding clothing, and just winter bib, jersey, booties, and gloves were over $500! That's more than I paid for my current bike!

I like Ti with carbon Fork. My Wife rides a steel frame with carbon fork and loves it.